lincoln
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Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Mon May 11, 2009 3:25 am

Strange quasi-legal, might make for some good debate, question of the weekend:

I was reading through my city's municipal code and came across this tidit (Cleveland Heights Ord. 701.01):

Quote:
701.01 TRANSACTION OF BUSINESS ON SUNDAY; EXCEPTIONS.
(a) No person, firm or corporation shall engage in common labor or permit a building or place to be open for transaction of business, or require a person in his employ or under his control to engage in common labor or to open a building or place for the transaction of business on Sunday. In prosecutions under this section, complaints shall be made within ten (10) days after a violation.

(b) This section does not apply to work of necessity or charity, and does not extend to persons who conscientiously observe the seventh day of the week as the sabbath, and abstain thereon from doing things prohibited on Sunday.

(c) This section shall not apply to:
(1) Traveling or the providing of services and commodities incidental thereto;
(2) Recreation, sports, amusements, entertainment or exhibitions or the providing of services and commodities incidental thereto;
(3) Fairs held under the authority of the State or a political subdivision, or independent fairs, or the providing of services and commodities incidental thereto;
(4) The operation of publicly owned places of entertainment, recreation or education, by a public officer, concessionaire, exhibitor or employees of all or any of them, or any other person, or the providing of services and commodities incidental thereto.

(ORC 3773.24)

I can't possibly be reading this right... by my reading just about every business in the city with the exception of gas stations and possibly restaurants is violating the law by being open both Saturday and Sunday (you can't tell me that Home Depot and Wal-Mart, for example, falls into any of the exceptions of paragraph (c), and I'm pretty sure my HOA's contracted landscaper works on both Saturdays and Sundays)

And even if I were reading it right, wouldn't the enforcement of this section be a borderline violation of the affected person or entity's first ammendment rights ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." -- by requiring "persons [to] conscientiously observe [Sunday or] the seventh day of the week as the sabbath, and abstain thereon from doing things prohibited...". Further, but more strained "...or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..."; while commercial speech may be regulatated more than non-commercial speech, couldn't it be argued that this is an impermissible regulation?)
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Mon May 11, 2009 3:58 am

I just found out the hard way. I moved from YVR to a comunity just outside YWG called Steinbach. In Steinbach 75% of the population are "Menonites". These are relegous folk. On Sunday (today actually) the only stores allowed to be open are resturants and gas stations (even Safeway is closed!!!!). Walmart has purchased property but are not developing it because they want 7 days per week. I find this nuts that in the year 2009 we have religeous people baring non-religeous (or even the less die-hard) people from shopping. If you do not want to go shopping for your own sake then by all means do not shop on Sundays. But to actually effect MY life because of YOUR religeous views. Lets just say I am not happy about it.

On top of it all, the city just recently allowed the sales of liquor 2 or 3 years back!! I was hanging out with a co-worker who mad a comment about one of our waitresses to me and I laughed then he was all excited because I too found it funny. Apperently most people from this town find it odd.

It truly is amazing that for a town in Canada in year 2009 that things can still be so "old" school.

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ltbewr
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Mon May 11, 2009 4:03 am

A number of places have various 'blue laws' as to business operations including retail sales or of certain products. Here in New Jersey, Bergen County, which with several malls only 15 miles form NY City are closed on Sunday but for resturants. Generally only food (ie: supermakets), small hardware stores, convenience stores, gas stations and vehicle repair businesses can be open. Some towns further restrict sales of retail alcohol sales entirely or only allow the sale of wine and beer.
Many of these 'blue laws' are holdovers of control by religious persons, to follow the 'day of rest' concept in the Bible as they see it. Meanwhile, many millions a Sunday is lost in sales and income taxes to New Jersey by all the Sunday closures. Of course, is one can drive or take a bus over the border into adjcent counties or NY State and not face such rules and in some cases they are placing stores just across the river from Bergen County (Home Depot, Lowes, et al) to get their sunday business.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Mon May 11, 2009 6:33 am

Laws like this always make me see red. They're a blatant violation of the Establishment clause.
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lincoln
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 12:01 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
On Sunday (today actually) the only stores allowed to be open are resturants and gas stations (even Safeway is closed!!!!).

Ouch... I guess part of my confusion in the local place is that all of the business that want to be open (pretty much everything except some of the small mom-and-pop stores) are open -- be it Home Depot, Wal-Mart, the driving school, car dealers, Borders, ....

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
find this nuts that in the year 2009 we have religious people baring non-religeous (or even the less die-hard) people from shopping

Eh, yeah... I could start a big rant about it, but the same thing goes for what women do with their bodies/abortion, gay marriage, etc. etc. -- I'm fine with you having and practicing whatever beliefs you hold to be important; by all means if you're a store owner and you don't feel that it's proper for you to conduct business on Sunday, don't open your store on Sunday, but don't tell me I can't open my business on Sunday. (Same thing, but off topic is abortion-- I'm not a fan of it, I would have ethical problems encouraging someone to go down that path, but I don't think it should be outlawed, or why should I tell you who you can or can't marry?)

In short, I have my own moral and ethical beliefs, I don't need yours, thank you.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 12:07 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
I find this nuts that in the year 2009 we have religeous people baring non-religeous (or even the less die-hard) people from shopping.

I don't understand why this is such a big deal to Mormons. Dating a mormon, for me, was nearly impossible because of this. Sundays were off-limits to everything. My goodness!!!!
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JayDub
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 12:34 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
Sundays were off-limits to everything.

Sundays in SGU are awesome. No city traffic, no lines, no stress.  Smile
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RedChili
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 3:18 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
I find this nuts that in the year 2009 we have religeous people baring non-religeous (or even the less die-hard) people from shopping. If you do not want to go shopping for your own sake then by all means do not shop on Sundays. But to actually effect MY life because of YOUR religeous views. Lets just say I am not happy about it.

We actually have the same type of laws in Norway. Only gas stations, restaurants, etc stay open on Sundays, except during the month before Christmas, when all stores are usually given an exception.

The problem with your statement above is that is does affect people who may not want to work or do shopping on Sunday. When you do allow stores to be open on a Sunday, the store owners will often employ people who are willing to work seven days a week, and/or fire workers who don't want to work on a Sunday.

Secondly, if a non-religious store owner wants to keep his business open on Sunday, that will, in effect, force religious store owners to stay open on that day, even if they really don't want to be open.

Thirdly, a small family owned store will be at a big disadvantage to huge supermarkets. A supermarket can afford to employ enough people to work seven days a week, but a store owned and run by a couple needs to rest at least one day a week, and this puts them at a disadvantage compared to the supermarket.

You could say that allowing stores to be open on Sunday will, in the long run, mean the end of small family owned businesses while giving huge chains and cartels monopoly on the business, which is a very un-American thing to do.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 4):
(Same thing, but off topic is abortion-- I'm not a fan of it, I would have ethical problems encouraging someone to go down that path, but I don't think it should be outlawed, or why should I tell you who you can or can't marry?)

In short, I have my own moral and ethical beliefs, I don't need yours, thank you.

So, if I'm a Satanist and I believe I have to sacrifice a virgin girl every full moon, I should be allowed to do so because I don't need your moral or ethical beliefs?
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Cory6188
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 3:59 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
Here in New Jersey, Bergen County, which with several malls only 15 miles form NY City are closed on Sunday but for resturants. Generally only food (ie: supermakets), small hardware stores, convenience stores, gas stations and vehicle repair businesses can be open. Some towns further restrict sales of retail alcohol sales entirely or only allow the sale of wine and beer.
Many of these 'blue laws' are holdovers of control by religious persons, to follow the 'day of rest' concept in the Bible as they see it. Meanwhile, many millions a Sunday is lost in sales and income taxes to New Jersey by all the Sunday closures. Of course, is one can drive or take a bus over the border into adjcent counties or NY State and not face such rules and in some cases they are placing stores just across the river from Bergen County (Home Depot, Lowes, et al) to get their sunday business.

Having grown up in Bergen County, I now actually find it weird when I'm other places and stores are open on Sunday. It just became so ingrained in my head that stores are closed on Sunday that it seems strange to drive by places elsewhere on a Sunday and see cars in the parking lot...
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 4:21 am



Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):

The problem with your statement above is that is does affect people who may not want to work or do shopping on Sunday. When you do allow stores to be open on a Sunday, the store owners will often employ people who are willing to work seven days a week, and/or fire workers who don't want to work on a Sunday.

Secondly, if a non-religious store owner wants to keep his business open on Sunday, that will, in effect, force religious store owners to stay open on that day, even if they really don't want to be open.

Thirdly, a small family owned store will be at a big disadvantage to huge supermarkets. A supermarket can afford to employ enough people to work seven days a week, but a store owned and run by a couple needs to rest at least one day a week, and this puts them at a disadvantage compared to the supermarket.

You could say that allowing stores to be open on Sunday will, in the long run, mean the end of small family owned businesses while giving huge chains and cartels monopoly on the business, which is a very un-American thing to do.

If you do not want to work on Sundays that is your buisness. YOU are making that choice and you should decided whether not choosing to work on Sunday makes you less employable and if it does, is it worth it to you. Society should not bend because of someones views. If someone wants to be more restrictive with his/her schedule then they need to own up to that. I almost got a flying job with a bit better pay then my current flying job, but I told them I needed two days off and they told me that my ground school would be over those days. GUESS WHAT?? I did not ask them to change that for me, I simply told them that it would not work out as I need those two days off.

So I as a non-religeous person should give up a day of revenue because another store owner is religeous and wants to "have his rest"? If he thinks that it is important for him to talk the day off, take the day off. If he thinks that even though he wants to take the day off, the lost revenue to my company would not be worth it to him he should stay open.

I would disagree - I think that having bigger companies beat out smaller companies is a VERY American thing. America is all about a Capitalist society, if the big company is the one that makes it, so be it.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
So, if I'm a Satanist and I believe I have to sacrifice a virgin girl every full moon, I should be allowed to do so because I don't need your moral or ethical beliefs?

Well I think the just of what we are saying is YOUR beliefs should not affect MY beliefs. So if I were that "virgin" I would hazard a guess to say that my life would be affected.
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texan
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 4:30 am

In regards to the Cleveland Heights Ordinance, they most likely know it is vulnerable to many different legal challenges and so they just do not enforce it. Religion, interstate commerce, interference with contractual rights, etc. I especially like the possibility of an illegal regulation of interstate commerce argument, but that could just be because I am weird.

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DocLightning
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 7:47 am



Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):

So, if I'm a Satanist and I believe I have to sacrifice a virgin girl every full moon, I should be allowed to do so because I don't need your moral or ethical beliefs?

No, because your right to swing your fist ends at someone else's nose. As long as you aren't hurting anyone else, then do what you will.

Human sacrifice crosses that line just a bit, dontcha think?
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ajd1992
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 11:48 am

In the UK, shops that are 24 hours have to close midnight Saturday night, and open again at 10am till 4 (Usually, there are variations of that).

This is down to some ancient religious law too. It's a bit annoying to be honest.
 
davehammer
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 12:12 pm



Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 14):
In the UK, shops that are 24 hours have to close midnight Saturday night, and open again at 10am till 4 (Usually, there are variations of that).

This is down to some ancient religious law too. It's a bit annoying to be honest.

Shops over a certain size I believe is the restriction meaning that most Off Licenses and so on can get round it. Also petrol stations hence the arrival of supermarkets taking over petrol station shops.
 
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 12:25 pm

In Northern Ireland on Sundays stores are not allowed to open until midday. I hate this as it cuts right through the day when you could have been shopping at 9am and back by that time .
 
Starbuk7
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 1:37 pm

When I was growing up in Pennsylvania in the 60's and 70's the only establishments open on Sundays were restaurants and movie theaters. You could not go shopping or the likes since everything else was closed.

I think that was a much better time since it made Sundays family days where you did family activities. That doesn't happen much today, although I still make Sundays family days for my family, we don't go shopping or the like on Sundays.
 
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 2:12 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
Of course, is one can drive or take a bus over the border into adjcent counties or NY State and not face such rules and in some cases they are placing stores just across the river from Bergen County (Home Depot, Lowes, et al) to get their sunday business.

I always wondered why Bergen County did that. Especially given the large Jewish community that can't shop on Saturday or Sunday.
 
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 5:39 pm



Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 14):
In the UK, shops that are 24 hours have to close midnight Saturday night, and open again at 10am till 4 (Usually, there are variations of that).

This is down to some ancient religious law too. It's a bit annoying to be honest.

 checkmark  I think that the Sunday Trading Law stipulates that these shops can only open for a maximum of 6 hours.

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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 6:01 pm

In both Pella, Iowa and Holland, Mich. (heavily Christian Reformed, Dutch communities), the only businesses allowed to operate on Sunday are restaurants, and drive-thru windows are off limits on those days.
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David L
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 6:31 pm



Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 14):
In the UK, shops that are 24 hours have to close midnight Saturday night, and open again at 10am till 4 (Usually, there are variations of that).

Are you sure that isn't English law? I'm pretty sure Scottish law has been more lax for quite a while.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, because your right to swing your fist ends at someone else's nose. As long as you aren't hurting anyone else, then do what you will.

Human sacrifice crosses that line just a bit, dontcha think?

But... but.. some people are just asking for it.  duck 
 
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Tue May 12, 2009 9:56 pm



Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
The problem with your statement above is that is does affect people who may not want to work or do shopping on Sunday.

Go shopping? If stores are open on Sunday you may be forced (affect) to go shopping? What? If you don't want to work or for heavens sake, go shopping, you don't have to. There is no law or punishment for not shopping or working on Sunday. I don't "work" on Sunday, at least I don't do my career job on weekends. It's my choice.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
When you do allow stores to be open on a Sunday, the store owners will often employ people who are willing to work seven days a week, and/or fire workers who don't want to work on a Sunday.

Isn't that what is supposed to happen? The store owner should hire people who want to work on Sunday's and not employ people who won't work on Sunday's.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
Secondly, if a non-religious store owner wants to keep his business open on Sunday, that will, in effect, force religious store owners to stay open on that day, even if they really don't want to be open.

I see many religious owners that do not operate on Sundays and I know several that do not operate on Saturday's. My hairdresser does not work on Mondays, why? Because she chooses to even though there are lots of other hairstylists that are open. Hasn't hurt her at all.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
Thirdly, a small family owned store will be at a big disadvantage to huge supermarkets. A supermarket can afford to employ enough people to work seven days a week, but a store owned and run by a couple needs to rest at least one day a week, and this puts them at a disadvantage compared to the supermarket.

Actually the small grocery store owner is likely more vulnerable when forced to close as some items are perishable and therefore are better with continuous sales. Again it is a persons choice whether they are open on weekends or open late or early, it is up to the owner when they sell their goods.


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ADXMatt
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Sat May 16, 2009 7:03 pm



Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
Secondly, if a non-religious store owner wants to keep his business open on Sunday, that will, in effect, force religious store owners to stay open on that day, even if they really don't want to be open.

Here in the southern USA a large fast food chain (Chix filet) is closed on Sundays for religious reasons and McDonalds, Burger King etc. are open. It hasn't hurt them by being closed. It's their choice.

If I was off on Sunday I like the option of being able to do all my errands. I like the choice.
 
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Sat May 16, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 12):
In the UK, shops that are 24 hours have to close midnight Saturday night, and open again at 10am till 4 (Usually, there are variations of that).

This is down to some ancient religious law too. It's a bit annoying to be honest.

Shops legally opening on a Sunday is a fairly recent change in the law (can't remember exactly what year it came in, but it wasn't that many years ago).

Not wanting to show my age (I'm not that old!), but I can remember when shops used to close on Saturday and Wednesday afternoons, although I don't think that was due to any legal restrictions. And then of course there was Sunday, when next to nothing was open.

I believe the law was only reviewed to allow Sunday opening because a lot of the larger stores decided to start opening anyway (albeit illegally!). In the end it was decided to allow them to open for a maximum of six hours on a Sunday, with most stores choosing to open either from 10am to 4pm, or 11am to 5pm.

But let's just be thankful that we can now at least go supermarket shopping 24 hours a day, even if it's not 24/7...that would have been unheard of not so long ago!!
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Sat May 16, 2009 7:48 pm



Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
Secondly, if a non-religious store owner wants to keep his business open on Sunday, that will, in effect, force religious store owners to stay open on that day, even if they really don't want to be open.

Ever tried to buy something from B&H Photo on a Saturday?  Wink

Growing up in NY in the 60s & 70s, we still had the last vestiges of the old blue laws in place. Most places were closed on Sunday, but eventually that changed. Going to Mississippi for USAF Pilot Training in 1983, it was something of a shock to find stores closed on Sunday, and those that were open had restrictions on what they could sell. I remember an auto parts place (NAPA or such) that had certain aisles blocked off on Sundays - you could buy parts, but not tools (or the other way around), since buying tools meant you intended to do work on a Sunday. While I was there, there was a movement to overturn the laws - one furniture store opened, and the county sheriff came down, told everyone (customers and all) that they would be arrested, and since it was Sunday, they would have to spend the night in jail waiting on the judge to come in Monday morning. For a few weeks, they opened for "browsing only" on Sunday, but eventually concentrated on other means to change the laws.
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lincoln
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RE: Business Open On Sunday--Against The Law?!?

Sat May 16, 2009 8:41 pm



Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
So, if I'm a Satanist and I believe I have to sacrifice a virgin girl every full moon, I should be allowed to do so because I don't need your moral or ethical beliefs?

As long as the virgin girl has attained the age of majority and is a willing participant in the sacrifice, absolutely. I wouldn't do it, with my personal beleifs I don't think I would encourage it, but what two willing adults do to or with each other... have fun!

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
The problem with your statement above is that is does affect people who may not want to work or do shopping on Sunday.

If your beleifs are that strong... don't work or shop on Sunday. And if we're going to let other people's religious views drive our behavior via legislation, why isn't it illegal for stores to open from sundown on Friday through sundown on Saturday to respect those of a Jewish faith?

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
Secondly, if a non-religious store owner wants to keep his business open on Sunday, that will, in effect, force religious store owners to stay open on that day, even if they really don't want to be open.

Pardon? Where does this logic come from? My dry cleaner isn't open on Sundays and they've been in business for like 60 years now. A major fast food chain (Chic-Fil-A) prohibits its franchises from being open on Sunday... and they do brisk business. My favorite burger chain (In-N-Out) isn't open on any of the major holidays, including Easter... and I doubt that's affected their bottom line. By the same token, a local supermarket doesn't sell prophylactics in accordance with the owner's religious beliefs... and they're going strong. A couple local bookstores aren't open on Sundays - My window place isn't open on Saturdays due to their owner's beliefs. All of them are doing just fine

If you're a business owner (or employee) and you hold your beleifs that sincerely, there's no problem closing to respect them. Remember that there are costs that are always there (opened or closed) and only when opened...

Quoting RedChili (Reply 7):
You could say that allowing stores to be open on Sunday will, in the long run, mean the end of small family owned businesses while giving huge chains and cartels monopoly on the business

Wow, there's a fallacy if I've ever heard one. "Being open on Sundays will ruin the small business" -- I can't even begin to imagine where logic to justify that slippery slope comes from. For one it assumes that the majority of small business owners don't want to be open on Sundays but are somehow being pressured to do so. Another, it assumes that if they were open Sundays they wouldn't take another day of the week to relax (say Monday) that was more convenient for them. And it assumes that the majority of small business owners hold religious beliefs that require them to abstain from work on Sunday, and wouldn;'t otherwise abstain from working if it weren't for the law protecting them from themselves.

Lincoln
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