DfwRevolution
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Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:38 pm

While aviation related, this seems like much more of a political issue. Some snippets from the article:

Quote:
EDITORIAL: Guns on a plane
Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns

Tuesday, March 17, 2009

The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.

This looks like completely unnecessary harassment of the pilots. The 12,000 Federal Flight Deck Officers, the pilots who have been approved to carry guns, are reported to have the best behavior of any federal law enforcement agency. There are no cases where any of them has improperly brandished or used a gun. There are just a few cases where officers have improperly used their IDs.

Since Mr. Obama's election, pilots have told us that the approval process for letting pilots carry guns on planes slowed significantly. Last week the problem went from bad to worse. Federal Flight Deck Officers - the pilots who have been approved to carry guns - indicate that the approval process has stalled out.

Only anti-gun extremists and terrorist recruits are worried about armed pilots. So why is the Obama administration catering to this tiny lobby at the expense of public safety?

And the full article:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...bama-secretly-ends-program-that-l/

Seriously - who is against arming airline pilots? It's a brutally simple and effective means to safeguard the cockpit of an airplane. Safety fears have been completely unfounded, no one has been harmed by an FFDO in the program's history.

Do liberals just try and find ways to keep law abiding citizens from protecting themselves?
 
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yowza
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 pm

So what you're saying is that potential terrorists won't even have to bring their own guns to the party! Amazing. I think it would be prudent to keep some C4 and frag grenades on board too, you know just in case  Yeah sure

YOWza
 
searpqx
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:50 pm

Before going off half cocked (pun intended), perhaps finding a source with a few facts (vs. the obviously slanted rantings of a single editorial) would be useful?
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Confuscius
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:55 pm



Quoting Searpqx (Reply 2):
Before going off half cocked (pun intended), perhaps finding a source with a few facts (vs. the obviously slanted rantings of a single editorial) would be useful?

Guns and 2nd Amendment, the new GOP talking point because they don't have anything else other than tax cuts for the rich.
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mbmbos
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:05 am

Good. It was a bad idea in the first place.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:30 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
So what you're saying is that potential terrorists won't even have to bring their own guns to the party! Amazing. I think it would be prudent to keep some C4 and frag grenades on board too, you know just in case

Well I have to imagine that it would some effort to break down the cockpit door now since they're reinforced, and me thinks the pilots would keep the gun in the cockpit with them.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:57 am



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 4):
Good. It was a bad idea in the first place.

On what grounds?

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 5):

Well I have to imagine that it would some effort to break down the cockpit door now since they're reinforced,

Are you satisfied with a system that has no redundancy?

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 2):
Before going off half cocked (pun intended), perhaps finding a source with a few facts (vs. the obviously slanted rantings of a single editorial) would be useful?

Just because a nice, b.s.-laden White House Press Report isn't available doesn't mean it isn't a relevant talking point.
 
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:24 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
Just because a nice, b.s.-laden White House Press Report isn't available doesn't mean it isn't a relevant talking point.

True, especially if your main goal is to  stirthepot  . . .

I was thinking more along the lines of a straight forward report of what was changed, what is still available, etc., but hey, don't let facts get in the way of emotion, mud slinging and partisan bitching.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
lowrider
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:26 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 5):
Well I have to imagine that it would some effort to break down the cockpit door

Keep imagining that, if it makes you feel better.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.

[sarcasm] Great idea, because clearly pilots are the largest security threat. Did you know that 100% of hijacked planes had pilots on board? Who knows what they will do? Imagine if they ever were to gain control of the aircraft. At least we are safe from whatever they had in their shoes. [/sarcasm]
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:27 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 5):

Well I have to imagine that it would some effort to break down the cockpit door now since they're reinforced,

Are you satisfied with a system that has no redundancy?

You missread my post. My intention was that since it would take some time to break down the reinforced cockpit door, this time would be enough for the pilots to realize what was going on and be able to pull out their guns and ensure they're locked & loaded. The poster who quoted me believes that the terrorists would be able to raid the cockpit and just overpower the pilots and take the guns from them.
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NIKV69
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:13 am



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 4):
Good. It was a bad idea in the first place

Yea I know, we can't say war on terror and now I heard today we can't refer to terrorists as "terrorists". Nepalitano scares the living daylights out of me. We are going backwards and there is no stopping the Obama runway train. We don't need to harshly interrogate, don't need to wiretap, pilots don't need guns. Maybe Obama should take a look at El Al when it comes to airliner security, but then he would have to admit there is a threat. Something he seems to not want to do. Those votes from the codepinks are really beginning to cost us big time. Al Qaida has to be licking their lips at this point.
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yowza
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:23 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Maybe Obama should take a look at El Al when it comes to airliner security, but then he would have to admit there is a threat. Something he seems to not want to do.

Yeah Obama who inherited 1600 in the midst of a recession and a war on two fronts is the real bad guy here. Damn it he's been in office for almost 100 days and he hasn't fixed the US aviation scene or cured HIV yet. What a slacker...

YOWza
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:26 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
So what you're saying is that potential terrorists won't even have to bring their own guns to the party!

How would he know a gun is aboard? Out of a random selection of 100 aircraft, how many would have a gun in the cockpit? 5? 10? 20? You don't bet your operation on something that probably won't be there.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 9):
The poster who quoted me believes that the terrorists would be able to raid the cockpit and just overpower the pilots and take the guns from them.

Now that cockpit doors are locked in flight and are reinforced, AND following 9/11, no amount of blackmail, threatening hostages or whatever will convince a pilot to open the door to let a hijacker up front, that might be difficult.

In fact there aren't many situations where the gun would be used - only if the hijackers are all in the back of the plane (unlikely) or if they become insistant and try to pry open the door, in which case the pilot has plenty of time to be waiting for him.

One last point - there are few people in the world whose simple profession indicates that they are responsible. A commercial airline pilot must be of a disciplined mindset, and very familiar with the responsibility of hundreds of lives in his hands, and with the demands of making fast yet proper decisions. I would far more trust a pilot around me with a gun than just about anyone else (especially as he knows more than anyone the risks involved in firing a gun on an airplane) and most ESPECIALLY some Washington pinhead appointed by the pinhead-in-chief.
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yowza
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:59 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):

How would he know a gun is aboard? Out of a random selection of 100 aircraft, how many would have a gun in the cockpit? 5? 10? 20? You don't bet your operation on something that probably won't be there.

So if the guns are the end all fix for in the air security should they not be in ALL cockpits?

YOWza
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:04 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 13):
So if the guns are the end all fix for in the air security should they not be in ALL cockpits?

Firstly, who said it was the "end all fix"?

Secondly, by your logic, why bother having police officers? They can't be everywhere, and can't prevent all crimes from happening, so why bother?
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yowza
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:09 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Firstly, who said it was the "end all fix"?

By the sheer militancy of the proponents of the guns in the cockpit crowd that is the impression we are left with.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Secondly, by your logic, why bother having police officers? They can't be everywhere, and can't prevent all crimes from happening, so why bother?

Not quite. This is a situation of tools per deployment, not deployments within the paradigm of possibility so the correct parallel with the example you used would be to not give all cops guns. Understand?

YOWza

[Edited 2009-03-17 22:10:58]
 
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:24 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):

Seriously - who is against arming airline pilots?

I am.

Facts:
Holes in planes to date: 1
Holes in terrorists to date: 0
Terrorist attacks stopped by guns in cockpit: 0
Decrease in Al-Qaeda activity attributed to guns in cockpit: 0

I don't like guns on planes, PERIOD.
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Alias1024
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:37 am

The writer of this editorial is a MORON!!!

TSA has told ALPA they have no intentions of slowing down or stopping the program. Some of the funding for it has been shifted to increase oversight. As the program has grown, so have the required resources to maintain proper oversight of it. TSA is looking for ways to cover those shifted funds so that the program can continue full steam ahead.
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yowza
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:40 am



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 17):
TSA has told ALPA they have no intentions of slowing down or stopping the program. Some of the funding for it has been shifted to increase oversight.

Well it's good to see that nobody on the right bothered to actually research this before going on an Obama witch hunt.

Guns in the cockpit are a mistake.

YOWza
 
INNflight
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
It's a brutally simple and effective means to safeguard the cockpit of an airplane.

I agree, just in case some terrorist tries to break through the flight deck door with the plastic knife out of his business class meal.  

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Maybe Obama should take a look at El Al when it comes to airliner security, but then he would have to admit there is a threat.

Nick has a VERY good point here, the vast difference is that El Al has air marshalls on almost every single of their flights, so those armed people sit in the cabin, as normal passengers, carrying guns; not up front.

Those air marshals can take a potential threat out before he even gets through the front curtain, pilots can only wave their glock through the window to the outside.

[Edited 2009-03-18 00:57:54]
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PhilSquares
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:08 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
Seriously - who is against arming airline pilots? It's a brutally simple and effective means to safeguard the cockpit of an airplane. Safety fears have been completely unfounded, no one has been harmed by an FFDO in the program's history.

As an airline pilot, I am against the program. The idea of introducing a weapon in the aircraft is nothing but asking for trouble. The cockpit door reinforcement is sufficient to delay/prevent anyone from entering the cockpit. If it's not enough, then let's do away with the reinforcement and arm all pilots. The simple fact is, the cockpit door will not be opened under any circumstances. I can get the aircraft on the ground in less time than it would take to break the door down.

The simple fact is the US aviation security program is a joke. As a pilot, I see it all the time. There are many other countries that have a more aggressive, less intrusive security program. And the fact is, it's much more effective than the current US program will ever be.
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par13del
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:28 am

Funny how on a discussion site we always tend to discuss in extremes.
I must admit that it is good to see that no poster so far has blasted the re-inforced cockpit door, indeed it is being used as a justification for not having armed pilots, when initially proposed, the idea was laughed at in a lot of circles, another TSA folly.

As for guns on the a/c, marshalls are mentioned as being better than pilots, guess what, when the decision was made to increase the marshall program that also ran into a lot of flak.

A discussion on how best to secure a/c from future hijacking should start on the ground with proper screening, however, no one really wants that as the lines would get too long, doors were proposed, some countries other than the US think its a bad idea and have not installed them, did the US pass a law mandating that for any a/c flying into US airspace?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Facts:
Holes in planes to date: 1
Holes in terrorists to date: 0
Terrorist attacks stopped by guns in cockpit: 0
Decrease in Al-Qaeda activity attributed to guns in cockpit: 0

Doclightning facts of why he is opposed to guns on an a/c, I totally respect his opinion. I quoted this to show something else, like those who enjoy playing devils advocate. I could also use those numbers to say that the new screening procedures put in place since 9/11 are working, hence the first line in my post, we tend to discuss in extremes.

There is no magic bullet for protection of aviation, however, it appears as if getting all parties around a table to discuss alternatives is very difficult, and before someone says that we on this site are not the professionals involved, that is correct, but we are the society from which those professionals are derived, what makes their personal and professional feelings different from their society?
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:32 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
Seriously - who is against arming airline pilots?

I'm an airline pilot and I'm against it. In fact, I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.
 
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:26 pm

I see it in terms of deterrence.

I read somewhere that one of the key strategic moves during the Falklands war was to announce that there was a British nuclear submarine in the area. Maybe it wasn't there, but it could not be ignored.

Unrelated? Maybe not. If you allow pilots to have guns in the cockpit you are adding one more level of uncertainty that a potential terrorist has to deal with. Maybe there is no gun at all, but the possibility cannot be ignored. Same with the air marshalls, except that in their case you might be able to identify them in advance. But you don't know what's behind that closed cockpit door.

A painful lesson learned was that those scum planned their operation in detail. For that you need a predictable environment. Making it unpredictable makes their job much harder and they might not even try. Maybe that has happened already? We cannot possibly measure it.

I don't think firing guns would be a solution. I think that the usefulness of the weapon is the fact that it could be there and it could not be ignored. That in itself might have helped already.

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PhilSquares
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:32 pm



Quoting 757GB (Reply 23):
I don't think firing guns would be a solution. I think that the usefulness of the weapon is the fact that it could be there and it could not be ignored. That in itself might have helped already

But, you already have that risk in the fact there might be air marshalls on the aircraft. Having another gun in the cockpit doesn't add any measure of safety. I could argue, it might be counter productive if you had a situation with weapons in the cabin. Who is who?????
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:34 pm



Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 22):
I'm an airline pilot and I'm against it. In fact, I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.

I never have been comfortable with arming pilots either. The main reason is the responsibly it puts on the shoulders of the captain .. and of course having a weapon on board. Sort of like having a prison guard carrying a gun into the cell blocks. One thing I know about life is that you can safely expect the unexpected .. and a loose gun on board is a problem.

IMO Air Marshals are different .... no one knows they have a gun or who they are so they are not targeted. And they obviously have extensive training.


Cockpit doors .... the reinforced versions ... you are not getting though those without some serious effort and tools. We have installed them . they are tough . You would need at least a heavy crash Axe or sledge hammer and that would take time... but a RPG would work !
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INNflight
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:44 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25):
IMO Air Marshals are different .... no one knows they have a gun or who they are so they are not targeted. And they obviously have extensive training.

One hundred percent true!!! I've got a friend who flies in the Israeli Forces as a helo pilot, and his uncle used to be an air marshal with El Al; they run extensive training programs including self defense, etc.... I'm sure they are more capable of dealing with somebody trying to get up front than the average pilot.

PLUS, there's a fricking good crash axe in every flight deck, puts a plastic knife of a terrorist to shame in seconds, trust me  Wink
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JakeOrion
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:47 pm

Personally, I think it should be pilot's choice, but that's just me.
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NIKV69
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:59 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 11):
Yeah Obama who inherited 1600 in the midst of a recession and a war on two fronts is the real bad guy here

What does this have to do with arming pilots? Bush inherited a mess from Clinton and we didn't hear about it every speech or every time someone calls Obama out for weaking us even more. Cut out the CNN talking points, they have no use here.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Facts:
Holes in planes to date: 1
Holes in terrorists to date: 0
Terrorist attacks stopped by guns in cockpit: 0
Decrease in Al-Qaeda activity attributed to guns in cockpit: 0

Thankfully the last potential hijackings were caught before it got to this point.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
I don't like guns on planes, PERIOD.

Yes we know but yourself and Obama and his homeland security cheif refuse to admit there are people that want to kill us. It is this thinking that will get us in trouble again. Your thinking too. We don't have the luxury of that anymore. Bush put these people on notice that we will fight them and Obama is telling them we won't. It's going to blow up in his face.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 19):
Nick has a VERY good point here, the vast difference is that El Al has air marshalls on almost every single of their flights, so those armed people sit in the cabin, as normal passengers, carrying guns; not up front.

Those air marshals can take a potential threat out before he even gets through the front curtain, pilots can only wave their glock through the window to the outside.

Good point Flo, but I feel arming pilots gives us another level of security. If you look at El Al they have so many things in place that work together and it works great. Isn't it wonderful when you actually accept (AS A COUNTRY) that terrorists exist and want to do harm to you? It's amazing what you can get done.

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 22):
I'm an airline pilot and I'm against it. In fact, I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.

Do you fly in the US? No offense but terrorists could give a damn less about your country but we are in a slightly different situation here.
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:34 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Yes we know but yourself and Obama and his homeland security cheif refuse to admit there are people that want to kill us.

Please quote someone from the current administration denying that terrorists exist.
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:08 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Yes we know but yourself and Obama and his homeland security cheif refuse to admit there are people that want to kill us



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Al Qaida has to be licking their lips at this point.

Craziness. Nobody would be elected President if they said such things. Either quote Obama saying AQ is no threat or retract your statement. Either way this is just semantic tomfoolery of the highest order.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
Are you satisfied with a system that has no redundancy?



Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
Seriously - who is against arming airline pilots?

Lots of pilots. I don't know a single one who's comfortable having guns in their carry on board and I can count on both hands the number of professional pilots I've asked about it.

I'll let the rest of the posts speak for themselves. When I'm in that seat, I won't be carrying one either.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Do you fly in the US? No offense but terrorists could give a damn less about your country but we are in a slightly different situation here.

Nonsense. Phil flies to several locations in South Asia - a hotbed of terrorism. My pilot friends here in Japan are well aware of the risk of hijackings - there have been three successful attempts at taking over a Japanese airliner on domestic flights in the last 20 years alone. Your charge is without merit.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:52 pm

I don't personally have a problem with arming pilots. I believe most pilots are responsible enough to carry a gun.

With that said, the problem I have with arming pilots is that it is a backwards thinking security protocol. Instead of trying to anticipate and thwart future methods of attack, we are assuming that terrorists will attack in a way similar to how they attacked in 9/11. This is a dumb assumption which has already proven to be false (see: Richard Reid aka "the shoebomber").

And of course, even if terrorists attempted to repeat 9/11, pilots aren't going to open the cockpit so that they can use their guns and the reinforced doors would allow plenty of time for passengers to overcome the terrorists.
 
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:11 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 30):
I don't know a single one who's comfortable having guns in their carry on board and I can count on both hands the number of professional pilots I've asked about it.



Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 22):
I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.

I am in favor of it. The majority of the people I fly with are too. I meet more people that support it than oppose it. Given the number of FFDOs in the US, we are not some wild-eyed fringe group.
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:13 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Terrorist attacks stopped by guns in cockpit: 0
Decrease in Al-Qaeda activity attributed to guns in cockpit: 0

These statements are speculation at best. We can't quantify the deterrence factor because those who would commit terrorist acts against airliners aren't going to come forward and say, "Gee guys, now that some of your pilots are armed, we'll go ahead and cancel the X number hijackings we had planned for this year."
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yowza
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:14 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
What does this have to do with arming pilots? Bush inherited a mess from Clinton and we didn't hear about it every speech or every time someone calls Obama out for weaking us even more. Cut out the CNN talking points, they have no use here.

If you read the entire post you would have seen that the point was he has been in office for less than 100 days. Rome was not built in a day, DC will not be rebuilt in a day either.

For the record I am not one of these Obama fan boys. I was and still am very skeptical as to what he is going to be able to achieve but he deserves a little bit of time to do some good. I still think he's "all show and no go" but time will tell. I hope I am wrong.

YOWza
 
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par13del
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:38 pm



Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 22):
I'm an airline pilot and I'm against it. In fact, I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 30):
Nonsense. Phil flies to several locations in South Asia - a hotbed of terrorism. My pilot friends here in Japan are well aware of the risk of hijackings - there have been three successful attempts at taking over a Japanese airliner on domestic flights in the last 20 years alone. Your charge is without merit.

I think this question and answer is a national one, example, for the average citizen in the UK it is almost impossible to get a hand gun much less a permit to carry it around, I would expect a poll of UK citizens would be 90% or greater opposed to guns in the cockpit as they are already opposed to them in society, probably the same for any country with major gun laws.
Ask the same questions in the US where for the most part hand guns and carry permits are leagal and easily obtained, you will get a different answer.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:24 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 24):
But, you already have that risk in the fact there might be air marshalls on the aircraft. Having another gun in the cockpit doesn't add any measure of safety. I could argue, it might be counter productive if you had a situation with weapons in the cabin. Who is who?????

The F/As and the Pilots know who the air marshall is, so this point is proobably void.

Quoting 757GB (Reply 23):

Probably the best post on here. The only thing I disagree with is that if you have guns in the cockpit, you have be willing to use them, because a weapon is only useful if the user is in fact willing to use it. Should any unauthorized person enter the flight deck, without hesitation there needs to be two bullets to the chest and one to head - no questions asked.
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Maverick623
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:50 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25):
IMO Air Marshals are different .... no one knows they have a gun or who they are so they are not targeted

They're really not that hard to spot. If someone was going to do a 9/11 style attack they'd be very observant as to who goes up to the podium, who gets on the plane first, etc...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Do you fly in the US? No offense but terrorists could give a damn less about your country but we are in a slightly different situation here.

Even if he flew in Ireland, have you been missing the news for the past 80 years?

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 22):
I'm an airline pilot and I'm against it. In fact, I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.

Every time I pass by a TSA checkpoint (at least twice a day), I see 1 or 2 pilots going down the exit lane.
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Alias1024
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:51 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 32):
I am in favor of it. The majority of the people I fly with are too. I meet more people that support it than oppose it. Given the number of FFDOs in the US, we are not some wild-eyed fringe group.

That seems to be the majority opinion I've noticed as well. I don't plan on participating in the program, but it doesn't bother me if other pilots want to.
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Vio
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:07 pm

I think that if anyone is to carry guns in an airplane is a trained law enforcement officer sitting in the back of the aircraft so he can observe and evaluate the need for using a gun. Pilots need to fly the plane, not shoot bad guys.

1. Cockpit doors are enough for now
2. Do you think that after 9/11, people would just sit and watch someone trying to break into the flight deck?

In my opinion, the only pilots that should carry guns are military pilots, who go into harm's way and may end up on the ground in enemy territories
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:27 pm



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
They're really not that hard to spot. If someone was going to do a 9/11 style attack they'd be very observant as to who goes up to the podium, who gets on the plane first, etc...

Probably true ... although I don't believe that AM's board as crew do they ?

Well this is one guy who will not sit back and let some wackos take over the plane I am on. If they tried that crap again .... it would be on. All 260 lbs of me would going Tod Beamer on there ass ! I will use a pen my lap top ..whatever ..it would be down right vicious man. The only way I see them taking over a plane again is if they have handguns ..box cutters are not going to do it. The passengers will not let it happen again . ... in my humble opinion.

And for the most part they are not getting though .. a Boeing , Zodiac type door without time and some heavy tooling.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:40 pm



Quoting Vio (Reply 39):
I think that if anyone is to carry guns in an airplane is a trained law enforcement officer sitting in the back of the aircraft so he can observe and evaluate the need for using a gun. Pilots need to fly the plane, not shoot bad guys.

Situation Evaluation - "There's somebody in the cockpit who doesn't belong here - What do you do?" Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! So the only training that's needed is how to A) properly arm and disarm the gun and B) how to put bullets on target from a distance of less than 6 feet. Because if the bad guys have broken into the cockpit, the need to use the gun is pretty clear at that point. The situation shouldn't require too much "evaluation" at all.
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:54 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 32):
I am in favor of it. The majority of the people I fly with are too. I meet more people that support it than oppose it. Given the number of FFDOs in the US, we are not some wild-eyed fringe group.

And were you to be working abroad with different security arrangements than the nonsense at TSA, you would likely have a different opinion, as most American pilots working overseas do.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
757gb
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:33 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 36):
The only thing I disagree with is that if you have guns in the cockpit, you have be willing to use them, because a weapon is only useful if the user is in fact willing to use it.

Thanks. From my gut instinct I agree. I also think that if they're not willing/knowledgeable the weapon becomes more of a liability than an asset. I'm not advocating for every pilot to carry a gun. But the ones that do need to know darn well what to do with it. Again, looking at it from the other side, by allowing those who are qualified to carry you create an uncertainty that might in itself deter some possible attempts.

Security is never an objective achieved by one measure. You create a security margin by layers of measures which many times are redundant, but in combination are hard to beat. Same concept with system redundancies in aircraft. You always assume one or several of your layers or protections can fail.

They're not going to offer you a fair fight. They're cowards despite their willingness to die.
So I agree with reasonable measures to convince them to not even try.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 24):
I could argue, it might be counter productive if you had a situation with weapons in the cabin. Who is who?????

Good point. I guess I'm thinking more in terms of somebody trying to enter the cockpit. If they get to that point I think it would mean that air marshalls were not present or had been neutralized. The gun in the cockpit as I visualize it would be a last layer of defense. Unfortunately if they get to that point the aircraft might be doomed already, and what could be hoped for would be to keep them from taking control of the plane and crashing it somewhere.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
khobar
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:09 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 11):
Yeah Obama who inherited 1600 in the midst of a recession and a war on two fronts is the real bad guy here. Damn it he's been in office for almost 100 days and he hasn't fixed the US aviation scene or cured HIV yet. What a slacker...

A recession that he stoked to the fullest and created a downward spiral bad enough to have ol' Bill tell him to STFU.

And now we find out that it was Obama who personally insisted the AIG et al execs got those bonuses, and that it was Dodd who wrote the language into the spending bill - the same Dodd who lied yesterday in claiming he had nothing to do with it.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 17):
TSA has told ALPA they have no intentions of slowing down or stopping the program. Some of the funding for it has been shifted to increase oversight. As the program has grown, so have the required resources to maintain proper oversight of it. TSA is looking for ways to cover those shifted funds so that the program can continue full steam ahead.

Okay, so the article is, in fact, accurate in that funding HAS BEEN DIVERTED from the program, forcing the program to operate with a smaller budget due to it being spread more thinly?

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 22):

I'm an airline pilot and I'm against it. In fact, I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.

Which is surprising given the administration's supposedly enthusiastic support for the program. Of course that enthusiasm was when the administration was speaking to a Union. After all, these are the same folks who say it's un-American to uphold law and order. WTF? I'm sure Pelosi will "clarify" her comments to the rest of us soon enough.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:22 am

I believe this program is good and adds another level of safety to the general public at little financial cost. Most of you have no idea what type of training these pilots receive nor what protocol they operate under. Many Captains and First Officers in the USA are in favor of this program and actively participate. Instead of speculating and criticizing, I suggest you should be thankful for their service.
 
dl021
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:56 am



Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 22):
I'm an airline pilot and I'm against it. In fact, I've yet to meet a pilot who is supportive of it.

Well, there's 12,000 other pilots who disagree with you whom you have yet to meet, I guess.

(I skipped right ahead so if someone else has answered this...sorry.)

The idea of arming pilots who keep the firearm in a locked guncase on the flightdeck, and only bring it out if someone is trying to break through the door (nothings impossible) seems to scare some people. I'll bet it makes the terrorists think twice, too.
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757gb
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:02 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
I'll bet it makes the terrorists think twice, too.

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God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
lowrider
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:32 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 42):
And were you to be working abroad with different security arrangements than the nonsense at TSA, you would likely have a different opinion,

Actually, most of my flying is outside the USA so I have had an opportunity to see what other countries do, but being very familiar with the TSA 3 ring security circus probably does influence my opinion. That, and if I am the one in the cockpit with an indeterminate threat on the outside, I want every advantage I can get.

[Edited 2009-03-18 18:46:09]
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usair320
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RE: Obama Slows Airline Pilots From Carrying Guns

Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:00 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
Do liberals just try and find ways to keep law abiding citizens from protecting themselves?

A one word answer to your question: Yes. Those on the far left are always complaining about warentless wiretapping and torture (And don't get me wrong, I agree with them 100% as the law of the land says law enforcement has no right to infringe upon or privacy unless a warrent is issued by the court), but when it comes to the 2nd amendment all of the sudden our constitution no longer matters.

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