garnetpalmetto
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Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:17 pm

Somali pirates have hijacked the Maersk Alabama

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE53721Z20090408

NAIROBI (Reuters) - Somali pirates hijacked a U.S.-flagged, Danish-owned container ship on Wednesday with 20 American crew on board in a major escalation in attacks off the lawless Horn of Africa nation, officials said.

The 17,000 ton Maersk Alabama was seized off Mogadishu far out in the Indian Ocean, but all its crew were believed to be unharmed, Andrew Mwangura, coordinator of the Mombasa-based East African Seafarers' Assistance Program, told Reuters .

Denmark's A.P. Moller-Maersk confirmed the U.S.-flagged Maersk Alabama had been attacked by pirates about 500 km (300 miles) off Somalia and was presumed hijacked. The company said it had 20 American crew on board.


So the question is what to do in this major foreign policy/national security challenge for the Obama administration. Personally I almost have to think that some sort of military response (probably in the form of a SEAL team recapturing the ship) would have to come.
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travelin man
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:38 pm



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Thread starter):
So the question is what to do in this major foreign policy/national security challenge for the Obama administration. Personally I almost have to think that some sort of military response (probably in the form of a SEAL team recapturing the ship) would have to come.

That was my first thought -- the SEALS or other type of special forces. I can't imagine that there would be no military response to this. Hopefully by the time this is over the pirates will think twice about taking over a US flagged ship.
 
racko
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:21 pm

They are already free. Seems like just the thought of the SEALs marching in ended it.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:22 pm

Ask the French how it's done - pay them the ransom to get the crew out safely and don't give them a chance to enjoy the money.
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thomasphoto60
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:37 pm



Quoting Racko (Reply 2):



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 1):
That was my first thought -- the SEALS or other type of special forces. I can't imagine that there would be no military response to this. Hopefully by the time this is over the pirates will think twice about taking over a US flagged ship.



Quoting Racko (Reply 2):
They are already free. Seems like just the thought of the SEALs marching in ended it.

No need for the Seals, the crew re-took the ship

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html

Congrats to the crew of the Maersk Alabama  bigthumbsup 

Thomas
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curlyheadboy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:56 pm



Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 5):
No need for the Seals, the crew re-took the ship

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html

Congrats to the crew of the Maersk Alabama

Thomas

Very glad for the good outcome!
Now, it would just be even better if they could keep a track on the pirates vessel and give out the coordinates so that the USN can have some fun with them bastards... Big grin
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Tugger
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:40 pm



Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 4):
No need for the Seals, the crew re-took the ship

Congrats to the crew! Brave of them to fight back. I'll be curious to hear the details of what happened. Looks like the Maritime Academy produces very competent and bad-ass crew!
Funny to think that the reason most shippers don't use USA crew is there cost but this one event likely saved several million dollars alone.

So does this make USA flagged ships less likely to be targeted by the pirates or does it make them more of a target? I think it makes them the ships to avoid.

Tugg
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:23 pm

Not to be the wet blanket here...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html

It now looks like the pirates still hold the captain hostage, although the crew were planning on swapping the captured pirate for their captain, the deal failed and the pirates not only regained their captured comrade but also are keeping the Maersk Alabama's captain hostage.
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UAL747
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:29 pm

Crew has been live on CNN on the phone with reporter....but had to leave suddenly.

Crew is not free, the captain is hostage....war ship on it's way to the Maersk Ship.

We cannot dedicated huge amounts of warships to this area, therefore my suggestion for a short-term treatment:

Schedule ships to depart together, perhaps 15-20, with two warship escorts at a time, and have the country of ownership/interest pay for the escort, or the company, until something more permanent is done.

If you go out on your own outside of these scheduled departures, then you are on your own.

UAL
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NIKV69
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:33 pm

I just hope every one of those pirates is sleeping with the fish soon. This is getting out of hand. We have to start letting these ships have guns to protect themselves.
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UAL747
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:15 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
This is getting out of hand. We have to start letting these ships have guns to protect themselves.

And also shift our focus to the chaos that is Somalia and the continent of Africa....a continent that has been left unchecked by all major nations. Bar a few of them.

UAL
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:50 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
This is getting out of hand. We have to start letting these ships have guns to protect themselves.

International Law prevents this I believe, merchant ships are unarmed as a rule, warships are not...I do not have any legal references near me so I cannpt confirm this but having gone to a Maritime Academy (in a non-license track though) I am fairly certain of it.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:11 am

A little off topic but interesting is this entry from the US Naval Institute's blog.

http://blog.usni.org/?p=906

The article corroborates what MarSciGuy said and I was thinking - merchant ships are unarmed as a rule of int'l law and even during the World Wars, arming merchant ships to help stave off the U-Boat threat wasn't a decision taken lightly.

Also the latest news is that the USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance. Somewhat ironic, given Commodore Bainbridge's role in the First Barbary War.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:33 am



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 12):
A little off topic but interesting is this entry from the US Naval Institute's blog.

http://blog.usni.org/?p=906

The article corroborates what MarSciGuy said and I was thinking - merchant ships are unarmed as a rule of int'l law and even during the World Wars, arming merchant ships to help stave off the U-Boat threat wasn't a decision taken lightly.

Thanks for doing the legwork for me  Wink
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BMI727
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:06 am



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):
Schedule ships to depart together, perhaps 15-20, with two warship escorts at a time, and have the country of ownership/interest pay for the escort, or the company, until something more permanent is done.

The convoy idea is good, and it has worked before. The USN might have to run this like the tanker war. I would also guess that using hunter-killer teams of P-3s and A-10s would help keep the pirates at bay.
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Doona
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:52 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I would also guess that using hunter-killer teams of P-3s and A-10s would help keep the pirates at bay.

Identifying the pirate vessels might be difficult from the air while on patrol. It's not like they're sailing around in 32-gun frigates flying the Jolly Roger. (Though, I must say, if they did, they'd have my respect  silly  Wink

On the other hand, if there are aircraft on standby to respond to alerts from merchant vessels, it might work.

Isn't there some sort of multi-national anti-pirate task force down there?

Cheers
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:25 am



Quoting Doona (Reply 15):

Isn't there some sort of multi-national anti-pirate task force down there?

There is, but the problem is, of course, they can't be everywhere at once, and the pirates seemed to have shifted their hunting grounds now that the waters closer to the Seychelles have calmed down and become fair enough for them to conduct operations.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:41 am



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 12):
Also the latest news is that the USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance.

Interesting. I landed on that ship not too long ago! Really great crew.
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Alessandro
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:45 am



Quoting Doona (Reply 15):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I would also guess that using hunter-killer teams of P-3s and A-10s would help keep the pirates at bay.

Identifying the pirate vessels might be difficult from the air while on patrol. It's not like they're sailing around in 32-gun frigates flying the Jolly Roger. (Though, I must say, if they did, they'd have my respect

On the other hand, if there are aircraft on standby to respond to alerts from merchant vessels, it might work.

Isn't there some sort of multi-national anti-pirate task force down there?

Cheers
Mats

Yes, but the area is huge, Norway is sending in another ship, Sweden already got ships among a loads of other countries.
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 12):
Also the latest news is that the USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance.

Provide assistance, indeed.



Armament:
• 90 cells Mk 41 vertical launch systems
BGM-109 Tomahawk
• RGM-84 Harpoon SSM (not in Flight IIa units)
SM-2 Standard SAM (has an ASuW mode)
SM-3 Standard Ballistic missile defense missile for AEGIS BMD (DDG 61, DDG 55 and expanding)
• RIM-162 ESSM SAM (DDG-79 onward)
• RUM-139 Vertical Launch ASROC
• one 5 inch (127 mm/54) Mk-45 (lightweight gun) (DDG-51 through -80)
• one 5 inch (127 mm/62) Mk-45 mod 4 (lightweight gun) (DDG-81 on)
• two 20 mm Phalanx CIWS (DDG-51 through -83, several later units)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Seahawk.750pix.jpg

Armament
* Up to three Mark 46 torpedo or Mark 50 torpedo,
* AGM-114 Hellfire missile, 4 Hellfire missiles for SH-60B and HH-60H, 8 Hellfire missiles for MH-60S Block III.
* AGM-119 Penguin missile (being phased out),
* M60 machine gun or, M240 machine gun or GAU-16/A machine gun or GAU-17/A Minigun
* Rapid Airborne Mine Clearance System (RAMICS) using Mk 44 Mod 0 30mm Cannon

Source: Wikipedia
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:15 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 11):
International Law prevents this I believe, merchant ships are unarmed as a rule, warships are no

OK, just an idea: pirates don't abide by International Law either. So, what prevents merchant ships to be armed? Can't they just do it and defend themselves? Sure, it might be illegal, but nobody cares in international waters apparently.

Why wouldn't this work?
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vc10
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:33 pm

So I understand it this is a Danish ship flying the USA flag with 20 crew members, all American .

This sounds very strange to me as most ship's crew today are from the third world, so was this crew on a training detail, or was this a honey trap for the pirates.

Just a thought

littlevc10
 
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par13del
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:53 pm



Quoting VC10 (Reply 21):
This sounds very strange to me as most ship's crew today are from the third world, so was this crew on a training detail, or was this a honey trap for the pirates.

Ship is usually charted by the US military, possible sensitive cargo last run? This run is not under military contract, so possibly the crew never left in anticipation of additional contracts?

Just another thought
 
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:32 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance.

Provide assistance, indeed.

You forgot the all important stat of speed! For the Bainbridge, the best max speed I find is 35 kts which is decent. Of course I always wonder what the "full military speed" is.


Tugg
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:05 pm

And the German navy now got problems what to with two batches of captured pirates.
The first batch were shipped to Kenia (imprisoned in air conditioned cells onboard, with three square halal meals cooked by the frigate's crew for the prisoners every day). The other batch are on the way there.
Two German star lawyers went to Kenia on their own expenses to defend the pirates (who claim to be human trafficers smuggling people to Yemen, so whydid theycarry a whole load of weaponry and were seen right in the vicinity of a ship, which had called a Mayday for a pirate attack?), claiming thatthe German military has no right to operate in these waters, also that the piratesshould have been brought to Germany for trial (sure, and then apply for political asylum for themselves and their extended families  Yeah sure ). Membersof the communists and the Greens are there to watch the trial as well. Also, there were complaints that Kenian jails are not fit for prisoners (I wonder if the Somali ones are in anyway better?).
It didn't help that the commander of the frigate, who is not a trained cop, dumped the pirate's weapons overboard after recording them. Now the lawyers claim that the weapons never existed.
Theyshould have posted a few members of the federal police on each ship, just to make sure that all evidence is secured in a court-proof way.

Jan
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fr8mech
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:25 pm

The problem is, that the pirates have several other

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
Theyshould have posted a few members of the federal police on each ship, just to make sure that all evidence is secured in a court-proof way.

Or maybe the pirates should have been handled the way they were in previous centuries...
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:38 pm



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 20):
Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 11):
International Law prevents this I believe, merchant ships are unarmed as a rule, warships are no

OK, just an idea: pirates don't abide by International Law either. So, what prevents merchant ships to be armed? Can't they just do it and defend themselves? Sure, it might be illegal, but nobody cares in international waters apparently.

Why wouldn't this work?

You remember how the cowboy diplomacy worked under GW, don't you?.....Whichever country armed their merchantmen would have their merchantmen treated as Naval vessels whenevwer they came into port, if they were allowed into port....a GREAT way to bring international tyrade to a screeching halt considering well over half of all international trade is conducted via cargo ships...and in addition, merchant mariners are trained to a small degree in terrorism training and such but are by no means naval officers and crew - some may be Naval reserve but that is not the rule.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 22):

Quoting VC10 (Reply 21):
This sounds very strange to me as most ship's crew today are from the third world, so was this crew on a training detail, or was this a honey trap for the pirates.

Ship is usually charted by the US military, possible sensitive cargo last run? This run is not under military contract, so possibly the crew never left in anticipation of additional contracts?

Just another thought

This ship was carrying humanitarian aid and was operated by the US subsidiary of AP Moller Maersk - any US flagged ship has to be crewed by US crew (per the Jones Act I believe.)
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vc10
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:31 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 28):
This ship was carrying humanitarian aid and was operated by the US subsidiary of AP Moller Maersk - any US flagged ship has to be crewed by US crew (per the Jones Act I believe.)

Thanks for the reminder as I had forgotten Mr Jones and his act, so I had to look it up and actually under the Act 75% of the crew have to be American citizen, but you were nearly correct.

Thanks again

littlevc10
 
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:33 pm



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 27):
Or maybe the pirates should have been handled the way they were in previous centuries...

 checkmark 

It looks like USS Bainbridge has some pretty ample yardarms to hang them from.

Military justice on the high seas - bring it on!
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AGM100
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:50 pm

Big version: Width: 747 Height: 507 File size: 58kb


Seems simple enough to me .... picture says it all. May not be US marines but some security on board with a like minded weapon would help.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:31 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
Big version: Width: 747 Height: 507 File size: 58kb


Seems simple enough to me .... picture says it all. May not be US marines but some security on board with a like minded weapon would help.

The only problem with that is that there are 5 people aboard the lifeboat - the Captain and 4 pirates - in a 28 foot lifeboat. The odds of even a crack shot (or 4 of them to favor the snipers) hitting all the pirates simultaneously without the pirates having knowledge they are being targeted and NOT hitting the captain are fairly remote. If the pirates had any inkling they were targeted it wouldn't take much of a finger twitch for the situation to end badly.
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BMI727
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:25 pm



Quoting Doona (Reply 15):
Identifying the pirate vessels might be difficult from the air while on patrol. It's not like they're sailing around in 32-gun frigates flying the Jolly Roger.

Actually the more I think about it, the AC-130 makes more sense. The long loiter time could come in handy. Just keep a P-3 and and AC-130 on station in the area at all times to track all of the traffic in the are and they can respond quickly to any priate attacks.
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PPVRA
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:25 pm

A few years ago I heard of companies that ferry pleasure boats between ports for clients. I'm not talking about that huge ship that carries several boats, I'm talking about sailing the actual boat. I heard it was possible to get a summer job, so I decided to look into it since I like that kind of thing. One of the "recommended" skill sets to have was anti-piracy/terrorism training. . . that was enough for me, and then to think these guys that go out to sea all the time can't arm themselves. Absolutely insane.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
AGM100
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:40 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 30):
the pirates had any inkling they were targeted it wouldn't take much of a finger twitch for the situation to end badly.

Its true ,

But my solution is more suited for events prior to the pirates attacking. Every US flagged cargo vessel should have a armed security person on board. Whats the big deal ... hire a security guard for the ship give him a M4 of M500A , MP5 and be done with it. Who cares about the law on the seas ..its a private companies right to have security for there employees .

Set up a half mile security zone around the vessel and fire warning flares at whoever comes inside that area. If they don't stop ... then you must take action.

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 26):
You remember how the cowboy diplomacy worked under GW, don't you?.....

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  Yep it worked .... " Iraq on the path the Democracy"- Quote- President Obama
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:58 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
A few years ago I heard of companies that ferry pleasure boats between ports for clients. I'm not talking about that huge ship that carries several boats, I'm talking about sailing the actual boat. I heard it was possible to get a summer job, so I decided to look into it since I like that kind of thing. One of the "recommended" skill sets to have was anti-piracy/terrorism training. . . that was enough for me, and then to think these guys that go out to sea all the time can't arm themselves. Absolutely insane.

I can tell you from personal experience, not as a merchant mariner but as a scientist who goes to sea for about 2/3 the average amount of time a licensed mariner sails a year that it is a labor of love, much, I'd think, like "sailing" in the wild blue yonder...

A love though that does start to lose its shine when you are wanting to settle down...100-130 days/year gets a bit tiring at that point  Smile

BTW I know of several people who have ferried yachts for others, often from New England to Florida, mostly college kids on a break wanting to make a couple bucks.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:07 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):

Set up a half mile security zone around the vessel and fire warning flares at whoever comes inside that area. If they don't stop ... then you must take action.

high pressure firehoses are the "accepted" means of deterrent - and apparently it worked in the case of the ALABAMA the first time, then the pirates came back pissed with guns blaring....

I am thinknig a better way to do it is to fast track some of the technology that was being developed for non lethal crowd/riot control - I think it involved high frequency sound though I don't remember exactly, but either way it was meant to disorient the target and bring them to their knees. This would be a great way to temporarily incapacitate the attackers and not do lethal harm, in addition (I'd think) to ducking the legality issues. the neutrality and free passage of ocean going commerce is an absolute necessity, otherwise global commerce would come crashing down around our ears, making the recent economic hiccup look like a pothole compared to the cratering economy that would cause.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 26):
You remember how the cowboy diplomacy worked under GW, don't you?.....

rotfl rotfl rotfl Yep it worked .... " Iraq on the path the Democracy"- Quote- President Obama

I did deserve some of that, but the effect that that style of diplomacy had on the international relationships that are absolutely necessary for international trade could not be sustainable permanently, and once you get the ball rolling having started arming merchantmen outside of a WW2 situation, you can't easily bring things back into equilibrium.
"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
 
BMI727
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:18 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 35):
I am thinknig a better way to do it is to fast track some of the technology that was being developed for non lethal crowd/riot control - I think it involved high frequency sound though I don't remember exactly, but either way it was meant to disorient the target and bring them to their knees.

Just bring back the PT Boats. That ought to do the trick.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
AGM100
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:31 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 35):
high pressure firehoses are the "accepted" means of deterrent

I will take a RPG against your hose any day man ...

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 35):
am thinknig a better way to do it is to fast track some of the technology that was being developed for non lethal crowd/riot control

I like it ... but remember the pirates have some standoff capability . A small boat armed with 12.7 mm , 23mm cannons or RPG's is what these vessels are dealing with. Its a tough issue ... but I am all for fast tracking new non lethal tools as long as they can help .

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 35):
absolutely necessary for international trade could not be sustainable permanently

What is needed for international trade is for us to build and produce things that people need. Don't worry , if you produce good stuff they will buy it from you .. no one cares about cowboys. ,
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MCOflyer
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:53 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Just bring back the PT Boats. That ought to do the trick.

I agree that an advance craft capable of carrying out such patrols for escorting ships ought to be brought in to service.

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MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:06 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 37):

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 35):
absolutely necessary for international trade could not be sustainable permanently

What is needed for international trade is for us to build and produce things that people need. Don't worry , if you produce good stuff they will buy it from you .. no one cares about cowboys. ,

Err, I was not meaning this from a US-centric pperspective but from a global perspective, yes people need to buy things in order for there to be demand for the ships to transport those goods, I had taken that part for granted as an "understood" in my prior post  Smile
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stasisLAX
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:14 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 35):
I am thinknig a better way to do it is to fast track some of the technology that was being developed for non lethal crowd/riot control - I think it involved high frequency sound though I don't remember exactly, but either way it was meant to disorient the target and bring them to their knees. This would be a great way to temporarily incapacitate the attackers and not do lethal harm

From today's NYT:

"Maersk’s senior director for security, Finn Brodersen, said in an interview with the International Herald Tribune last month that three of the company’s ships had been attacked off Somalia — all unsuccessfully. Mr. Brodersen said Maersk, like most major shippers, did not favor the use of armed guards on its ships, largely for safety and liability reasons. Fuel or fumes could be ignited by gunfire, for example, and crew members would be put at further risk if a gun battle took place.

Maersk also has tested LRADs, long-range acoustic devices. These sonic cannons, which look like TV satellite dishes, shoot disabling sound waves at approaching pirate ships. But these were found to be ineffective, Mr. Brodersen said, and they “expose the crew to being shot at.”

As part of their insurance coverage, most of the major merchant lines with ships transiting the Gulf of Aden have contracts with professional crisis teams that are called when hijack situations occur. These teams include former special forces commandos and trained hostage negotiators who deal with the hijackers and their ransom demands, deliveries of food and supplies to ships during lengthy negotiations, the relaying of ransom payments (usually in U.S. 100-dollar bills), and the safe release of hostages."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/wo...ica/10pirates.html?pagewanted=1&hp
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Pyrex
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:22 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Provide assistance, indeed.

Most of that crap is absolutely useless when you're dealing with pirates.
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:15 am

US Navy to the rescue! Kick some ass!
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:16 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 40):

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 35):
I am thinknig a better way to do it is to fast track some of the technology that was being developed for non lethal crowd/riot control - I think it involved high frequency sound though I don't remember exactly, but either way it was meant to disorient the target and bring them to their knees. This would be a great way to temporarily incapacitate the attackers and not do lethal harm

From today's NYT:

"Maersk’s senior director for security, Finn Brodersen, said in an interview with the International Herald Tribune last month that three of the company’s ships had been attacked off Somalia — all unsuccessfully. Mr. Brodersen said Maersk, like most major shippers, did not favor the use of armed guards on its ships, largely for safety and liability reasons. Fuel or fumes could be ignited by gunfire, for example, and crew members would be put at further risk if a gun battle took place.

Maersk also has tested LRADs, long-range acoustic devices. These sonic cannons, which look like TV satellite dishes, shoot disabling sound waves at approaching pirate ships. But these were found to be ineffective, Mr. Brodersen said, and they “expose the crew to being shot at.”

As part of their insurance coverage, most of the major merchant lines with ships transiting the Gulf of Aden have contracts with professional crisis teams that are called when hijack situations occur. These teams include former special forces commandos and trained hostage negotiators who deal with the hijackers and their ransom demands, deliveries of food and supplies to ships during lengthy negotiations, the relaying of ransom payments (usually in U.S. 100-dollar bills), and the safe release of hostages."

Ah, touche  Wink....well there's got to be a non-lethal and internationally acceptable way to deal with them that is practical...

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):


Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Provide assistance, indeed.

Most of that crap is absolutely useless when you're dealing with pirates.

I'd suggest that you are right Pyrex except for the fact that it will give the hostage a fair dose of hope knowing that the Navy is there to assist however possible...
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pilotsmoe
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:24 am

I say just push them overboard. People from that part of the world can't typically swim
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:02 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):
Most of that crap is absolutely useless when you're dealing with pirates.

Ah, I suppose you're right. All those pesky international laws and rules of engagement.

It seems to be a great business opportunity for Blackwater. They already have an air force, why not a Navy? Just get some PT boat / corvette / small frigate sized ships and mercenary crews. Shoot first and ask questions later, just like they did in Iraq. In fact, in international waters and when not operating on any particular government's behalf, I imagine they have even less restrictions on them than they did in Iraq.

One would think having two Blackwater patrol craft per merchant ship would lower the insurance premiums enough to make it worthwhile, no?
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:02 am

Xe would probably end up shooting and killing innocent fishermen that came slightly too close to passing merchantmen...
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UAL747
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:08 am



Quoting Pilotsmoe (Reply 44):
I say just push them overboard. People from that part of the world can't typically swim

I hope that doesn't mean what it sounded like....

UAL
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:41 am



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 47):
I hope that doesn't mean what it sounded like....

Oh calm down. There's nothing racist, or politically incorrect with what he said.

He's absolutely right... swimming is not a common skill in both the Middle East, and the Horn of Africa. A few months ago, one of the pirate boats capsized, and a bunch of them died because they did not know how to swim. In fact the Kenya-based East Africa Seafarers Assistance Program says, "Unfortunately many of the Somalis involved in the pirate actions cannot swim, which explains the high death toll among the young pirates."

And there are numerous news stories reporting the flood of Somalia refugees attempting to cross the Gulf of Aden, but who die because they are unable, or weak, swimmers.

So there's no reason to get all worked up.
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:00 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 46):
Xe would probably end up shooting and killing innocent fishermen that came slightly too close to passing merchantmen...

Hopefully not. We're talking about modern merchantman traveling at reasonably high speed in the open seas. Can't see why any fisherman would want to approach such a vessel at high speed like the pirates do.

Something should be done about this. These ransoms come out of our pockets, as does the tax money to keep those multi-national forces on patrol. I know life is bleak in Somalia, but kidnapping merchantmen on the high seas is not the solution.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!

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