flexo
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What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sat May 09, 2009 8:13 pm

Ok, I just finished watching a report about modern day piracy and found myself wondering why isn't there more done to stop them?

It seems that the navies around the world don't really have all that much to do during this relatively peaceful time.
So, why aren't there more ships dispatched to protect merchant shipping?
What else are the navies doing when there isn't an enemy to fight on the seas?
 
Flighty
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sat May 09, 2009 9:44 pm

That is a good question, but one point is, there would be no pirates to "fight" if the navies simply shadowed merchant ships all the time. It is not the navy's duty to provide permanent guards to the shipping of rich companies. Piracy is extremely rare, is another thing.

Some Navy people could tell us what they do routinely. My impression is they are focused on protecting their homelands against strategic enemies, and running drills to make sure a global war on the seas _never does_ happen again. To some extent, we enjoy peace today because our navies are as strong and vigilant as they are...
 
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nighthawk
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sat May 09, 2009 11:12 pm



Quoting Flexo (Thread starter):
What else are the navies doing when there isn't an enemy to fight on the seas?

Taking turns in the barrel. They dont call them Sea Men for nuffin!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 12:31 am



Quoting Flexo (Thread starter):
the navies around the world don't really have all that much to do during this relatively peaceful time

Tje American and Russian navies have been downsized/reeingineered to such a small size since the "end of the Cold War" that they are no longer the global presences that they once were. Thus, widespread piracy (in areas like the horn of africa, Indonesia, et al) is rampart since the "superpowers" are no longer a threat to pirate's operations.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
desertjets
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 12:51 am

There is in fact a sizeable multi-national task force operating off of the Horn of Africa fighting piracy. So there is a concerted effort to reduce piracy in that region. But there is a lot of ocean to cover and only so many ships, hence why it is still a problem.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 3):
Thus, widespread piracy (in areas like the horn of africa, Indonesia, et al) is rampart since the "superpowers" are no longer a threat to pirate's operations.

I think this is a flawed hypothesis. There are many factors since the end of the Cold War that have made this new wave of piracy more prevalent. Certainly the scale of international trade and shipping that did not exist 20-30 years ago is a major factor. Simply a lot more targets out there.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Lumberton
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 1:08 am

Meanwhile, the BBC is reporting that a British owned vessel has been released by these criminals after a ransom was paid.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8042228.stm
All the navies in the world won't make a difference as long as the criminals believe/know that they stand a good chance of making this criminal enterprise pay. The militaries involved have to have a legal frame/international treaty in order to make this thing really work. Otherwise, individual countries will work in isolation. Some will use force, others will be reluctant.

This is tailor made for a UN solution, but the UN can't seem to agree on the path to take.

[Edited 2009-05-09 18:10:30]

[Edited 2009-05-09 18:10:52]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 1:42 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
All the navies in the world won't make a difference as long as the criminals believe/know that they stand a good chance of making this criminal enterprise pay.

Correct. And even worse when many navies simply "catch and release" any pirate they catch. In the old days, if you were a crewman on a pirate ship, you were a pirate, end of story.

The way to kill off the Somali piracy industry would be to send a gunboat - I wonder if there are any old Brooklyn-type cruisers are still around - into the port where the pirates are based, with the mission of putting a 6-inch hole in every hull in the harbor, with the announcement that the exercise will be repeated every month until the attacks stop. Let the local elders, fishermen and others pound the pirates into submission.

And I would also consider breaking out of government warehouses some 1940s vintage 20 or 40mm gun mounts and mounting them to US-flagged ships which transit the area, with a couple of people to man that gun.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 1:50 am



Quoting Flexo (Thread starter):
It seems that the navies around the world don't really have all that much to do during this relatively peaceful time.
So, why aren't there more ships dispatched to protect merchant shipping?
What else are the navies doing when there isn't an enemy to fight on the seas?

I just read a story that the Australian military was actually increasing their size including adding new ships/subs to their fleets. Whether the the ships will be used/designed for piracy I do not know.
Blue
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Mortyman
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 3:25 am

The problem is really on land, not at sea. As long as the situation on land in Somalia is'nt solved, the piracy will continue. One of the problems is that there is'nt really a propper government in Somalia. So no one to take care of the law and order in the country. In adittion, most countries navies just release the pirates after they have been catched. I think it's only the USA and France that is putting them on trial.



Norway is currently preparing one of it's new figates for mission in this area. It will apparently include snipers / specialforces.
 
rfields5421
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 3:34 am

Somalia is not the place where most piracy is occuring in the world. It barely makes it into second place.

There are no where near enough Navy ships in the entire world to shadow all the commercial ships near the Horn of Africa.

The NATO task force has done a good job in helping cut down, but as mentioned above the big problem is on land - in those nations whose banking laws protect the pirates receiving millions of dollars in ransome each year.

As far as shooting them out of the water - how do you know?

There are literally hundreds of ships out there which look just like the pirate mother ships, but are completely legitimate. If the Navy forces start shooting, they know eventually they are going to take out a bunch of innocent civlians.

Are the people of the US going to understand if France accidentally destroys an old US flagged ship and kills 20 crew?
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 4:30 am



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 9):
Are the people of the US going to understand if France accidentally destroys an old US flagged ship and kills 20 crew?

Well considering nobody has been shooting at these motherships we don't have too much to worry about. And also I doubt there is too many motherships that can be mistaken for large cargo ships.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
rfields5421
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RE: What Are The World's Navies Doing?

Sun May 10, 2009 5:04 am



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
too many motherships that can be mistaken for large cargo ships.

There are dozens, probably hundreds, of really poorly maintained cargo ships out in the choke points of the world oceans each year.

I've seen ships smaller than 20 meters on long open water cargo runs. Most of those ships I would not trust with my life tied up to the dock, much less in the middle of an ocean.

Many of those barely have any lights and a lot do not have radios.

Which are poor fishermen? Which are poor cargo carriers (smugglers)? Which are pirates?

That is one reason the Straits of Malacca are the world's most piracy prone waters. Shooting up the derelict pirate looking ships will kill innocents eventually.

Malaysia, India and Singapore have done a great job of cleaning up that area, with a lot of help from Indonesia - but it is still a big ocean and telilng friend from foe is hard.

Treating friends and innocents like criminals is a quick way to make enemies.

That is why most of the western navies refused to become involved in cleaning up the Straits of Malacca.

Though the ships which would try to convoy with a US Navy ship was sometimes embarressing. Back in the 80's we sometimes thought we needed to call back some WWII convoy captains.

Also there were lots of diplomatic complaints from both regional governments and European/ American governments. Navy ships have much higher power and speed than civilian cargo ships who would complain through their owners about being left behind.

They always want the Navy to sail at the speed of the slowest ship/ boat.

I've heard from friends of complaints over the radio because aircraft carriers would not slow down to the speed of a sailing yacht tacking up the Strait.

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