fraspotter
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Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 7:53 am

This is strange... A student at a private Christian High School in Ohio expects to be suspended for attending the Prom of a public high school with his girlfriend. It turns out that the Christian high school "forbids dancing, rock music and hand holding"...

Personally, I don't remember hearing about the Taliban running a school in Ohio...  Yeah sure

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090510/ap_on_re_us/us_school_dance_flap
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 8:06 am

Cool. It's just like "Footloose". How romantic!!

I hope he made it worth is while and copped a feel as well.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 8:17 am

by the sounds of things it could be the best thing to ever happen to him - maybe his parents will come to their senses and send him to a normal school now that this one has shown how utterly crackpot it is
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 8:48 am

They must have a Saudi clergy running the school.  duck 
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MCOflyer
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 9:48 am

I hope the step dad sues as he has a good chance of winning. To be frank, this is the first time i've heard of beliefs like this at a christian school.

KH
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oly720man
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 10:03 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
To be frank, this is the first time i've heard of beliefs like this at a christian school.

Beliefs, rules or opinion?

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...07DQKHA.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101

The handbook for the 84-student Christian school says rock music "is part of the counterculture which seeks to implant seeds of rebellion in young people's hearts and minds."

I expect this was being written in the mainstream in the 1950's when the youth of America was being presented with the "dangerous" music stars and music of the day.

Anyway, what is better from a religious and personal standpoint? To be faced by such demons and have the moral standing to do the right thing or to be banned from ever contacting such dangers and never really know what all the fuss is about? Seems to be one of the problems of the world... to be bullshitted into a set of beliefs or a certain mentality without really knowing or experiencing the reality. Look at N Korea and its captive and brainwashed population.
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ltbewr
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 10:30 am

The problem is that the school where the prom took place required persons attending who are non-students of it to get a permission slip signed by the school they attend. I am not sure why the prom hosting school has this requirement, to me set rules and any such permission to come from a parent if the non-school attendee is less than 18 years old, and strict age limits of not more than 19 years old should be sufficient.
As to the rules the private-religious school the young man attended, there is no doubt they are foolish. I would rather see rules like requiring time spent helping the community, not trying to control the private lives of students. I wonder if they teach Creationism and have other extreme religious biases in thier educational agenda that will hurt the future chances and ability to intergrate into real life when they leave.
 
IH8BY
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 10:41 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
I hope the step dad sues as he has a good chance of winning.

Does he, though? If the school explicitly states (is this the case?) that it does not tolerate such behaviour, then presumably this would be, within those parameters, an appropriate sanction to take for a contravention of the school rules... in addition, he was warned about the possible consequences. I don't know how much freedom private schools in the US have to decide on curriculum and rules; I don't think this could happen in the UK, but somehow I see US private schools as being less regulated.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:48 am



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 7):

I agree with you on the fact that private schools should be less regulated. However, I do not understand what does it concern the school what the scholar does on his personal time. If it were a other christian school function, then yes I would understand. However, this is his personal time and my guess is that the father is suing for invasion of privacy.

KH
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IHadAPheo
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 5:38 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
I hope the step dad sues as he has a good chance of winning. To be frank, this is the first time i've heard of beliefs like this at a christian school.

If the school had a code of conduct that spelled out the consequences of violating said code and the code of conduct was known to the parents at the time of enrollment there may not be many legal options open to the parents.

Strict conduct codes of this type are not at all uncommon in fringe religious sects. I have heard of so many examples of situations of this kind that I am no longer at all surprised to hear of additional events. Reports of draconian rules of a similar ilk are in the news quite often.

IHAP
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AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 6:13 pm



Quoting Ihadapheo (Reply 9):
If the school had a code of conduct that spelled out the consequences of violating said code and the code of conduct was known to the parents at the time of enrollment there may not be many legal options open to the parents

It does not matter. This kid was attending prom OUTSIDE of school hours at a different school. This is this kid's personal time. He can do whatever he choses to do outside these hours. I'm pretty sure that this kid's parents would agree with me, and so would the courts.

The school that this kid attends to cannot dictate what the kid can and cannot do outside the normal school hours off of school grounds, period. It is ridiculous and illegal.
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DocLightning
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 6:27 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):

It does not matter. This kid was attending prom OUTSIDE of school hours at a different school. This is this kid's personal time. He can do whatever he choses to do outside these hours.

No he can't. Here's why: It's a PRIVATE school. It's not a public school. So when he enrolled in that school, both he and his parents agreed to the school's rules. If the school's rules included behaviors that were prohibited even off of school property and outside of school hours, they agreed to them. They broke those rules and the school is 100% within its rights to suspend or terminate the student for the violation.

I agree with everyone here that this rule is unreasonable and that this suspension is probably the best thing to ever happen to this young man. He just learned that religion to this degree is intolerant, rigid, prideful, and merciless. It is the precise opposite of what Christianity is meant to be.

My hope is that public backlash against such a rule will cause parents to withdraw their kids from the school, forcing the school to change its rules. However, nobody passed a law forcing this family to send this kid to this school. So they voluntarily agreed to these rules, no matter how absurd.
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IHadAPheo
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 6:32 pm

I have to disagree, if they knowingly agreed to the rules of the school before attending the school they should not be shocked when violating the agreed upon rules results in action being taken.

There are fraternal organizations that require one to obey a code of conduct that limits activities that even though they may occur outside of the organization are deemed to be detrimental to organization.

Whilst not exactly the same situation but people have been excommunicated for simply expressing thoughts or taking part in activities that 100% legal. The fact that this was done by a private school that is run by religious organization may change what is allowed.

I find the schools action to be draconian to say the least however if the parents were made aware of this exact limitation I feel they should not have a judgment in their favor. HOWEVER if this limitation on prom attendance was NOT know to them I do feel that they should prevail in any legal procedings

Sorry if I was not clear in my earlier post...
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cba
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 7:32 pm



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
by the sounds of things it could be the best thing to ever happen to him - maybe his parents will come to their senses and send him to a normal school now that this one has shown how utterly crackpot it is

 checkmark 

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 7):
Does he, though? If the school explicitly states (is this the case?) that it does not tolerate such behaviour, then presumably this would be, within those parameters, an appropriate sanction to take for a contravention of the school rules... in addition, he was warned about the possible consequences.



Quoting Ihadapheo (Reply 9):
If the school had a code of conduct that spelled out the consequences of violating said code and the code of conduct was known to the parents at the time of enrollment there may not be many legal options open to the parents.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
It does not matter. This kid was attending prom OUTSIDE of school hours at a different school.

 checkmark 

A school's code of conduct can only regulate behavior on the school's premises. I hope that the father does in fact sue. Not sure if there is any precedent on this issue, but I would be highly surprised if the school, whether private or public, can legally punish a student for things done outside of school property and outside of school hours.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Here's why: It's a PRIVATE school. It's not a public school. So when he enrolled in that school, both he and his parents agreed to the school's rules. If the school's rules included behaviors that were prohibited even off of school property and outside of school hours, they agreed to them. They broke those rules and the school is 100% within its rights to suspend or terminate the student for the violation.

I'm pretty sure a court of law would fully disagree with you. The school's view and punishment is that It is illegal! The kid is free to do whatever he wishes outside of the school's hours and off their property. The last time I checked, this is the United States of America; not North Korea or China.....

Also, we don't even know what the exact rules are for this school. Maybe someone in Findlay, Ohio can fill us in on this exact rule.

Quoting Cba (Reply 13):
A school's code of conduct can only regulate behavior on the school's premises

 checkmark  Thank you!

Quoting Cba (Reply 13):
Not sure if there is any precedent on this issue, but I would be highly surprised if the school, whether private or public, can legally punish a student for things done outside of school property and outside of school hours.

They can't since, like you and I said, this occurred outside of school hours and not even on their own premises.
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fraspotter
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:00 pm

I found this letter from the school on their website
http://www.heritagefindlay.org/

Quote:
First, the article in the Courier is fairly accurate. What the article leaves out are the principles behind the rules. In the Old Testament, Joseph was in a place of temptation and he fled. Unlike this situation, he didn’t put himself in that place. Proverbs 4:23 says, “Keep your heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life.” II Timothy 2:22 says, “Flee also youthful lusts but follow after righteousness faith charity and peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.” When the school committee, many years before I became the principal, set up the policy regarding dancing, I am confident that they had the principle of fleeing lustful situations in mind. The question as I see it is, should a Christian place themselves at an event where young ladies will have low cut dresses and be dancing in them? Isn’t it contrary to the example of Joseph and the verses that I stated? Second, at the beginning of the school year, every family must sign a statement of cooperation. Students in 7th through 12th grades must also sign it. It doesn’t say that you have to agree with them, but that we will all abide by them. What kind of a school would we be if we suspended a policy because it was convenient to do so? That would not be a Christ-like response. Jesus did not avoid trouble. He made statements such as, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me” (John 14:6). His statements didn’t make Him popular with the world. Can we expect anything else? The verses that I have thought of throughout this day are Matthew 5:11-12, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” Wow! I can build up a whole lot of rewards in heaven today, and so can you.

Third, when discussing this particular issue with folks in the community please remember that the servant of the Lord "must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness" (2 Tim 2:24, 25).

Esther received great counsel from her uncle Mordecai when he said, “And who knoweth whether thou art come into the kingdom for such a time as this.” (Esther 4:14). This is a time for Heritage to shine as a light in this world. It isn’t easy, but it is right.

"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
 
fraspotter
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:02 pm



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 5):
I expect this was being written in the mainstream in the 1950's when the youth of America was being presented with the "dangerous" music stars and music of the day.

And Elvis Presley was a "heathen"...  Yeah sure
"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:07 pm



Quoting FRAspotter (Thread starter):
It turns out that the Christian high school "forbids dancing, rock music and hand holding"...

Thats weird. I currently attend a Catholic school and trust me we could rival public schools in our area in all those areas. That may not sound too bad but we have the worst High Schools in the sate of Connecticut.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
This kid was attending prom OUTSIDE of school hours at a different school. This is this kid's personal time. He can do whatever he choses to do outside these hours

I agree with you but even in my school's handbook/Code of conduct it states that if we get arrested/ introuble with the police minus tickets of course it is an automatic expulsion. Another Catholic school (that is not quite as strict) in the area just sudpended 20-30 kids because they were caught at a party drinking underage by the police.
Blue
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AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:26 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
....but even in my school's handbook/Code of conduct it states that if we get arrested/ introuble with the police minus tickets of course it is an automatic expulsion. Another Catholic school (that is not quite as strict) in the area just sudpended 20-30 kids because they were caught at a party drinking underage by the police.

This, I can agree with....sorta...this is for a different thread. But then again, this kid didn't get arrested. He went to a perfecly legal prom....and it was supervised, I suspect. What this private school has up its butt is beyond me.

What did this kid do to the school that ticked them off in the first place?!

Now, if this does eventually end up in a court of law (my gut tells me that the school will go after this kid and it will end up in a court of law...), you can bet your bottom dollar that the courts will open up this kid's personal school record and will look at the grades, attendance, behavior, etc etc. If the records do show this is a model student with no problems, then the courts will grill the school and find out why they went after this guy. The school better have a better defense other than the policy that FRAspotter posted in reply 15 because I highly doubt the courts would buy into that BS. They better have a very, very, very good reason for this!

Graduation is a huge part of the educational process, which makes the student feel proud that he/she did something great in a positive way....boosts confidence and morale.

With that in mind..... By Federal Law, no school...be it private nor public, is allowed to block the right to an education. In my viewpoint, this school is violating that law. A huge no-no!

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 15):
Quote:
First, the article in the Courier is fairly accurate. What the article leaves out are the principles behind the rules. In the Old Testament, Joseph was in a place of temptation and he fled. Unlike this situation, he didn’t put himself in that place. Proverbs 4:23 says, “Keep your heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life.” II Timothy 2:22 says, “Flee also youthful lusts but follow after righteousness faith charity and peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.” When the school committee, many years before I became the principal, set up the policy regarding dancing, I am confident that they had the principle of fleeing lustful situations in mind. The question as I see it is, should a Christian place themselves at an event where young ladies will have low cut dresses and be dancing in them? Isn’t it contrary to the example of Joseph and the verses that I stated? Second, at the beginning of the school year, every family must sign a statement of cooperation. Students in 7th through 12th grades must also sign it. It doesn’t say that you have to agree with them, but that we will all abide by them. What kind of a school would we be if we suspended a policy because it was convenient to do so? That would not be a Christ-like response. Jesus did not avoid trouble. He made statements such as, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me” (John 14:6). His statements didn’t make Him popular with the world. Can we expect anything else? The verses that I have thought of throughout this day are Matthew 5:11-12, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” Wow! I can build up a whole lot of rewards in heaven today, and so can you.

Third, when discussing this particular issue with folks in the community please remember that the servant of the Lord "must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness" (2 Tim 2:24, 25).

Esther received great counsel from her uncle Mordecai when he said, “And who knoweth whether thou art come into the kingdom for such a time as this.” (Esther 4:14). This is a time for Heritage to shine as a light in this world. It isn’t easy, but it is right.

With all due respect.... but are these people really nuts?!  irked  (Not you, FRAspotter....)
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
FURUREFA
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:42 pm

Here are my two cents...

I go to a private school near Boston, MA, and our school - just like most other private schools - hold us liable for what we do off school property. We're not supposed to drink, smoke weed, etc., and if the school finds pictures of us on facebook or hears about us doing anything that goes "against the code of conduct" we will get disciplined (detention, suspension, expulsion).

It doesn't really matter if one family disagrees with this principle; If I were to get in trouble and get kicked out, someone would take my place in a heartbeat (demand/competitive admissions process). In fact, stories about students going to a party, drinking, putting pictures up on facebook, and then getting kicked out are quite ubiquitous.

Matt
 
fraspotter
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:49 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
With all due respect.... but are these people really nuts?! irked (Not you, FRAspotter....)

 Smile

This is what I was thinking when reading it... If you didn't know any better, most people who read this would think that this was written in the 1950's as mentioned in reply 5.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 5):
I expect this was being written in the mainstream in the 1950's when the youth of America was being presented with the "dangerous" music stars and music of the day.

"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Mon May 11, 2009 11:55 pm



Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 19):

But again, this kid did not do any of that!

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 20):
This is what I was thinking when reading it... If you didn't know any better, most people who read this would think that this was written in the 1950's as mentioned in reply 5.

Seems to me that these people have been living in the past these days. Didn't they get the memo that it is now 2009?!  sarcastic 

Times have changed! And when times change, so do the rules to fit in with the times.
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lowrider
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 2:13 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
The school's view and punishment is that It is illegal!

No one's view is illegal. The students continues attendance at the school and the school's continuing to provide education can be viewed as two parts of a contract. This contract is between two private parties.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
By Federal Law, no school...be it private nor public, is allowed to block the right to an education. In my viewpoint, this school is violating that law. A huge no-no!

Sure they can. If the parents stop paying, the school can stop admitting him. If he sets the bathroom on fire, the school can suspend or expel him. There is no absolute right to education in the same way that there is a right to free speech. Students can even be expelled from public schools. It is a right that is contingent upon meeting certain standards.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
With all due respect.... but are these people really nuts?!

Like it or not, it is what they believe. They have chosen to set up a school for like minded families. It is not like they are beating the kids or locking them in sweatshops. They just have different educational priorities. If other parents disagree, they are free to send their kids elsewhere.
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StarAC17
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 2:37 am



Quoting FRAspotter (Thread starter):
Personally, I don't remember hearing about the Taliban running a school in Ohio... Yeah sure

Flame me if you must for making this statement but the mindset behind both fundamental Islam and Christianity is strikingly similar and just as insane.

The only difference is that fundamentalist Christians mostly live in regions where their beliefs are currently not tolerated as law, where as in Muslim Countries their religious beliefs are actually law. Everyone is the west should be very thankful for this.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 3:14 am



Quoting Cba (Reply 13):

A school's code of conduct can only regulate behavior on the school's premises. I hope that the father does in fact sue. Not sure if there is any precedent on this issue, but I would be highly surprised if the school, whether private or public, can legally punish a student for things done outside of school property and outside of school hours.

I agree and think this guy has a chance. I will have to contact a friend who teaches at a private school and see what she says about this.

KH
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
texan
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 4:48 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
I hope the step dad sues as he has a good chance of winning.

No, he does not. They signed a contract to go to that school and abide by the contract. Courts give private schools a lot of leeway to determine what should be in a contract like a code of conduct. This includes activities that occur away from school in some circumstances.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
To be frank, this is the first time i've heard of beliefs like this at a christian school.

Happens quite often at Baptist schools. Hell, Baylor University in Waco, Texas didn't allow dancing until the past 15 years or so (from what I remember). Strict Baptists, especially strict Southern Baptists, do not believe in dancing. It is the same for Church of Christ.

Quoting Ihadapheo (Reply 9):
If the school had a code of conduct that spelled out the consequences of violating said code and the code of conduct was known to the parents at the time of enrollment there may not be many legal options open to the parents.

 checkmark 

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I'm pretty sure a court of law would fully disagree with you. The school's view and punishment is that It is illegal! The kid is free to do whatever he wishes outside of the school's hours and off their property. The last time I checked, this is the United States of America; not North Korea or China...

If it was a public school, the school could not regulate it. At a private school, courts give great deference to the school and tend to disfavor overturning decisions of private school for which a contract has been signed unless the rules are not enforced for the announced purpose. In this case, the rules were enforced for the announced purpose, and the parents and student signed contracts stating that they understood the rules and regulations. A district court might overrule the school (although I still doubt it). On appeal, I do not think it likely that a court would overrule the school or let stand an order by a district court overruling the school.

However, these are just my observations. And yes, I think the regulations are ridiculous. But if I were the parent, I would have read them, made sure I understood them, and then not enrolled my child in the school in the first place! Their decision to live by the school's rules. The kid had other scholastic options, yet they signed a contract to go to this school. Tough luck. Next time read the damn contract before getting yourself into this kind of mess.

Texan
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aznmadsci
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 4:58 am



Quoting Texan (Reply 25):
Happens quite often at Baptist schools. Hell, Baylor University in Waco, Texas didn't allow dancing until the past 15 years or so (from what I remember). Strict Baptists, especially strict Southern Baptists, do not believe in dancing. It is the same for Church of Christ.

Yeah! I remember when Dia del Oso FINALLY allowed dancing on campus grounds in the 90s!!!!! To think my parents wanted me to go there and I ended up at Tulane, the complete antithesis to Baylor!
The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 5:25 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
The problem is that the school where the prom took place required persons attending who are non-students of it to get a permission slip signed by the school they attend. I am not sure why the prom hosting school has this requirement, to me set rules and any such permission to come from a parent if the non-school attendee is less than 18 years old, and strict age limits of not more than 19 years old should be sufficient.

I would suspect it's to keep kids from rival schools from coming in as "invited guests" and causing trouble. Kids being kids, if you're thinking of going to your crosstown rival's prom to wreak havoc, start fights, anything to spoil their good time, the last thing you want is for your own school officials to know about it. IMO, It's a measure of protection for the kids who have paid alot of money to have a good time.

As for cases like this i tend to say the rules are the rules and aren't open to discussion. You either accept and abide by them or go to school somewhere else. The problem i have with the notion of a lawsuit over a blatant violation of school policy and discplinary action in response of that violation is that it sends the wrong message. So this kid violates the rules, which he agreed to abide by, gets busted, sues the school, and wins, meaning that even though he knowingly violated the rules, he got away with it. What message does that send to the next kid who doesn't like the rules? That it's okay to violate the rules because if you get busted you'll just have your parents sue the school? In that case, the school has lost all of it's authority over the students, because the students know they can basically do whatever they want with little or no repurcussions. Whether it be a private or public school, students aren't customers to be accorded with the right to do whatever they want, they're charges. The rules are set down by the administration as what's in the best interest of everyone and as what's in the interest of promoting the mission of the school, from what i've read on this thread, to provide a faith based education to students whose parents are willing to pay for it. It sounds like the particular faith the school represents believes music and dancing will lead to innappropriate contact between male and female students so they set rules that promote chastity. 83 other sets of parents agreed with those values or they wouldn't have sent their kids there.

I think the best thing this kid's parents can do is say "tough luck, serve out your suspension, and next time, if you're going to break the rules, be discrete about it." he will have learned a lesson that the rules are not negotiable for him but not negotiable for everyone else. it'll be a good lesson.

[Edited 2009-05-11 22:29:00]
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kiwiandrew

RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 6:29 am



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 27):
I think the best thing this kid's parents can do is say "tough luck, serve out your suspension, and next time, if you're going to break the rules, be discrete about it."

an excellent lesson for him to learn from a 'christian' school Big grin


- though personally I think the real lesson is 'don't send your kids to schools run by extremists' regardless of what religion it may be
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 7:46 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):

I'm pretty sure a court of law would fully disagree with you. The school's view and punishment is that It is illegal! The kid is free to do whatever he wishes outside of the school's hours and off their property. The last time I checked, this is the United States of America; not North Korea or China.....

Yup. And in my job, if I were to be found having sex with one of my adult patients outside of the clinic and outside of work hours, guess what? That would be a serious ethical breach and I'd be fired. And rightfully so.

And so in the United States of America you are free to enter into an agreement with someone else. If you don't read that agreement, then let the buyer beware. It was mighty foolish of them to enroll in that school if they weren't OK with the rules.

Another example: I am looking for apartments right now. Some of the apartment ads put up rules about what I may and may not do behind closed doors. For example, one apartment forbid significant others from spending the other. Another forbade smoking, whether tobacco or pot, in your own room.

Some of these rules I'm fine with, and others I'm not. But I'm not going to agree to a set of rules and then decide that I don't like them once I've agreed to them.

A private school can mandate that their students do whatever they want, as long as the rules are set out at the time of enrollment. If these parents and the kid disagreed with the rules, then they shouldn't have enrolled. Case closed.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 23):

Flame me if you must for making this statement but the mindset behind both fundamental Islam and Christianity is strikingly similar and just as insane.

Fundamentalism, whether Muslim, Christian, Hindu (yes they exist) or any other religion is essentially the same.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 2:23 pm



Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 15):
found this letter from the school on their website

They've got so many Bible quotes that whatever they were trying to say got "lost in translation"...

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 23):
The only difference is that fundamentalist Christians mostly live in regions where their beliefs are currently not tolerated as law, where as in Muslim Countries their religious beliefs are actually law. Everyone is the west should be very thankful for this.

Please forward your thanks to Martin Luther, Jan Hus, John Wycliffe and others because without these gentlemen we would be stuck with a system where "secular" would be an unknown concept.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 9:25 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 22):

Your opinion, I respect that.

Quoting Texan (Reply 25):
Happens quite often at Baptist schools. Hell, Baylor University in Waco, Texas didn't allow dancing until the past 15 years or so (from what I remember). Strict Baptists, especially strict Southern Baptists, do not believe in dancing. It is the same for Church of Christ.

Sounds like Nazi Germany.

Quoting Texan (Reply 25):
A district court might overrule the school (although I still doubt it). On appeal, I do not think it likely that a court would overrule the school or let stand an order by a district court overruling the school.

Oh, they'll be overruled. It really depends on the kid's school records. They are going to open up his entire life before the court.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 27):
I think the best thing this kid's parents can do is say "tough luck, serve out your suspension, and next time, if you're going to break the rules, be discrete about it."

The problem is, the is no next time. This kid is a senior. I say the school should just drop this and move on to more serious stuff rather than having to pay for a costly lawyer and raise tuition prices for the rest of the students.
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steeler83
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 9:58 pm



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 5):
I expect this was being written in the mainstream in the 1950's when the youth of America was being presented with the "dangerous" music stars and music of the day.

To add on to FRAspotter's response:

Oh, and I suppose Elvis Presley gave everyone herpees and/or the clap then

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
The school that this kid attends to cannot dictate what the kid can and cannot do outside the normal school hours off of school grounds, period. It is ridiculous and illegal.

While some on here agree with the school, saying that the parents have no rights whatsoever, I am sorry but I disagree...

Even if the parents and their kid may have "agreed" to these rules and guidelines, I think these rules are wrong and unconstitutional. This rediculous rule needs to be done away with. Holding hands, listening to rock music illegal outside of school? Going to the prom with someone who goes to a public school illegal? That is a bogus rule if there ever was one. What's next, they can't go to the mall on certain days or after a certain hour?

Get a clue, and get a life people...
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lowrider
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Tue May 12, 2009 10:55 pm



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 32):
I think these rules are wrong and unconstitutional. This rediculous rule needs to be done away with.

Fine. Don't go to that school or don't send your kids there. For those that want it and are able to pay for it, not letting them have it strikes me as narrow minded and intolerant as many here have accused the school of being.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 3:20 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 33):
Fine. Don't go to that school or don't send your kids there. For those that want it and are able to pay for it, not letting them have it strikes me as narrow minded and intolerant as many here have accused the school of being.

I think you are missing Steeler83's point. The rules are inappropriate and teaches fear into kids, that is not right. It is almost like having Hitler as your principal, in this case, it does. The courts are going to be grilling the school for this particular rule. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the local congressman was involved.

As I have said earlier, graduation is a part of the educational process provided by law. The school cannot prevent a student from graduating if he/she has met the criteria to graduate. Does this kid have the grades to graduate? If so, let the kid walk and be done with it.

The school is wasting their time and resources on something that is just plain stupid.

I wouldn't be surprised if parents at that school started pulling their kids out and transferring them to public schools.

Bad PR the school just got.... Just too bad.... Their bank account probably just plummeted!
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lowrider
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 3:43 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
The rules are inappropriate

Why? Because you don't like them? That is the sort of reasoning a 12 year old would use.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
and teaches fear into kids,

All this time I thought a consistent system of rules both in and out of school would teach children not to have two sets of behavioral standards, something we would elsewhere call hypocrisy.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
It is almost like having Hitler as your principal, in this case, it does. The courts are going to be grilling the school for this particular rule. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the local congressman was involved.

Again we drag out Hitler for some rule or regulation we don't like. If anything, Hitler did have two sets of standards, one for the Jews and others he wanted to eliminate, and one for the good Aryans. If courts will allow Baptist and Mormon schools to have this sort of code of conduct elsewhere in the nation, why not in Ohio? No congressman will touch this one, nor should they. This is a matter internal to a religious institution. Will we have them throwing out the uniforms at Catholic Schools next?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
As I have said earlier, graduation is a part of the educational process provided by law. The school cannot prevent a student from graduating if he/she has met the criteria to graduate

And part of that criteria is following the schools code of conduct while a student. There is no absolute right to a diploma.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
The school is wasting their time and resources on something that is just plain stupid.

Yes, the phone call to the parents and the letter in the kids file must have really taxed the budget.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
wouldn't be surprised if parents at that school started pulling their kids out and transferring them to public schools.

I would be. Parents pay a lot to send their kids to these sorts of schools because they either want a more structured environment or the local public schools are so bad it is worth the investment.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 4:16 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
There is no absolute right to a diploma.

Ooooo careful with that... If you have the grades.... then it is your right.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
Yes, the phone call to the parents and the letter in the kids file must have really taxed the budget.

And your are forgetting the pending litigation against the school would cost them money....

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
I would be. Parents pay a lot to send their kids to these sorts of schools because they either want a more structured environment or the local public schools are so bad it is worth the investment.

For once we agree....

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
No congressman will touch this one, nor should they.

Are you wagering bet on that??

Lets await on what happens in this case. I am betting the school is going to suspend the kid knowing the risk it will take financially in a court of law. Mark my words.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 4:20 am

I think rather than the parents trying to sue the school ( regardless of how crackpot the rules are the parents signed up to them when they enrolled their kid , as has been pointed out by a number of posters ) perhaps the kid ought to sue his parents for signing him up for it in the first place . What could be more heartwarming and all-American than a good intra-family lawsuit  Wink
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 4:22 am



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 37):

The problem with that is suing each other within your family, unfortunately, breaks up the family in ways you'd never imagine. That wouldn't be an option.

I would take it you were joking based on the wink you gave at the end.  Wink
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kiwiandrew

RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 4:26 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 38):
The problem with that is suing each other within your family, unfortunately, breaks up the family in ways you'd never imagine. That wouldn't be an option.

that hasn't stopped people before ... but yes , I was joking .

Quite seriously though , the parents signed this kid up for something that they clearly didnt agree with themselves , perhaps they should have read what they were signing their kid up for before they committed to it . Hopefully now they will sign the kid up to a different school where he is permitted to think for himself .
 
lowrider
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 5:08 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Ooooo careful with that... If you have the grades.... then it is your right.

Not in all states. 26 also require passing a graduation exam. Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts,
Minnesota, Mississippi, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio,
Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and Washington. Many states also have other requirements, such as the completion of a certain core curriculum, minimum attendance standards, and so on. There is more to it than just grades.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
And your are forgetting the pending litigation against the school would cost them money....

I think it would be over as soon as the school slapped down the copy of the code of conduct with the parents' signatures at the bottom. No one forced them to enroll their kid here. They chose to play by these rules.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Are you wagering bet on that??

Sure. What Congressman wants to appear on Larry King trying to explain why he is using the power of the government office he was elected to, quite possibly by some of these same parents, to influence a disciplinary issue at a religious school?

What's the wager?
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texan
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 5:28 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
As I have said earlier, graduation is a part of the educational process provided by law. The school cannot prevent a student from graduating if he/she has met the criteria to graduate. Does this kid have the grades to graduate?

PUBLIC education, not private. There is no right to private education. Private schools may set their own codes of conduct and may suspend or expel people for violating the code of conduct, regardless of whether or not it concerns grades or even on campus activities. Again, though, just because that is the law does not mean that you or I have to like it. It also does not mean that we have to send our kids to a school that has standards like this.

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cgnnrw
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 10:48 am

re: the schools response in defending their rules - where is the Christian attribute of forgiveness? Or "let he without sin cast the first stone"?

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
Thats weird. I currently attend a Catholic school
and trust me we could rival public schools in our area

Catholic High Schools are not the same as Christian High Schools.....Catholic schools are great places to hook-up with chearleaders, easy acces to alcohol, etc. Christian schools are voluntary prisons.

I didn't read the whole article but if the school does suspend the kid will he still be able to graduate and receive a diploma? If yes, then he should just deal with it. If not, then he and parents should tell the administration to shove the rules up their Christian butts and look into getting the GED certificate.
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DocLightning
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 2:54 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):

As I have said earlier, graduation is a part of the educational process provided by law. The school cannot prevent a student from graduating if he/she has met the criteria to graduate. Does this kid have the grades to graduate? If so, let the kid walk and be done with it.

No, because you have to have the grades AND have followed the rules.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):

I think you are missing Steeler83's point. The rules are inappropriate and teaches fear into kids, that is not right.

I agree with you completely. So you shouldn't send your kids there. This is a free country, so the school can set the rules it likes. If enough parents don't like them, then they will disenroll and the school will go belly-up.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 32):
Even if the parents and their kid may have "agreed" to these rules and guidelines, I think these rules are wrong and unconstitutional.

Please cite the clause of the Constitution violated by this private, non-governmental school.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 7:43 pm



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 39):
Hopefully now they will sign the kid up to a different school where he is permitted to think for himself .

The only problem is that this kid is a Senior, meaning: the end of his high school career. Now the school is screwing up his future, probably only because of that, just to make a political/religious point and set and example of him. That, is unethical.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 40):
Sure. What Congressman wants to appear on Larry King trying to explain why he is using the power of the government office he was elected to, quite possibly by some of these same parents, to influence a disciplinary issue at a religious school?

What's the wager?

That is what I was asking you. And I have seen congressmen from my home state stand up for students educational rights in the past. I don't how this would be any different here regardless private nor public. Besides, it is federal law that kids attend school, is it not??

And who said anything about being on Larry King?!  confused 

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 42):
I didn't read the whole article but if the school does suspend the kid will he still be able to graduate and receive a diploma? If yes, then he should just deal with it. If not, then he and parents should tell the administration to shove the rules up their Christian butts and look into getting the GED certificate.

That is the main question and the whole point to the thread. Nobody seems to know what is happening or what will happen. It all depends if that newspaper publishes an update to the story, which they probably will not. So we will never know, unless someone in Ohio emails the publisher for updates.....

Getting a GED, IMO, isn't as good as a normal high school diploma. A lot of colleges and businesses frown upon GED's. I guess the reputation of GED's "screams" that the person was a high school drop-out.
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steeler83
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 8:15 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
I think you are missing Steeler83's point.

Thanks.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
The rules are inappropriate and teaches fear into kids, that is not right. It is almost like having Hitler as your principal, in this case, it does.

I do agree that such rules are inappropriate. The kid is outside of school, and unless a crime was committed, outside actions should not prevent any student from graduating and receiving his or her diploma.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
I would be. Parents pay a lot to send their kids to these sorts of schools because they either want a more structured environment or the local public schools are so bad it is worth the investment.

For once we agree....

I also agree with that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
Please cite the clause of the Constitution violated by this private, non-governmental school.

Ok, perhaps unconstitutional is too strong of a word here. I was essentially agreeing with someone else's post and interpreting how I use the word "illegal." Maybe I misinterpreted the use of th word...

Yes, everyone has a right to an education here. I must say tho, that if I were to not receive a diploma just because I danced to rock and roll, held hands with and took a girl to a prom at her school, I would be thinking, "what gives?"

I just think it's wrong... It does not make sense... I dunno, I guess since because it's a private school and it's their rule, maybe they're exepmt from the public school system and can invent their own set of rules regardless how hellish and senseless they are. The only winning move here would be to not send kids to these kinds of schools... Granted, public school systems are generally not any upgrade in many locations...
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lowrider
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Wed May 13, 2009 10:20 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 44):
And who said anything about being on Larry King?!

That is the next level of escalation. If I was a parent of a student who agreed with the school's position, I would call Larry King, Keith Olberman, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, or who ever else would listen. A congressman at home, away from camera and spotlights is usually a much different creature from the one who suddenly has his actions called into question and thrust onto a national stage for all to examine and comment on. I would frame it as a First Amendment issue. If you don't want the church interfering with government schools, then the government should stay out of church schools.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 44):
And I have seen congressmen from my home state stand up for students educational rights in the past. I don't how this would be any different here regardless private nor public. Besides, it is federal law that kids attend school, is it not??

Attending this school is not a right. It is not tax funded and it is not a public institution. I the interplay of state and federal law in education can get complicated, but it would boil down to that he has to attend a school, not this particular school . Let him transfer and finish at a public school. Then it would be a public institution and many of the points you have previously brought up would come into play.

As to the wager, well, I am not sure what I could put up. Most of my airline/airplane swag is reserved for the next Identify This contest. I do know a few places near Denver that serve fine brews and occasionally transit the area...
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DocLightning
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Thu May 14, 2009 7:39 am



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 45):

Yes, everyone has a right to an education here. I must say tho, that if I were to not receive a diploma just because I danced to rock and roll, held hands with and took a girl to a prom at her school, I would be thinking, "what gives?"

You do have a right to an education. You do not have a right to a private education from that school. As long as the private school's rules aren't abusive (i.e. they can't punish kids by dipping them up to their necks in animal manure), then they can make whatever rules they want.

There is no law mandating that a teenager must be permitted to attend prom, or must be permitted to socially dance outside of school.
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iairallie
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Thu May 14, 2009 8:14 am

I don't agree with the rules of this school which is why I would never attend or send a child to the school. However, I believe the school as a private organization can set what ever conditions they want for attendance.

Quoting Cba (Reply 13):
A school's code of conduct can only regulate behavior on the school's premises

Not so at all. Private schools are voluntary participation institutions. When you choose to go there you agree to follow certain rules. If you don't like the rules and policies of that institution you can take your kid and your money elsewhere. As a private entity the school can decide to expel students who do not live up to their end of the contract and break the rules they agreed to follow. Attendance at the school is conditional dependent on both parties upholding their respective ends of the agreement.

Quoting Cba (Reply 13):
I would be highly surprised if the school, whether private or public, can legally punish a student for things done outside of school property and outside of school hours.

They can indeed. Agree to the rules then break the rules and the school can take what steps they feel are just. The parent can always remove their child from that school if they think it's unfair.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
The school cannot prevent a student from graduating if he/she has met the criteria to graduate

You are right. This kid has every right to go to another school and graduate. This school can't stop him from attending another school.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
I wouldn't be surprised if parents at that school started pulling their kids out and transferring them to public schools.

Doubtful. Those parents all agreed to the rules when they enrolled their kids. It's not like this is some sort of surprise. Most of the parents probably picked this school because it meshed with their values.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 40):
What's the wager?

Yeah! I want in on this, easy money rules.
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us330
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RE: Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom...

Thu May 14, 2009 11:21 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
No he can't. Here's why: It's a PRIVATE school. It's not a public school. So when he enrolled in that school, both he and his parents agreed to the school's rules. If the school's rules included behaviors that were prohibited even off of school property and outside of school hours, they agreed to them. They broke those rules and the school is 100% within its rights to suspend or terminate the student for the violation.

I agree with everyone here that this rule is unreasonable and that this suspension is probably the best thing to ever happen to this young man. He just learned that religion to this degree is intolerant, rigid, prideful, and merciless. It is the precise opposite of what Christianity is meant to be.

My hope is that public backlash against such a rule will cause parents to withdraw their kids from the school, forcing the school to change its rules. However, nobody passed a law forcing this family to send this kid to this school. So they voluntarily agreed to these rules, no matter how absurd.



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
I agree with you but even in my school's handbook/Code of conduct it states that if we get arrested/ introuble with the police minus tickets of course it is an automatic expulsion. Another Catholic school (that is not quite as strict) in the area just sudpended 20-30 kids because they were caught at a party drinking underage by the police.



Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 19):
I go to a private school near Boston, MA, and our school - just like most other private schools - hold us liable for what we do off school property. We're not supposed to drink, smoke weed, etc., and if the school finds pictures of us on facebook or hears about us doing anything that goes "against the code of conduct" we will get disciplined (detention, suspension, expulsion).



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
I think you are missing Steeler83's point. The rules are inappropriate and teaches fear into kids, that is not right. It is almost like having Hitler as your principal, in this case, it does



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
You do have a right to an education. You do not have a right to a private education from that school. As long as the private school's rules aren't abusive (i.e. they can't punish kids by dipping them up to their necks in animal manure), then they can make whatever rules they want.

DocLightning is pretty much right on target. It's a private school, and as long as they don't cross the line into conducting criminal activities (which banning kids from going to prom, listening to rock music, etc. are decidedly not), they can pretty much do whatever they want. The kid knowingly violated school rules, and while I may be sympathetic to the guy's argument, the fact is that he broke the rules and got caught doing so. Though he may be an adult, he is still a member of the school's community, and him being expelled or suspended from the school will not affect him legally in the future on unrelated matters. Heck, it might not even affect him in terms of what college he decides to attend (if the university is secular that is--not one with a religious slant or affiliation like Pepperdine, Liberty, Bob Jones, Oral Roberts, etc.). College officials at a secular university would basically laugh at this, and would find no reason to revoke his previous offer of admission.

Unlike public schools, private schools exist somewhat in a legal gray area concerning issues like the constitution and the like simply because they are private, not public organizations. They can be seen, legally at least, almost like a private corporation or company, especially when dealing when constitutional issues. Just as you can get fired from a company for exercising your constitutional right of free speech (ie. you insult your boss or make politically incorrect jokes and are overheard by the wrong person, etc), you can get punished by school officials (public or private) for doing the same thing--see the "Bong Hits for Jesus" case in Alaska. Courts have also ruled that schools have the right to censor and limit student publications as they see fit (i was on the high school newspaper, and as somewhat of a pot-stirrer, I was well aware of what my limitations were), and can limit students' rights of free expressions. This goes for public and private, mind you.

As someone who attended the same strict private school (uniforms and an arbitrary administration that basically did whatever it wanted, even if it violated the principle of some of its own rules--but that's a whole 'nother story) I can concur that Jetblueguy22 's and FURFUREFA's examples are more the "norm" for private schools than are not. We had a code of conduct/list of rules and regulations, and though it may have been forcefully enforced at times, you could hardly consider it similar to the constitution in terms of it being consistently applied. Sometimes it was applied to the letter of the code, other times it was tossed out altogether (especially if there were extenuating circumstances---a.k.a the kid who got busted was the son (it was an all boys school) of a wealthy donor or in lieu of punishment, the parents wrote the school a large check, you were a star athlete, etc.).

Granted, the school tended to be a bit more limited in their application of the code of conduct to off-campus activities, limiting it to largely issues concerning drug and alcohol use, and non-moving or parking violations of the law. In spite of that, there were still some "gaps." For example, while cigarette smoking was banned on-campus, there was no school rule that made it illegal for students to do it, provided they were of age, off-campus, yet there was an instance where an of-age student was seen smoking off-campus wearing his uniform and reported to the administration. I'm not sure what happened, but I don't think the kid was punished.

The fact is that whether or not you think that the school is being irrational, too much like a "nanny goat," they are still well within their rights for doing what they did.

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