Alessandro
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F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:51 pm

I personally think the KERS team will do better, not because of the track but more experience.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:34 am

I think the that the KERS teams will do better because China is a good track to use it on. Monaco and Hungary are probably the tracks KERS will be most ineffective on.
Having said that, I expect a strong showing from Brawn, Toyota and BMW Sauber again. Assuming weather doesn't come into play Brawn look pretty hard to beat.
 
Alessandro
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:34 pm

Monaco is so hard to overtake, so I reckon KERS can be vital in the tunnel?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:11 pm

Monaco is still a while away. They have not yet started setting up the track or the stands or anything. It will come in due time and once they get started they do work hard at it 24/24.

Chinese GP: what time will it start on UK time? I will be at LHR for the A.net meet with a nice hotel room and I don't want to miss out on the race.

I can do my in-room plane spotting while I keep an eye on the race track at the same time.  airplane   veryhappy 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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LTU932
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:17 pm

It's the China GP already? Shouldn't now come Manama, Bahrain or why the hell did they change schedules?
 
legoguy
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:49 pm

Sorry to bring this up;

FIA finally calls McLaren infront of a hearing on 29th April,

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090407182222.shtml

and McLaren accepts,

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090407184349.shtml

Interesting to note that McLaren continued to mislead the FIA during the second meeting in Singapore. One thing I simply don't understand, how were McLaren ever allowed to lie in the first place? Is it not mandatory that the team radio transcripts are heard during the initial investigation after the Australian GP?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
Alessandro
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:32 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
It's the China GP already? Shouldn't now come Manama, Bahrain or why the hell did they change schedules?

They´ve change most things to this year, so China GP is before Bahrain.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:14 pm

Luca di Montezemolo is confident that Ferrai can overcome the difficulties faced in the early season.
If/when* the FIA (pick whatever you like for those initials) help out by eliminating McLaren then the Scuderia will have only seven teams to catch up with not eight, should be a walk in the park!

Better not take too many more races to improve though or the task may just prove too daunting.

Cheers

* I fear it is when rather than if, I would think Fascist Max has made up his mind and determined that McLaren will be out of F1 before he relinquishes his dictatorship... er presidency
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:29 pm

Max needs to stop listening to the voices inside his head and stand down.
 
CXB77L
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:09 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
I expect a strong showing from Brawn, Toyota and BMW Sauber again

I think Red Bull and Williams will be up there too. Red Bull have shown that they have the pace to be a consistant points finisher, and I dare say perhaps currently the second best team behind Brawn. I also have no doubt that Williams will be in the points, though a podium might be stretching it.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
waterpolodan
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:45 pm

The red bull has the qualifying pace, but so far they just haven't had the strategy or consistent race pace of the brawn. I hope they can turn the corner and start competing for wins, though, as I think the car looks really cool, especially from head on, and I like both Webber and Vettel a lot. I think BGP will still be the team to beat this weekend, with another strong showing from Toyota. If Ferrari don't score points in this race, they're in real trouble. Same for Mclaren, though sadly their season will be determined in the FIA's hearings rather than on the track.
 
Boeing74741R
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:56 pm



Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 10):
Same for Mclaren, though sadly their season will be determined in the FIA's hearings rather than on the track.

Except that it would appear to have been brought on by McLaren themselves.
 
waterpolodan
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:16 am

True, I don't blame anyone but them, but my statement still stands, it is sad that such a great team keeps shooting itself in the foot and that the FIA takes such exception to their actions.
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:03 am



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 11):
Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 10):
Same for Mclaren, though sadly their season will be determined in the FIA's hearings rather than on the track.

Except that it would appear to have been brought on by McLaren themselves.

Can I suggest that this discussion is better held at

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2065540/

Meanwhile since it IS here, I have yet to learn what it was that McL did wrong on the track in this case. Why should a driver be penalized for what the pit does or does not do? Nobody has answered that - yet! Do we have a complete trace on what other pits were telling their drivers? It probably exists but for some odd reason we don't seem to see it. It would be truly (Trulli) astonishing if something like 36 hours of taped transcripts did not contain something illegal. Let us go completely mad and parse the statements word by word. Cos unless you do, seems like special treatment.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:54 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 13):
Meanwhile since it IS here, I have yet to learn what it was that McL did wrong on the track in this case. Why should a driver be penalized for what the pit does or does not do? Nobody has answered that - yet! Do we have a complete trace on what other pits were telling their drivers? It probably exists but for some odd reason we don't seem to see it. It would be truly (Trulli) astonishing if something like 36 hours of taped transcripts did not contain something illegal. Let us go completely mad and parse the statements word by word. Cos unless you do, seems like special treatment.

I dont think mclaren did anything wrong on the track. certainly nothing that would warrant what they are going through right now. Since the second meeting at Malaysia, it has always been what happened in the hours after the race in australia. Mclaren shot themselves in the foot by lying to the stewards.

As for their punishment...i dunno what they will get. They escaped any race bans for the spy scandal which was fairly serious, but in this case they were prepared to throw another competitor under the bus which i think is pretty bad...so who knows.
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:58 pm

Anyone know what's going on with the Diffuser Appeal?

I thought we were to hear of an announcement of that today.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:03 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 15):
I thought we were to hear of an announcement of that today.

The hearing was today, the judgement was always scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:04 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 15):
Anyone know what's going on with the Diffuser Appeal?

From Autosport.... "With the teams now having left for China, a final decision on the case will be announced on Wednesday afternoon. The full findings however, are not expected to be released until later in the week at the earliest."

Cheers
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B747forever
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:31 am

Work Hard, Fly Right
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:29 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 17):
a final decision on the case will be announced on Wednesday afternoon

I think both Renault and Ferrari have the new diffuser with them in case the outcome would be that FIA making it legal to use.

It has a substantial influence on the downforce, which saw the teams not running it falling behind in the middle sector of the last GP.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:29 am

"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:36 am



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 20):
Diffusers are in agreement with the rules!

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...shtml

Phew. Means I do not have to try to understand the physics behind the things!!  angel 
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:53 am

I don't think you need to understand physics so much as interpreting technical wording.
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:04 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 22):
I don't think you need to understand physics so much as interpreting technical wording.

C'mon Bill, you know my facilities about technical wording are completely taken up in a different thread. But I have this lobe that does physics that is a bit at a loose end this week!  angel 

I understand down-force though. It is what is applied to teams that MM does not like.  angel   angel 
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:51 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 20):
Diffusers are in agreement with the rules!

So with this in mind I think we will see a different line up this weekend if indeed the other teams brought it.

Just imagine if this would have gone the other way.
Then FIA would have told Brawn GP, Toyota and the rest how bad that was by them to run that diffuser but would have let them keep their points, and then they would kick Mclaren out of F1, even though they have nothing to do with it.  

Anyone else took note of that Alessandro's user name is gone?

Aim for the sky!
Sudden

[Edited 2009-04-15 04:53:43]
When in doubt, flat out!
 
EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:07 pm

Quoting Sudden (Reply 24):
Then FIA would have told Brawn GP, Toyota and the rest how bad that was by them to run that diffuser but would have let them keep their points,

And everyone would be saying that the reason they say its illegal is to help Ferrari  

Even if they did bring ot to themselves or not, now let's just hope FIA doesn't kick out Mclaren ... it would be a great loss for F1, becuase Ferrari and Mclaren are the two biggest teams, from all points of view, and having 50% of that removed .. it's like a FIFA world cup without Brazil, Italy or Germany. It'll be fun, but not the same.

[Edited 2009-04-15 05:09:42]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:20 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 24):
So with this in mind I think we will see a different line up this weekend if indeed the other teams brought it.

Personally, I don't think so.

Some seem to think the diffuser is the only reason Brawn are at the front of the grid and, now that the situation has been clarified, the "normal" teams will quickly regain their "rightful" places. However, I think Brawn has produced an excellent car, has a good engine and two strong drivers (one of whom has not looked as though he's driving anywhere near his, or the car's, limits). Yes, other teams will get closer (possibly a lot closer), and there will be tracks where the car doesn't work so well, but I have a suspicion they may already be too far ahead.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:01 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 26):
Some seem to think the diffuser is the only reason Brawn are at the front of the grid and, now that the situation has been clarified, the "normal" teams will quickly regain their "rightful" places

Nah, for the others to catch up with Brawn will take time, so I sure don't think they will be delegated further back the grid over night.
That said, they will be facing stronger challenges, as the diffuser is indeed one very vital part to keep the cars on the track, so yes, it does make a big difference.

Brawn has a solid package with a 100% reliability so far.
But you know as well that things change as the season progress and the teams add updates to their cars. Brawn is not that far ahead of the rest if you look at the lap times. And Mclaren, Renault, Ferrari etc. are working overtime to close the gap.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:20 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 27):
And Mclaren, Renault, Ferrari etc. are working overtime to close the gap.

I read in F1-Live that Renault might actually already have a Diffuser ready and may race it this weekend in China.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 25):
And everyone would be saying that the reason they say its illegal is to help Ferrari

I think that if they did deem it Illegal...it would be to help Ferrari...But I think in this case...the FIA acted only to make sure they didn't Lose a lot of Money.

Williams, Toyota and Brawn are all short strapped on cash flow...Ferrari, Renault, BMW, McLaren etc...not really...

If the FIA sided with all the other teams that could afford to modify their cars...then there is a possibility of losing one or more of the Diffuser three....as they possible wouldn't have had the funds to re-engineer their cars to be legal.

At this point, I almot don't even care about the season...there's just this dark cloud of idiocy looming over head...I'm talking about the McLaren hearing in a few weeks. I wish they'd just DQ'd the team from Australia (as they rightly did)...and moved on...a Fine...ok..but there's no reason for them to draw this out.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:33 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 20):
Diffusers are in agreement with the rules!

Not according to my (admittedly limited) understanding of the rules and the description of the "diffuser gang" interpretations!

Having said that I am happy that the FIA having had several opportunities to give their opinion then at the AGP declaring them legal have shown some level of consistency and not changed their minds.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:36 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 28):
.there's just this dark cloud of idiocy looming over head...I'm talking about the McLaren hearing in a few weeks. I wish they'd just DQ'd the team from Australia (as they rightly did)...and moved on...a Fine...ok..but there's no reason for them to draw this out.

agree 100%

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 28):
I think that if they did deem it Illegal...it would be to help Ferrari...But I think in this case...the FIA acted only to make sure they didn't Lose a lot of Money.

proving that it's not the international assistance claimed over and over again. If they really did want to help Ferrari, they would have done it, considering Ferrari (and mclaren) are the biggest money makers for the circus.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:48 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 28):
I read in F1-Live that Renault might actually already have a Diffuser ready and may race it this weekend in China.

Renault had theirs ready for Malaysia, but never used it as they were waiting the outcome from FIA.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:03 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 30):
considering Ferrari (and mclaren) are the biggest money makers for the circus.

That's exactly my point. If the FIA sided with Ferrari, then there wouldn't be a circus to make money from, because there would be no performers (the grid would be down to 14 cars..maybe even less).
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:11 pm

Quoting Sudden (Reply 24):
Anyone else took note of that Alessandro's user name is gone?

I was asking myself the same question.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 26):
However, I think Brawn has produced an excellent car, has a good engine and two strong drivers (one of whom has not looked as though he's driving anywhere near his, or the car's, limits). Yes, other teams will get closer (possibly a lot closer), and there will be tracks where the car doesn't work so well, but I have a suspicion they may already be too far ahead.

I totally agree. I read an interview of Rory Byrne in a French newspaper and he said that Brawn's diffuser allowed a gain of ± 0.3 second per lap. Considering that the gap between the "top teams" and the Brawns could sometimes exceed 1 second, I would tend to think that the performance of the Brawns are not entirely due to this diffuser.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 29):
Not according to my (admittedly limited) understanding of the rules and the description of the "diffuser gang" interpretations!

Ah well... maybe you could send a letter to the FIA explaining why they are wrong   

[Edited 2009-04-15 09:14:50]
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 33):
Considering that the gap between the "top teams" and the Brawns could sometimes exceed 1 second,

Anyone else have trouble with the name of the Brawn team?

http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/souse

Reminds me of WWII, hours of making things including brawn after the demise of one of the denizens of the *** club.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:03 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
Anyone else have trouble with the name of the Brawn team?

It does not mean anything in French  Smile
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:49 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 35):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
Anyone else have trouble with the name of the Brawn team?

It does not mean anything in French

Wiki
France
Referred to as fromage de tête, tête pressée, tête fromagée (which translates as "cheesed head") or pâté de tête.


So just imagine Martin Brundle saying that the "Fromage de tête car is particularly fast this afternoon ....." Probably worse than in English, so I have probably ruined your weekend.  Wow!
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:25 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 36):
Wiki
France
Referred to as fromage de tête, tête pressée, tête fromagée (which translates as "cheesed head") or pâté de tête.

I know the French naming, but never heard the English word to refer to this type of food.

I learnt something!  Wink
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:56 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 33):
I read an interview of Rory Byrne in a French newspaper and he said that Brawn's diffuser allowed a gain of ± 0.3 second per lap. Considering that the gap between the "top teams" and the Brawns could sometimes exceed 1 second, I would tend to think that the performance of the Brawns are not entirely due to this diffuser.

Exactly.

I have read claims that the diffuser is worth between 02. and 0.5s per lap. So plumping for somewhere in the middle of that range still gives the Brawn a considerable advantage. It's also worth pointing out that for both pole positions, IIRC, Button was heavier than most, if not all the other top-10 cars.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:18 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 33):
Ah well... maybe you could send a letter to the FIA explaining why they are wrong

I could but, I am prepared to admit my access to the detail of the situation is not as great as theirs(I hope) so will defer to conclusions.  Wink

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:47 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 38):
I have read claims that the diffuser is worth between 02. and 0.5s per lap. So plumping for somewhere in the middle of that range still gives the Brawn a considerable advantage. It's also worth pointing out that for both pole positions, IIRC, Button was heavier than most, if not all the other top-10 cars.

The diffuser alone is most likely not the only reason why Brawn GP is fast, but don't forget that Mclaren as well as Ferrari are the teams with the big bucks, and they will come with updates through the whole season, which includes the diffuser and other parts for this coming race.

The other teams know that Brawn is to be taken serious, but when it comes to Button I am not so sure.
But I would want to see if he is able to compete against Massa, Hamilton, Raikönnen, and Alonso when they will close the gap. And yes, they will close the gap.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:01 am

Have they started testing in Shanghai yet?
Any idea who's doing what?  Confused
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:07 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 41):
Have they started testing in Shanghai yet?

Patience Madame, as I write this just under 17 hrs to P1

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:43 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 41):

A grand prix weekend always starts on Friday, with Monaco being the only exception.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:16 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 40):
e other teams know that Brawn is to be taken serious, but when it comes to Button I am not so sure.

Button has far more than his fair share of detractors. I have a sneaky suspicion he may just have the last laugh.  crossfingers 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:18 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 40):
The diffuser alone is most likely not the only reason why Brawn GP is fast, but don't forget that Mclaren as well as Ferrari are the teams with the big bucks, and they will come with updates through the whole season, which includes the diffuser and other parts for this coming race.

Renault will install this diffuser on their cars as soon as tomorrow (obviously, they have anticipated the FIA's decision a long time ago).

We'll see what will be the gain of performance.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:28 am

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet.

Ron Dennis has decided to quit from the F1 side of McLaren. He's given F1 a lot over a long time and deserved more than got in return over the last couple of years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8001425.stm

I'm sure some in the FIA will be delighted.  sarcastic 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:18 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 44):



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 46):
Ron Dennis has decided to quit from the F1 side of McLaren. He's given F1 a lot over a long time and deserved more than got in return over the last couple of years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...5.stm

I saw this on the F1 news sites
Ron Dennis is a fantastic human being. He certainly deserves more appreciation than what he has got. I hope he will be at the Monaco GP as a visitor/guest if not officially.
I will certainly miss him.  Sad
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:27 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 45):
(obviously, they have anticipated the FIA's decision a long time ago).

I would think most teams would have been working on an alternate solution at least since the first questions were raised over the Toyota/Williams diffusers at pre season testing.
If I was paying these people to produce a competitve car they had better be in any case!

That work would have escalated considerably after Friday at the AGP

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009:Chinese Grand Prix

Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:17 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 45):
Renault will install this diffuser on their cars as soon as tomorrow (obviously, they have anticipated the FIA's decision a long time ago).



Quoting Sudden (Reply 31):
Renault had theirs ready for Malaysia, but never used it as they were waiting the outcome from FIA.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 48):
I would think most teams would have been working on an alternate solution at least since the first questions were raised over the Toyota/Williams diffusers at pre season testing.

Not necessarily as during winter testing you can bolt on more or less what you want on the car, but when it's lined up on the grid for the Oz race it needs to be compliant with the rules.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!

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