ozglobal
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Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:56 pm

BBC reporting Obama's speech in Europe:

"In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America's showed arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

"But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual but can also be insidious. Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what's bad.

Well said, but:

The president also reiterated that the US government strongly supported Turkey's bid to become a member of the European Union.
"Europe gains by diversity of ethnicity, tradition and faith - it is not diminished by it," he said to a round of applause from the audience. "And Turkish membership would broaden and strengthen Europe's foundation once more."

-----------------

Uhmm, Mr Obama needs to join the EU before he gets to invite others to become members.
Turkey and the EU citizens have very different cultures, values and agendas. Outside of the academics and businessmen of Istambul, most of the 70 million muslim population live much as they have for centuries and are not at all enamored of western liberal democratic values. This same population is doubling every 20 years. Over the next two decades, 140 million Turkish muslims, primarily from a traditional rural setting are not likely to want to 'integrate' with the main stream cultures of Europe. A strong strategic partnership is, I think the best mutual way forward. We don't have to 'marry' every country we want as a partner. Sarkozy might well "strongly support" Turkey's becoming the 51st state of the USA and push for this. How would Americans appreciate the diplomacy of this attitude.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:05 pm



Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
Sarkozy might well "strongly support" Turkey's becoming the 51st state of the USA and push for this. How would Americans appreciate the diplomacy of this attitude.

52nd. Im sure he will be pushing Britian first  Silly
 
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OA260
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:11 pm

Well I do support Turkeys eventual entry to the EU but I think its 20 years down the road. There are many many issues to sort out from human rights to freedom of the press. In the current economic situation I think any new EU entry will be delayed.

On another note whilst I really like Obama he should not try to make the same mistake as his predecessor . The USA should not involve itself in internal EU decisons and policy.
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitatio

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:21 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
In the current economic situation I think any new EU entry will be delayed.

Not just because of that — as long as the Lisbon treaty is held up, any further enlargement is simply impossible. Even the previous round had been too much without the necessary structural reforms accompanying it.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
On another note whilst I really like Obama he should not try to make the same mistake as his predecessor . The USA should not involve itself in internal EU decisons and policy.

The USA can express an appreciation of such an accession, but it does indeed come dangerously close to meddling in internal EU affairs. He should not press the point any further — it's quite enough.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:34 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
On another note whilst I really like Obama he should not try to make the same mistake as his predecessor . The USA should not involve itself in internal EU decisons and policy.

Amen to that. I am very disappointed with Today's comments from Mr Obama, as so far he has made a very good impression on me. There is no way Turkey should join the EU, but even if they were eventually allowed to, that should only ever be the decision of the EU and be taken free of any extrenal influence.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:49 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
should only ever be the decision of the EU and be taken free of any extrenal influence.

Considering that the entire globe has felt free for decades to comment on America, it's politics, policies, celebrities and whatever else comes down the pike, I find it ironic that the EU doesn't wish to allow the president of the USA to have an opinion on their affairs.
What the...?
 
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par13del
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:56 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Considering that the entire globe has felt free for decades to comment on America, it's politics, policies, celebrities and whatever else comes down the pike, I find it ironic that the EU doesn't wish to allow the president of the USA to have an opinion on their affairs.

Question is, who in the EU political hierachy are pushing for Turkey to be excluded? Unless I'm mistaken, their is a vocal minority against Turkey's entry, not a majority, so did he actually say something which the majority are against?
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:00 pm

My point is, he is entitled to his opinion just as the EU is entitled to ignore it. Getting upset because he vocalizes his opinion seems like over reacting to me.
What the...?
 
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OA260
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:01 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
globe has felt free for decades to comment on America, it's politics, policies, celebrities and whatever else comes down the pike, I find it ironic that the EU doesn't wish to allow the president of the USA to have an opinion on their affairs.

People can make comments but there is a line when addressing international meetings and summits.

You didnt hear Gordon Brown or Sarkozy say that America should get rid of Mr Bush at the US elections.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:24 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
You didnt hear Gordon Brown or Sarkozy say that America should get rid of Mr Bush at the US elections.

You didn't hear Bush say get rid of Brown or Sarkozy either...which wouldn't have anything to do with what Obama said anyway.

It wouldn't take much googling to dig up some quotes from EU leaders criticizing US policy.

The EU is under no obligation to take Obamas' wishes into consideration.

Picking and choosing when free speech is allowed doesn't make it very free.
What the...?
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:31 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Considering that the entire globe has felt free for decades to comment on America, it's politics, policies, celebrities and whatever else comes down the pike, I find it ironic that the EU doesn't wish to allow the president of the USA to have an opinion on their affairs.

The way he worded it, it was more than an expression of an opinion (which would not be a problem) — it came close to being a demand. And that crosses the line, especially when strategic desires for NATO are pushed on the EU which is a completely separate entity.
 
radiopolitic
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:42 pm



Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):

While even as a citizen of Turkey I do not wish for it to join the EU, your paragraph of reasons clearly demonstrates to me that you have very little understanding of Turkey.

Show me one source that says by 2029 Turkey's population will be 140 million.

It's Istanbul not Istambul. Only academics and businessmen, eh? What an obtuse and erroneous opinion.

We've lived the same way for centuries? Have you ever visited Turkey? If we've lived that way then, just as one example, why do almost all farmers use modern mechanized equipment when my father didn't even 60 years ago?

Not enamored with western liberal democratic values? That's why we have a democratic process and elections that just occurred recently with 85% voter turnout right?

Don't get me wrong I'm a severe critic of many things that occur within Turkey from human rights violations to historical manipulation but I won't stand for nonsense like this.

Don't spew malarkey without knowing what you're talking about, be it fueled by propaganda or hatred.
 
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OA260
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:44 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
The EU is under no obligation to take Obamas' wishes into consideration.

And it doesnt take too much to find instances of extreme pressure to get their way either. Like I said there is expressing your views without dictating .
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:06 pm

He said, essentially, that the EU would benefit from Turkey's inclusion...that's hardly dictating. To me, it seems much more like recommending or advising.

Still, just as I feel Obama is entitled to voice his opinion, everyone else is entitled to voice theirs.
What the...?
 
ozglobal
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:20 pm



Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 12):
While even as a citizen of Turkey I do not wish for it to join the EU, your paragraph of reasons clearly demonstrates to me that you have very little understanding of Turkey.

Show me one source that says by 2029 Turkey's population will be 140 million.

An extrapolation:

"Turkey's first census of the republican era was taken in 1927 and counted a total population of about 13.6 million. Less than seventy years later, the country's population had more than quadrupled. Between 1927 and 1945, growth was slow; in certain years during the 1930s, the population actually declined. Significant growth occurred between 1945 and 1980, when the population increased almost 2.5 times. Although the rate of growth has been slowing gradually since 1980, Turkey's average annual population increase is relatively high in comparison to that of European countries. In fact, member states of the European Union (EU--see Glossary) have cited this high population growth rate as justification for delaying a decision on Turkey's long-pending application to join the EU."

http://countrystudies.us/turkey/24.htm

Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 12):
It's Istanbul not Istambul. Only academics and businessmen, eh? What an obtuse and erroneous opinion.

Didn't say that. You misread. The point was that there is a very pro-european academic and business movement amongst a minority in Istanbul, and a lot less support for liberal democracy amongst other demographics in the country.

Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 12):
We've lived the same way for centuries?

From: Women in the Rural Turkish Culture:

"You might find it hard to believe but in the 21st century there are still places where women are not treated as equal to men. Welcome to rural Turkey where for some polygamy and abuse against women is a normal part of every day life. Although women gained the right to vote in 1927 and civil rights were introduced in 1934 very little changed throughout the years. In a strictly traditional and patriarchal society it was extremely important to preserve old values and conventional ways, preventing the progress of modernization and development."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._rural_turkish_culture.html?cat=49

From NY Times, "Turkish Women Who See Death as a Way Out"

"....Nearly half the women in southeastern Turkey are illiterate, largely because their families refused to send girls to school.

[They] would have been unlikely to challenge her father because men rule with the authority of a feudal lord. The women raise the children and live in the shadows, usually behind a veil, and the female children work at home until they are married."

"...With poverty widespread, and unemployment often surpassing 50 percent, women are relegated to the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. Even the scarce resources that poor families can muster are invariably used to help the sons, leaving girls to watch brothers go off to school or jobs, while they stay home. Girls who go to school or have jobs face rigid rules and harsh punishment at home."

From: UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/cedaw/cedaw-turkey.htm

"153. The representative noted that in Turkey, contradictions of globalization, modernization and traditionalism had an impact on the status of women in society. Constraints of underdevelopment and structural adjustment and of religious fundamentalism and claims based on ethnic rivalries presented sources of conflict with long-term prospects that may be unfavourable for the status of women.
157. Among the challenges faced by Turkey in achieving women's equality, the representative identified the disparities in status and opportunities for urban middle-class and rural women; violence against women in the private domain;"

Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 12):
Not enamored with western liberal democratic values? That's why we have a democratic process and elections that just occurred recently with 85% voter turnout right?



Didn't say "process" but "liberal democratic values".

Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 12):
Don't get me wrong I'm a severe critic of many things that occur within Turkey from human rights violations to historical manipulation but I won't stand for nonsense like this.

Some facts. 'Stubborn things'.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:25 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
He said, essentially, that the EU would benefit from Turkey's inclusion...that's hardly dictating. To me, it seems much more like recommending or advising.

"Let me be clear: the United States strongly supports Turkey's bid to become a member of the European Union," Obama pledged in a speech at the Turkish parliament.

In the context and setting, it sounds more like an expectation, bordering on a diplomatic 'demand'.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
A332
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:27 pm

I believe Obama was more interested in extending an arm of cooperation to the Muslim world (or an olive branch of sorts), more so than pushing hard to have the EU accept Turkey...

That's what it was all about... peaceful & meaningful engagement of an important Muslim nation... demonstrating the Obama administration IS interested in pursuing it's goals through diplomacy and that US military motives are not directed at Islam as a whole.

It's not a bad idea... beats the whole 'you're either with us or against us' mentality of the Bush II era.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:41 pm



Quoting A332 (Reply 17):
I believe Obama was more interested in extending an arm of cooperation to the Muslim world (or an olive branch of sorts), more so than pushing hard to have the EU accept Turkey...

Obviously. There's still a point where lines will be crossed.

Still within the honeymoon period it's apparently a calculated risk which will not have any serious consequences, but he should refrain from repeating it nevertheless.
 
UAL747
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:46 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 16):
"Let me be clear: the United States strongly supports Turkey's bid to become a member of the European Union," Obama pledged in a speech at the Turkish parliament.

In the context and setting, it sounds more like an expectation, bordering on a diplomatic 'demand'.

Do you seriously think Obama is demanding here? Umm, Europe is our greatest ally. If you take this as a threat or demand, you are wrong. Maybe that's what he'd like to see, and certainly Europe has told the US what they want to see from us, oh, for the past 50 years or so, so don't go off on a tangent over something this silly. Or be offended if our president SUGGESTS something about your Union. Lord knows you guys do it to us all the time, albeit, you guys were pretty much straight on for the Iraq war, but still, you did give us your VERY strong opinion. Don't get offended when others give you theirs, and I wouldn't worry, I don't think we are going to impose sanctions or launch a military campaign against you if you do not include turkey, and I doubt we would annex Europe.....LOL.

UAL
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:48 pm

The US President, on the last leg of his first European trip since inauguration, made clear he backed Turkey as an EU member state, not least to as a positive message to the Muslim world.

That prompted Nicolas Sarkozy, the French President, to repeat his resistance to the idea, while Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, said close ties with Ankara did not necessarily mean full membership of the EU club.

Now Nigel Farage, the UK Independence Party leader, has described the notion of Turkish EU membership - first mooted 40 years ago - as a "disaster".

Mr Farage warned: "Barack Obama should remember that while he's been elected President he's been elected President of the United States only.

"This doesn't mean he has the power to decide which country enters, or does not enter, the EU. So his remarks yesterday that Turkey should be allowed in were the grossest cheek."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk

It seems that Obama certainly managed to achieve one thing: Sarkozy, Ms. Merkel and Nigel Farage actually agree on something. That does not happen very often.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:02 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Considering that the entire globe has felt free for decades to comment on America, it's politics, policies, celebrities and whatever else comes down the pike, I find it ironic that the EU doesn't wish to allow the president of the USA to have an opinion on their affairs.

Commen, yes. Try and influence internal affairs, no.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
radiopolitic
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:09 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 15):
An extrapolation:

While your cited paragraph is old news to me you clearly wrote:

Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
This same population is doubling every 20 years. Over the next two decades, 140 million Turkish muslims

Give me one source that states the population of Turkey will be 140 million in 2029. There is no mention of that in what you've quoted or in your link.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 15):
Didn't say that. You misread.

Then what is this:

Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
Istambul



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 15):
The point was that there is a very pro-european academic and business movement amongst a minority in Istanbul,

Pro-European sentiments come from all strata in Turkey. Not just academics and businessmen and not only in Istanbul. If you think it is only limited to Istanbul and to academics and businesses you are grossly mistaken. Now I'm not saying that the entire country is gung-ho about it either but it most definitely permeates beyond such finitely defined circles.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 15):
From: Women in the Rural Turkish Culture:

I'm not sure if I should laugh at you for posting those things or not. Your initial post was a giant paintbrush sweep of a statement. If you have particular issues then you should have stated them. I'm the first to realize problems within my country and you raise a very legitimate one, however, don't make some ridiculous generalized statement that we "live much as they have for centuries," which holds zero merit or understanding of Turkey.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 15):
Didn't say "process" but "liberal democratic values".

The process is within itself a part of those values. There are a lot of issues in Turkey and if you have specific concerns, make them specific - such as the oppression of science but don't make generalized sweeping statements based on severely limited understanding of what you're talking about. Many people outside of academia and the business circle share those values and cherish them dear to their hearts. There is a reason that Ataturk is venerated as much as he is and it isn't just academic and business circles that are fond of him, and it most definitely isn't limited to Istanbul and Istanbul alone. You are most incorrect if you have such a narrow perception of how far down these ideals have percolated into the Turkish populace.

I'll reiterate just to make sure the point comes across. Make specific criticisms, not generalized statements.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:23 pm



Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 22):

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 15):
Didn't say that. You misread.

Then what is this:

Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
Istambul

Are you seriously arguing about my typo? I am explaining the demographic issue I was trying to make. I have business colleagues in Istanbul and have spoken to them enough to form some views on the situation. Enough to make me uncomfortable with the idea of Turkey joining the EU in the near future.

Population: It has double several times in the 20th century and is growing much faster than European countries. A crude extrapolation is to double it again in 20 years. Maybe it's not 2x but 1.5 times. In any case, my point and the documented concerns of the EU members as I cited, are clear.

Traditional patriarchal structures reinforced by religion in rural areas are not today allowing social values compatible with mainstream European values and practices. With open boarders in the EU this is very likely to lead to tensions.

Hence, my recommendation is to have a strong strategic partnership with Turkey and EU membership is not the only or the best way to have this.

Take it or leave it. That's my view.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:31 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
Commen, yes. Try and influence internal affairs, no.

He said he supports Turkey's entry into the EU...he didn't say he'd try and force the EU to acquiesce.

The EU was all over American internal affairs when it came to cheering on Obama in the election and ravaging Bush.

Here's the president of the EU with a recent comment on the USA;

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,615488,00.html

Quote:
Speaking before the European Parliament on Wednesday, Mirek Topolanek described the stimulus measures and financial bailouts passed by US President Barack Obama as the "way to hell."

More EU interfering in American policy;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...09/jan/28/carbon-trading-us-europe

Quote:
The Obama administration should join Europe in an ambitious new transatlantic pact to combat climate change, Brussels proposed today.

...and yet more;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7866900.stm

Quote:
The EU has increased its pressure on the US to reconsider the "Buy American" clause in the $800bn (£567bn) economic recovery package now before Congress.

Sounds like trying to influence internal affairs to me...and that's just a few I found.
What the...?
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:33 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
The USA should not involve itself in internal EU decisons and policy.



Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
The USA can express an appreciation of such an accession, but it does indeed come dangerously close to meddling in internal EU affairs. He should not press the point any further — it's quite enough.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
only ever be the decision of the EU and be taken free of any extrenal influence

I beleive I have heard China express similar sentiments when "others" talk about Tibet or Taiwan. And it sounds vaguely like what I remember hearing from the Soviet Union when the West talked about the member states and what they should be allowed to do.

I really can't believe I am hearing this kind of stuff from our EU members, express dislike for the idea sure, but to criticizes and basically say "mind yer own business" and that he really shouldn't/doesn't have the "OK" to say things like this is ridiculous.


Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
My point is, he is entitled to his opinion just as the EU is entitled to ignore it. Getting upset because he vocalizes his opinion seems like over reacting to me.

 checkmark 

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 16):

"Let me be clear: the United States strongly supports Turkey's bid to become a member of the European Union," Obama pledged in a speech at the Turkish parliament.

In the context and setting, it sounds more like an expectation, bordering on a diplomatic 'demand'.

I don't hear that at all, what I hear is that the USA strongly supports Turkey's bid to become a member of the EU. If we start amassing troops and equipment on your borders and submit resolutions to the UN, then, Yes, I will agree that the USA is overstepping its authority and is acting improperly.

Don't get me wrong, I love Europe, I hail directly from it, but taking actual offense to what Obama said? It sadly speaks volumes of how the EU feels about Turkey, not about the USA and it's President.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
radiopolitic
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:47 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 23):
Are you seriously arguing about my typo?

Yeah, with an edit function you can easily change it, there is no excuse to leave it as is.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 23):
I have business colleagues

I'm not surprised at all that your views are based purely on anecdotal evidence. And if that is the source of your views then I'm going to assume (I could very well be wrong) based on how well I know Turkey that they are part of the Istanbuli urban secular elite, which my mother's side of the family comes from, who are totally jaded, misguided and massively fearful of anything that does not fit their extremely strict interpretation of what Turkey "should be." I strongly recommend you visit and see the land for yourself and not judge it by the opinions of a few. Take it from me, someone who's studied Turkey and the Middle East for years and will continue to study it for probably the rest of my life that the perception you have of Turkey is rather limited.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 23):
Maybe it's not 2x but 1.5 times

Not even. In 20 years Turkey's population will be mid 90 million-ish at most based on current trends. Highest rate of growth reported is 1.5% which would result in about 97 million as the population. Yes, it is large and growing country there is no doubt about this but don't go posting some fantastical numbers.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 23):
Traditional patriarchal structures reinforced by religion in rural areas are not today allowing social values compatible with mainstream European values and practices. With open boarders in the EU this is very likely to lead to tensions.

No debate there, if you had said something to this effect initially I wouldn't have even responded. I took issue with your generalized statement.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 23):
Hence, my recommendation is to have a strong strategic partnership with Turkey and EU membership is not the only or the best way to have this.

As stated previously I do not want Turkey in the EU myself.
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:07 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
He said he supports Turkey's entry into the EU...he didn't say he'd try and force the EU to acquiesce.

He urged the EU to let Turkey join. For a fundamental decision such as this which depends on many factors which he did not address or acknowledge it does indeed exceed the boundaries of proper diplomatic conduct.

Given that he was apparently trying to make good weather for his somewhat difficult Turkey visit and his otherwise gracious and constructive interactions I don't expect any actual complications from this, but the responses from various european representatives were inevitable nevertheless.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
The EU was all over American internal affairs when it came to cheering on Obama in the election and ravaging Bush.

Quote and link?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Here's the president of the EU with a recent comment on the USA;

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,615488,00.html

Quote:
Speaking before the European Parliament on Wednesday, Mirek Topolanek described the stimulus measures and financial bailouts passed by US President Barack Obama as the "way to hell."

Disagreement about a policy which the US administration had requested european governments to follow. In that respect the response was justified, if undiplomatic and of course debatable in substance.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
More EU interfering in American policy;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...09/jan/28/carbon-trading-us-europe

Quote:
The Obama administration should join Europe in an ambitious new transatlantic pact to combat climate change, Brussels proposed today.

Given the consensus that climate change substantially affects us all, climate policy is an external matter for every country and as such affects the legitimate interests of other countries as well. Which of course goes both ways.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7866900.stm

Quote:
The EU has increased its pressure on the US to reconsider the "Buy American" clause in the $800bn (£567bn) economic recovery package now before Congress.

Sounds like trying to influence internal affairs to me...and that's just a few I found.

Such a protectionist clause would basically be the overture to an international trade war and would be the exact opposite of internal affairs. There's a good reason why there are international trade agreements.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):
I beleive I have heard China express similar sentiments when "others" talk about Tibet or Taiwan. And it sounds vaguely like what I remember hearing from the Soviet Union when the West talked about the member states and what they should be allowed to do.

In these cases the power in question had/has no legitimated sovereignty over the territories in question. Are you seriously comparing these cases with the USA?

Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):
I don't hear that at all, what I hear is that the USA strongly supports Turkey's bid to become a member of the EU. If we start amassing troops and equipment on your borders and submit resolutions to the UN, then, Yes, I will agree that the USA is overstepping its authority and is acting improperly.

It does not just start with that. Questioning the structure and membership of the European Union and thus its core status is a relatively severe interference with european matters.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:02 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):
I really can't believe I am hearing this kind of stuff from our EU members, express dislike for the idea sure, but to criticizes and basically say "mind yer own business" and that he really shouldn't/doesn't have the "OK" to say things like this is ridiculous.

Not really - because expressing an opinion is one thing, but Bush was far to vocal in a pushy sort of way for far too long on this issue, and I would have thought that in light of that Obama would at least have the wit to leave it a while.
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OA260
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:23 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):
Don't get me wrong, I love Europe, I hail directly from it, but taking actual offense to what Obama said? It sadly speaks volumes of how the EU feels about Turkey

I agree to an extent. Austria/Germany and France seem to have alot of opposition to it . Funny enough Greece seems to be the more pro entry than its EU partners. I think this has alot to do with finally sorting out the Cyprus issue and Agean coastline issue but relations between Greece and Turkey have never been better.

It was interesting that Obama raised the Armenian issue . This is a huge fire to ignite.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:28 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
In these cases the power in question had/has no legitimated sovereignty over the territories in question. Are you seriously comparing these cases with the USA?

Who determines this legitimacy? Certainly no court in the world will state that the comments Pres. Obama made are illegal or not within his right to state. The EU does not have sovereignty over the nations within the EU, each nation is sovereign unto itself but has agreed to follow the rules of the Treaty of Maastricht to be part of the EU. Are there not nations that favor it's inclusion in EU membership?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Questioning the structure and membership of the European Union and thus its core status is a relatively severe interference with european matters.

Are you serious? You consider his comments a "relatively severe interference with European matters"?

I heard nothing where Pres. Obama called the structure or membership of the EU into question. He merely stated his support for a petitioning nation that the EU is already considering. He did not state that the USA should be allowed to join or that China should be considered. Turkey is ALREADY an associate member of the EU and was officially recognized as a candidate for full membership in December 1999 by the European Council, negotiations started on 3 October 2005.

Also, after the eleven founding members, Turkey was one of the first countries to become a member of the Council of Europe in 1949, and was also a founding member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in 1961 and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) in 1973. It has also been an associate member of the Western European Union since 1992. Turkey signed a Customs Union agreement with the EU in 1995.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

Turkey is not just some name that was pulled out of nowhere in an inappropriate way, Turkey already is deeply intertwined with the political machinations of Europe. .

As I said, this whole issue speaks more of how the EU feels about Turkey then it does about the USA and the statements of Pres. Obama.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 28):
Not really - because expressing an opinion is one thing, but Bush was far to vocal in a pushy sort of way for far too long on this issue, and I would have thought that in light of that Obama would at least have the wit to leave it a while.

I take it he hasn't learned his place? Don't tell me he's being uppity.....  sarcastic 

Sorry if I am being harsh but this is just silly.

Tugg
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:42 am



Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
Turkey and the EU citizens have very different cultures, values and agendas. Outside of the academics and businessmen of Istambul, most of the 70 million muslim population live much as they have for centuries and are not at all enamored of western liberal democratic values. This same population is doubling every 20 years.

With statements like this, clearly broad-based stereotyping and pigeonholing of entire countries are not limited to the mouthpieces of US foreign policy. Can we coin a new term - "ugly European" syndrome, perchance?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
radiopolitic
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:08 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 29):
It was interesting that Obama raised the Armenian issue . This is a huge fire to ignite.

I was surprised too. We'll see what happens with the border possibly opening up soon and Apr 24th around the corner.

I was most amused by his mention of Hedo Turkoglu and Mehmet Okur and then the camera pans to the Speaker of Parliament looking totally bewildered. Haha.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
With statements like this, clearly broad-based stereotyping and pigeonholing of entire countries are not limited to the mouthpieces of US foreign policy. Can we coin a new term - "ugly European" syndrome, perchance?

Glad that I'm not the only one who saw that.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 29):
Greece and Turkey have never been better.

Hopefully this continues. I have a craving for bougatsa with mizithra filling  Smile.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:25 am



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Considering that the entire globe has felt free for decades to comment on America, it's politics, policies, celebrities and whatever else comes down the pike, I find it ironic that the EU doesn't wish to allow the president of the USA to have an opinion on their affairs.

I agree 100% The old saying comes in here "People who live in glass houses, should not throw stones. A little hypocritcal in my opinion for anyone from Europe to take offense at this.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Stokes
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:33 am

Touchy Euros! Not so multi-culti and openminded when it comes to your own pet issues, eh? I guess professions of cultural sensitivity are a fun way to bludgeon the benighted Amis, but clearly don't inform your own perceptions of your swarthy neighbors.

A continent of greying effetes should be so lucky to have the Turks want to join your European project, after all, who's going to make the kids to pay for all your retirees in 10-20 years?

If climate change is "everyone's business," then so is the success of secular Islam. Let 'em in, or fight the tide, Europe.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:35 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 30):
Sorry if I am being harsh but this is just silly.

Not harsh, it just seems like the point keeps being missed. This is a purely European issue to be decided by European countries. That's all there is to it.
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Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitatio

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:43 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 30):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
In these cases the power in question had/has no legitimated sovereignty over the territories in question. Are you seriously comparing these cases with the USA?

Who determines this legitimacy?

The respective populations. Since the obsolescence of fictional divine appointment, the legitimacy of a government depends entirely on the assent of the governed population.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 30):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Questioning the structure and membership of the European Union and thus its core status is a relatively severe interference with european matters.

Are you serious? You consider his comments a "relatively severe interference with European matters"?

Yes. A foreign head of state trying to push a union of sovereign nations to pool their sovereignty with another nation which this foreign leader has strategic interests in.

No doubt Obama is not the first nor conceivably the last making transgressions of that kind, but it remains a transgression nevertheless, if apparently a calculated one. EU leaders will have to criticize the interference publically, but I expect that it will have no real repercussions. They know how the game is played, and at this time there is a relatively high level of trust.
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitatio

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:49 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 33):
I agree 100% The old saying comes in here "People who live in glass houses, should not throw stones. A little hypocritcal in my opinion for anyone from Europe to take offense at this.

You might have a point if a foreign head of state or head of government had made demands to let another nation join the USA or make a similarly fundamental change of status. Since that has not been the case, you don't.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:05 am



Quoting A332 (Reply 17):
I believe Obama was more interested in extending an arm of cooperation to the Muslim world (or an olive branch of sorts), more so than pushing hard to have the EU accept Turkey...

Bingo. Not the most diplomatic way of doing it, but Obama is rather desperate to improve diplomatic ties with countries in this region, and Turkey is an essential ally when politically dealing with the Middle East.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):
I beleive I have heard China express similar sentiments when "others" talk about Tibet or Taiwan. And it sounds vaguely like what I remember hearing from the Soviet Union when the West talked about the member states and what they should be allowed to do.

Are you honestly comparing the EU with the Soviet and Chinese regimes and the treatment they gave Warsaw pact states and Tibet, respectively?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Considering that the entire globe has felt free for decades to comment on America, it's politics, policies, celebrities and whatever else comes down the pike, I find it ironic that the EU doesn't wish to allow the president of the USA to have an opinion on their affairs.

The 'Entire Globe' has mainly commented on the USA's disasterous foreign policy in the last, say, 8 years. On the other hand, the USA's internal politics are of zero interest to most people in Europe. The diplomatic dealings of the US with its neighouring countries generate little comment from any other major nation.
This instance would be more akin to a EU diplomat coming to the US and telling George Bush that building a giant wall at the border with Mexico is a mistake.

That being said, Obama can give Turkey all the support he wants, it ultimately won't change anything to Turkey's integration process to the EU, so the outrage is a bit unnecessary.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:27 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 38):
Are you honestly comparing the EU with the Soviet and Chinese regimes and the treatment they gave Warsaw pact states and Tibet, respectively?

I am comparing the types of statements being made here with those by the countries mentioned. Nothing more.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
The USA should not involve itself in internal EU decisons and policy.



Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
The USA can express an appreciation of such an accession, but it does indeed come dangerously close to meddling in internal EU affairs. He should not press the point any further — it's quite enough.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
only ever be the decision of the EU and be taken free of any extrenal influence

Don't tell me you can't here the echos of past "State issued" retorts by those governments? I'll even throw in past statements by the US government on the War on Terror and our treatment of "enemy combatants". The world has every right to comment on the actions of other nations. The world butts into other nations actions all the time, for the free societies to start telling others to not comment is ridiculous.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:31 am

To our European friends,

Sorry to have elected a guy who thinks he's President of the world,. Not all of us voted for him though. Some of us on the right think the US should generally butt out of Europe's affairs, we only ask you do the same of ours.

Our President does not seem to think so though.
 
airtrainer
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:39 am



Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
Uhmm, Mr Obama needs to join the EU before he gets to invite others to become members. (...)
We don't have to 'marry' every country we want as a partner. Sarkozy might well "strongly support" Turkey's becoming the 51st state of the USA and push for this. How would Americans appreciate the diplomacy of this attitude.

Couldn't say it better myself !
Life is short : eat dessert first !
 
ozglobal
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:04 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
Turkey and the EU citizens have very different cultures, values and agendas. Outside of the academics and businessmen of Istambul, most of the 70 million muslim population live much as they have for centuries and are not at all enamored of western liberal democratic values. This same population is doubling every 20 years.

With statements like this, clearly broad-based stereotyping and pigeonholing of entire countries are not limited to the mouthpieces of US foreign policy. Can we coin a new term - "ugly European" syndrome, perchance?

You're right. I very careless worded this paragraph. I would better put it:

Traditional patriarchal structures reinforced by religion in rural areas are not today allowing social values compatible with mainstream European values and practices. With open boarders in the EU this is very likely to lead to tensions.

Hence, my recommendation is to have a strong strategic partnership with Turkey and EU membership is not the only or the best way to have this.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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bwest
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:16 am

Hm, if Turkey gets into the EU, I wonder what that would mean for al the Greek Turks who lost their homes and property during the silent ethnic cleansing that has been going on for the better part of the last 50 years...
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babybus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:55 am



Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
"Europe gains by diversity of ethnicity, tradition and faith - it is not diminished by it,"

Notice he didn't give any examples  Wink

Quoting Ozglobal (Thread starter):
"And Turkish membership would broaden and strengthen Europe's foundation once more."

And bankrupt it. Well done Mr Obama.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:00 am

I'm definitely going to start campaigning for Turkey to become part of the United States of America as soon as possible.
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Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:14 am



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 40):
Sorry to have elected a guy who thinks he's President of the world,. Not all of us voted for him though.

As I've said several times already: This calculated transgression is not a big deal in context with Obama's highly constructive behaviour otherwise.

And we'll take that one any day over the loser you had (s)elected twice before.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 40):
Some of us on the right think the US should generally butt out of Europe's affairs, we only ask you do the same of ours.

Wars of aggression are not internal affairs.

Global pollution is not an internal affair.

Severe human rights violations are not internal affairs.

Violations of trade agreements are not internal affairs.

These exceptions do of course apply to every country.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 40):
Our President does not seem to think so though.

If he gets the turkish leaders to swallow his clear position regarding the earlier human rights violations in Turkey a bit easier this way, it may well be worth it overall. He just shouldn't overdo it.
 
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OA260
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:34 am



Quoting Bwest (Reply 43):
Hm, if Turkey gets into the EU, I wonder what that would mean for al the Greek Turks who lost their homes and property during the silent ethnic cleansing that has been going on for the better part of the last 50 years

Well Turkey knows it wont be allowed into the EU without a full and final settlement to the Cyprus issue and to be honest its not that much of an issue as Turkey wants a final solution also. Part of any settlement is compensation for those that lost their homes when they fled South. The majority of claims from Turish Cypriots who owned property in the South has been resolved. Partly because of the government of Cyprus has implemented laws a few years back to give equal rights to all citizens of the Island North and South. Turkish Cypriots get free healthcare and schooling in the South. North of the border Greeks have no right to such facilities and the small Greek community who stayed are fed by the UN.

The national broadcaster RIK also has programs in Turkish and the Cyprus Euro coins are in Greek and Turkish. Things are alot better than 5 years ago thats for sure. The other issue to resolve is the amount of illegal settlers that were moved into Cyprus by the Turkish mainland and many were given stolen property that belonged to Greek Cypriots. Also some British and German's who bought stolen property can now have their homes seized in UK and Germany since Cyprus joined the EU. Alot of them knew the property was formerly owned by Greeks so I have no sympathy if they loose everything.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:53 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
He urged the EU to let Turkey join. For a fundamental decision such as this which depends on many factors which he did not address or acknowledge it does indeed exceed the boundaries of proper diplomatic conduct.

The fundaments of this are quite simply that Turkey in the EU would be the weight to upset the sweet Franco-German marriage that the Union rests on. There's also a good deal of that good old-fashioned European chauvinism, only made up to look nice with all the fancy wordings.
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:58 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 47):
The fundaments of this are quite simply that Turkey in the EU would be the weight to upset the sweet Franco-German marriage that the Union rests on. There's also a good deal of that good old-fashioned European chauvinism, only made up to look nice with all the fancy wordings.

Sure. We're just evil. No reason to think any further than that.  Yeah sure
 
AverageUser
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RE: Obama EU - Please Don't Send Out The Invitations.

Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:41 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
Sure. We're just evil. No reason to think any further than tha

If you say so, but I feel the Franco-German axis ("we"?) is not evil, just stuffy and stagnated.
I appreciate Obama for his acute sense of the functioning of the worldwide political arena -- here we have a man that can rise above the level of resigned mediocrity that plagues the EU and steal the show 6-0.

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