BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:27 pm

As we all know, President Obama has arrived in Europe today to repair strained relations which occurred under 'you know who'.. over 'you know what'.

Anyway, the US Prez is widely popular in Europe and surely the dignitaries will be elbowing each other to death to squeeze in a picture with him. It seems with Obama's natural charisma and popularity, that healing relations are off to a good start since the Nov. 4th Election..now it's real. He's there. It ought be an interesting 8 days (agonizing for the Rush Limbaugh supporters). I'd love to hear how Pres. Obama's visit is being received by resident A.net members and their perspectives regarding this trip.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2958
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting BN747 (Thread starter):
I'd love to hear how Pres. Obama's visit is being received by resident A.net members and their perspectives regarding this trip.

I second that. I've heard that a lot of the dignitaries are skeptical about his economic policies presented thus far, and would love to hear was some of the guys on here think.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:59 pm

Just released...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/obama-aims-to-lay-ghost-of-bush-to-rest-on-european-tour-1658971.html

A CNN poll showed 86 per cent of Americans expecting Mr Obama to do "a good job" on his first major trip abroad, while Mr Obama's overall approval rating in a Washington Post poll rose to an impressive 66 per cent.

Buoyed by rising approval ratings at home, Barack Obama will face his first serious test as an international leader in London today at the start of a five-nation European tour crammed with speeches, dinners and summits as well as one-on-one meetings with counterparts from around the world.


Not a bad way to start...

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1):
I second that. I've heard that a lot of the dignitaries are skeptical about his economic policies presented thus far, and would love to hear was some of the guys on here think.

That appears to be the major consensus!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:15 am



Quoting BN747 (Thread starter):
It ought be an interesting 8 days (agonizing for the Rush Limbaugh supporters). I'd love to hear how Pres. Obama's visit is being received by resident A.net members and their perspectives regarding this trip.



Quoting BN747 (Reply 2):
A CNN poll showed 86 per cent of Americans expecting Mr Obama to do "a good job" on his first major trip abroad, while Mr Obama's overall approval rating in a Washington Post poll rose to an impressive 66 per cent.

They are a small but very vocal minority that will throw a  hissyfit  no matter what President Obama does.
Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:35 am



Quoting BN747 (Thread starter):
As we all know, President Obama has arrived in Europe today to repair strained relations which occurred under 'you know who'.. over 'you know what'.

Yes, he is so popular. Why wouldn’t he be? He insults the British PM, angers the Israelis by not backing them against terrorism, sends secret letters to Russia offering to throw Poland and other Eastern European states under the bus if they would only help with Iran, throws Tibet under the bus, insults Switzerland, bypasses the French President, reaches out to the Taliban, and on and on….such a great leader.

And to top it all off he is trying desperately to wreck the US economy, which will drag down the rest of the world with it. He has ignored warnings from China, from Britain, the EU, France, Czech Republic, and so on. Oh, yeah, he'll be the talk of the party.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
HOMER71
Posts: 2123
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:56 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:06 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 2):
Mr Obama's overall approval rating in a Washington Post poll rose to an impressive 66 per cent.

Rose to 66%? Wasn't he in the 80s a few weeks ago?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Yes, he is so popular. Why wouldn’t he be? He insults the British PM, angers the Israelis by not backing them against terrorism, sends secret letters to Russia offering to throw Poland and other Eastern European states under the bus if they would only help with Iran, throws Tibet under the bus, insults Switzerland, bypasses the French President, reaches out to the Taliban, and on and on….such a great leader.

And to top it all off he is trying desperately to wreck the US economy, which will drag down the rest of the world with it. He has ignored warnings from China, from Britain, the EU, France, Czech Republic, and so on. Oh, yeah, he'll be the talk of the party.

You're just racist, just like Angie Harmon...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511470,00.html
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5169
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:40 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
And to top it all off he is trying desperately to wreck the US economy

you make me laugh, as if going in to two wars without raising the $$ to pay for them didn't have a massive impact, remind which blow-hard was responsible for that.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:10 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 6):
you make me laugh, as if going in to two wars without raising the $$ to pay for them didn't have a massive impact, remind which blow-hard was responsible for that.

Stop listening to the propaganda and look at the numbers. Obama is spending as much as the 6 year cost of that war every 2 months. Doing 3-4% deficits that Bush ran was bad enough - Obama is running at 13%, not counting any additional "bailouts" coming down the pike.

The rest of the world knows that Obama is being irresponsible. That is why they are talking about bailing out of the dollar as the reserve currency.

[Edited 2009-03-31 19:12:01]
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:35 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
sends secret letters to Russia offering to throw Poland and other Eastern European states under the bus if they would only help with Iran,

Source?

This sounds like something another US President did. As well as a certain German dictator in the late '30's.

Both the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the Yalta Conferance are seen as supreme stabs in the back.

If Obama has done it again, he will permanantly destroy the Democratic Party's credibility in the region as well as seriously damage US-Polish relations.

As an American citizen, I'd be embarassed. As a Polish citizen I'd be enraged.

Considering with what Roosevelt did, I don't expect anything less from a Democrat. They have strong anti-Polish tendencies, with the exception of Jimmy Carter. Not that the Republicans have done anything worthwhile for us, besides Gerald Ford's insistance that the USSR doesn't control E. Europe (that famous "gaffe", really a badly phrased statement of defiance), and Ronald Reagan's token statements (Pope John Paul II and Lech Walesa get more credit in Poland for the end of the Cold War).

My family suffered greatly because of the Yalta conferance. This certainly rubs salt in the wound...


BUT, is what you are saying, Dreadnought, confirmed to be true. I mean these letters don't sound very secret...

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  

[Edited 2009-03-31 19:39:55]

[Edited 2009-03-31 19:42:16]
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:41 am



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 8):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
sends secret letters to Russia offering to throw Poland and other Eastern European states under the bus if they would only help with Iran,

Source?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/03/obama-russia-iran-nuclear

The Polish and other East European spent political capital in inviting the missile defence system in their country, believing that they would be able to benefit from its umbrella. Aparently Obama did not even consult them before making his offer to Russia.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 8):
As a Polish citizen I'd be enraged.

Although I don't think Poland is in any immediate danger, it does strike a tone of deja vu that Poland always seems to get caught in the middle.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2958
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:50 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):

Stop listening to the propaganda and look at the numbers. Obama is spending as much as the 6 year cost of that war every 2 months. Doing 3-4% deficits that Bush ran was bad enough - Obama is running at 13%, not counting any additional "bailouts" coming down the pike.

WE'RE IN A RECESSION! You can't just sit idly by hoping it gets better. We have to get money circulating again. If anything, we should be spending significantly more. The only entity that has the power (read: finances...a bit ironic, since we really don't) to stimulate a stagnant economy is the U.S. government. As much as I hate it, because it's going to cost ME and my generation in the long run, not spending any money (which seems to the Republican stance), is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. I don't support all the earmarks which the stimulus package was riddled with, but the fact is, we have to spend money. Both on the consumer side, and the investor side. The stimulus plan does just that. It's not perfect, but it is 100% moving in the right direction.

Of course Obama's term is going to have a huge deficit, we have to spend money that we don't have. Running a balanced budget, or, sadly, anything near it, right now would be absolutely catastrophic to our economy.

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 5):
Rose to 66%? Wasn't he in the 80s a few weeks ago?

No. There was one poll (CNN 2/7-2/8) that had him at 76%, but other than that, nothing higher than 70 since his inauguration. See http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...obama_job_approval-1044.html#polls for more details. I like RCP because it gives a better overall impression, since it is basically an average of the different surveys.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:51 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The Polish and other East European spent political capital in inviting the missile defence system in their country, believing that they would be able to benefit from its umbrella. Aparently Obama did not even consult them before making his offer to Russia.

Well, not consulting is just a sign of more of the same. Obama differs little from Bush in this matter.

The Missile Shield has always been a sore point on a lot of ends. A lot of people in Poland are opposed to it if it needlessly starts an arms race. But, a lot of Poles want guarantees that joining NATO will provide a realistic security benefit...especially with Russia's actions in Georgia as well as their aggressive stance towards Eastern Europe.

FYI, when the US was negotiating for the shield, they managed to piss off President Kaczynski by including a presumptuous pretyped approval letter for him to sign. Not exactly tactful...and that's even with me admitting that Kaczynski is a hyper-sensitive twit.

Europeans are not falling over each other to suck on Obama's dick here. Americans always seem to come off as arrogant, and the thread starter smacked of "our president is the best, you guys wish you had him."

To the contrary, the last 8 years featured a royal douchebag. Obama is seen as a needed breath of fresh air, but he's ruffled feathers with statements like "we're ready to lead", and his spending plan for the US economy. The jury's still out, but Obama should learn from the mistakes of his predacessor and not attach a "pretyped approval letter" with himself expecting European leaders to sign on...

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:05 am

Drednought, the more popular the President seems, the angrier righties like you seem to get.

And, sorry, he's not trying to wreck the economy. Any person, I believe, who is President of the United States, is a Patriot, and wants to do his very best for the nation. I didn't agree much with Mr. Bush, but I will never question his patriotism, or the fact that I believe he did what he thought was best. I simply didn't agree.

But this.......garbage, is the best word I can think of, that keeps coming out of the right about the President, is an embarrassment to the United States, and shows how intellectually bankrupt the conservative side of this country has become since the days of Ronald Reagan. It's nauseating.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:29 am



Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 10):
WE'RE IN A RECESSION! You can't just sit idly by hoping it gets better. We have to get money circulating again. If anything, we should be spending significantly more. The only entity that has the power (read: finances...a bit ironic, since we really don't) to stimulate a stagnant economy is the U.S. government.

You don't spend your way out of debt...Especially when you're already up to your eyeballs in it. The Congressional Budget Office has already said that they don't expect any of this to work. You can add the number of economists who have also said this level of spending is just plain irresponsible and unsustainable.

Spending aimlessly on infrastructure and other projects just repeats the mistakes the Japanese made in the 1990s. The Japanese did all of things you've mentioned and got little out of it. This revisionism of massive interventionism being the root solution is just plain wrong and those sources will show you the facts of the matter.

Source: http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/oba...omists_debt/2009/03/17/192995.html
http://gettopstocks.blogspot.com/200...-warns-obama-stimulus-package.html
http://www.moneymorning.com/2008/07/17/the-lost-decade/
http://www.reason.com/news/show/131661.html

Also notice the EU, China, and other countries have rebuffed his calls for a global stimulus package. Throwing money, especially borrowed money at the problem solves nothing.

Look at the TARP program and the bailouts of GM and Chrysler. Those are two prime examples of how ineffective spending money is.

The fact simply is this: We're uncompetitive as a nation (manufacturing, etc), we consume far too much and well beyond our means. (Look at household debt, personal savings rates, credit card debt, etc). Simply begging the US populace to spend more money as Bush and Obama have done will not solve the problem.

We're an economy based on consumer spending, often irresponsibly. We're a country with a weakening industrial base, which is not good long term and it will continue to get worse. We're not energy efficient (probably the only part of Obama's spending that I do agree with) and our education system is pathetic compared to that of our Asian allies.

Simply building new schools, roads, and waiting for people to spend whatever money we have saved does nothing to solve the problem.

It requires us to reinvent who we are, our attitudes towards education, and our sense of self entitlement....Google the story of IBM and how they had to reinvent themselves to remain solvent. The lessons from there are highly relevant to this situation.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:37 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 14):
Google the story of IBM and how they had to reinvent themselves to remain solvent.

By sending jobs to India?
Ain't I a stinker?
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:39 am



Quoting Confuscius (Reply 15):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 14):
Google the story of IBM and how they had to reinvent themselves to remain solvent.

By sending jobs to India?

On the mat he goes!

Work Right, Fly Hard
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:42 am

I myself am moved of the media reports coming in at how excited the citizens of the Europe are about the young American President's arrival. For the first time American is truly embodied in the form of man who truly represents ALL of America. This not your dad's President...it's someone who understands the 21st Century, the changes that are unstoppable along with a leader who can jump into and absorb change, grasp the understanding of it's implications and apply the attributes that come with it in a most positive way. He represents New Age America (yes, it has a caravan of troglodytes kicking, screaming, biting and resisting all the way)..but change comes whether we want itor not.

A good cross section of America, young & old, white, black, Asian, Latino, Native American, gay & lesbian must feel for the 1st time ever...someone who 'actually' does understand and can identify with them as a people and relate to their wishes, desires, dreams and goals... flows natually thru the aura of this man. He's making an enormous cross section of Americans feel included and represented on the world stage for the very 1st time in their lives. Many have waited a lifetime for this moment. Select Americans have felt this way generation after generation..but now the reach is vast and gone farther than ever before. It all could not be placed in a more capable pair of hands. Good luck, Mr. President...do us proud.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:48 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):

Boy, are the righties gonna flame your butt for this one.  rotfl 

You're correct, of course, but they just can't stand the fact that the world never accepted Mr. Bush, and respect and admire Mr. Obama. It infuriates them to no end.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:55 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):

Boy, are the righties gonna flame your butt for this one. rotfl

You know I don't shrink from controversy...

In the infamous words of their 'hero' (small h)..."Bring it on"

..actually there's no need for me to fight with them...the sheer and staggering global adulation will cause them more agony than I ever could.

BN747

[Edited 2009-03-31 20:58:50]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:10 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
You're correct, of course, but they just can't stand the fact that the world never accepted Mr. Bush, and respect and admire Mr. Obama. It infuriates them to no end.

It is knowing they are wrong that makes them so mad. (Traduced from Flanders M).

Fascinating thread. Up until today, I did not know that FDR was a signatory to the Molotov Ribbentrop pact (Reply 8) although I did know about the Yalta capers. The things you learn on a.net - if you are not careful, but then again, it is April 1.
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:13 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 19):
..actually there's no need for me to fight with them...the sheer and staggering global adulation will cause them more agony than I ever could.

Winning popularity contests doesn't mean anything...I was never a big fan of Mr. Bush either, so I'm not discounting his failures as President. Results matter and so fair it's not that great.

The global markets have given him quite the global adulation.....See the Dow lately and the dollar tanking? That's the global response to our policies right now.

Economists give him a failing grade:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123671107124286261.html

Those same EU leaders you're talking about are wary too:
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...wary-world-leaders-2009-03-28.html

And the Chinese are worried about buying our debt:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=aVq1dGC2ozoY&refer=home
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:17 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Drednought, the more popular the President seems, the angrier righties like you seem to get.

Well, I don't care for popularity polls. Half of the population is dumber than toast anyway. I think we've both lived long enough to figure that out.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Any person, I believe, who is President of the United States, is a Patriot, and wants to do his very best for the nation. I didn't agree much with Mr. Bush, but I will never question his patriotism, or the fact that I believe he did what he thought was best. I simply didn't agree.

I used to believe that. Things looked hopeful during the transition when Obama was giving some signs of wanting to governm from the center. And to be fair, sometimes he still does on small issue.

But Obama is not alone in this. You have him, Ried, Pelosi, Frank, Dodd, and Rangel in Congress who are all in charge of, if not the house or senate, the most critical committees at this time. All of them are hard-left redistributionists (maybe a little less so with Ried and Dodd - they're just rotten). Their philosophy is divide and conquer - bash on the top 20 or so % of the nation and give their money to the rest, knowing that people will vote for whoever is giving them stuff. It does not matter to them whether the country grows or is prosperous - their interest is relative to political power.

To be honest, it is a very, very powerful strategy. Get the unions on your side. Get the government employees on your side (a conservative government would want to downsize - gov't employees won't ever vote for that). Get minorities on your side by talking about amnesty, reparations and redistribution. Get a lot of the poor people by getting them angry at rich people (I hope you saw the ACORN protests a couple of weeks ago). Get the census under direct political control to control redistricting. Give amnesty to all the illegals who will give Democrats an extra 10 million votes in gratitude.

It doesn't matter if the economy tanks, because wealth is always relative. I remember seeing a study not long ago where people were asked which situation would they prefer (I'm paraphrasing here):

A) You make $50K per year, and most of your friends and neighbors make $25,000

B) You make $100K per year, and most of your friends and neighbors make $200,000

Most people chose A). People would rather be closer to the top than for everyone to be more prosperous, but with themselves closer to the bottom.

And then you have the philosophy of Creative Destruction, which was a tennent of all the people Obama was trained by and idolized in his early days (not to mention poeple like Marx and Mao), who said that if a capitalist society refuses to convert towards socialism, you must gain enough control of it to bankrupt it. In the depths of despair, people will be willing to give the necessary power to government, allowing to creat this "ideal" society.

"What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be...Dostoevski said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system

- Saul Alinsky

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a26bacc210.jpg

Remember that Obama was not only a student of Alinsky's writings, but actually TAUGHT Alinsky. BTW, One of Alinsky's actual students was a young Hillary Rodham.

So yeah, I worry now that the man that we've elected, unlike any other previous president Republican or Democrat, might not actually want prosperity for the country, that he might want to push for an economic meltdown that would allow for a revolution.

Maybe I give Obama too much credit - maybe what's going on is not some grand design but rather sheer incompetance. But the circumstantial evidence is striking.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:28 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Well, I don't care for popularity polls.

 rotfl 

That's good, because conservatives aren't very popular these days, are they?

I imagine you had no problem with said polls when Bush's numbers where high.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
So yeah, I worry now that the man that we've elected, unlike any other previous president Republican or Democrat, might not actually want prosperity for the country

If you REALLY believe that, you, in my mind, abrogate your standing as a good American. Sorry, but I think that is nonsense. And you wonder why I question people like Michelle Bachmann? Same mindset.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:32 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 20):
But doesn't that mask the problem? The problem is no one knows what these assets are worth right now.

The value of anything becomes more clear over time. Go to a flea market and try to sell, say, your old dishware. How much do you sell it for. Wait a little while, walk around the market, listen to people bartering - eventually the market price becomes clear.

The problem came in a short period of time when the market froze and there were no buyers, and mark-to-market forced financial institutions to revalue their portfolios right away, forcing otherwise healthy companies to post huge losses to their P&L, even if their cash flow was untouched. Those losses were often enough to create an upside-down balance sheet and effective bankruptcy.

My proposal of a 3-year delay would allow a 3 year period for these assets to rightsize themselves. There probably would be losses, but nothing like what we saw, and nothing warranting a huge bailout.

But recinding mark-to-market would have been an admission by the government that their own rule was a mistake. That would never do. Better to blame the banks and the markets, and use the opportunity for a power grab.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:57 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Well, I don't care for popularity polls.

rotfl

That's good, because conservatives aren't very popular these days, are they?

I imagine you had no problem with said polls when Bush's numbers where high.

They aren't exactly unpopular either:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...eneric_congressional_vote-901.html

Getting back to the original theme, it's fine that Obama is mending ties with those abroad. But realize at the end of the day our allies have slightly different agendas than ours.

Germany for instance seems to have retained its sanity and is very much against spending aimlessly.

Merkel: "German Chancellor Angela Merkel has reiterated that she does not favor a new package of economic stimulus measures despite US calls for more spending as world leaders prepare for a G20 meeting in London.

"We do not think much of the idea of a new package of measures" to underpin the economy, Merkel told a press conference in Munich on Friday, March 13, after a meeting with employers."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4095549,00.html

And Gordon Brown is having trouble selling UK's debt binge:

"he first failed British bond auction in more than seven years leaves Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s reputation for economic competence even more tarnished as he battles recession and a rising tide of voter anger.

Brown, who had the backing of 30 percent of the electorate in a ComRes Ltd. poll last week, must now cope with what amounts to a vote of no confidence by investors in his ability to end the recession. Bank of England Governor Mervyn King, his ally for much of the past decade, warned a day earlier that there’s no more money for further spending. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=amPQ1sDv8PFU&refer=home
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:34 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 22):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 19):
..actually there's no need for me to fight with them...the sheer and staggering global adulation will cause them more agony than I ever could.

Winning popularity contests doesn't mean anything...I was never a big fan of Mr. Bush either, so I'm not discounting his failures as President. Results matter and so fair it's not that great.

And that's where in the real world you're wrong my friend. You can say you weren't no fan of Bush..but you were defending him like you were on payroll. But that's beside the point.

Do you know why 'Bad (expensive) Movies get made? Everyone wonders about that at least once in their life (if the see films). I once witnessed Mel Brooks getting a sizable chunk of cash (from said studio) to make a film that everyone JUST KNEW was gonna go into the toilet (aka..straight to DVD)..I couldn't figure it out for the life of me why this was done. Then I started seeing it repeatedly everywhere I looked...and a few years later..it dawned on me. People in power 'liked' these people...period, it had nothing to do with the promise of a good return. Look at Bernie Madoff..people 'liked' him. Look further, look deeper, George Bush hired ONLY those he liked (he says trusted), if you can find a way to long into the inner workings of virtually any business on the planet..you'll discover people can't help themselves but to play 'favorites'..but no one admits to it. Sure..everyone rambles 'Oh yeah..it's all who you know"..when people say that, they have no idea how deep that statement reaches..NONE! Without even knowing a person, we as people gravitate towards 'good looking people'..some gaze far longer than others. Now imagine that person coming up and talking to you, engaging you..you are suddenly near hypnotic, they won you over effortlessly. If you're not extremely attractive (and or charismatic) see how well you can do that!?! Winning people over (yes popularity contest) is half the game. The victory. I can't stand stupid shows like Bachelor, Dancing with Stars, American Idol...but the masses are captivated..the makers/producers knows how trivial and superficial the masses are. Very easy to win. I'm not dumb, I can see that there's money to made on peddling crap..even if I don't like it..a smart businessman puts his personal feelings aside and sells to the buying public whatever it is that they want..regardless of how insipid it may be.

Popularity contest not important? It is how one gets elected domestically, staying popular is how you stay on the job. In Obama's case it is so intense it is transcending borders. Popularity as I said is have the equation. The other half is 'substance', (talent, skills and capability factors). Obama is clearly a well-educated man and I am sure his true talents lie within his skull..not his exterior. His world class fame at this moment MUST be overwhelming even him. I'm certain he had no idea things would get this big, this out of control (popularity wise). This is why I believe he stammered with Judge Roberts at his inaugural...his mind was racing against the tide of the coming reality and collided with his long-standing base of common sense and learned knowledge.. he so wanted it to go so perfect (he must have rehearsed it 1000 times) that excitement, collided with memory collided with Roberts doing his 1st inaugural (mind you a Historic one) and he also being a brainiac..it happens. Obama can easily become a victim of his enormous popularity in the EXACT same way as a actor who suddenly, out of nowhere, rockets to top! They simply get overwhelmed by it all...the difference stars/actors can take 3 months to 2 years off and regroup, a luxury Obama cannot will not ever be able to afford. So he must now be able to handle what is happening 10x better than the average person. In his wildest dreams he never imagined World Leaders acting like school girls in his presence. Maintaining composure in the face of all that....now that's pressure.


Popularity is priceless, nothing to scoff at .. ever. By saying "Winning popularity contests doesn't mean anything.." reminds me of people repeating the oft too foolish "Money can't buy happiness"...the most successful and clever mantra the weathy ever invented. The reality and flip side of that equation is '...Poverty' sure as hell CAN buy sadness.' As much as you can handle and more! Just take a look at the line of people racing to be 'well off' vs the line of people rushing to get poor...that lane is always wide open.


"Winning popularity contests doesn't mean anything.." is spoken by people who fail to recognize the best tools to achieving success in the arena of human competition.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:42 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):
I myself am moved of the media reports coming in at how excited the citizens of the Europe are about the young American President's arrival. ...
bla bla bla
.... It all could not be placed in a more capable pair of hands. Good luck, Mr. President...do us proud.

Man, that's just hysterical... or do I just not get your sense of humor?
Had you been a young North Korean living in a totalitarian bubble isolated from the world writing an essay about his Dear Leader it would be somewhat understandable to be so infantile, but your profile says you are not and even are old enough to know better.
Get real, he is just a politican, not second coming of Jesus (of Mohammed?), rock star or your favorite movie character.
Not to mention that under current circumstances the meetings in Europe will be far from easy and if it not happened already the honeymoom will end within the next couple of days.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
the world never accepted Mr. Bush, and respect and admire Mr. Obama.

Let's see how far he'll get with agenda of being Mr. Not George Bush...!?!?
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:18 am

Yes he has arrived; landed at STN which had to shut down for an hour to accomodate the demands of his entourage; at least it wasn't LHR this time, unlike his predecessor.

Totally escapes me though why he can't use Mildenhall, which we graciously allow the US Government to occupy 30 miles down the road.

It seems to me that for "a man of the people" he has quickly aquired the trappings of the head of an African tin pot state (large fleet of aircraft, armoured limousines, huge gun toting entourage etc)

Quite why any person needs 500 travelling support staff, plus an aircraft carrier escapes me.

Whilst our own PM Gordon Brown, agrees with the Obama "spend other peoples money like its gone out of fashion" policy, it appears that the leaders of France and Germany disagree, thus tomorrows G20 conference is likely to acheive nothing, other than putting a lot of overtime money into the pockets of the half the police in Southern England.

Watching the breakfast news this morning, the people interviewed didn't exactly seem enthusiastic about having their lives disrupted by presidential cavalcades, and numerous protests.
 
UAXDXer
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:36 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:48 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 28):
Get real, he is just a politican, not second coming of Jesus (of Mohammed?), rock star or your favorite movie character.

You had better check that line of thinking at the door buddy or else! You must not have been watching TV, or read any periodicals in the last year or you would be thinking otherwise. Obams IS the second coming of Jesus/Mohammed, he is a rock star and your favorite actor all rolled into one. Now that he is POTUS you no longer have to worry about paying rent or putting gas in your car. You can go and buy a GM car and he personally will guarentee your warrenty. Worried about losing your job? Don't! Life on Obama welfare is great!

Here is a big glass of Kool-Aid.... better start drinking up!!

Oh.... and have you seen MIchelle's arms??? Aren't they just fabulous?

[Edited 2009-04-01 02:52:04]
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:37 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 26):
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4095549,00.html

And Gordon Brown is having trouble selling UK's debt binge:

"he first failed British bond auction in more than seven years leaves Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s reputation for economic competence even more tarnished as he battles recession and a rising tide of voter anger.

I do hate to rain on your parade with a little more of the story.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...ory/0,28124,25249754-36418,00.html

Strong demand for British treasuries brings market relief

INVESTORS scrambled to buy £1.1 billion ($2.26 billion) in British Government bonds yesterday.
The Debt Management Office reported that it had received nearly £3 billion in bids for the gilts.

The markets had been nervous after the previous auction of 40-year gilts, which became the first offer to fail since 2002.


But until just now, I had no idea that Gordy was going to pass the moolah on to his cash strapped mate from over the waters. Nice to have friends who can help I suppose.

Maybe it would be an idea to wait until it all fails before trumpeting it too loudly. And we know why the 1933 meeting failed.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:05 am



Quoting BN747 (Thread starter):
I'd love to hear how Pres. Obama's visit is being received by resident A.net members and their perspectives regarding this trip.

It is the first major summit with a post-imperial US president again. And as such he is highly welcome here with a big sigh of relief; That would be the case even if he wasn't as charismatic as Obama happens to be.

That said, this is above all a working summit where relatively concrete results are expected (and demanded) from the assembled leaders.

The most important topic will probably be the issue of improved regulation of the financial markets. But even though the situations of the respective countries are quite diverse (even within Europe) there will be attempts to find a common approach and some structures for cooperation in mastering the self-created crash of the financial system and the resulting economic crisis.

From my perspective the biggest and most important change from Bush to Obama will be a change from "We already know all the solutions — you can only choose to be with or against us! Sign here!" to a much more appropriate "Let's talk about our and your views of the situation and let's try to find a common solution!" which of course finds a lot more appreciation.

Obama basically returns the USA to a sincere dialog with the international partners from the strictly unilateral preaching by his immediate predecessor. That is the essential cause for the overwhelming feeling of relief at this time, and most of us abroad do indeed wallow in it for a bit.

Of course the initial relief will subside eventually, but the absence of the constant aggravation by a rigidly ideological and aggressively incompetent US leadership will make life much easier and probably more constructive for all involved, including the americans themselves.

We've had almost a lost decade on the international level. It is high time that we start cleaning up the mess. And Obama at least seems to be man enough for a job as tough as that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
My god, you need one of those cult de-brainwashing clinics. Just keep repeating the mantras...

Sorry, but cult-like fanatical adherence to a discredited ideology appears to be your own trademark first and foremost.

We for our part are simply relieved that there will be actual discussions again, without rigid ideology or authoritarian demands being the only things coming from one of the participants.

The Bush administration seemed incapable of acknowledging flaws in their ideological policies or even correcting them; Obama promises to take a much more pragmatic approach, analyzing the situation without prejudice, taking action and correcting the policy if necessary. We'll have to see if this will in fact be the way they'll operate, but so far the attitude looks a lot more constructive — and more likely to succeed — than their predecessors'.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
The Keynsian pholisophy that you keep repeating has been proven to be bunk over and over again. Heavy deficit spending has NEVER EVER worked.

The decisive point is where the spending goes. The past decades with excessive waste, consumption, debt and greed in some countries were obviously a huge mistake; Especially when essential infrastructure and productive resources have been neglected at the same time.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
None of these bailouts were necessary.

True. Had there been proper regulation of the financial markets, it could all have been avoided quite handily!  mischievous 

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 20):
"The head of the European Union slammed President Barack Obama's plan to spend nearly $2 trillion to push the U.S. economy out of recession as "the road to hell" that EU governments must avoid."

The sitting president of the EU is not the "head" of the EU in an executive sense. He/she invites to EU summits and has some influence on their agenda, but no executive power. The post is rotated among all EU heads of government biannually.

In this case it was czech prime minister Mirek Topolanek who uttered this aggressive commentary, which was immediately criticized and rebuffed pretty much universally by other european leaders. Incidentally, his remarks came shortly after Topolanek was toppled from his national office by a vote of no confidence in the czech parliament, so it is quite likely that his frustration spilled over into his speech before the European Parliament, where it was rebuked as well. Depending on the political situation at home (election of a PM successor), he may or may not serve out his term as EU president.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 22):
Winning popularity contests doesn't mean anything...I was never a big fan of Mr. Bush either, so I'm not discounting his failures as President. Results matter and so fair it's not that great.

The global markets have given him quite the global adulation.....See the Dow lately and the dollar tanking? That's the global response to our policies right now.

Rubbish. It is clearly the chicken coming home to roost after several decades of misdirected economic policy. Obama simply inherited the job of cleaning up the mess for his several predecessors, going back all the way to Ronald Reagan. Of course he can make mistakes (and probably will), but the disastrous situation right now has begun to unfold under Bush and will be difficult to contain for many months, if not years.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Well, I don't care for popularity polls. Half of the population is dumber than toast anyway. I think we've both lived long enough to figure that out.

The past eight years with total failures of judgment on almost every level would particularly seem to make your point.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
So yeah, I worry now that the man that we've elected, unlike any other previous president Republican or Democrat, might not actually want prosperity for the country, that he might want to push for an economic meltdown that would allow for a revolution.

Your ideological fanaticism really seems to get the better of you by now.  no 

You should try to remember that democracy has as an essential basis the willingness to engage in a debate for the common good with the acknowledgment that oneself might be wrong as well. Hardened ideologies end up in disaster pretty much every time as we have seen.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Maybe I give Obama too much credit - maybe what's going on is not some grand design but rather sheer incompetance. But the circumstantial evidence is striking.

If your power of judgment is really supposed to be so acute, where has it been through the past eight years? On permanent vacation?  eyebrow 

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 26):
Getting back to the original theme, it's fine that Obama is mending ties with those abroad. But realize at the end of the day our allies have slightly different agendas than ours.

Germany for instance seems to have retained its sanity and is very much against spending aimlessly.

Germany has a pretty comprehensive social system already, our infrastructure is in good shape and we have no debt crisis. The situations relative to the USA are very different, even with some of our banks having gambled a few billions away in the anglo-american casino, so our response can't simply be the same as the american one.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 29):
It seems to me that for "a man of the people" he has quickly aquired the trappings of the head of an African tin pot state (large fleet of aircraft, armoured limousines, huge gun toting entourage etc)

Nonsense. Most of that is strictly mandated by the Secret Service and the Pentagon and not an individual choice. It is pretty certain that they already cringe at Obama's public appearances among crowds which are not pre-vetted and hand-picked as Bush's audiences generally were.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:40 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 26):
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4095549,00.html

And Gordon Brown is having trouble selling UK's debt binge:

"he first failed British bond auction in more than seven years leaves Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s reputation for economic competence even more tarnished as he battles recession and a rising tide of voter anger.


I do hate to rain on your parade with a little more of the story.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au....html

It most definitley failed, somewhere along the line by the time the story reached Australia it had altered. If you read the extract you linked to, this mentions at one point that it failed, but the headline suggests otherwise.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 29):
It seems to me that for "a man of the people" he has quickly aquired the trappings of the head of an African tin pot state (large fleet of aircraft, armoured limousines, huge gun toting entourage etc)

Nonsense. Most of that is strictly mandated by the Secret Service and the Pentagon and not an individual choice. It is pretty certain that they already cringe at Obama's public appearances among crowds which are not pre-vetted and hand-picked as Bush's audiences generally were.

Who's in charge then; the president or his entourage ?
If as you suggest the Secret Service and the Pentagon tell him what to do, whats that make him ?

IMO it smacks of arrogance to arrive in the land of your supposed ally, shutdown a major international airport, and import your own private army.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6661
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:41 am

I'll add a cpuple points.
1. How popular a political leader is among his peers does not mean the polulous follows. The Saudi Govt., Pakistan Govt. all friendly with the US political leadership, what about the people?

2. Bill Clinton was a popular president in Europe, how about the people on the street, the "bad feeling" towards Bush did not start with his presidency.

3. The EU and some European nations say spending your way out of recession is a bad thing, being a layman lets say I take their word for it. Here's the question, why were they so opposed to the buy American clause that was being put in the US stimulus package? If I understand what the stimulus package was, the US would spend govt. backed money to buy it's own products, were they saying its OK to spend your way out of a recession as long as you are buying someone else's products?

4. All articles I have read so far seem to indicate that the best to be expected from this summit is a refinancing or restructuring of the IMF, the same body which a lot of third world countries have been fighting against for years due to its onerous policies which indebts those nations to the developed world for millenia - World Bank included -.

5. Europe is also continuing on its march against so called "tax cheat nations and abettors' something which was initiated during the Clinton terms, slowed down during the Bush term, and will now probably take off again as Obama is an advocate, so look for something along those lines to come along.

Will be an interest few days.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:47 am



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
Who's in charge then; the president or his entourage ?
If as you suggest the Secret Service and the Pentagon tell him what to do, whats that make him ?

Staying alive.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
IMO it smacks of arrogance to arrive in the land of your supposed ally, shutdown a major international airport, and import your own private army.

It will likely be due to security considerations. (Security of the respective airport and of the roads to the summit venue.)
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:59 am



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 30):
Oh.... and have you seen MIchelle's arms??? Aren't they just fabulous?

She has more class than someone who tries to pick on the first lady for no reason.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:43 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
Sorry, but cult-like fanatical adherence to a discredited ideology appears to be your own trademark first and foremost.

And here I was thinking that it was your trademark whenever the topic of the discussion was the infalilble EU.  scratchchin 
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:46 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
IMO it smacks of arrogance to arrive in the land of your supposed ally, shutdown a major international airport, and import your own private army.

It will likely be due to security considerations. (Security of the respective airport and of the roads to the summit venue.)

Firstly, he didn't use any roads, it was AF1 into STN & then Marine 1 to Regents Park, adjacent to the US embassy.

If he had chosen to use Mildenhall., which is a USAF base, all personnel on site have US security clearance, and the site has been fully secure for many years; surely better than STN ?
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:06 pm

I do like Obama and have high hopes for him, but let's not overstate his track record or capabilities. He, in the words of (liberal) New Yorker columnist George Packer, is "a cold-eyed, shrewd politician."

I do think he is capable of some great things, but let's wait until he proves himself before we go around beating our chest that our leader is a world- changer.

I think perhaps the fascination with him is more novelty than anything else (he breaks the white man mold). And let's face it, he and his wife are a delight to look at, and seem to be interesting people, and that doesn't hurt.

As a side note about this particular tour:

Considering that a number of EU anetters got their panties in a wad over the "US Is Ready To Lead" comment (see thread of the same name), I'm sure this didn't go over too well:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...0-obama2-2009apr02,0,2289240.story

Obama tells Europe he'll listen -- and lead

At a joint appearance with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, he downplays differences on how to solve the world's economic problems.

Reporting from London -- President Barack Obama said this morning that he is in Britain to hear what other world leaders have to say about the global economic meltdown, but also to offer leadership to help guide them all out of it.

"I came here to put forward ideas," Obama said. "But I also came here to listen, not to lecture. . . . We must not miss the opportunity to lead."


I would have preferred that he sounded a tad less arrogant with these comments, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he means it in a cooperative way.

BTW, where are all the comments from EU anetters?
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:57 pm

Actually it's a hell here in Strasbourg. There are cops and "Gendarmes" everywhere.
The town center will be locked friday, the highways will be closed, the public transportation stopped, the main hospitals closed (reserved for the NATO meeting participants and the future injured opponents), the inhabitants close to the Rhein and the one in front of the airport have the obligation to let their shutters closed (snipers will make that rule followed).

There's a strange feeling to live outside a democracy for 1 day.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:05 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 2):
Buoyed by rising approval ratings at home,

In the CNN and Washington Post polls (are they even scientific polls?) yes, but in others like the Gallup, Rasmussen, and Zogby polls, his ratings are declining and his disapproval ratings are climbing.

I'd hardly take CNN and WP polls as an accurate cross-section. I'd say approval-wise he's doing the same to slightly worse than he was doing Jan 20th, which is average.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8524
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:16 pm

Well the Bobbies are certainly loving all the moronic anarchists who thought it would play well for the camera and their pathetic agenda to break into the Royal Bank of Scotland this morning...seriously, for people who claim to be intellectuals, it doesn't get any more stupid.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:31 pm



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 43):
I do like Obama and have high hopes for him, but let's not overstate his track record or capabilities. He, in the words of (liberal) New Yorker columnist George Packer, is "a cold-eyed, shrewd politician."

This is not the 1st time I've heard this as well, I've heard this and harsher terms to describe O as being incredibly shrewd and swiftly ruthless. If true...and I believe it to be so.. it is the perfect book-end for the man who comes off as the nice guy, the people's president. I believe to genuinely be 'a nice guy' but having that darker side is a necessary evil, if you will, in order to deal effectively with politicians (worldwide) of equally crafty, cagey and well-hidden agendas. It is comforting to know that the man is not a fool.. that he can play the role of the 'good guy' in the 'white hat' .... yet in the blink of an eye...he can 'guillotine' a political rival or associate before the guy knew what hit him! This is successful combination in any business...esp. one as the nature of politics where an ally today can be a lethal-enemy the next hour or next day. Politicians beneath their 'public veneer' are very much like street thugs..they know their moves must be calculated and well-coordinated and they respond to pressure and fear,..quickly (not always correctly) but they're in a business where looking out for your own hide (almost) guarantees you to survive til the next day. As the saying goes 'politics is a nasty business'...there's good reason for saying so.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:02 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 40):
And here I was thinking that it was your trademark whenever the topic of the discussion was the infalilble EU.

Just bring a quote and link of me saying that and we can talk.

In the absence of that, maybe you should re-examine your own projections.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 43):
Considering that a number of EU anetters got their panties in a wad over the "US Is Ready To Lead" comment (see thread of the same name), I'm sure this didn't go over too well:



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 43):
"I came here to put forward ideas," Obama said. "But I also came here to listen, not to lecture. . . . We must not miss the opportunity to lead."

From the way he put it he was apparently talking about the assembled leaders showing collective leadership, not himself leading everybody else. If that quote is correct I see no reason for criticism.
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:28 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 34):
It is very presumptuous to assume that your president is beloved by all in Europe and downright ignorant to label someone more skeptical of him as a Bush lover. Ironically, a similar tactic that Bush used.

THIS is the behavior that earns Americans their bad name abroad.

Okay, this is so far off the mark it borders being offensive.

First of all tune in to any channel reporting on Pres. O's trip and 'listen' to the words describing his presence in Europe. Yesterday (and you hear it again by visiting CNN, MSNBC and virtually any other news website) all they kept saying was 'he is wildly popular across Europe!'

Secondly, Obama's Berlin appearance/speech as a mere Senator..proved that from the enormous crowd he drew..no US senator or Congressman has ever done that. Never!

Thirdly and most importantly, I grew up traveling abroad, never living in one place more than 2 years. Once on my own traveling for me blew up exponentially. I myself was in all over Europe when Reagan was in office - from Greece to Sweden to England and many countries in between..my personal experiences from interacting with locals revealed (not surprisingly) that Reagan was despised across the continent! But being politically attune.. I knew this before I arrived, it was only shocking to more conservative travel bud.

I was also traveling extensively under Bush I (Europe no so nuts about him either) BUT again as I travelled under Bush II's reign..I don't need to tell you how much that guy was hated in Europe. So please go pitch that 'assuming your president is popular in Europe and earning a bad name for Americans abroad' nonsense to someone who doesn't know any better...don't even try that with me, I've not needed someone to explain that one to me ever..I've lived it. I know what gives American's a bad name abroad, and chiefly, it is the arrogant ugly American (read the book if you haven't). And the ugly American is most likely to be a conservative vs a liberal, lefty, progressive or whatever political affiliation you wish to ascribe him/her. Please feel free to ask me to explain that in great detail if you wish..I'd be all to happy to do so. And by all means feel free (as you have so far) expand on what exactly you think it is.

As for Let410's labeling as a Bush Lover, his own words speak for themselves. He painted himself in that corner.

Care to retract any of those bogus assumptions?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
From my perspective the biggest and most important change from Bush to Obama will be a change from "We already know all the solutions — you can only choose to be with or against us! Sign here!" to a much more appropriate "Let's talk about our and your views of the situation and let's try to find a common solution!" which of course finds a lot more appreciation.

Obama basically returns the USA to a sincere dialog with the international partners from the strictly unilateral preaching by his immediate predecessor. That is the essential cause for the overwhelming feeling of relief at this time, and most of us abroad do indeed wallow in it for a bit.

Of course the initial relief will subside eventually, but the absence of the constant aggravation by a rigidly ideological and aggressively incompetent US leadership will make life much easier and probably more constructive for all involved, including the americans themselves.

We've had almost a lost decade on the international level. It is high time that we start cleaning up the mess. And Obama at least seems to be man enough for a job as tough as that.

A well-expressed sentiment that I've felt leading up to Nov. 4, 2008. I commented to a room of friends as we watched the election returns come in..." this decision is going to determine the conditions in which the US moves forward among the world's nations. A McCain win pretty much tells the world 'the US is now permanently on it's own frequency, you (other nations) may speak..but like under Bush, it means nothing' ... an Obama win (based on the how the candidate presents himself) means US credibility is almost instantly restored a full 3 months before the man takes office based on anticipation"... it was that obvious. Let's just see how this trip unfolds.

BN747

[Edited 2009-04-01 08:46:58]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:39 pm



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
Who's in charge then; the president or his entourage ?
If as you suggest the Secret Service and the Pentagon tell him what to do, whats that make him ?

Considering the raison d'être of the Secret Service is the protection of the President, it's true, that he doesn't get much say in the way things are done. Maybe in little ways here and there but by and large, no.

Furthermore, considering that the POTUS is probably the number one person ripe for assassination by both organizations and people who are diametrically opposed to the very being on the United States and nutjobs who just want to get their face on the evening news (John Hinckley Jr anyone?), there are worse things. I'd rather a million people... I'd rather 5 million be inconvenienced with road closures than one person be killed for his job (and that goes the same for the secret service agents who are in the line of fire).

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:07 pm



Quoting LH423 (Reply 50):
Furthermore, considering that the POTUS is probably the number one person ripe for assassination by both organizations and people who are diametrically opposed to the very being on the United States and nutjobs who just want to get their face on the evening news (John Hinckley Jr anyone?), there are worse things. I'd rather a million people... I'd rather 5 million be inconvenienced with road closures than one person be killed for his job (and that goes the same for the secret service agents who are in the line of fire).

If a job makes you the no 1 assassination target in the World; it might well be time to consider quite why that is the case.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:09 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 49):
A well-expressed sentiment that I've felt leading up to Nov. 4, 2008. I commented to a room of friends as we watched the election returns come in..." this decision is going to determine the conditions in which the US moves forward among the world's nations. A McCain win pretty much tells the world 'the US is now permanently on it's own frequency, you (other nations) may speak..but like under Bush, it means nothing' ... an Obama win (based on the how the candidate presents himself) means US credibility is almost instantly restored a full 3 months before the man takes office based on anticipation"... it was that obvious.

On the emotional side, that's probably a fair description of most people's reactions. Of course even McCain would have been a major improvement already, but he would have been greeted more with a sigh of resignation than with open arms...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 49):
Let's just see how this trip unfolds.

Indeed. Some expectations will of course have to be disappointed, but there are some real chances for progress.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:11 pm



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 51):
If a job makes you the no 1 assassination target in the World; it might well be time to consider quite why that is the case.

Controversial policies are just a part of the equation. A wide assortment of mentally disturbed people simply react to the elevated status and the visibility — plus, of course, in Obama's case a bunch of neonazis and other racists. If you want to draw a division line between the groups at all, that is...!  mischievous 
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:59 am

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:20 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):



Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):
myself am moved of the media reports coming in at how excited the citizens of the Europe are about the young American President's arrival.

Excitement? Take a walkie around London's financial district. Lot's of excitement there. Let's all hold our collective breath and not suffocate shall we?

LOL
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: US Pres Obama Arrives In Europe

Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:44 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
I do hate to rain on your parade with a little more of the story.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...ory/0,28124,25249754-36418,00.html

Note the shorter duration of those bonds that actually sold. The ones that failed miserably were the 40 yr version.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 27):
His world class fame at this moment MUST be overwhelming even him. I'm certain he had no idea things would get this big, this out of control (popularity wise).

Like I said, it's not a bad thing, but the results matter. Kennedy was widely popular but one botched summit with Khruschev and we had the Berlin Wall and Cuban Missile crisis.

Mr. Clinton was also quite popular too, but his good performance more or less backed that up.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
Rubbish. It is clearly the chicken coming home to roost after several decades of misdirected economic policy. Obama simply inherited the job of cleaning up the mess for his several predecessors, going back all the way to Ronald Reagan.

Can you find a consensus on that by reputable non-partisan economists? Hardly, I've posted several links citing what economists are saying about Obama's policies. Markets are forward looking, and they don't like what they see.

And how is Reagan responsible for any of this? That's grasping at straws. Mr Reagan inherited quite the mess from President Carter. Reagan grew the economy by one Third in just eight years with 17 MILLION new jobs created. Unemployment was 7.6 % when he took office and 5.5 % when he left. Average Americans saw an increase in GDP/Capita by $4,000.

Sounds like the average American was better off...If you're going to mention deregulation, then maybe you should remember that the deregulation of Airlines and Trucking had already occurred under Carter and was spreading to Telecoms, Banks, etc.

The first President Bush was responsible for setting the stage for the economic boom in the late 90's. Google the Congressional Budget Agreement of 1990. He and Democrats agreed to sharp reductions in spending and President Clinton wisely continued those policies.

The only mistake President Clinton made was his misguided approach to pushing home ownership through any means necessary. Google the Community Reinvestment Act, the irresponsible expansion of Fannie Mae, and the relaxed lending standards that followed. The majority of economists have pointed at this as the root cause of the current crisis.

Mr. Bush did not help things with his tax cut and spend ways. Nor did ordinary Americans who racked up credit card debt and bought houses they couldn't afford.

As for Mr. Obama:
Source:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...a/2009/03/first_bush_now_obama.cfm

I've already posted a link to the majority of economists giving him a failing grade. Looking the National Debt of the US, Mr. Bush was responsible for the latest increase to 10 TRILLION, but Obama's policies may add an additional 10 Trillion to it.

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090320/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_budget

Hmm deficit spending 4-5% of GDP? Maybe you should look at the EU and see why they punish members with spending above 3%....

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], blacksoviet, dfwjim1, einsteinboricua, jpetekyxmd80, pu, Scorpio and 19 guests