AverageUser
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"Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:23 am

Says Mr Jorma Ollila, chairman of Nokia and Royal Shell.


In an interview with the Financial Times, Mr Ollila said: “What is the future of capitalism? In one way or other the answer is to solve these issues that the Nordic model does well. These are the ingredients. The Nordic model has a good bid [to be the best system]”.

[Mr Ollila] said the Nordic style of capitalism was characterised by openness to globalisation balanced by strong government programmes to protect people from its excesses and an egalitarian education system


I'll watch with interest if the message sticks.

Link to FT
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:55 am

Look at Linux, Nokia, Ikea, all Scandinavian companies. They have done great and they are still going strong. I hope they will keep doing well.

I always liked the Scandinavian enterprise Spirit.

Although look at Iceland. May not be good to be "too" Nordic.  Big grin
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babybus
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:59 am

I'd agree the only way forward for capitalism is to follow the Nordic model.

There is much to be said for transparency of government, everyone seems to know what everyone else earns, top earners in a town appear in lists in the local newspapers and strong unions bring stability to employment and therefore consumption.

Most of all the taxes you pay can be clearly seen being used to effect in the commumity.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:24 pm



Quoting Babybus (Reply 2):
I'd agree the only way forward for capitalism is to follow the Nordic model.

If you want a Scandenavian model, move to Scandenavia. I'd say it only would work in a relatively homogeneous society. Our population will not do well under such a system - You have a good 25% of the population who will just sit on their asses and say 'gimme'.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:42 pm

NZ is kinda modeled on the Scandinavian model and we do ok. Although after living in Norway for the last two years I've come to the realisation that a lot of people are paid way to much for the jobs that they do, this is then passed on to the consumers who pay exorbitant amounts of money for even the most basic of products and services.

Some examples

Men's haircut 60 USD
15km taxi ride 77 USD
Hourly rate at local Renault dealer 185 USD
Plumber hourly rate 95 USD plus travel time
 
Klaus
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:50 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Although after living in Norway for the last two years I've come to the realisation that a lot of people are paid way to much for the jobs that they do, this is then passed on to the consumers who pay exorbitant amounts of money for even the most basic of products and services.

Norway is a special case. Oil revenue increases incomes and prices there, but it also allows for relatively generous public spending without relying on personal taxes to the same extent as they would have to without the oil.
 
AverageUser
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:11 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Norway is a special case

If you look at the statistics, they are not exceedingly special in the European context, but they have quietly stashed away quite a sum. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2008/POL070908A.htm
 
767Lover
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:29 pm

Hmmmm. Norway has been drilling oil off its shores for about 3 decades. Something to think about.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Although after living in Norway for the last two years I've come to the realisation that a lot of people are paid way to much for the jobs that they do, this is then passed on to the consumers who pay exorbitant amounts of money for even the most basic of products and services.

They also have to pay a lot in taxes, so they have to make strong incomes, All those social services don't come free,
 
eaa3
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:31 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
Although look at Iceland. May not be good to be "too" Nordic. Big grin

Iceland is a bit different. It´s probably the most capitalistic country in the world. You could make the case that the Icelandic banks collapsed in Iceland because the Icelandic government refused to intervene and put taxpayers money into the banks. I mean look at the United States and Europe: They have put trillions of dollars in capital and liquidity into the banks. The liquidity isn´t exactly taxpayer money but the capital is. Without this government intervention the entire system would have collapsed like in Iceland.

The Icelandic government decided that instead of using it´s money to prop up these private banks they would simply stand by and let them fail as private enterprise should if in trouble.

I think that ultimately central banks should definitely provide liquidity and capital for banks that are to "to big to fail" but that wasn't the case for the Icelandic banks so for the government to put taxpayer money into them would have been irresponsible.

Look at Ireland. They have taken on more debt than their GDP in order to save their banks. Iceland could have taken on 10x GDP in debt and that would have been much worse than Ireland.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:43 pm

Didn't Sweden have a similar financial crisis in the 90s?
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Klaus
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:12 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 8):
The Icelandic government decided that instead of using it´s money to prop up these private banks they would simply stand by and let them fail as private enterprise should if in trouble.

That's not really what happened as far as I know — the bubble was simply too big for even the icelandic state to handle, basically leading to state bankruptcy in the absence of sufficient public funds.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:17 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
If you want a Scandenavian model, move to Scandenavia. I'd say it only would work in a relatively homogeneous society. Our population will not do well under such a system - You have a good 25% of the population who will just sit on their asses and say 'gimme'.

I actually half-agree with Dreadnought. But part of the reason that that 25% of the population is sitting on their asses is because we don't educate them or prepare them for life in any way.

Now, there's also a lot of mental illness in that population. That, unfortunately, is not fixable without euthanasia/eugenics. I'll leave it up to you, Dready, to suggest that approach, but I'll warn you that it hasn't been terribly popular since 1945.  Wink

My solution would simply be to limit reproductive freedom for those on welfare. You can have as many kids as you like as long as you can pay for them. If you can't pay for them, then you get two. If you have more than two, then they all get taken away. If you have two and you want to continue getting welfare, then you need to have a form of permanent or semi-permanent birth control or you don't get welfare. Don't like it? Get a job and pay for your kids and have octuplets to your heart's content.

But ultimately, the Nordic model does work. And they aren't as homogenous as you think up there. They have a burgeoning immigrant population that they educate and take care of and that immigrant population comes out ready to work.
-Doc Lightning-

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Klaus
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:30 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Now, there's also a lot of mental illness in that population. That, unfortunately, is not fixable without euthanasia/eugenics.

Apart from the obvious moral limitations which preclude it I rather doubt that it's a matter of genetics.

Improve people's education and offer them more incentives and opportunities for better circumstances and you'll see the amount of severe problems drop.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
My solution would simply be to limit reproductive freedom for those on welfare. You can have as many kids as you like as long as you can pay for them. If you can't pay for them, then you get two. If you have more than two, then they all get taken away.

Come on — aren't you a bit harsh on the breeders...?  mischievous 
 
eaa3
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:17 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
That's not really what happened as far as I know — the bubble was simply too big for even the icelandic state to handle, basically leading to state bankruptcy in the absence of sufficient public funds.

There was no state bankruptcy at all. Not even close. I don't know what you mean by bubble. What happened is that the banks became to big for the state to be able to save them and they decided that they wouldn't even try but the banks weren't a bubble. A similar thing is happening in Ireland. Their banks are too big compared to GDP but they are trying to save them and are mortgaging their future in the process.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:29 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):

Come on — aren't you a bit harsh on the breeders...? mischievous

Not when they're breeding at age 15 and producing kids who have no hope of ever living productive lives.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):

Apart from the obvious moral limitations which preclude it I rather doubt that it's a matter of genetics.

It is very genetic. Hundreds of studies have confirmed this. Behavior is genetic. Don't believe me? Would you rather leave your small child alone with a golden retriever or a pit bull? Behavior is genetic. And, as Mark Twain once said, "Stupidity, when protected, breeds."

We have to stop funding dysfunctional people having 10+ kids. Look at octo-mom. That should have NEVER been permitted. And the simple, ethical, and effective solution is simply to mandate that people must be able to pay for their kids.

I've worked with the welfare population a lot in my life. Many of these folks have kids for secondary gain. The teenage girls do it for respect, to have someone who will love them, to try to keep that man with them, etc. The older women do it for another welfare check.

I'll never forget the mom who came in for her 8th kid and 5th C-section. All on welfare, of course. The OB/GYN said during the C-section (which gets more and more complicated every time you do it because of the scar tissue) "I really don't recommend you do this again. I can tie your tubes right now, but if I don't, the next time could well kill you!" and the woman said "I'm just gon' keep on havin' 'em until I cain't!"

I paid for those 8 kids. So did every other taxpayer in New York. And I resent it.
-Doc Lightning-

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Kiwirob
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:36 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Norway is a special case. Oil revenue increases incomes and prices there, but it also allows for relatively generous public spending without relying on personal taxes to the same extent as they would have to without the oil.

Well if the govt are spending all the money on the public I sure as hell don't know where it's going, the roads in Norway are by a fair margin the worst in Europe, the school system badly needs more schools and refurbishment of existing ones, the health system needs new hospitals, the infrastructure in Norway has been suffering form underinvestment for a very long time.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
They also have to pay a lot in taxes, so they have to make strong incomes, All those social services don't come free,

I don't think I pay a lot of tax, I make high 6 figures, my income tax is 32% this year, last year I paid 37% but got a significant refund. What you pay in tax is dependant on things like your mortgage and the amount of interest you are paying per year.
 
victrola
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:44 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
We have to stop funding dysfunctional people having 10+ kids. Look at octo-mom. That should have NEVER been permitted. And the simple, ethical, and effective solution is simply to mandate that people must be able to pay for their kids.

I agree 100% with DocLightning on this one. If we followed such a policy, poverty and other social problems would plummet in the United States.
 
GDB
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:14 pm

'Nordic' also means other Scandinavian nations, not just Norway.

And yes, some of us have thought this a better model for a long time.
(Bearing in mind here, that defending the US/Anglo Saxon model of more recent times with the whole massive, destructive weight of the reality of the economic crisis enveloping us, is really not a good idea. Reality bites? This reality has torn a limb off).

Here's another, why are the nations that have this sort of system much, much better than both the US or UK, in relation to violent crime, underage/unwanted pregnancies, drug addiction, family breakdown, domestic violence and plenty more besides.
The bigger your underclass, the more negative problems that always end up affecting the rest of society, you'll get.

As for educational attainment, well guess who wins out there too.

From a British perspective, I note that even some British Conservative politicians have been casting their eyes across the North Sea as they prepare policies for the future.
If we are going to take, or adapt ideas from elsewhere, then the Scandinavian nations not only offer some good solutions in some cases, but also, have more similarities to us anyway.
Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Dutch are even similar in political structure in many ways, being constitutional monarchies for a start.

It's very hard to try and sell the idea that these nations are, to American eyes maybe, some kind of economically crippled socialist states.
Look at Sweden, (no big oil revenues for them), now think of the major world class companies from there.
SAAB, Volvo, Erickson, Scania, Ikea to name the obvious ones, and culturally they punch well above their population weight.

So this whole argument that you need almost unrestrained capitalism (even more so in the financial area), to grow world class businesses is and has always been, a deliberate lie.
Propagated by the types who took those massive bonuses even as their companies imploded, by those who undermine democracy with all their lobbying/bribery, by those in power who materially gained from this.

Business like stability best, so having an intrinsically unstable model seems rather counter intuitive, though of course those who wanted this the most were the ones 'making' money from nothing.
Not that the Scandinavian nations are any kind of utopia, such a place is impossible in human existence, but I'd swap our problems for theirs.

Really, defending what we've had up to now, in the Anglo Saxon world at least, is rather like defending Jim Jones and his cult they day after he and 900 of his followers committed mass suicide, back in 1978.
False gods. Him and our until recent 'Masters Of The Universe'.
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:19 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Men's haircut 60 USD

Also keep in mind that hourly wages are much higher. Minimum wage in Norway is about $15, and pretty much nobody makes minimum wage. Minimum wage in the US is more or less $7, and a haircut at a decent salon here will run you $30. So either way you're putting four hours of work into a haircut.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
They also have to pay a lot in taxes, so they have to make strong incomes,

My mom just got her tax return, and she paid 33% in taxes in 2008. Our sales tax is also 25%.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:11 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
I'll never forget the mom who came in for her 8th kid and 5th C-section. All on welfare, of course. The OB/GYN said during the C-section (which gets more and more complicated every time you do it because of the scar tissue) "I really don't recommend you do this again. I can tie your tubes right now, but if I don't, the next time could well kill you!" and the woman said "I'm just gon' keep on havin' 'em until I cain't!"

If they can get contraceptives for free through the welfare system, there is no excuse for having lots of kids they can't support.
But I suspect that the usual religious types will be strictly against supplying free contraceptives, claiming that it will lead to promiscuity and sin, and will only accept sexual abstinence, meaning that whoever is on welfare shouldn't have sex.

Jan
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slider
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:21 pm

Ah yes, the Scandinavian superpowers!!

This is laughable. They can have their system, that's fine.
 
Flighty
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:58 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
This is laughable. They can have their system, that's fine.

Agreed. I think the USA is much more impressive. We should have a health care system like theirs. Also, free education (including college) is probably a good policy. It pays for itself in terms of superior wages and therefore tax revenue. Also, their environmental policies are largely very good. But as an overall framework, they have just as much ridiculous nonsense as we do. In some cases, far worse. I wouldn't necessarily want to run a business in Norway or Sweden. They have a few standout companies. Our outlook at that front is just as good.
 
sv7887
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:28 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 21):
Also, free education (including college) is probably a good policy. It pays for itself in terms of superior wages and therefore tax revenue. Also, their environmental policies are largely very good.

It's also not a tenable system. The UK is a good example of this. They used to have virtually free education. But they've had to roll it back somewhat because the Universities couldn't get enough revenue.

The top UK universities: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, etc have come to rely heavily on foreign students (especially at the Grad level) to make money. They also charge "top up" fees to undergrads. But you get what you pay for.

If you look at the top ranked universities in the world it's no surprise that the top British and American (both public and private) universities dominate the rankings. They are well funded and provide a much better education.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article502784.ece

I'm not saying we shouldn't strive for better access to education, but the problem with "Free" is that it lends itself to abuse. If you're paying for at least some part of your education, there is a degree of commitment there.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:39 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
But I suspect that the usual religious types will be strictly against supplying free contraceptives, claiming that it will lead to promiscuity and sin, and will only accept sexual abstinence, meaning that whoever is on welfare shouldn't have sex.

We are talking about sterilization, not just birth control. I'm all for it.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 22):
I'm not saying we shouldn't strive for better access to education, but the problem with "Free" is that it lends itself to abuse. If you're paying for at least some part of your education, there is a degree of commitment there.

We could offer free university level education but only for skills which we know are needed. Engineers, physics, medicine, agronomy, and things like that. Fund those by completely withdrawing all public funds from professions which don't give a high return on investment from a society's point of view, like Law schools, psychology, basket weaving, history etc. If you want to study those things - YOU pay for it.

The only problem with my idea is that politicians will get to decide which careers get promoted. Anyone want to bet that they put Law School up there? The last thing we need on this planet are more lawyers.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
aero145
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:00 pm

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 8):
It´s probably the most capitalistic country in the world.

Don’t be too sure about that.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
May not be good to be "too" Nordic.

With the majority of the population derived from Norwegian people and being very much in the north - it is quite nordic in my opinion. The language is also very nordic - heck, it’s modernised Norse.  Smile

[Edited 2009-03-26 13:04:54]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:17 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):

If they can get contraceptives for free through the welfare system, there is no excuse for having lots of kids they can't support.

And they can get free contraceptives. Except lately the range of contraceptives that are covered by Medicaid keeps getting smaller and smaller. The WORST option for a low-socioeconomic status woman is birth control pills. You're dealing with a population that is notoriously bad for its adherence to therapeutic regimens and you want them to take a pill every day that they have to refill once a month?

Yet non-pill alternatives (NUVA-RING, MIRENA IUD, ORTHO-EVRA) keep getting cut from medicaid formularies.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
But I suspect that the usual religious types will be strictly against supplying free contraceptives, claiming that it will lead to promiscuity and sin, and will only accept sexual abstinence, meaning that whoever is on welfare shouldn't have sex.

And this is one of the fndamental inconsistencies in the so-called "Conservative" ideology. Demanding unrealistic behavior as the solution to social problems is not going to work. We've shown repeatedly that you cannot stop people from having sex. But you CAN stop them from having babies.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Kiwirob
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:22 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 17):
'Nordic' also means other Scandinavian nations, not just Norway.

Yup the Nordic countries are Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark, Sweden) plus Iceland, The Faroe Islands and Finland.

[Edited 2009-03-26 13:35:05]
 
aero145
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:38 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
Yup the Nordic countries are Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark, Sweden) plus Iceland, The Faroe Islands and Finland.

And Greenland and Aaland too!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:32 pm

Once Greenland gains independance in June it won't be part of the Danish Crown, the people are in the vast majority Inuit and the only official language will be Greenlandic which isn't a northern germanic dialect at all, so considering Greenlanders as Nordic is a stretch I think.

Åland is a province of Finland, which is Nordic but the people are mostly ethnic Swedes and Swedish speakers so they could be considered Scandinavian, its a tough call, maybe if we had an Ålandic member they could tell us what they believe themselves to be.
 
aero145
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:39 pm

It’s not June, it’s March.  Wink

Aren’t the Faroe Islands a province of Denmark? Yes, the people speak Faroese but the islands are still a province of the Danish Kingdom.

So, I think Åland and Greenland fit into your list anyways.  Smile
 
Doona
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:49 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Men's haircut 60 USD

Here in Sweden, I pay around that for a haircut, but it's not because it's really that expensive. The reason is that a court ruled that making the same services available to the public with different prices for men and women is illegal. So, instead of having to charge $30 for a woman's haircut, they choose to up the prices for men's haircuts instead. Quite good for business, I guess. Of course, there are hairdressers which have cheaper deals, and charge more for "extras", but the generational shift in *style* keeps me out of those places...

Cheers
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Kiwirob
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:03 pm



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 29):
It’s not June, it’s March.

My bad.

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 29):
Aren’t the Faroe Islands a province of Denmark? Yes, the people speak Faroese but the islands are still a province of the Danish Kingdom.

Yup I forgot about that I'm sure the Danish taxpayers haven't, for a small place with a small population they have incredible roads, sub-sea tunnels and bridges connecting to islands with a single family living on them, all subsidised by the Danes. Crazy place, Faroese also sounds a lot more like Norwegian than Danish to me.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:06 pm

uote=DocLightning,reply=25]Demanding unrealistic behavior as the solution to social problems is not going to work[/quote]

No, but demanding that corporate entities operate by the laws governing them, not spending a fortune on legal fees to find the "cracks" in their governing laws, and not lobbying members of Congress to repeal critically important laws like the Glass-Steagall Act is the FIRST step to ending unrealistic behavior on the part of America's corporate citizens....

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
Hmmmm. Norway has been drilling oil off its shores for about 3 decades. Something to think about.

Oh no, a reprise of the "drill baby drill" slogan from the Republican presidential campaign!  duck 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
dxing
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:17 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
Look at Linux, Nokia, Ikea, all Scandinavian companies. They have done great and they are still going strong. I hope they will keep doing well.

And then along comes the Saab story.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
But part of the reason that that 25% of the population is sitting on their asses is because we don't educate them or prepare them for life in any way.

Yet for some strange reason we don't demand that they do whatever they can to edcuate themselves.

If the nordic model is the future of capitalism then capitalism is dead.
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aero145
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:18 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
Faroese also sounds a lot more like Norwegian

My feeling exactly when I paid them a visit (courtesy of Atlantic Airways).  biggrin 

On another note: Have you got relatives or are you from any of the Nordic countries?  Smile
 
baroque
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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:23 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 32):
Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
Hmmmm. Norway has been drilling oil off its shores for about 3 decades. Something to think about.

Oh no, a reprise of the "drill baby drill" slogan from the Republican presidential campaign!

Quite, but even more interesting is the different fist that Norway and the UK made out of reserves of a similar size - I don't think the larger size of the UK population explains the different outcomes. But having Maggie T there while the vast majority of the UK oil reserves were sold off, a high proportion at bargain basement prices, probably accounts for more of the difference.

Goodness this is a strange thread, I find myself nodding in agreement with the Dreaded one although to be fair, that is more originating from DocL.  Big grin

I really should dig in the archives to find who it was (more than one too) that assured me a couple of years ago that the UK having closed down its coal industry and raped its oil and gas reserves was no way in any kind of a problem at all because the city would keep things going. I was very forcefully assured of that and left with some sort of lame riposte such as it might be better to have a real economy and be producing real things and not bits of paper.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9963
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:05 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 33):
And then along comes the Saab story.

That isn't Saab's fault, the blame for this issue rests solely in the heads of HM

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 34):
On another note: Have you got relatives or are you from any of the Nordic countries?

Married to a Norwegian, two half Kiwi, half Norwegian children and currently living in Molde. Although I must admit I am struggling to learn Norsk.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:09 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):

I always liked the Scandinavian enterprise Spirit.

 checkmark 

Case in point: Swedish Bikini Team  bigthumbsup 

Ain't I a stinker?
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:29 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
I don't think I pay a lot of tax, I make high 6 figures, my income tax is 32% this year, last year I paid 37% but got a significant refund. What you pay in tax is dependant on things like your mortgage and the amount of interest you are paying per year.

I was also factoring in sales tax (25%?)
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:09 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 32):
Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
Hmmmm. Norway has been drilling oil off its shores for about 3 decades. Something to think about.

Oh no, a reprise of the "drill baby drill" slogan from the Republican presidential campaign! duck

Laugh, but...

"The economic growth of the country (Norway) was just below the OECD average until
the 1970s when Norway discovered vast amount of petroleum resources in the
North Sea.
Undoubtedly, the oil-propelled economy has carried the country to
one of the richest in the world today."

Later in the document it is mentioned that petroleum profits are a large contributer to social and health program funding.

--from Health Systems In Transition: Norway
© World Health Organization 2006, on behalf of the European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies
 
AverageUser
Topic Author
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:57 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Åland is a province of Finland, which is Nordic but the people are mostly ethnic Swedes and Swedish speakers so they could be considered Scandinavian, its a tough call, maybe if we had an Ålandic member they could tell us what they believe themselves to be

The Åland Islands is an autonomously governed province of Finland. Unlike the rest of Finland, it's not officially bilingual with Finnish and Swedish. It's also demilitarized due to an 19th C. peace agreement. The islands are afaik the only place in the free-market EU where your right to own property and work professionally is limited by a local statute & tied to your linguistic skills, namely a command of Swedish. The islanders have also sweet-dealed with the EU on their island being a VAT-free territory so that ferries (many owned by Ålanders) travelling between Finland and Sweden only need to call an Åland port, and they can sell duty-free products onboard for the whole journey.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:01 am

BS, Finland don´t have any population growth, Swedens companies (Volvo and SAAB cars,
Bofors guns, ABB and so on) are sold to abroad and got one of the highest youth unemployment (thats why Sweden is so violent nowadays) within EU, IKEA makes it´s money on manufacturing in 3rd world countries and sell in 1st. Norway and Denmark rely heavy on oil and natural gaz
finds. Iceland are bankrupt.
No, this is BS, from a stupid Finn.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19766
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:19 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 32):

No, but demanding that corporate entities operate by the laws governing them, not spending a fortune on legal fees to find the "cracks" in their governing laws, and not lobbying members of Congress to repeal critically important laws like the Glass-Steagall Act is the FIRST step to ending unrealistic behavior on the part of America's corporate citizens....

Oh yeah, then the other thing about the so-called "conservative" ideology is that after demanding unrealistic behavior from citizens and providing no alternative, corporations are allowed, in fact, expected to behave completely irresponsibly.

It's never made sense to me. I prefer a model of complete personal liberty to do anything that doesn't harm anyone else, but very strict controls on corporations.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 37):

Case in point: Swedish Bikini Team bigthumbsup

I also support laws requiring a male equivalent.  Wink  thumbsup 
(although they'd look silly in bikinis)
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:15 am



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 38):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
I don't think I pay a lot of tax, I make high 6 figures, my income tax is 32% this year, last year I paid 37% but got a significant refund. What you pay in tax is dependant on things like your mortgage and the amount of interest you are paying per year.

I was also factoring in sales tax (25%?)

The only tax which is really high in Norwayis the one on alcoholic drinks, but this is a political (and religious) issue. The southern half of Norway used to be inhabited by a majority of fun hating protestant fundamentalists, who in the centuries past even wanted to ban such frivolic activities like dancing or playing musical instruments.
Alcohol was the devil in any case. So, if they couldn't ban alcohol outright (and AFAIK there are quite a few "dry" communities around in the place), they could at least make it so expensive that nobody could afford it (in theory, smuggling alcoholic drinks and moon-shining are popular sports in Norway).
This gives me an idea: Could that whole socialengineering stuff have it's roots in the religious traditions?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:46 am

To the fortune of border towns in Sweden towards Norway, like Strömstad, AKA Tijuana of Scandinavia.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:22 am



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 24):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
May not be good to be "too" Nordic.

With the majority of the population derived from Norwegian people and being very much in the north - it is quite nordic in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong. I have always been a great admirer of Norway and I love to visit there.
I would have made the move if I did not have so much difficulty with cold climates. I am very good with learning languages, this would not be any problem. I like Norway very much.

Iceland is a different question. I like Keflavik airport, I have some memories of Concorde in that airport but I would never have thought of moving to Iceland or even less Greenland.  cold 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9963
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:49 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
The only tax which is really high in Norwayis the one on alcoholic drinks

Not true, the tax on new cars is also outreagious, the Norwegian carpark is the oldest in Europe. So out cars coupled with poor roads leads to a lot of dead people who shouldn't be dead, for that I blame the Norwegian government and all the idiotic Norwegians who are to pathetic to do anything about it. People in Norway do not know how to protest, they just accept that the people in power are doing the right thing and leave it at that.

Last I heard the value of cross border trade (smuggling) with Sweden is something like 2 billion NOK per week. People living anywhere near the Swedish border buy all there groceries, electrical goods, building supplies, tobacco, alcohol and anything else they can smuggle in from Sweden.
 
eaa3
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:20 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 45):
Iceland is a different question. I like Keflavik airport, I have some memories of Concorde in that airport but I would never have thought of moving to Iceland or even less Greenland. cold

According to the United Nations Human Development Index Iceland was the best country in the world to live in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
 
AverageUser
Topic Author
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:26 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
Could that whole socialengineering stuff have it's roots in the religious traditions

Yes, the idea of egality that is fundamental to Nordic social thinking has its roots in the evangelical (pietist) movement, that was decidedly anti-elite, and the Social Democrats have traditionally had a notable openly Christian fraction.
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:46 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Married to a Norwegian, two half Kiwi, half Norwegian children and currently living in Molde. Although I must admit I am struggling to learn Norsk.

Nice to hear about you being in Norway now!  Smile
I also have problems with understanding Norwegian as it sounds like a mixture of Føroyskt (which is written almost like íslenska) and Svenska but is written almost like Dansk.  biggrin 

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 45):
I like Keflavik airport

Then you should pay my home airport a visit! Big grin RKV is amazing - that is, when we get some interesting aircraft! The Concorde overflew RKV before it landed in KEF in the 80’s, here’s a picture taken by my friend:


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Photo © Eggert Norðdahl

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