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stasisLAX
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Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:03 am

The Aston Martin Rapide-ish looking Tesla Model S sedan is scheduled to be launched by late 2011 with a pricetag of approximately $50K USD - if Tesla can secure the funding (from both private and governmental sources) necessary to actually market the car, and secure an assembly plant in which it will be built. Here's more details from today's article on MotorAuthority.com.

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2012 Tesla Motors Model "S" luxury sedan


"The prototype was unveiled today at Tesla's design studio inside CEO Elon Musk's SpaceX rocket factory in Hawthorne, California. Tesla's Elon Musk demonstrated its functionality outside the plant, confirming it is in fact drivable. The company says that the final production model will be almost identical in appearance. Just last week Tesla released official pricing info for the car, with a target of $57,400 before the $7,500 tax credit it will be eligible for, which brings the final effective price down to $49,900.

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2012 Tesla Motors Model "S" luxury sedan


A quick run-down of the car's stats reveals the Model S will carry on the Roadster's mantle of green performance, while expanding considerably on its utility: a 300mi (480km) range is complemented by an expected 0-60mph (96km/h) time of 5.5-6.0 seconds. There's even work being done on an optional 600mi (960km) extended-range battery pack. Despite the range of the 300mi pack, Tesla is claiming a 45 minute quick-charge time. The battery pack itself will be warrantied for 7-10 years, while the car will be warrantied separately for a period of 3-4 years."

Source: http://www.motorauthority.com/tesla-unveils-the-model-s-sedan.html

Would you consider buying a Tesla? Oh, and don't forget about the $7500 USD tax credit!
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:11 am

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Would you consider buying a Tesla? Oh, and don't forget about the $7500 USD tax credit!

Wow this is the first "green" car you've ever posted I might consider. Not only is it easy on the eyes, but for 50k? That's not bad, assuming it at the very least matches the big 3 German luxury builders' mid range models I don't see why it couldn't work. Aside from the range issues its perfect for a CEO of some not too big or not too small company to cruise around town in to and from work.

I wonder if they're using their own platform or basing it off something else like they did with their Elise-based roadster. The article doesn't mention either way.

If I was them though, I'd make a Hydrogen fuel cell version. Heck Honda is already mass producing them.

[Edited 2009-03-26 18:15:39]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:16 am

I wonder if Aston Martin approved the obvious ripoff.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Would you consider buying a Tesla? Oh, and don't forget about the $7500 USD tax credit!

No. Not for $50K. If it got down to $25-30K, it might get interesting. I would not pay any more than that for a car that's basically only good in town.

The problem is still the range. If I suddenly need to drive someplace, I might be forced to rent a car. While they might claim 300 mile ranges, the last 150 or 100 miles of that might be extremely sluggish.

Remember when Top Gear tested the first Tesla? It ran out of juice very fast after a little spirited driving.
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greaser
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:20 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Would you consider buying a Tesla? Oh, and don't forget about the $7500 USD tax credit!

Of course! This car has huge potential in areas like the populated west (CA, WA), and the East Coast, where cities are closer together than say the midwest. Until there is some solution to the 45min charge time, i don't think the car will be huge across the US. They need to find a extremely fast charging solution, 5 mins tops.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 1):
If I was them though, I'd make a Hydrogen fuel cell version. Heck Honda is already mass producing them.

Hydrogen is of course the main competitor, but I just think it's the betamax of the two. From molecule to fuel, it's an expensive and complex process. The fuel cell technology is still insufficient for mass use, and the infrastructure changes will be huge. I like it because you go to a pump, fill it up, and go...just like a petrol car. Beyond that, i think batteries have it. The public is more comfortable and aware of hybrid electric vehicles. Valid or not, people like the idea of being able to sell their electricity back to the grid. Honda and BMW are the only two major car companies at the forefront of hydrogen technology, with honda playing both cards to make sure whatever happens it doesnt lose.
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Superfly
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:21 am

Best of luck to Tesla and just about any brand that wants to open a plant in the United States and create jobs.

Why are they naming themselves after a 1980s glam-metal band?
Bring back the Concorde
 
greaser
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:22 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Remember when Top Gear tested the first Tesla? It ran out of juice very fast after a little spirited driving.

Top Gear has been criticized for falsifying the road test. The car still had ample range. Google top gear tesla. Tesla had data proof of this.
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dw747400
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:24 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):

Why are they naming themselves after a 1980s glam-metal band?

Nikola Tesla

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:24 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
Why are they naming themselves after a 1980s glam-metal band?

Tesla was a turn of the century scientist - along the lines of Edison and Einstein  wink 
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Superfly
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:36 am



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 6):
Nikola Tesla



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 7):
Tesla was a turn of the century scientist - along the lines of Edison and Einstein

Oh yeah I forgot about him.


I am sure this car will do very well among the Hollywood-types that like to make a fashionable political statements.
Bring back the Concorde
 
mham001
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:52 am

Expect it to be vaporware unless they get huge funding from the government. They had a production facility planned for this car in San Jose that was meant to break ground some months ago and very surreptitiously canceled it because they have no money and no investors. Their dreams pretty much crashed with the price of oil.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:31 am



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 9):
Their dreams pretty much crashed with the price of oil.

Not necessarily. Tesla Motors is to receive $350M USD in federal government funding by the middle of this year.

Source: http://www.kcbs.com/Tesla-Expects--3...illion-in-Government-Loans/3834091
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corocks
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:37 pm



Quoting Greaser (Reply 3):
They need to find a extremely fast charging solution, 5 mins tops.

I think this is the key to electric cars ever being mainstream. You could never take a road-trip in one of these cars until fast charging stations are common.

I have always heard the key to longer battery life for any rechargable battery is to let it run down almost completely before you charge it up again. I wonder if it would hurt the batteries in these cars if you plugged it in every night after only driving 50-100 miles each day?
 
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:17 pm



Quoting Corocks (Reply 11):

I have always heard the key to longer battery life for any rechargable battery is to let it run down almost completely before you charge it up again.

 checkmark  That's especially true for the older NiCd batteries. NiMh and Li-ion are not so prone to battery "memory" caused by not fully discharging them but it is still wise to do so. I never recharge my cell until it goes under 1bar. I hear my friends replacing their cell batteries all the time. I've always had good life from the original ones the phone came with due to my good charging habits.
 
David L
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:34 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 12):
That's especially true for the older NiCd batteries. NiMh and Li-ion are not so prone to battery "memory" caused by not fully discharging them but it is still wise to do so. I never recharge my cell until it goes under 1bar.

You're right about Ni-Cds being particularly bad for that but there's a significant difference with Li-ion batteries, for example. The performance may be degraded to a certain extent by partial recharging but each one I've had has shown no noticeable difference by the time I ditched the device they powered. In any case, there are Ni-Cd chargers that fully discharge the battery before recharging. Conventional car batteries don't even give you the option of letting them run down before recharging. In fact, I'm reasonably sure it's recommended not to let car batteries discharge too much before recharging.
 
chase
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:34 pm

Me wantee!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
If it got down to $25-30K, it might get interesting

Their plan is for sales of the Roadster to finance development of this, and for sales of this to finance development of the third model, currently codenamed "Bluestar". Bluestar is currently projected to go on sale in 2012, in the $2x,xxx range. As we all know, schedules slip, but I'm seriously eyeing Bluestar as a replacement for my current car. I'd get the Model S, but it's out of my price range.

Quoting Corocks (Reply 11):
I think this is the key to electric cars ever being mainstream. You could never take a road-trip in one of these cars until fast charging stations are common.

I'm not sure if the optional 600-mile battery pack means "600 more miles" or "600 total miles", i.e. if the total with it would be 600 or 900. But either way, that's about the limit to how far you can drive in a day without being worn out. So really all they'd need to do is put outlets in motel parking lots, and problem solved. Heck, you could just bring an extension cord with you, park near your ground-floor motel room, and run the cord to an outlet inside the room.
For other electric cars with lower ranges, such as 50 or 100 miles, maybe employers could even let their employees plug in during the work day. I work for a fairly progressive company...I can see it now: a sign reading "electric vehicle parking only" with an outlet on the sign post. That would be sweet.
 
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:31 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
A quick run-down of the car's stats reveals the Model S will carry on the Roadster's mantle of green performance, while expanding considerably on its utility: a 300mi (480km) range is complemented by an expected 0-60mph (96km/h) time of 5.5-6.0 seconds. There's even work being done on an optional 600mi (960km) extended-range battery pack. Despite the range of the 300mi pack, Tesla is claiming a 45 minute quick-charge time. The battery pack itself will be warrantied for 7-10 years, while the car will be warrantied separately for a period of 3-4 years."

Source: http://www.motorauthority.com/tesla-unveils-the-model-s-sedan.html

Would you consider buying a Tesla? Oh, and don't forget about the $7500 USD tax credit!

Those specs are amazing for an electic car. I think if Tesla can pull this off then they will assert their dominance over the pretenders of the green revolution... i.e. Smart and New Mini. I mean who's going to pay 18K for a car that tiny? Daimler and BMW have perverted the green revolution into a novelty for the rich rather than something accessible to the mainstream. If Tesla ends up being successful look for some kind of buyout by one of the big auto manufacturers in the next few years. I think now that the mainstream auto industry is hurting Tesla has a chance of introducing something completely revolutionary just in time for economic recovery.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I wonder if Aston Martin approved the obvious ripoff.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Though I think Tesla has given green a new image. Toyota and Honda for too long have made specialty green cars look like geeky golfcarts. I would never buy a Prius for the simple fact that it looks like a cheese wedge on tires.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
NoWorries
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:24 am

Interesting that they claim a 45 minute quick charge -- must be ideal conditions.

I couldn't find a capacity rating for the battery on their website -- wikipedia has it at 53KWh.
A convential 120V 15A outlet would allow 18KW, so about 3 hours for a full charge - assuming it could be driven close to 100%. If you can find a clothes-drier outlet you could knock it down to an hour to an hour and a half (again assuming 100% charge rate).
 
Alessandro
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:50 am

I still think a three seater like the Matra Bagheera would be a better choice after the roadster.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:14 am

Here's a link to autoblog.com that has at least 40 pics of the new Tesla Model S fully dressed prototypes undergoing road testing! I know it's a Rapide rip-off, but damn does it look AMAZING!

Source:http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/
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NoWorries
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:13 pm



Quoting Noworries (Reply 16):
A conventional 120V 15A outlet would allow 18KW, so about 3 hours for a full charge

Looks like I made a math error -- 1.8KW -- so it would take at least 30 hours to recharge a depleted battery. A 20A 240V outlet would be 4.8KW, so it would take at least 11 hours to recharge a depleted battery. Even if an owner only typically runs it down to half charge, it still sounds like maybe an overnight recharge -- not sure where they get their optimistic times.
 
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:59 pm



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 6):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):

Why are they naming themselves after a 1980s glam-metal band?

Nikola Tesla

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

If it wasn't for Tesla and Westinghouse, the world would be using Edison's power grid, using only DC power, which is worthless for long-distance transportation, as it can't be stepped up as AC can.
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seb146
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:07 pm

I don't understand something: If an upstart company can produce a battery powered car this easily, why can't an established company do it for less? Why are we still accepting gasoline powered cars when it is obvious that we do not need gasoline anymore?
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growly150
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm

Could somebody explain to me how these electric cars are "green" cars? Where do we get the power to charge them and how? Our sources for energy are still very dirty, especially at the large-scale "filling" stations you are yearning for. If you had a wind turbine in your yard that you hooked up to it would be different, but this is a stop-gap.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:05 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 21):
I don't understand something: If an upstart company can produce a battery powered car this easily, why can't an established company do it for less? Why are we still accepting gasoline powered cars when it is obvious that we do not need gasoline anymore?

Uhhh, wrong. We need gasoline power. Tesla is my absolute LAST choice if I want to drive any long distance. These cars are only good for commuter trips and would need a while night to recharge.

It's called practicality. These cars just don't meet the need of a lot of drivers out there. And car companies would be stupid to only cater to the 9-5 commuter crowd.

I would also point out to all those fawning over this thing that electricity prices will skyrocket with the obvious demand increase from widespread use of these vehicles.

Also, how "green" is this thing anyway? Increased demand for electricity increases fossil fuel consumption at generating stations. Battery manufacture involves lots of toxic chemicals that make CO2 seem all nice and friendly. Not to mention battery leaks in car accidents, and of course disposal of use up vehicles will be quite expensive. This can be remedied by working the projected cost of disposal/salvage into the purchase price of the vehicle, but for Tesla it will mean higher prices.

Not saying this is a bad idea. I applaud Tesla and wish them success. But they can't walk on water here...to suggest current car manufacturers are suddenly "inferior" and "useless" is a massive flying leap.

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stasisLAX
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:31 am



Quoting Growly150 (Reply 22):
Could somebody explain to me how these electric cars are "green" cars? Where do we get the power to charge them and how? Our sources for energy are still very dirty, especially at the large-scale "filling" stations you are yearning for.

Especially since just over 50 percent of all electricity generated in the U.S. is generated from coal-fuel powerplants. In the rest of the world, coal-generated electricity is about 40 percent with China and India being other massive coal using nations.

Source: http://www.pbs.org/now/science/coal.html
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dl021
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:57 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Would you consider buying a Tesla? Oh, and don't forget about the $7500 USD tax credit!

Hell yes....I'm all in.

I'll have one car for road trips and give the wife this one for local trips. If the recharge is really at 45 minutes then this car is actually viable for long trips.....you just have to stop for an hour every 300 miles. 300/60 to 70mph avg = 4-5 hrs....I think that's doable. Stop for a meal and recharge if that's workable (assuming the infrastructure is workable....big assumption) midway through the days driving (I don't usually drive more than 10 hours in a day)....plus its a great looking car.

Warranty and service availability are the big questions.
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UAL747
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:24 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 25):
plus its a great looking car.

That's the thing, only now are we starting to see good looking cars that are energy effecient. Though, I do question the Lexus LS600h's energy effeciency.....

This is really a phenomenal looking car, and hopefully it won't be made of cheap interior parts.

I would definitely drive it. Honestly, I do not really take road trips over 4 hours. The longest I've EVER driven was from Oklahoma City to South Padre Island, TX, about 13 hours. I mean, other than truck drivers, who really drives more than 300 miles a day on a daily basis? Or even 200? And if this car could possibly have a battery life of 600 miles, then there is aboslutely no reason why it wouldn't absolutely be a great thing, if you could also have the support infrastructure for recharging readily available.

UAL
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stasisLAX
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:42 am



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 26):
This is really a phenomenal looking car, and hopefully it won't be made of cheap interior parts.

The instrument panel is supposed to be a touch-screen (aka glass cockpit) high-tech with all the gadgets. Tesla hasn't released an official photo of the interior yet.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
UAL747
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:51 am

Well, here's the start of it....

http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/t/e/tesla_model_s_prototype_leak_003-0326-950x650.jpg

UAL
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Kiwirob
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:44 am

I'd rather have a Fisker Karma, Valmet (same company that builds Boxter and Caymen for Porsche) starts production this year.

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stasisLAX
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:54 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
I'd rather have a Fisker Karma, Valmet (same company that builds Boxter and Caymen for Porsche) starts production this year.

Very nice looking car, but I like the styling of the Tesla sedan better.  yes 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
chase
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:58 am



Quoting Growly150 (Reply 22):
Could somebody explain to me how these electric cars are "green" cars? Where do we get the power to charge them and how? Our sources for energy are still very dirty, especially at the large-scale "filling" stations you are yearning for. If you had a wind turbine in your yard that you hooked up to it would be different, but this is a stop-gap.

I'll be glad to try  Smile

1) A gasoline-powered car *must* run on gasoline, for its entire lifespan (assuming you don't swap out the engine). If you buy an electric car today, depending on where you live, sure, maybe it would indirectly be a coal-powered car. But a lot of things could change that during the car's lifetime - maybe you might move to a place where the grid is fed by solar or wind or nuclear or hydro to some large extent. Maybe you don't move, but they build a solar array near your town a couple years from now. So...you make a good point that these cars have the potential to be somewhat "dirty", but they don't have to be. And since we're in a mode of installing new renewable plants with increasing frequency, as a radio commentator put it recently, an electric car's dirtiest day is the day you drive it home.

2) I don't have hard numbers to back this up, but I assume economies of scale must come into play. It would be ridiculous for Keebler to bake each cracker it makes in its own individual oven. Likewise I'm just guessing it must be much less efficient to burn fossil fuels in millions of little energy plants (aka car engines), and furthermore require the energy produced in the energy plants to transport the plant itself, and the stuff the plant is burning...than it would be to have a much smaller number of centrally-located energy plants (aka coal plants).
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:59 pm

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 21):
(1) I don't understand something: If an upstart company can produce a battery powered car this easily, why can't an established company do it for less?

(2) Why are we still accepting gasoline powered cars when it is obvious that we do not need gasoline anymore?

1. Telsa is producing a very limited number of vehicles targeting a specific group of buyers. It's physically impossible for the industry as a whole to start building these kind of vehicles by the millions. The supply chain to make that kind of electrical hardware at high volumes doesn't exist. The electric grid will take decades of upgrades to handle the load of millions of electric vehicles.

2. Life-cycle ownership cost still favors gasoline engines by a wide margin. Insisting on using electric transportation when fossil fuels are still cheaper only raises the cost of living for millions of Americans. The result is less economic opportunity.

Consumers will adopt electric vehicles when it is to their advantage to do so. Besides, the gasoline IC engine still has room for improvement. Automakers have just in the past few years begun using gasoline direct injection which provides greater efficiency for very little premium.

I also forgot to say this: Telsa doesn't have to deal with unions or the entrenched bureaucracies inherent to the U.S. auto manufacturers. A lean group of engineers and machinist can work miracles when you actually let them work.

[Edited 2009-03-29 10:02:15]
 
Cadet57
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:15 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
Well, here's the start of it....


Oh dear god. Is that vista on the screen? Poor bugger wont even leave the driveway without depleting half the battery just loading all the bloatware that vista has  

[Edited 2009-03-29 11:24:09]
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
UAL747
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:38 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 33):
Oh dear god. Is that vista on the screen? Poor bugger wont even leave the driveway without depleting half the battery just loading all the bloatware that vista has

LOL, I know I saw that window, and thought, OH GOD not Microsoft based, PLEASE! GOD NO! Nothing like your car getting the "NO START" Virus Or even worse, "Full Throttle until you run out of gas, or into something" virus. Or waiting around while your car asks you to update Norton Anti-Virus and scan your onboard computer....asking your to update your Java Script everytime you turn the thing on!

UAL
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sccutler
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:49 pm

They deliver this car, at the stated price, with the stated performance goals substantially matched, they'll sell the pee out of 'em. I think it looks like a brilliant play.
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Alessandro
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:04 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):

I'd rather have a Fisker Karma, Valmet (same company that builds Boxter and Caymen for Porsche) starts production this year.

Difference between the two companies is that Tesla has already delivered cars, Fisker is still
on the prototype stage.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
metroliner
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:34 pm



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
Well, here's the start of it....

I hate it.

Signed,

Klaus

 Wink
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Flighty
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:50 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 21):
I don't understand something: If an upstart company can produce a battery powered car this easily, why can't an established company do it for less?

They probably could, but they do not have adequate leadership. GM is only producing the Volt because Tesla put out its roadster, invalidating all claims that it's impossible.

Quoting Growly150 (Reply 22):
Could somebody explain to me how these electric cars are "green" cars? Where do we get the power to charge them and how?

Coal plants are maybe 4x as thermally efficient as gas piston engines, so that is where the efficiency comes from. Is it perfectly green, no. But there are many advantages. Engine warmup is inefficient; cars pollute until their cats are warm; this eliminates that whole thing.

With perfect batteries (big capacity fast charge), then nobody would need a fossil engine at all. More useful though, plug-in hybrids can reduce our gas bill to near nothing without a Tesla amount of battery capacity.

Im optimistic that this tech will get cheaper fast. Cars are already pretty complicated so engineers can definitely handle this.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:19 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Coal plants are maybe 4x as thermally efficient as gas piston engines, so that is where the efficiency comes from. Is it perfectly green, no. But there are many advantages. Engine warmup is inefficient; cars pollute until their cats are warm; this eliminates that whole thing.

You're still shifting the pollution from automobiles to power plants that much not increase their output to cope with rising demand. Electricity prices will rise drastically. It's foolish to think they won't.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
With perfect batteries (big capacity fast charge), then nobody would need a fossil engine at all. More useful though, plug-in hybrids can reduce our gas bill to near nothing without a Tesla amount of battery capacity.

Well, when we have those perfect batteries, then yes, electric cars will rule. Right now they don't have much range and charging times are too long. Even Tesla's cars are more for commuters.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
invalidating all claims that it's impossible.

No one is claiming it's impossible.

But people rooted in reality are correctly pointing out that it is currently impractical without further development...particularly in infrastructure. (e.g. charging stations and the like).

It is totally unrealistic to use today's electricity prices to rate the cost of ownership of these vehicle, especially when one considers the demand increase that widespread use of these cars will cause.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Flighty
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:46 pm



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 39):
Even Tesla's cars are more for commuters.

Absolutely, they are a curiosity, nothing more.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 39):
It is totally unrealistic to use today's electricity prices to rate the cost of ownership of these vehicle,

I wouldn't say totally unrealistic. Electricity prices have never gone very high long term. They are backed by all energy sources combined -- nuclear, NG, and coal. If oil is so cheap then we can burn that to make electricity. But, let's not dismiss existing technology out of hand. It might work even without any government help (and generic taxes are not "bailout" for any one group). We'll just have to watch. The fact Japan, Europe beat us so badly on efficiency also speaks to the idea that we could do better, if we had a policy.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:56 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 40):
I wouldn't say totally unrealistic. Electricity prices have never gone very high long term. They are backed by all energy sources combined -- nuclear, NG, and coal. If oil is so cheap then we can burn that to make electricity. But, let's not dismiss existing technology out of hand. It might work even without any government help (and generic taxes are not "bailout" for any one group). We'll just have to watch. The fact Japan, Europe beat us so badly on efficiency also speaks to the idea that we could do better, if we had a policy.

Indeed, one big issue with that...the cheap price of oil. If oil is so cheap to burn for electricity, a lot of people will argue to cut that middle man...especially with here and now infrastructure for the internal combustion engine. That won't last forever of course.

Regardless, the electrical grid in the US isn't as strong as a lot of people make it out to be.

I'm not trying to crap on the idea of Tesla. I do want to point out that there are preparations that must be made if we are to switch to electric cars. Our electrical grid needs serious overhaul...we have cities with rolling brownouts during the summer due to high A/C usage in heat waves. Imagine adding morning and evening commuters to that demand! The economic effects would be devastating.

I applaud Tesla. But I hope Congress is paying attention. As usual, they are not.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
kingairta
Posts: 454
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:58 pm

GM never said it was impossible.

How people forget the EV1.

Problem is practicality. How usefull is a full charge? Is the range including running things like headlights, radio, HVAC etc etc?

I like what Tesla is doing but one thing is for sure. Tesla has one thing all the majors don't. Time.


As for Tesla complaining about Top gear I'd expect it after the poor review it got. TG was given two cars and both were non servicable for a while and needed work to get em going again.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6443
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RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:18 pm

Some numbers simply don't add up.

If we assume a small car with a milage of 35 mpg going 60 mph, then it will need a power of 25 HP or 18 kW to sustain speed.

The Tesla car has a 53 kW/h capacity battery which means just under three hours (53 / 18) of such operation. Three hours going 60 mph is 180 miles, not the advertised range = 300 miles.

You can go much further if you decrease the speed considerably. Electric motors are (contrary to gas engines) equally efficient at very low power. If you go at constant speed = 20-25 mph, then 300 miles range will certainly be reachable.

Such a 53 kW/h Li-Ion battery (the most efficient battery type known today) has a power density of 160/170 Wh/kg, so the weight will be around 800 lbs. Price tag will be in the 12-15,000 dollars frame.

Battery warranty 7 - 10 years. Yes, such a battery will still be chargeable after those years, but unless you store it in your fridge, but instead expose it to temperatures of 60-70, maybe 80 deg. F, then it will never happen. In ordinary use capacity will have degraded to way less than 50% in 4-5 years.

45 minutes charge time is possible, but such a fast charge rate is very dangerous. It may explode in case of a minor mishap or manufacturing mistake in battery or charger. If it doesn't explode it may in 5 or 10 seconds make a runaway meltdown heating the whole battery to 800-900 deg. F and destroy the whole car. Such fast charging will in addition, when everything goes well, contribute to much faster capacity degradation than if you charge it at a slower rate. Such a fast charge will with US 110V system demand some 700 amperes which alone will blow the fuses in 20-30 ordinary houses.

Some posters were dreaming about 5 minutes charge time which of course is totally unrealistic. But if we dream that it is possible, and without degrading battery chage/discharge efficiency badly, then it would require your own electric power generator with a Rolls Royce Merlin Spitfire engine running at take-off power.

It just shows that there is no easy road to getting rid of gas on our cars.

If we talk about CO2 emission, then electric cars are no-brainers unless we initiate the whole thing with a massive nuclear power buildup. As long as we cannot even supply our normal utility power with 100% wind, sun, hydro power etc, then adding our cars to that power line will only mean more coal burned. But when we talk local air quality, then electric cars are perfect.

We could of course also burn the gasoline in the electric powerplants instead of our cars. That would at least reduce the CO2 emission to half compared to coal.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
NoWorries
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:55 am

RE: Tesla Motors Unveils Electric Luxury Sedan

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:23 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Coal plants are maybe 4x as thermally efficient as gas piston engines, so that is where the efficiency comes from. Is it perfectly green, no

My thermo course was 35 years ago -- discounting senility, my vague recollection is that a good power plant will run close to 40%, a good IC engine around 25% (anyone with better or more current numbers please post) --but I don't think it's anywhere near 4X.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 41):
Regardless, the electrical grid in the US isn't as strong as a lot of people make it out to be.

 checkmark  Again, my recollection may not be perfect, but transporartion fossil fuel consumption is something like 4 or 5 times that of elelctricity production, The grid would require a serious upgrade to make a dent in this.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 43):
Such a fast charge will with US 110V system demand some 700 amperes which alone will blow the fuses in 20-30 ordinary houses.

A new construction home in the U.S. has a 100A 240V main panel -- 24KW. So a lossless charging process would take at least 2 hours (if the rest of the house goes dark).

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