D L X
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Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 3:45 pm

The question is simple. Should Vick be allowed back into the NFL when he completes his sentence next month?

I think yes. He has repaid his debt to society, and quite honestly (and this is coming from a dog lover), there are MANY worse crimes out there than dog fighting for which we as a society do not grant eternal punishment.
 
CO7e7
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 3:49 pm



Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
I think yes. He has repaid his debt to society, and quite honestly (and this is coming from a dog lover), there are MANY worse crimes out there than dog fighting for which we as a society do not grant eternal punishment.

I couldn't agree more with your statement (and i'm a dog lover as well)

With that said though, what teams do you think are willing to take a chance on him?

I heard on ESPN that the St. Louis Rams and the Seattle Seahawks might be 2 possibilities. Keep in mind, it's unlikely he'll be a starting QB, instead he'll be used on a slash-type package.

Your thought?
 
NIKV69
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 3:49 pm

Absolutely. The NFL lets murders play why not him? I am an animal lover too and think he is despicable but if we ban him there are many that also should be banned.
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sw733
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 3:53 pm

I think yes...he seems to really be sorry, and that is a big part of it. He did a horrible thing, but it's time to move on. The big question is - who wants him? Atlanta owns his rights, but obviously with Matty Ice there now (hate that nickname with all my passion), they do not need him. So who needs a scrambling QB? Not sure...so maybe his future is as a RB, or WR? Everyone needs those. The Cowboys and Bengals love criminals, so...  duck 

If he comes back as a QB, I would say he might end up in Minnesota, Houston, or Jacksonville. Other positions - all bets are off.

I heard some reports on ESPN last night say he may have to prove himself in the CFL before anyone takes a chance on him in the NFL.
 
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yowza
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 3:54 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 1):
With that said though, what teams do you think are willing to take a chance on him?

I think we've seen that the NFL almost across the board is willing to deal with players who have had a wide array of skirmishes with the law. The negative light Vick has deflected on the NFL is not even the worst publicity the league has had in recent years so the answer is any team with a young QB that needs a proven backup or any team with injury worries or woes at QB. Hell the raiders might take him on just to entertain their rabid fans.

If by some miracle Toronto got an expansion franchise I would happily pick him up!

YOWza
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
So who needs a scrambling QB?

Given how their OL plays, I think the Jets need one!

Quoting YOWza (Reply 4):
I think we've seen that the NFL almost across the board is willing to deal with players who have had a wide array of skirmishes with the law.

I wonder if protesters will show up to "dog" his every movement.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 4):
Hell the raiders might take him on just to entertain their rabid fans.

Yep, he'd fit right in with the crowd in OAK.
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NIKV69
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 4:16 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
I think the Jets need one!

Can you imagine Vic and Plaxico on the Jets! They may even win 8 games.  biggrin 
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D L X
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 4:18 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
I wonder if protesters will show up to "dog" his every movement.

Count on it. Absolutely.

There are two absolutes in this country: don't @#$ with baby, and don't @#$ with dogs and cats. Emotionally, those two crimes are vaulted up to the top of the public hysteria. You'll never live it down.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 4:48 pm



Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Should Vick be allowed back into the NFL when he completes his sentence next month?

I would like to see the NFL and all sports leagues institute a no felony rule. You want to get paid 10's of millions to throw a ball, is it too much to ask you try and stay out of trouble? If you can't, they are plenty of other folks who can and would happily take your place.
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AGM100
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 4:52 pm

I think he should , he paid his due. The guy is a football player , what else is he going to do.

Bring him , back let him get on with his life. Hopefully he has grown up , hopefully he will peel himself away from the thug life scene...its a dead end.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 4:53 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
I would like to see the NFL and all sports leagues institute a no felony rule. You want to get paid 10's of millions to throw a ball, is it too much to ask you try and stay out of trouble? If you can't, they are plenty of other folks who can and would happily take your place.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Most intelligent idea I've heard in a long time.

2H4
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NIKV69
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 4:59 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 10):
Most intelligent idea I've heard in a long time.

Unfortunatley there aren't that many folks out there that bring the fans and TV viewers. Before the dogfighting and early on Vick was one of the most entertaining athletes to watch. Remember it's a business and the bottom line will always win out over doing the right thing. If this wasn't true, Vick, Pacman and Ray Lewis would be in jail and not playing football.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 5:01 pm

Hope Goodell gives him the Pete Rose induction; ban him for life.  thumbsdown 
 
2H4
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 5:09 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Unfortunatley there aren't that many folks out there that bring the fans and TV viewers. Before the dogfighting and early on Vick was one of the most entertaining athletes to watch.

I don't think being entertaining and law-abiding are mutually exclusive. And if people are indeed tuning in and watching the sport because of the criminal activities of the athletes, the NFL et al are doing a disservice to us all by presenting such behavior and individuals as role models to kids across the country.

2H4
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yowza
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 5:19 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
I would like to see the NFL and all sports leagues institute a no felony rule.

Couldn't disagree more. Once somebody has paid their debt to society that should be it. Doesn't matter if they stand to lose a 10 million contract or a 6.85/hr job.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
the NFL et al are doing a disservice to us all by presenting such behavior and individuals as role models to kids across the country.

No idiot parents allowing their kids to idolize such behavior are doing the real disservice.

YOWza
 
2H4
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 5:30 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 14):
Once somebody has paid their debt to society that should be it. Doesn't matter if they stand to lose a 10 million contract or a 6.85/hr job.

That should be it....in terms of jail time and criminal penalties, yes. But shame on the NFL, NBA, etc for not demanding a reasonable level of professionalism (ie: no felonies) from the players.

Bottom line - it shouldn't be too much to ask the players to avoid committing felonies while under contract and representing their respective teams and organizations.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 14):
No idiot parents allowing their kids to idolize such behavior are doing the real disservice.

That's a factor, too. But it doesn't mean there aren't other big factors at play. And addressing the problems we're talking about....perpetuating bad role models and placing criminal behavior on a pedestal...would be much easier to address than poor parenting.

2H4

[Edited 2009-05-20 10:33:03]
Intentionally Left Blank
 
NIKV69
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 5:36 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
I don't think being entertaining and law-abiding are mutually exclusive. And if people are indeed tuning in and watching the sport because of the criminal activities of the athletes, the NFL et al are doing a disservice to us all by presenting such behavior and individuals as role models to kids across the country.

You completely missed the point. The sport needs viewers both live and from television to have revenue. Most of the impact players. The ones that are exciting to watch on the field, not off the field are what pay the bills. You look at the problem players like T.O. and the felons like Vick and Lewis they are the upper tier of players. The most talent. They make the game exciting and that equals viewers. It's kind of like Tiger. Do you realize that he brings 100% more viewers that are not even golf fans? Just because of his ability to win, come from behind and make shots that very few people would even attempt is what brings VIEWERS. RATINGS. That is the bottom line. If Tiger was caught in some sort of scandal, or commited a crime after he did his time and satisfied his obligation the PGA Tour would take him back in a second because without him there is no PGA Tour. Nobody but the golf geeks would watch.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 5:41 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 9):
The guy is a football player , what else is he going to do.

Lots of people have to make unwanted career changes. Think of how many airline workers have been laid off and are have had to move on to "Plan B".

Quoting YOWza (Reply 14):
No idiot parents allowing their kids to idolize such behavior are doing the real disservice.

Do you really think parents have control over who their kids idolize? Maybe if you lock them in the basement and never let them out (which I am NOT recommending), but outside of that, once they interact with their peers and with mass media it's all over.
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yowza
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 5:55 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Do you really think parents have control over who their kids idolize?

Not necessarily who they idolize but they can certainly shape them in their formative years to be upstanding people.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Maybe if you lock them in the basement and never let them out (which I am NOT recommending), but outside of that, once they interact with their peers and with mass media it's all over.

Hey I was not locked up and grew up playing rugby and other thuggish sports and turned out just fine.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 15):
That should be it....in terms of jail time and criminal penalties, yes. But shame on the NFL, NBA, etc for not demanding a reasonable level of professionalism (ie: no felonies) from the players.

Well as leagues I don't think any commissioner could come out and say that. Certain team owners though have put their foot down and released troublesome players.

YOwza
 
NIKV69
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 6:22 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Do you really think parents have control over who their kids idolize

This is not revelant. The era of kids idolizing sports figures is long past. Don't fall into that trap. It's about the money and brining people to watch. How many young kids go to the Superbowl? Not the right demographic.
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redflyer
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 6:57 pm



Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
He has repaid his debt to society, and quite honestly (and this is coming from a dog lover), there are MANY worse crimes out there than dog fighting for which we as a society do not grant eternal punishment.



Quoting YOWza (Reply 14):
Once somebody has paid their debt to society that should be it.

Vick has paid his debt to society as far as his criminal (felony) conduct is concerned. The problem, however, is that Vick is/was in a very high-profile job that has an extremely heavy influence on young people. The NFL knows this, which is why their player contracts have clauses regarding maintaining moral standards and avoiding negative publicity. To allow him back on the field is to send a very bad message, which is that money and fame is all one needs to rise above the law and professional conduct. His life is far from over and he will go on to lead a full and productive and, dare I say, money-making life. It just shouldn't be in the NFL.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 4):
The negative light Vick has deflected on the NFL

We only know about the crimes for which he was caught. I'm sure there were plenty of other goings-on that he didn't get caught on and we'll never know about.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
I would like to see the NFL and all sports leagues institute a no felony rule. You want to get paid 10's of millions to throw a ball, is it too much to ask you try and stay out of trouble? If you can't, they are plenty of other folks who can and would happily take your place.

 checkmark 

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Lots of people have to make unwanted career changes. Think of how many airline workers have been laid off and are have had to move on to "Plan B".

Think of all the pilots that lost their Medical and had to take a desk job. Heck, even sticking on topic, Vick might have lost his career because of an injury. I have no doubt he planned for that, as do most players. In his case, he lost his career because of a moral injury. Too bad. These lost careers happen in every profession. He's still young and I'm sure he still has plenty of money laying around. He needs to move on, as does the NFL.
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yowza
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 8:47 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
To allow him back on the field is to send a very bad message, which is that money and fame is all one needs to rise above the law and professional conduct.

He was convicted, tried, jailed, and served his time. I'm not sure how that's rising above the law.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
His life is far from over and he will go on to lead a full and productive and, dare I say, money-making life.

Without football impossible, ever heard the guys speak? Shakespeare he ain't!

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
It just shouldn't be in the NFL.

OK so if a high profile CEO had done the same thing and served his time would you say he should not be allowed back into corporate America and that he should instead join the army to pay his bills?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
We only know about the crimes for which he was caught. I'm sure there were plenty of other goings-on that he didn't get caught on and we'll never know about.

Wow! Sounds to me like you have a bigger bone to pick with this guy. Since you're sure he has done other things wrong...

YOWza
 
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LTU932
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 8:50 pm



Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Should Vick be allowed back into the NFL when he completes his sentence next month?

Absolutely not! Hell, why is it that the NFL has becomes so infamous for players, who have been charged with felonies? DUIs are bad enough, but people who shoot themselves in the shoulder (Plaxico Burress), or who make dog fights (Michael Vick) are really hurting the league, which is why I feel that College Football is much more better than the NFL in recent years, also because as amateurs, they still have to earn their education and don't have money influencing their judgement.

No, the NFL should start instituting a zero-tolerance policy to clean up the league. After all, as in every sport, those are role models for our kids in some way, and they have to stick to certain rules of behaviour, which includes staying the hell away from crime, otherwise, our kids may think that this is perfectly accepted no matter what punishment they get. That being said, a zero tolerance policy would probably eliminate quite a lot of players from the NFL, and I sincerely doubt that Roger Goodell would even think of doing such a thing. Nevertheless, Michael Vick should be banned from the NFL for life.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 8:58 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
No, the NFL should start instituting a zero-tolerance policy to clean up the league. After all, as in every sport, those are role models for our kids in some way, and they have to stick to certain rules of behaviour, which includes staying the hell away from crime, otherwise, our kids may think that this is perfectly accepted no matter what punishment they get. That being said, a zero tolerance policy would probably eliminate quite a lot of players from the NFL, and I sincerely doubt that Roger Goodell would even think of doing such a thing. Nevertheless, Michael Vick should be banned from the NFL for life.

You have no idea how professional sports in the US works if you make this statement. Look at the big money makers. MLB, NBA and NFL. Take the stars and you will see they are far from role models for young kids. If you want to clean up the bad element fine but the quality of play and # of viewers would be cut in half if not more and that will not be allowed to happen.

Look at some of the highest paid and most talented players from the last few years and tell me if you want them being role models.

Manny Ramirez
Raw Lewis
T.O.
Allen Iverson
Dennis Rodman
Kobe Bryant

The days of Micheal Jordon and Derek Jeter are behind us. It will be tough to find a player like Jeter who can bring the crowds and still have the wholesome image who is a team player.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 9:09 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 1):
I heard on ESPN that the St. Louis Rams and the Seattle Seahawks might be 2 possibilities.

We, Seattle fans politely decline. We don't want him.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
I would like to see the NFL and all sports leagues institute a no felony rule. You want to get paid 10's of millions to throw a ball, is it too much to ask you try and stay out of trouble? If you can't, they are plenty of other folks who can and would happily take your place.

 checkmark  Hear, hear! Truer words never spoken!

Quoting Fxramper (Reply 12):
Hope Goodell gives him the Pete Rose induction

That would settle things once for all!

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Think of how many airline workers have been laid off and are have had to move on to "Plan B".

Bad analogy.  no 

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
It will be tough to find a player like Jeter who can bring the crowds and still have the wholesome image who is a team player.

 rotfl  You kidding me?! Jeter is just as corrupt, too.
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NIKV69
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 9:16 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):
You kidding me?! Jeter is just as corrupt, too.

Oh please you can make an argument for MJ as well since he liked to gamble heavily but at least they aren't felons.  biggrin 
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par13del
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
OK so if a high profile CEO had done the same thing and served his time would you say he should not be allowed back into corporate America and that he should instead join the army to pay his bills?

No, because as far as most are concerned he worked for his money and made a mistake, professional athletes are just joes like us who by some fluke are biein paid millions to do something which is fun.

This mindset is worse for the sports which we can all play, like baseball, basket ball to a lesser extent football because most of us do not have the size and are willing to take a pounding, but put a basket ball into a hoop, now we can all do that. We never saw the countless hours MJ, Magic, Bird and others spent on the court after practise trying to get better. Same applies to M. Vick, professional sports is for the best of the best, guys in those leagues had to earn the right to be there, what you do when you get there is where Vick screwed up.

How much remose and how they expect him to show that is something else, since the comish is a exec I sure hope he gets on the Wall Street and Bankers row, those folks need to express some serious remorse for some of the mess the world is now in.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 9:54 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
You have no idea how professional sports in the US works if you make this statement. Look at the big money makers. MLB, NBA and NFL. Take the stars and you will see they are far from role models for young kids. If you want to clean up the bad element fine but the quality of play and # of viewers would be cut in half if not more and that will not be allowed to happen.

Yep you are absolutely right...It's all about the money aint it? You can be a total thug off the field ; Hell you can be a total thug on the field and as long as you bring the viewers it's all ok. We need to draw a line in the sand somewhere and stop letting felons be rewarded by allowing them to play for million dollar contracts. IMHO Vick didn't pay near enough. Animal cruelty laws are extremely weak in most states that needs to change. Screw Vick let him work in a animal shelter to earn a living.
 
D L X
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 9:56 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
To allow him back on the field is to send a very bad message, which is that money and fame is all one needs to rise above the law and professional conduct.

No it doesn't. It sends the message that no matter who you are, rich or poor, if you commit a crime, you're going to have to repay your debt to society. Let's not pretend like Vick didn't spend the last two years IN JAIL.

But it also sends the correct message to the public: you must forgive. It is the moral thing to do. This whole idea that has permeated throughout America that if you are once a crook you should lose your whole life to your being a crook is asinine.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
professional athletes are just joes like us

Then what's stopping you from doing it?

Being a professional athlete requires a lot more work than you want to acknowledge. But that's neither here nor there. What is it about being an athlete that says the public can punish you more because you're an athlete?
 
redflyer
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 10:04 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
To allow him back on the field is to send a very bad message, which is that money and fame is all one needs to rise above the law and professional conduct.

He was convicted, tried, jailed, and served his time. I'm not sure how that's rising above the law.

You don't think his money kept him from getting a worse punishment? You don't think his fame (even if it was earned on the field) is giving him another chance at his profession?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
His life is far from over and he will go on to lead a full and productive and, dare I say, money-making life.

Without football impossible, ever heard the guys speak? Shakespeare he ain't!

Well, guess he should've spent a little more time on the books when he was in school. Regardless, that's a pretty weak excuse for letting him back on the field. I think 90% of the population would gladly take whatever wealth he's got left, and most would be able to make a decent living from investing it.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
OK so if a high profile CEO had done the same thing and served his time would you say he should not be allowed back into corporate America and that he should instead join the army to pay his bills?

I absolutely would not endorse any executive being allowed back into the boardroom after a felony conviction. As for the Army, that's quite a noble profession. Given Vick's age, the fact that he's got an education beyond high school, and he's a leader, he could probably get accepted into OCS and have a stellar military career. Taking that route would show true contrition and a desire to give back to society some of the excesses he took from society.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
We only know about the crimes for which he was caught. I'm sure there were plenty of other goings-on that he didn't get caught on and we'll never know about.

Wow! Sounds to me like you have a bigger bone to pick with this guy. Since you're sure he has done other things wrong...

Not at all do I have a bone to pick with the guy. I actually feel sorry for him. He had fame and fortune and nothing but a bright future ahead of him. He's the one that pissed it away. I do, however, have a bone to pick with the NFL, especially if they allow him to play again. As for my belief that he's done other illicit things, that is usually the case when arrogance and hubris are involved in the commission of a crime. What makes you think dog-fighting and cruelty to animals is all he ever did to break the law? He knew his activities were illegal, yet he did them anyway. So what kept him from breaking the law in other ways? I'm not saying I know for sure that he broke other laws; just reflecting that it's probably more than likely he did. And don't forget: when it comes to criminal prosecution, prosecutors usually go for the low-hanging fruit when they try a case. That does not mean no other laws were violated and they didn't have a case.
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deltairlines
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 10:25 pm

The thing that aggrevates me the most about the Vick situation is that he was sent to prison for 2 years or so for having a bunch of dogs fight each other. Yet, a guy can beat a woman and get a slap on the wrist - get off with a fine, some community service and might have to spend a couple of months in the slammer at worst. It's just pathetic to think that the penalty for having dogs fight is more severe than beating a woman.

That being said, I hope Vick comes back. Yes - he should have been punished for dogfighting - it's still disgusting and illegal. Do I think two years in the slammer was a severe overreaction though? You bet. Would I like to see Vick come back to the league and play again? Sure - on the field he was one helluva player to watch.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 11:14 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
OK so if a high profile CEO had done the same thing and served his time would you say he should not be allowed back into corporate America and that he should instead join the army to pay his bills?

A corporation hiring him is a contract between two private entities. But as a consumer, I'd no longer do business with that company, and if I were a stockholder I'd make as much stink as I could.

I don't give my business to companies that do things that violate my beliefs or sensibilities - for example, I refuse to eat at Chic-Fil-A because of their history of cramming religion down their employees' throats.

And I feel the same way about Vick playing in the NFL. Just a few minutes on ESPN the idea of him joining the New England Patriots was floated. I've been a Patriots fan since I was a child, but if they sign Vick I will have to not support them any more. Some things go beyond "paying your debt to society" - he proved he was a psychopathic piece of filth, and a 23 month sentence isn't nearly enough time to prove he's truly changed. That proof will come from actions, not saying "I'm sorry" a few times, or looking contrite - trust has to be earned.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 11:21 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
No, because as far as most are concerned he worked for his money and made a mistake

So Vick's dog fighting is more than just a mistake?

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
professional athletes are just joes like us who by some fluke

NOBODY gets into the NFL by fluke. Weights, drill, plyometrics, book time, video time sacrificing school time, sacrificing socializing time and family time is what gets you there. All of this from a young age for a shot at the big time. The one exception is kickers.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
are biein paid millions to do something which is fun.

Running a company can be fun and can pay millions.... what's your point?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
You don't think his money kept him from getting a worse punishment?

For sure it did and that's the problem for me. Why not fix the justice system rather than bitching out the NFL and Vick? Far few people are accountable to the NFL than are to the broader justice system. Look at Madoff who was "locked" up in his luxury residence till trial. If you fixed the justice system then it would be two birds with one stone. Why stress on the NFL who ultimately are only concerned about putting bums in seats come Sunday?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
You don't think his fame (even if it was earned on the field) is giving him another chance at his profession?

Of course it is but as I've stated above the fame and wealth he achieved were through sacrifice so are you going to be extra harsh on him because he is famous? If so who decides who is famous enough for this additional punishment? You? Me? Simon Cowell and his idiot panel? Again fix the justice system.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
Well, guess he should've spent a little more time on the books when he was in school. Regardless, that's a pretty weak excuse for letting him back on the field. I think 90% of the population would gladly take whatever wealth he's got left, and most would be able to make a decent living from investing it.

Most pro athletes sacrifice book time to make the big leagues. What got him into dogs was a shady poor upbringing so do you think he has the smarts to invest his money? Do you think given the stupid things he's done that he has surrounded himself with good people? Look at his brother for god's sake!

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
As for the Army, that's quite a noble profession. Given Vick's age, the fact that he's got an education beyond high school, and he's a leader, he could probably get accepted into OCS and have a stellar military career.

So if he could reform himself in the army why oh why could he not do the same in the NFL.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
Taking that route would show true contrition and a desire to give back to society some of the excesses he took from society.

He took nothing from society, he took from the Falcons.

YOWza
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 11:35 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
You have no idea how professional sports in the US works if you make this statement. Look at the big money makers. MLB, NBA and NFL. Take the stars and you will see they are far from role models for young kids. If you want to clean up the bad element fine but the quality of play and # of viewers would be cut in half if not more and that will not be allowed to happen.

Look at some of the highest paid and most talented players from the last few years and tell me if you want them being role models.

Manny Ramirez
Raw Lewis
T.O.
Allen Iverson
Dennis Rodman
Kobe Bryant

I know that things aren't exactly peachy in US Sports, but let's face it: Regardless of anything, kids WILL look up to sports stars and consider them a role model, with all the good and bad habits. That's something universal in any sport and trust me, even outside of the US, we also have our fair share of "black sheep" wreaking havoc with their own bad behaviour.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 11:45 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
You don't think his money kept him from getting a worse punishment?

Actually, his money and his fame probably increased his punishment. Of all the people in the conspiracy, he got the biggest punishment, though he was not the biggest offender. He was sentenced to 2 years, when the sentencing guidelines suggested six months to 5 years IIRC, and most first offenders get 1.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
Well, guess he should've spent a little more time on the books when he was in school.

Would you say that to a person that was fired from his airline job for conduct outside his employment? "He should have studied harder so he could do something else if he got convicted and lost his job?"

He studied hard in his profession, there is no doubt. His profession is Football.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
I think 90% of the population would gladly take whatever wealth he's got left

I'm quite certain that everyone on this board has more money than Vick right now. He is bankrupt.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):
But as a consumer, I'd no longer do business with that company, and if I were a stockholder I'd make as much stink as I could.

People always say that, but time after time, they always go back if it's the cheapest, and they always invest if it's a good investment. but then again...

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):
I refuse to eat at Chic-Fil-A because of their history of cramming religion down their employees' throats.

... maybe you're the exception!!!  Wink

Quoting YOWza (Reply 32):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
You don't think his fame (even if it was earned on the field) is giving him another chance at his profession?

Of course it is

I disagree. His fame is what made this so high profile in the first place, and his fame is what is currently keeping him out of the league.

Do you think we'd be scrutinizing some benchwarming schmuck we had never heard of like we do Vick? I guarantee you, there are benchwarming schmucks that have done much worse than Vick in the NFL. In your company. Driving the bus. Maybe even flying your planes.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Wed May 20, 2009 11:56 pm



Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):
I don't give my business to companies that do things that violate my beliefs or sensibilities - for example, I refuse to eat at Chic-Fil-A because of their history of cramming religion down their employees' throats.

That's fair enough the question becomes where does one draw the line...

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):
A corporation hiring him is a contract between two private entities. But as a consumer, I'd no longer do business with that company, and if I were a stockholder I'd make as much stink as I could.



Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):
I've been a Patriots fan since I was a child, but if they sign Vick I will have to not support them any more.

So tell me this would you stop following the NFL altogether?

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
Do you think we'd be scrutinizing some benchwarming schmuck we had never heard of like we do Vick?

No but had that happened and he served his time said benchwarmer would have a very hard time getting back in the league so his fame (a derivative of his ability) is helping him.

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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 12:34 am



Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
professional athletes are just joes like us

Oh, really?!  sarcastic  Ok, then you try out for the NFL (or any professional league for that matter) and see if you can even make the team. If so, you can come back and make that statement. Until then, your statement is absurd!  redflag 

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Being a professional athlete requires a lot more work than you want to acknowledge. But that's neither here nor there. What is it about being an athlete that says the public can punish you more because you're an athlete?

 checkmark  Well said! Beer for DLX!  champagne 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 12:47 am

The dogfighting that Vick was involved with very deeply has many felonous criminals involved in it, including street gang members and leaders, organized criminals as well as heavy money illegal gambling. The NFL is very critical about keeping such persons and illegal gambling away from their players and officials to prevent any possible 'fix' of games to the benefit of illegal gamblers. What if Vick owed a big gambling debt to someone? He could have been 'encouraged' to keep the score down or close as to the spread to benefit illegal gamblers. To me that is the best reason to keep Vick out.

For a second reason, he will be out of the game for over 2 seasons. Things change in that time and there are far better QB's out there than Vick without that lost of involvement of the game.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 2:00 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
To allow him back on the field is to send a very bad message, which is that money and fame is all one needs to rise above the law and professional conduct.

No it doesn't. It sends the message that no matter who you are, rich or poor, if you commit a crime, you're going to have to repay your debt to society. Let's not pretend like Vick didn't spend the last two years IN JAIL.

There's no doubt he's repaid his debt to society for breaking the law in a manner considered to be a felony. But there's also professional consequences to breaking the law. Since this is an airline forum, tell me how many airlines are willing to hire a person who just spent 2 years in jail for a felony? There are other consequences that go beyond the debt he's repaid. As a felon, Vick won't be able to vote for the rest of his life because of his conviction. He cannot purchase or be in possession of a firearm. (I hope others will refrain from commenting on U.S. gun ownership laws and hijacking this thread.) He's paid his debt to society, yet there remain consequences that will follow him the rest of his life.

Most professions will not allow you to practice your trade with a felony conviction. So why should the NFL be any different? By allowing him back, the NFL is saying they value the dollars he brings in far more than his off-field conduct (past or otherwise). Now, we know the NFL is in business to make money, and so are America's corporations. Yet most corporations will not higher a manager or officer with a felony conviction. And people grumble that corporations are greedy???

Quoting YOWza (Reply 32):
the fame and wealth he achieved were through sacrifice so are you going to be extra harsh on him because he is famous?

I am extra harsh on him not because of his wealth (I'm the consummate capitalist), but I am going to be extra harsh on him because of his fame, in particular since the youth in this country often times look up to sports stars as their idols and the kind of people they want to emulate. The NFL knows this, as does any parent.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 32):
What got him into dogs was a shady poor upbringing so do you think he has the smarts to invest his money?

I'm sorry, and no disrespect intended YOWza, but that line just does not fly. We are all hindered with environmental issues in our backgrounds, yet the majority of us grow up to be decent law-abiding citizens. I will, however, agree he may not have the smarts to invest his money, but he's got the money to hire a person who would/could invest it for him. I believe the NFL offers plenty of sources to help their players find something productive to do with those $10's of millions of dollars they are paid.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 32):
So if he could reform himself in the army why oh why could he not do the same in the NFL.

That was a dumb example on my part, because I just realized with a felony conviction the Army would not take him, not even in the enlisted ranks. Gee, too bad considering he's "repaid his debt to society."  Wink

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
I'm quite certain that everyone on this board has more money than Vick right now. He is bankrupt.

One can file bankruptcy and still retain considerable wealth and remain in the lap of luxury.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 14):
Once somebody has paid their debt to society that should be it. Doesn't matter if they stand to lose a 10 million contract or a 6.85/hr job.

And he will be restored to society, free to do almost whatever he wants. There is a difference, however, between paying a criminal penalty, and living with the natural repercussions. It is similar to a significant injury in that it may heal, but scars remain. All I would like to see is these athletes held to a standard worthy of the fame and influence they are entrusted with. No felonies, no steroids, no drug offenses. Nothing the vast majority of the population doesn't comply with every day. I would rather see my favorite team suffer for a few seasons (and as a Green Bay fan I know all about this) and hold out for players who are worth looking up to, rather than excuse every offense for the sake of keeping a strong player.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 4:22 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 33):
but let's face it: Regardless of anything, kids WILL look up to sports stars and consider them a role model

Translation: because parents suck and refuse to be the role model to their kids and raise their kids right, we must punish people who are not actually responsible to those kids.

I'm sorry, but that's a BS position.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 35):
No but had that happened and he served his time said benchwarmer would have a very hard time getting back in the league so his fame (a derivative of his ability) is helping him.

I strongly doubt that. You're putting the cart before the horse. If he hadn't been famous, they wouldn't have even prosecuted him. That's why we have a dog fighting problem: lack of enforcement. This was ENTIRELY about making an example out of him. His fame did him in, just like Martha Stewart. (Who by the way is a felon, and has her own show. Back where she was. WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE?!)

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 37):
What if Vick owed a big gambling debt to someone?

In this country, we don't convict on what-ifs.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
how many airlines are willing to hire a person who just spent 2 years in jail for a felony?

That depends on the felony! Are you prepared to say that an American airline would not hire a qualified ramper because he was convicted of dog fighting and has now served his time? You think there are no ex-felons on the ramp?!

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
As a felon, Vick won't be able to vote for the rest of his life because of his conviction.

False. That's only true in Virginia and Kentucky, and even then only if the guy is not successful petitioning the governor. (At least that's the rule here in Virginia.)

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
He's paid his debt to society, yet there remain consequences that will follow him the rest of his life.

That's contradictory. He's paid his debt, yet he still has debt to pay?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
Most professions will not allow you to practice your trade with a felony conviction.

No offense, but I think you're making that up. What are "most professions?" Again, it depends on the felony. You don't lose your medical license for going 25 mph over the speed limit, which is often a felony.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
but I am going to be extra harsh on him because of his fame, in particular since the youth in this country often times look up to sports stars as their idols

Got it. So, the new rule is, if some kid looks up to you, regardless of whether his parents are derelict in their duty to be the role model in the kid's life, you get an extra harsh sentence if found guilty.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
I'm quite certain that everyone on this board has more money than Vick right now. He is bankrupt.

One can file bankruptcy and still retain considerable wealth and remain in the lap of luxury.

That may be true, but we know that not to be the case with Vick. He has lost everything, and owes about 100 Million to various entities, if I recall correctly. If anything, he needs to be allowed to play again just so he can pay back people he owes.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 6:42 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
That depends on the felony! Are you prepared to say that an American airline would not hire a qualified ramper because he was convicted of dog fighting and has now served his time? You think there are no ex-felons on the ramp?!

I'm sure there may be ex-felons on the ramp, but do their employers know about it? Are you saying an American airline would knowingly hire a person who did time (2 years or more) for a felony, and be able to give them clearance to work in a sterile area? Is that what you're saying???

Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
No offense, but I think you're making that up. What are "most professions?" Again, it depends on the felony. You don't lose your medical license for going 25 mph over the speed limit, which is often a felony.

I'm not making it up. Many professions will not allow you to practice for having a felony conviction. Going 25 mph over the speed limit, while it may be a felony in some jurisdictions, does not rise to the level of what's referred to as a crime of "moral turpitude". Those are the felonies that will diminish one's ability to practice their livelihood in the manner they desire. (I also doubt going 25 mph over the limit would result in jail time of more than a few months, at most. And most felonies are characterized as those crimes that can result in incarceration for more than a year.)

Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
Got it. So, the new rule is, if some kid looks up to you, regardless of whether his parents are derelict in their duty to be the role model in the kid's life, you get an extra harsh sentence if found guilty.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

Got it. So, the new rule is that life is supposed to be fair.  Yeah sure And by the way, if you don't think society watches out for the welfare of kids despite the fact that they may have parents who should watch out for them, then start harping about all kinds of things, such as a minimum driving age; minimum drinking age; movie ratings; etc.

Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
That may be true, but we know that not to be the case with Vick. He has lost everything, and owes about 100 Million to various entities, if I recall correctly. If anything, he needs to be allowed to play again just so he can pay back people he owes.

If he filed BK, much of his debt should have been eliminated. By the way, where is he living these days? Given his destitution, has he moved into that rented double-wide in the trailer park yet?
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 11:10 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Look at some of the highest paid and most talented players from the last few years and tell me if you want them being role models.

That's a pretty selective list.

On the other hand, I have a pretty hard time coming up with somebody who is a good role model.

Which brings up the point that they get their fame due to their ability to play a game at an unbelievably high level, not because they were fine upstanding young citizens.

And that their life is under intense scrutiny, starting in high school (yes, I remember who the star athletes were in my high school decades ago and they did get a lot of scrutiny from us fellow students) and through college into the pros.

Like Mike Vick, most of them end up running out of steam in their 30s or earlier, and have to find something else to do with the rest of their life. Hopefully they can build on their athletic endeavors, but many cannot, and simply go on to do what they would have done if they were not gifted athletes.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 11:56 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
I'm sure there may be ex-felons on the ramp, but do their employers know about it? Are you saying an American airline would knowingly hire a person who did time (2 years or more) for a felony, and be able to give them clearance to work in a sterile area?

Yes. It all depends on the felony, and probably how long ago the felony occurred.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
I'm not making it up. Many professions will not allow you to practice for having a felony conviction.

Well, with that wording, I agree! But just because there are many, we should extend it to all? Why? What does being a felon have to do with someone's ability to play football? It's completely different than say, not allowing someone convicted of embezzlement to work in the finance industry.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
Going 25 mph over the speed limit, while it may be a felony in some jurisdictions, does not rise to the level of what's referred to as a crime of "moral turpitude". Those are the felonies that will diminish one's ability to practice their livelihood in the manner they desire.

Then you should agree with me that it all depends on the felony committed. It should also depend on how related the crime is to the profession. I don't think there are any rampers who have been convicted of smuggling, for instance, and for good reason.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
(I also doubt going 25 mph over the limit would result in jail time of more than a few months, at most. And most felonies are characterized as those crimes that can result in incarceration for more than a year.)

Two things here: first, dog fighting usually results in a few months jail time. They made an example out of Vick. Second, a felony is not limited to a crime that requires a year in prison, but merely one where the punishment could possibly be year in the clink. 25 over can result in a year in jail, even though it usually does not. That potential allows it to be a felony though.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
they get their fame due to their ability to play a game at an unbelievably high level, not because they were fine upstanding young citizens.

Gold star answer!
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 4:48 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Oh, really?! Ok, then you try out for the NFL (or any professional league for that matter) and see if you can even make the team. If so, you can come back and make that statement. Until then, your statement is absurd!

Suggest you re-read my post

Quoting Par13del (Reply 26):
No, because as far as most are concerned he worked for his money and made a mistake, professional athletes are just joes like us who by some fluke are biein paid millions to do something which is fun.

That statement was in response to the question about a CEO, as far as most persons are concerned, other people work for their money, the belief is that athletes are just joe's like us who are being paid millions to do something which is fun.

Based on how professional athletes are treated when something goes worng, I stand by the belief that most who are not true fans but spectators of sports - TV audience - do not respect the job that athletes do, they don't believe that they work hard, practice or sacrifice to get where they are, its why when Jimmy the Greek made his "bred" comment that so many folks went along with him, the establishment canned him not the masses. Remember the Magic Johnson and Larry Bird sayings that Bird worked hard but Magic was a natural athlete.
Take race out of it and its what most non-fans believe, because all they see is whats on tv, not the behind the scene work that is put in to get to that level, it's why there is so much resentment for athletes making millions but none for white collar workers getting the same amount of money.

Its a wrong perception which we all appear to agree on, you just mis-read my post which was in response to a question. Seems as if most responses to my post did the same thing  Smile
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 6:54 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 44):
Suggest you re-read my post

No need to. Your statement is still absurd to the fullest. You cannot compare a professional sports player to the average joe, period.
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 9:22 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 45):
No need to. Your statement is still absurd to the fullest. You cannot compare a professional sports player to the average joe, period.

I don't, but unfortunately, a lot of folks do, see and hear it all the time , and until those flawed assumptions are addressed, pro athletes will always be fighting uphill whenever they fall or make mistakes like the rest of us.
 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 9:53 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 46):
I don't

 redflag  Wait a second... are you changing your stance now?? You just said they are average joes just like us.....

You're now making no sense.  no 
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RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 43):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
I'm sure there may be ex-felons on the ramp, but do their employers know about it? Are you saying an American airline would knowingly hire a person who did time (2 years or more) for a felony, and be able to give them clearance to work in a sterile area?

Yes. It all depends on the felony, and probably how long ago the felony occurred.

I'd like to know which airlines have or continue to knowingly hire people convicted of felonies and who did jail time, and who are allowed to work in sterile areas. I would really, sincerely, appreciate that answer if you can provide it.

Quoting D L X (Reply 43):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
I'm not making it up. Many professions will not allow you to practice for having a felony conviction.

Well, with that wording, I agree! But just because there are many, we should extend it to all? Why? What does being a felon have to do with someone's ability to play football? It's completely different than say, not allowing someone convicted of embezzlement to work in the finance industry.

I think we're going down the wrong path here because I get the impression we're arguing over whether or not Vick CAN or CANNOT return to the field. The NFL certainly has the option and power to decide that issue to whatever answer serves their means and purpose. My personal belief is that he should be permanently barred. While engaging in the felonious crime of dog fighting, in addition to displaying a depraved and inhumanely cruel manner of treating helpless animals (which included torturing and needlessly killing them) has nothing to do with football, it reflects upon the man's character and the fact that he is bereft of any compassion and moral bearing. Those characteristics would usually prevent someone from practicing their profession if their employers were aware of it. All I'm saying is the NFL should do what most employers would do, which is to bar him from his profession.

Quoting D L X (Reply 43):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
Going 25 mph over the speed limit, while it may be a felony in some jurisdictions, does not rise to the level of what's referred to as a crime of "moral turpitude". Those are the felonies that will diminish one's ability to practice their livelihood in the manner they desire.

Then you should agree with me that it all depends on the felony committed. It should also depend on how related the crime is to the profession. I don't think there are any rampers who have been convicted of smuggling, for instance, and for good reason.

Murdering someone has very little to do with loading bags on an airplane, so why shouldn't an airline hire someone who committed 1st degree murder and served 25 years in prison? After all, he's "paid his debt to society".

Quoting D L X (Reply 43):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
(I also doubt going 25 mph over the limit would result in jail time of more than a few months, at most. And most felonies are characterized as those crimes that can result in incarceration for more than a year.)

Two things here: first, dog fighting usually results in a few months jail time. They made an example out of Vick. Second, a felony is not limited to a crime that requires a year in prison, but merely one where the punishment could possibly be year in the clink. 25 over can result in a year in jail, even though it usually does not. That potential allows it to be a felony though.

I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the definition of a felony. And I agree that there are different types of felonies and those types should be taken into consideration. But as I've said, what Vick did goes to the heart of his moral integrity. It shows a depraved and cruel mind. Someone that doesn't mind torturing animals and needlessly killing them for fun and entertainment would not show a lot of compassion in other facets of their lives, both personal and professional. His felony was/is classified as one of moral turpitude, which is to say that while it may have nothing to do with his profession, it reflects someone that cannot be trusted. Case in point: how comfortable would you feel working next to someone if you knew they derived pleasure from making animals suffer and killed them for fun?
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

RE: Vick Coming Out Of Jail - Back To The NFL?

Thu May 21, 2009 10:28 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 48):
I'd like to know which airlines have or continue to knowingly hire people convicted of felonies and who did jail time

Don't know about a regular basis but NWA sure as hell did when they took back convicted felon and DUI flyer Norman Lyle Prouse. Not only did he do jail time but he got to retire in the left seat of a 747. Not bad huh?

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