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TripleDelta
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Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:42 pm

... with the addition of two superpowers, Albania and Croatia  biggrin .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7977332.stm

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-6F8CF...D-29EDD8F7/natolive/news_52342.htm

Maybe we can form a joint MiG-19/21 fighting force to show the West how it's done!  biggrin 
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RussianJet
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:18 pm

NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact. Seriously, it is outmoded, unnecessary and pointless.
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:24 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact. Seriously, it is outmoded, unnecessary and pointless.

A local analyst has said (read it on a local portal) that the effect Albania and Croatia can have in NATO is very small to nonexistent. Apart from support missions in Afghanistan, there isn't all that much either can do, that's true. Logistics and equipment are the main problems, not so much the will and commitment...
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BMI727
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:29 pm



Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
with the addition of two superpowers, Albania and Croatia

Don't be hating on the Albanians and Croatians. They can hand out food as well as anyone else.
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RussianJet
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:36 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Don't be hating on the Albanians and Croatians

Errr, hating? Apart from the fact that the OP is from Croatia, it was clearly a joke. Please let's get a sense of proportion. Hand out food? Hmm, well if that was we in NATO's primary objective and reason for existence then I would be rather more in favour of this ridiculous, outmoded alliance.
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BMI727
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:41 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
it was clearly a joke

As was I.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
Hand out food? Hmm, well if that was we in NATO's primary objective and reason for existence then I would be rather more in favour of this ridiculous, outmoded alliance.

Yeah, they aren't much good for handing out food either. I'm sure that they can't decide what food to hand out. British say fish and chips. Germans want to send sauerkraut. America wants to keep the food for themselves and just build a few fast food joints.
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:47 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Don't be hating on the Albanians and Croatians. They can hand out food as well as anyone else.

As RussianJet pointed out, it was an attempt at some light-hearted sarcasm. But despite that, at least from the Croatian perspective, there really isn't much the military can do at the moment, outside of the regular Afghanistan contingent - a force that isn't tipping any scales.

To give some indication of the problem, there was some talk of sending one CroAF An-32 along with the contingent - only one aircraft and a useful one at that. The whole thing failed miserably because the CroAF simply doesn't have the infrastructure and equipment for that. And if we can't send a single aircraft - which the Afghan airforce operates/ed as well and which was designed for backwater flying and hammer-and-screwdriver maintenance - you can imagine what impact the Cro armed forces may have. I think an Mi-8 was also on the cards, but that failed as well.

The same is with the navy. A typical sailing club has more ships than the Cro Navy has combat-capable vessels and the majority of ground troops aren't all that well equipped either. The APC deal going around will help matters, but there's still the question of numbers.

EDIT: and there's the question of money. Though the current crisis will blow over in time and the armed forces will finally get their hands on some new equipment, maintaining a large force for work in distant theaters is somewhat out of the country's budget - especially when there are far more pressing matters which need investing. Croatia in NATO is a "paper force".

[Edited 2009-04-01 12:51:24]
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:57 pm



Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
Maybe we can form a joint MiG-19/21 fighting force to show the West how it's done!

lol....

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact. Seriously, it is outmoded, unnecessary and pointless.

Hmm the jurys out on that one , im 50/50
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:15 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact.

NATO was conceived as an alliance of defence for all members, while the Warsaw Pact was conceived as a military alliance that serves the purpose of the Soviet Union, mainly to keep communism consolidated in the satellite states, along with being a counterweight to NATO. Sure, you may accuse the United States of the same thing in NATO, but let's face it, NATO has never infringed on the rights of its member nations and its citizens, the Warsaw Pact did (see the Brezhnev doctrine and the bloody crushing of protestors by Warsaw Pact troops during the Hungarian Revolution 1956 and during the Prague Spring 1968).

The Warsaw Pact was more directed at being ready to enter war and securing the hegemony of the Soviet Union, while NATO is more focussed on defence (e.g. through Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, which was invoked only once, after 9/11) and allowing its member nations to keep their own foreign policy. Members of the WP basically renounced their own foreign policy to adopt the one imposed by Moscow.

NATO does need to re-invent itself, because for me it's a valuable alliance. Hans-Dietrich Genscher is right though when he says that NATO can't become a world police. NATO has to stay true to its principle of being a defence alliance and an important partner in military and world affairs (such as e.g. being involved in peace keeping missions, like in Afghanistan).
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:18 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
while NATO is more focussed on defence

In theory yes, though in practice no, as with the Bombing of Belgrade.
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:30 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
In theory yes, though in practice no, as with the Bombing of Belgrade.

You seem to be using the bombing of Belgrade as an excuse to denounce NATO. Sure, we can debate as to whether the bombing was justified as a deterrent, to get Milosevic to stop the atrocities in Kosovo, or if it was just a random act of war, but that's for a different thread.

In any case, why don't you think about what the Warsaw Pact did to secure peace. Did the WP secure peace? No, because it was more focussed on being the extended arm of the Soviet Union and the Red Army.

Maybe if Russia would stop insisting on being as isolated as it is today, maybe Putin and his henchmen would see things more objectively, but no, the vast majority of things that come from the west, are still seen as evil by Russia. It's as if Soviet mentality never left the Kreml, even after 1991.  Yeah sure
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:32 pm

When one expands a military alliance, even one of purely defense purposes, to the point of nearly encircling another nation, that nation is naturally going to feel threatened. The defense purposes policy, after all, can be changed at a matter of whim. And the "world police" thing is already going on anyways.

Now luckily, the nation in question is a tiny, not very powerful nation, usually neutral in conflicts and with a long and friendly past called Switzerland. And thank God for that, imagine if we were doing this to Russia or something?

  

[Edited 2009-04-01 13:50:27]
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fatmirjusufi
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:36 pm

Welcome Albania and Croatia to NATO alliance.  Wink

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
In theory yes, though in practice no, as with the Bombing of Belgrade.

Do you know the reason why did they do that?
If not, I'll tell you. They stopped holocaust against Albanians in Kosovo. Stopped killings, massacres, rapes, robs, burnings... they saved us. That's important.

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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:36 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Now luckily, the nation in question is a tiny, not very powerful nation, usually neutral in conflicts and with a long and friendly past called Switzerland. And thank God for that, imagine if we were doing this to Russia or something?

The countries that are joining NATO are doing this voluntarily. They're not being forced by the United States, Germany, France or somebody else to join and yet, all of NATO gets heat by Russia. The same thing goes for the EU expansion to the East, which Russia was, and still is, categorically against because it has now encircled their little enclave of Kaliningrad, the old Ostpreußen.

It's as if Russia was also still looking at those countries, as if they were still Soviet satellite states.

And also, to Shqipëria (Albania) and Hrvatska (Croatia) joining NATO: Welcome, Willkommen, bienvenue!

[Edited 2009-04-01 13:39:10]
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:06 pm

They will get to use and staff the NATO E-3s at Geilenkirchen which will be a benefit with very little outlay of funds, plus they will get better and sync'd comm gear plus data link to the E-3s. The will get more access to professional military schools and joint training as well.

It is a huge benefit for them. Just because Joe Public is not aware of something doesn't mean it is not beneficial to them.
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RussianJet
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:16 pm



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 12):
They stopped holocaust against Albanians in Kosovo. Stopped killings, massacres, rapes, robs, burnings... they saved us. That's important.

The claimed reasons are well known to me and totally irrelevant to the point I made.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
You seem to be using the bombing of Belgrade as an excuse to denounce NATO

Nope, just as an example.
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:00 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
Please let's get a sense of proportion. Hand out food? Hmm, well if that was we in NATO's primary objective and reason for existence then I would be rather more in favour of this ridiculous, outmoded alliance.

Ridiculous and outmoded?

Perhaps Medvedev's latest, khm, "decision", to start an upgrade program for the Russian armed forces should be reviewed as well?

After all, if the largest country in the world by territory has about 120 active fighter jets, which is about twice as much as Finland does... what are we really talking about? Low morale, the dedovschina, regular suicides in service, a service period twice as long as any normal Western country, uneducated military staffing from the bottom to the highest levels, the outdated technology (from the ancient T-72 tank, the Ural 375 truck that dates back to the 1960s, to the Tu-95 bombers). In fact, the only thing that could save (and at the same time, destroy) Russia in case of a major attack from any country larger than, say Poland, is its hefty nuclear arsenal.

So, a ridiculous and outmoded army as it is... why keep it and spend money on trying to revive a skeleton?

The fact that Putin and his lap dog still do think about boosting the deteriorating army is in itself a clear sign that NATO is needed.

That being said, I do myself often wonder, why has NATO accepted the burden when they opened the door to small, (relatively) powerless countries that can well turn into a hotspot within the next 20 years due to the proximity of a large, aggressive and unpredictable neighbor. A good example are the Baltic states, for example. Surely, it's boosted the morale, confidence and development of the local populations, but in case things get hot, are they really worth the trouble?

[Edited 2009-04-01 16:06:23]
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:24 pm

I think Albania will sen some troops to Kosova as full NATO member now, and if this happens i hope that they decide to send them in the northern Mitrovica.

These to new countries will not contribute a lot but at last the Mediterranean coast now is fully controlled by the Western forces.
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:30 pm



Quoting Kiqaboy (Reply 17):
and if this happens i hope that they decide to send them in the northern Mitrovica.

What for ? To raise tensions and start another war?? They will not be allowed anywhere near these areas by the EU or NATO. They would not be welcome there anyway.
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:48 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
They would not be welcome there anyway.

Just because they're Albanian?




And yeah, congrats to both Croatia and Albania, this is great news for both countries.  Smile
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:16 am



Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 14):
They will get to use and staff the NATO E-3s at Geilenkirchen which will be a benefit with very little outlay of funds, plus they will get better and sync'd comm gear plus data link to the E-3s.

How is that a benefit to us?
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RussianJet
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:51 am



Quoting OV735 (Reply 16):
Perhaps Medvedev's latest, khm, "decision", to start an upgrade program for the Russian armed forces should be reviewed as well?

In which case may I suggest starting a thread on that topic? This one is about NATO (and I come from and live in a NATO country).
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:07 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous

If it is so ridiculous, then why does it causes so much stir in Kremlin?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 10):
When one expands a military alliance, even one of purely defense purposes, to the point of nearly encircling another nation, that nation is naturally going to feel threatened. The defense purposes policy, after all, can be changed at a matter of whim.

The nation in question feels threatened by everything they do not directly control, it's part of their collective national psyché.
Ask the Baltic countries about the consequences of being left out in the cold.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
the Warsaw Pact did (see the Brezhnev doctrine and the bloody crushing of protestors by Warsaw Pact troops during the Hungarian Revolution 1956 and during the Prague Spring 1968

... and almost "liberated" Poland in winter 1981/82. As weird as it may sound martial law declared by Jaruzelski most likely saved the country from the invasion.
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:11 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 19):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
They would not be welcome there anyway.

Just because they're Albanian?

They're already part of NATO alliance.  Wink

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RussianJet
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:34 am



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 22):
If it is so ridiculous, then why does it causes so much stir in Kremlin?

Sorry, what's the logic here? The expansion of the long defunct yet highly suspicious NATO worries Russia, therefore it is a good thing? A pretty strange argument.
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:31 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 19):
Just because they're Albanian?



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 23):
They're already part of NATO alliance

Its called ''conflict of interests'' and NATO would not allow it as they know the tension it would cause. Just like other instances where NATO has placed other neutral troops in conflict zones around the world. Notibly Africa.
 
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:35 pm



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 20):
How is that a benefit to us?

It gives Hrvatska the ability to use the best AEW&C system in the world for nearly nothing for both beyond the horizon and sea lane surveilance-again at basically no cost since the US and Germany are the biggest funders of the NATO E-3 program.

It gives Hrvatska the ability to upgrade their communications (both military and civil-via ATC and police) to secure, jam resistance, and Have Quick modes-again at little cost, which allows Crotia to communicate with all of its NATO military neighbours allowing for better coordiation, not only military wise but via border protection and sealane protection.

It gives Croatian military officers and senior NCOs the chance to attend some of the best joint PME (professional military education) on the planet-again at little cost to them.

And it gives them a seat, and vote at the NATO commande table. I could go on but have to run.

I will add, having worked for NATO and dealt with several Croatian leaders during this process they are beyond pleased with integration phase so far and the upgrades coming to the Croatian forces.
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Kiqaboy
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:30 pm

I have heard that Croatia will upgrade some of its fixed wing and some new helicopters, but what about Albania are they going to have any combat aircraft's or they will have NATO air protection in they disposal.

I wonder if FRYOM will be part of NATO any soon, or maybe not until the name problem is solved?

I wanted also to know what about of money does every NATO member have to pay to be part of it, or they only contribute with troops and equipments?
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:41 pm



Quoting Kiqaboy (Reply 27):
Albania are they going to have any combat aircraft's or they will have NATO air protection in they disposal.

Kushtrim I found something. It's only in Albanian!

Quote:
Kështu, Regjimenti i Helikopterëve i dislokuar në Farkë do të zgjerohet dhe do të pajiset me helikopterë të mesëm me aftesi të transportit të rëndë dhe aftësi për kryerjen e operacioneve "Kërkim-dhe-Shpëtim" (SAR).Regjimenti i Helikopterëve do të ketë tre skuadrilje helikopterësh, dy transporti dhe nje sulmuese. Në shumë artikuj flitet se FASH'ja do të formojë një skuadrilje helikopterësh sulmues me helikopterë të prodhimit italian ose amerikan. Kjo gjë është e konfirmuar edhe nga Ministria e Mbrojtjes së Shqipërisë. Avionët reaktive luftarakë që ishin krenaria e FASH për dekada, tashmë janë tërhequr nga shërbimi. Këto avionë janë avionë MiG-15 bis, MiG-17PF (tip kinez), MiG-19S (tip kinez) dhe MiG-21F-13 (tip kinez). Sic u përmend me parë, plane të tanishme për blerjen e avionëve të rinj nuk ka dhe dicka e tillë nuk përmendet në planin 10-vjeçar.
Po ashtu, sistemi kundërajror do të modernizohet. Raketat me rreze të gjatë veprimi HQ-1 do të zëvendesohen me sistemin 'Hawk MIM-23B'. Gjithashtu, raketat portative HN-5A do të zëvendësohen me raketat te tipit 'Stinger'.

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TripleDelta
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:55 pm



Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 26):
It gives Hrvatska the ability to use the best AEW&C system in the world for nearly nothing for both beyond the horizon and sea lane surveilance-again at basically no cost since the US and Germany are the biggest funders of the NATO E-3 program.

Again, what use is that to us? Who are we going to look at over the horizon? And if something interesting shows up, what would/could we do about it?

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 26):
It gives Hrvatska the ability to upgrade their communications (both military and civil-via ATC and police) to secure, jam resistance, and Have Quick modes-again at little cost, which allows Crotia to communicate with all of its NATO military neighbours allowing for better coordiation, not only military wise but via border protection and sealane protection.

Apart from the main surveillance radar, Cro ATC is already up to scratch in most areas - including the most important one, area control. Only a few bugs need to be ironed out...

Regarding border and sealane protection, how can NATO help? Call in an airstrike on cigarette smugglers? Send a carrier into Piran bay to deal with Slovenian fishermen?

The training, granted that's a useful one. But it could have been accomplished differently as well...

NATO is all fine and well and personally I'm not against it - but Croatia-wise the whole deal is unnecessary and premature. Especially given the funds that have to be flushed into this deal that could have been far better used...
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RE: Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...

Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting Kiqaboy (Reply 27):
I have heard that Croatia will upgrade some of its fixed wing and some new helicopters, but what about Albania are they going to have any combat aircraft's or they will have NATO air protection in they disposal.

The fixed wing upgrade has been put on ice due to the current economic situation. The rotary fleet has been renewed with Mi-171s acquired as part of the Russian debt to countries of former Yugoslavia.
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