AverageUser
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The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:21 pm

The Wilkins Ice Shelf in Antarctica has now lost the final wedge of ice that kept a large part of it from floating into the Ocean.

The general map:

The latest development:

For comparison, here's the same area in 1992:



The wedge to Charcot Island was healthy then.


More: http://www.esa.int/esaEO/SEMWZS5DHNF_index_0.html
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:42 pm

It's all natural. It's all a solar cycle. Global warming is a Liberal myth.

*hums it to himself like a mantra*
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
A346Dude
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:20 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's all natural. It's all a solar cycle.

Why does that sound so dumb to you? It's a legitimate possibility.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:23 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 2):
Why does that sound so dumb to you? It's a legitimate possibility.

So is Global Warming. But get one 32F day in April and some people see it as proof that Global Warming is a myth.
Step into my office, baby
 
Klaus
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:30 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 2):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's all natural. It's all a solar cycle.

Why does that sound so dumb to you? It's a legitimate possibility.

So far scientists have determined that the variation in solar output can't account for the observed climate change without considering greenhouse gas emissions. That ruling is (like all scientific analysis) open for potential corrections. But the likelihood of greenhouse gases somehow turning out to be completely irrelevant and harmless after all seems exceedingly minute given the evidence to the contrary.

If we're looking at initial precursors of a large-scale collapse of the antarctic ice shields, this can get quite nasty in its consequences for all coastal nations.
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:31 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 3):
Quoting A346Dude (Reply 2):
Why does that sound so dumb to you? It's a legitimate possibility.

So is Global Warming. But get one 32F day in April and some people see it as proof that Global Warming is a myth

And some people think that because a chunk of Ice falls off in the Arctic or Antarctic caps that means the planet has a fever. Check out cryosphere.com and you will see that the satellites shows the Antarctic has been running above the thirty year average since they started monitoring
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:32 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 5):
cryosphere.com

That some kind of water filtration website.
Step into my office, baby
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:35 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
So far scientists have determined that the variation in solar output can't account for the observed climate change without considering greenhouse gas emissions

 redflag   redflag   redflag 

What observed climate change. If you are talking about temps then the observed temps have not warmed since 1998. And yes there are many scientists who do put solar output in sync with solar activity. Just like with the solar minimum that is currently going on has probably caused the temps to actulaly lower the last few years. But do not let the fact that the planet has not warmed in ten years get in the way of your global warming religion
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:37 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 6):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 5):
cryosphere.com

That some kind of water filtration website.

Being from Illinois you should know that it is the University of Southern Illinois website.
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:38 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 7):
But do not let the fact that the planet has not warmed in ten years get in the way of your global warming religion

So..it not a "natural cycle"? If it was it would have kept warming up..
Step into my office, baby
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:40 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 8):
Being from Illinois you should know that it is the University of Southern Illinois website.

They sell water filtration systems now? I suggest you go to the link you provided. Maybe you are wrong and misspelled it.
Step into my office, baby
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:42 am

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.south.jpg

According to today's update the Antarctic is running above normal for this time of year by almost 1,000,000 sq Km. The end is near for the antarctic  Sad
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:47 am

And the Arctic peaked out just short of it's average by a couple of hundred thousand Kilometers so right now the combined caps are running abover average with there combined total. The end is near. Head to the hills and sell your oceanfront property.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:56 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 12):
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 11):
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.south.jpg

So it wasn't cryosphere.com !!
Step into my office, baby
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:56 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 10):
They sell water filtration systems now

Speaking of water and the fear that the melting Antarctic will drown us all out.

Rise of sea levels is 'the greatest lie ever told'

Quote:

But if there is one scientist who knows more about sea levels than anyone else in the world it is the Swedish geologist and physicist Nils-Axel Mörner, formerly chairman of the INQUA International Commission on Sea Level Change. And the uncompromising verdict of Dr Mörner, who for 35 years has been using every known scientific method to study sea levels all over the globe, is that all this talk about the sea rising is nothing but a colossal scare story.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...is-the-greatest-lie-ever-told.html
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:58 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
So it wasn't cryosphere.com !!

Sorry  Smile I was shooting from the hip.
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:58 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
Rise of sea levels is 'the greatest lie ever told'

Hey it was in the Bible. Ask Noah. It must be true.
Step into my office, baby
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:02 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
Rise of sea levels is 'the greatest lie ever told'

Hey it was in the Bible. Ask Noah. It must be true.

God must of released a huge amount of CO2 to cause that amount of Climate change. I do not think Detroit was around at that time.
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:05 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 17):
God must of released a huge amount of CO2 to cause that amount of Climate change. I do not think Detroit was around at that time.

What % of CO2 is because of cars? and what % is from other sources?

Lets see who googles faster.. 1..2..3.. go...
Step into my office, baby
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:30 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 18):
What % of CO2 is because of cars? and what % is from other sources?

Lets see who googles faster.. 1..2..3.. go...

A very small, tiny little one. And that answer without Yahoo my preferred search engine
 
dxing
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:33 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's all natural. It's all a solar cycle. Global warming is a Liberal myth.

You should be pining for a way to get that ice to CA to solve some of your water problems. Not too many years ago some middle eastern nations were tyring to cook up a way to do just that.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:59 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 19):
A very small, tiny little one. And that answer without Yahoo my preferred search engine

Cars are they tiny bit or "other sources" are the tiny part?
Step into my office, baby
 
A346Dude
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:00 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 18):
What % of CO2 is because of cars? and what % is from other sources?

Forget CO2. What about the other greenhouse gases, like methane and particularly water vapor, which are significantly larger constituents of the atmosphere.

Sorry, what am I saying? We all know that CO2 alone is the sole driver of temperature on this planet.  Yeah sure
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
aircatalonia
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:02 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's all a solar cycle

A solar cycle? Well we are at a solar minimum right now. Wait until we hit the next maximum in 5 years  Wink
 
mt99
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:02 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 22):
Sorry, what am I saying? We all know that CO2 alone is the sole driver of temperature on this planet.  

Well Windy95 seems to think so. And he blames God for it.
Step into my office, baby
 
Klaus
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:15 am

The Antarctic has been warming through the past century; Are you or are you

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 22):
Sorry, what am I saying? We all know that CO2 alone is the sole driver of temperature on this planet.

No climatologist is saying that. CO2 as one of the major factors is just the one we have the most direct control about.
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:19 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 22):
We all know that CO2 alone is the sole driver of temperature on this planet.

And the 3% of 0.038% of the atmosphere CO2 that we have re-admitted to the atmosphere is just so much more of a factor than the sun, wator vapor and methane.  Yeah sure
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:20 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 2):

Why does that sound so dumb to you? It's a legitimate possibility.

Because this has NEVER happened before and because the sun is actually in a cooling phase right now.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
dxing
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:22 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Because this has NEVER happened before

?  scratchchin  According to whom?  scratchchin 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:24 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Because this has NEVER happened before and because the sun is actually in a cooling phase right now.

What has never happened before?.

And the planet has been cooling the last few years along with the oceans.The ice caps being at their norms. What is out of kilter here?
 
A346Dude
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:36 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Because this has NEVER happened before and because the sun is actually in a cooling phase right now.

I see, so the Antarctic ice shelves have been perfectly static since the Earth formed 4.3 billion years ago until the last decade or two. Makes sense.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:03 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's all natural. It's all a solar cycle. Global warming is a Liberal myth.

 checkmark  While global warming is happening, the retarded myth lies in the fact that its NOT human caused, pollution has little to nothing to do with it. and its not the end of the world. Not to mention there's nothing we can do about it.  banghead 

Mars and Jupiter are going through a warming stage as well. I really doubt the handful of solar powered probes/landers we've sent to those planets had anything to do with it.  cheeky 

And I'll have you all know that none of the scientists/instructors/researchers in my school's meteorology department buy that whole global warming theory. It's a cycle. Period. Heck one of my WX instructors lived for a year drilling miles into the ice in Antarctica looking for evidence in the layers of ice. But all he found was cyclical peaks and lows in temps. And some of those ice samples he extracted were hundreds of thousands of years old.

What more evidence do you want to prove its a fairytale?

Yes, global warming is happening. But is it humanities's fault? No. Do we have to do anything about it and should we all be going apeshit over it? No, aside from enjoying the warmer weather. cool 

Quoting DXing (Reply 28):
? scratchchin According to whom? scratchchin



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 29):
What has never happened before?.

I think he's being sarcastic guys...
 
baroque
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:32 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 10):
They sell water filtration systems now?

Why are you being obtuse Mt99, he obviously meant the Disney on Ice link from cryophere.com?  Big grin
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:15 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 24):
Quoting A346Dude (Reply 22):
Sorry, what am I saying? We all know that CO2 alone is the sole driver of temperature on this planet.

Well Windy95 seems to think so. And he blames God for it.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 10):
They sell water filtration systems now?

Why are you being obtuse Mt99, he obviously meant the Disney on Ice link from cryophere.com?



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 19):
A very small, tiny little one. And that answer without Yahoo my preferred search engine

Cars are they tiny bit or "other sources" are the tiny part?



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 18):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 17):
God must of released a huge amount of CO2 to cause that amount of Climate change. I do not think Detroit was around at that time.


What % of CO2 is because of cars? and what % is from other sources?

Lets see who googles faster.. 1..2..3.. go...



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
Rise of sea levels is 'the greatest lie ever told'

Hey it was in the Bible. Ask Noah. It must be true.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 12):
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 11):
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.south.jpg


So it wasn't cryosphere.com !!

Care to actually debate the fact that the Artic Caps are currently at or above their average?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 11):
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.south.jpg

According to today's update the Antarctic is running above normal for this time of year by almost 1,000,000 sq Km. The end is near for the antarctic



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 12):
And the Arctic peaked out just short of it's average by a couple of hundred thousand Kilometers so right now the combined caps are running abover average with there combined total. The end is near. Head to the hills and sell your oceanfront property.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosph...5.jpg

 
baroque
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:15 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 33):
Care to actually debate the fact that the Artic Caps are currently at or above their average?

At or above their average what? The proportion of two year + ice is at record lows meaning that the proportion of one year ice is at a record percentage of cover. Is that what you mean?
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:29 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 33):
Care to actually debate the fact that the Artic Caps are currently at or above their average?


At or above their average what? The proportion of two year + ice is at record lows meaning that the proportion of one year ice is at a record percentage of cover. Is that what you mean?

At or above the average since monitoring started.Do we need to go back over the last thirty plus years since the Satellites have been monitoring to see which ice is ten year, two year? Man made global warming has supposedly been going on for some twenty years at a supposedly rapid rate. If that is true should there be any one year, two year, three year ice???? I guess I should also not have to remind you that the ice has melted before in the past and that actual chunks and shelfs have fallen off in the past beforee the SUV. That passages that had been closed in the 60's, 70's etc had been open a century before.
 
captaink
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:29 pm

Climate change/Global Warming is real. Just because we have a very cold winter, doesn't indicate otherwise. The earths average temperature has risen steadily over the years, and yes it is not a smooth line, there are ups and downs, but the tendency is a very positive gradient.

The earth has always experienced cycles, but what may be happening now is that these cycles are and can be exaggerated. That is why it is now usually said, climate change and not so much only global warming.
There is something special about planes....
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:38 pm



Quoting Captaink (Reply 36):
Climate change/Global Warming is real. Just because we have a very cold winter, doesn't indicate otherwise. The earths average temperature has risen steadily over the years, and yes it is not a smooth line, there are ups and downs, but the tendency is a very positive gradient.

The earth has always experienced cycles, but what may be happening now is that these cycles are and can be exaggerated.

proof. link.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10002
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:10 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 30):
I see, so the Antarctic ice shelves have been perfectly static since the Earth formed 4.3 billion years ago until the last decade or two. Makes sense.

They haven't, they have been shrinking for the last 10/11,000 years or so. The planet is still adjusting as it comes out of the last Ice Age, both ice levels, sea levels and land levels. As a result the biggest threat to the coastal towns where I live isn't global warming but post glacial rebound, which sees the entire landmass sink by several millimeters a year, whilst in other parts of Europe the land is rising at an even greater rate.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Because this has NEVER happened before and because the sun is actually in a cooling phase right now.

It has occurred before, although the lack of solar activity was much more pronounced. Depending on which sources you believe, temperatures cooled by 0.5-2.0 degrees and caused what was referred to as a 'Mini Ice Age'.


Dan  Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
AverageUser
Topic Author
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:33 pm



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 38):
where I live isn't global warming but post glacial rebound, which sees the entire landmass sink by several millimeters a yea

I come from an area where glacial rebound is very pronounced, but I was not able to find anything much in numerical values regarding Spain. What I found derived by precision GPS were for Madrid, and they were positive, for what they thought was "local reasons"
 
don81603
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:28 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It's all natural. It's all a solar cycle. Global warming is a Liberal myth.

 checkmark 
Long before man appeared on the planet, the polar regions were tropical areas (the discovery of dinosaur fossils as evidence) and the equatorial areas were nearly icebound during the last iceage some 20,000 years ago. It's all the natural cycle of the planet. And, seeing as Mars is going through "Global Warming", are we also causing that as well?

Quote:

Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural---and not a human-induced---cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Because this has NEVER happened before and because the sun is actually in a cooling phase right now.

See my above post.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 36):
Climate change/Global Warming is real. Just because we have a very cold winter, doesn't indicate otherwise. The earths average temperature has risen steadily over the years, and yes it is not a smooth line, there are ups and downs, but the tendency is a very positive gradient.

Again, the natural cycle of the planet.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:32 pm



Quoting Captaink (Reply 36):
Climate change/Global Warming is real. Just because we have a very cold winter, doesn't indicate otherwise.

Any good scientist knows that anomalies can occur in a data sample, but those anomalies cannot simply be ignored because they are inconvenient. In my line of work, there must be some explanation given as to why we can omit a data point.

What the man-made global warming (MMGW) supporters have not wrapped their heads around is that the Earth has been cooling for ten years now in direct contradiction to the theory that Earth should continue warming as atmospheric CO2 concentrations rise. When the MMGW supporters warn that environmental models predict a crisis in the coming century and then proceed to incorrectly predict a full decade, something is very wrong with those models.

Now we're no longer talking about a single anomalous winter, we're talking about a trend.
 
Klaus
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:43 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
What the man-made global warming (MMGW) supporters have not wrapped their heads around is that the Earth has been cooling for ten years now in direct contradiction to the theory that Earth should continue warming as atmospheric CO2 concentrations rise.

The climate has always exhibited oscillations arount its larger trends. Thus far there is no indication that the recent trend is reversing, unfortunately.

Wishful thinking picking and choosing data á la carte versus large-scale scientific research based on the entire data mass — now which one will be the more solid basis for wide-ranging decisions...?
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:56 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 39):
I come from an area where glacial rebound is very pronounced, but I was not able to find anything much in numerical values regarding Spain. What I found derived by precision GPS were for Madrid, and they were positive, for what they thought was "local reasons"

My apologies if I wasted any of your time looking, the flag is not representative of my location I'm afraid (long story, but basically it got stuck and would not change back to the Union Jack, so now I've left it). I live in the South West of England which was forced up during the last Ice Age by an ice sheet which started off the north coast of the Southg West peninisular. There are better and more detailed maps out there, but this one illustrates the situation pretty well:



One of the first casulties of this affect will be the Isles of Scilly, located 20 miles off the tip of Cornwall. Event just a few hundred years ago it's known that the land area was much greater, a thousand years ago there were fields and villages where there is now sea. It's also almost always wrongly attributed to global warming that they may disappear, yes it's a minor factor, but the rebound is far more serious.

What is the rate of uplift in your part of Finland, I know that in the Aland Islands the rate was thought to be between 3mm and 8mm per year, which is pretty impressive!


Dan  Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
windy95
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RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:04 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
The climate has always exhibited oscillations arount its larger trends. Thus far there is no indication that the recent trend is reversing, unfortunately.

You mean a ten year period where temps have not followed CO2 rise is not a trend Yeah sure

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Wishful thinking picking and choosing data á la carte versus large-scale scientific research based on the entire data mass --- now which one will be the more solid basis for wide-ranging decisions

Exactly what we say but in the opposite direction. Cherry picking temp data, ignoring the Medieval warming period (ala mann's hockey stick graph), Hansen at GISS constantly getting his temps changed due to á la carte picking of data and his abuse of UHI effects. It goes both ways. And we are yet to see you present this data mass you keep talking about that shows that Man released CO2 has caused out of control or abnormal temp trends. All we hear is the same old tired rhetoric and the same old beat up IPCC report which had been edited by politicians and lifetime bureaucratic hacks and with very few actual Climatologist on it.
 
Klaus
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:06 pm

Well, that you are absolutely certain with no remaining doubt at all pretty much says it all. How could reality dare to interfere with absolute belief?  Yeah sure
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:55 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 45):
Well, that you are absolutely certain with no remaining doubt at all pretty much says it all. How could reality dare to interfere with absolute belief?

Frankly, windy95 could say the same of you. You have approached every topic I have read about this subject with the same absolute confidence.

As I and others have said, the premise of man-made global warming has shown to incorrectly predict the actual direction of climate change for a full decade. Saying this is an "oscillation about a greater trend" does not explain why it is happening. The reason it has not been explained and likely cannot be explained with any confidence is because the "entire data mass" isn't nearly as comprehensive as you would have us believe.
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:20 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 45):
How could reality dare to interfere with absolute belief?

Once again what reality? What spiral-ling temps? What empirical evidence? Where is the out of control storms? Where are the rising Oceans? You have yet to show anything in any thread on this subject.

You continue to stick to the MMGW Bible of denial if it does not fit the master plan. How do you refute evidence that does not fit your empirical data. By attacking the poster, the website, the Scientist who did the study or my favorite one by saying he/she is an Big Oil shill. Never actuallly taking on the studies/articles themselves to the point of denying they even exist. If that fails complain about cutting and pasting. Oh and then if that fails just try to make the denier feel like he is just a dumb idiot who does not understand the "science" and the "empirical" evidence.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 46):
As I and others have said, the premise of man-made global warming has shown to incorrectly predict the actual direction of climate change for a full decade

And the models have been proved to be a joke. That is why they have had to change the name of their scam to Climate Change. A coverall title to fit all possible scenarios.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:44 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 46):
Frankly, windy95 could say the same of you. You have approached every topic I have read about this subject with the same absolute confidence.

If you actually look at my posts, you will find that that is actually not the case.

I have consistently explained that scientific research does not and cannot provide "absolute truth"!

Scientific research relies on observation (as exhaustively as possible) and consistent analysis.

The major disconnect that's going on in this kind of thread is that some people apparently believe that the state of scientific research can be negated by dumping a massive number of context-free snippets which superficially seem to fit one's agenda into every thread on the subject that comes along.

As it turns out, this can in fact stifle any coherent discussion since people like me and others don't have the time to carefully debunk every cut-and-pasted piece of ready-made disinformation taken from the respective denial web sites. Yay. Great job with that.

Will the state of scientific research suddenly change for the sheer amount of pasted (and almost always context-less) snippets? No, sorry.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 46):
As I and others have said, the premise of man-made global warming has shown to incorrectly predict the actual direction of climate change for a full decade. Saying this is an "oscillation about a greater trend" does not explain why it is happening. The reason it has not been explained and likely cannot be explained with any confidence is because the "entire data mass" isn't nearly as comprehensive as you would have us believe.

Your conclusion that "it can't be explained" comes exactly from where?

The probability of observed fluctuations under the assumption of a specific model can be quantified. If that probability falls below a plausible threshold, a modification, expansion or the wholesale replacement of the model in question may be required.

So which quantitative analysis do you base your scientific conclusion on, exactly?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Wilkins Ice Shelf (Antarctica) Collapsing!

Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:59 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 47):
By attacking the poster, the website, the Scientist who did the study or my favorite one by saying he/she is an Big Oil shill.

This is not theoretical. Exxon, for instance, has officially admitted systematic funding of climate change denial propaganda and later denounced these attempts.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 47):
Never actuallly taking on the studies/articles themselves to the point of denying they even exist.

I and others have many times debunked these kinds of articles. You merely flood this kind of thread with a volume of snippets which would make this a full-time job.

And I've already got one. A paid one, actually.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 47):
If that fails complain about cutting and pasting.

Since you have been found to do exactly that. In rather high volume.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 47):
Oh and then if that fails just try to make the denier feel like he is just a dumb idiot who does not understand the "science" and the "empirical" evidence.

By merely copying ready-made articles without being able to discuss the background and the context of these articles and by displaying severe mistakes about the scientific context you keep undermining your own points you hope to make.

That I have to explain the most fundamental principles again and again and again upon which every scientific work has to be based and that you keep being surprised even by those is not an indictment of you as a person, but if you want to counter the consensus view of an entire field of worldwide scientific research, you better know what you're talking about!

Daily-life experiences and views can be valuable, but in scientific research you need to have at least some basic understanding of how the respective field of research works, which mathematical tools are used to reach certain conclusions and what these conclusions actually claim and — often more importantly — what they don't claim and what, exactly, these conclusions apply to and what they don't apply to.

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