PHLBOS
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President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 5:32 pm

I am a bit surprised that a thread on this particular new subject wasn't already started.

A couple of key web-articles on the subject matter:
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/05/19/obama_cafe

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...1170&refer=home&sid=aKUXiuTCkyhw

Note: for those that may not be familiar with the CAFE term, it stands for Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

Like him or hate him, Rush Limbaugh sums up the concept fairly accurately here:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...051809/content/01125104.guest.html

Exerpt:
Now, the way this works, the CAFE standards, you have to average the kind of cars every manufacturer makes. So if you're going to make some SUVs that get 14 or 12 you gotta have some smart cars that get 40 or 50, and then it has to average 35 miles per gallon a car by 2016.

Personal take: As if the previous CAFE increase (passed in 2007) wasn't enough of a burden for ALL vehicle manufacturers (and not just the Big 3). While I'm personally not surprised by the President's actions, I am a bit disappointed that the automakers essentially rolled over at the announcement.

To put things in perspective: if one checks out the Fuel Economy Guide http://www.fueleconomy.gov/, one will discover that there is NOT ONE 2009 GAS-POWERED VEHICLE LISTED THAT AVERAGES 39 MPG (the 2016 target number for cars) and there are only 3 hybrids (Prius, Civic Hybrid & 2010 Insight) that meet or exceed that average today. I'm sure many police departments will not be too enthused about this because these standards essentially threaten the very existence of their current fleet vehicles (Chevy Impala, Dodge Charger & the Ford PI).

On the light truck side, only the Escape/Mariner/Tribute Hybrids average over 30 mpg (the 2016 CAFE target for light trucks) today; however towing is NOT recommended for these hybrid versions of the small SUVs.

And for those that think import manufacturer's will not be impacted by this, think again. In one article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer (for some reason, it's only available in print form but not online, otherwise I would've posted the link); one Toyota exec. openly admits that meeting the new light truck standard will be more of a challenge.

Upshoot: If you want a large car or an SUV, it would be wise to buy one sooner ratehr than later.

Note: the largest trucks and SUVs (examples: Chevy Suburban, Ford Expedition, Super Duty trucks, etc.) are heavy enough to be exempt from both EPA ratings and CAFE standards.

[Edited 2009-05-20 10:48:44]
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NIKV69
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 5:40 pm

This will be a disaster. Again the DNC is trying to tell us how to live our lives and how to behave and what to buy. Let the poeple that buy gas guzzlers shoulder the burden. This will hurt dealers and customers. Hopefully Obama will be such a disaster that in three years he will get the boot and we can do away with this. 35.5 MPG is a little tough. I drive a full size car that averages 25 MPG. I think that is fair for the time frame. We are not the kind of country that everyone drives little Fiats. Nor can we be.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 5:50 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):
Now, the way this works, the CAFE standards, you have to average the kind of cars every manufacturer makes. So if you're going to make some SUVs that get 14 or 12 you gotta have some smart cars that get 40 or 50, and then it has to average 35 miles per gallon a car by 2016.

Is it make by make or entire corporation?
CAn Chevrolet make the tiny Euro-style econoboxes while Cadillac and Buick make the nice large luxury sedans that people actually want to buy?

Does this give Mercedes and BMW the freedom to continue to sale gas-guzzler like they've always have here in the United States?
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PHLBOS
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 5:52 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Hopefully Obama will be such a disaster that in three years he will get the boot and we can do away with this.

A sooner approach would be to hand Obama a much more conservative (I mean REAL conservatives not the RINO type) House & Senate in the 2010 elections. It helped keep Clinton at bay during most of the 90s.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
mt99
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 5:53 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Again the DNC is trying to tell us how to live our lives and how to behave

The GOP doesn't seem to have a problem to tell gays how to behave or how to live their lives.. but alas we digress...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
35.5 MPG is a little tough

Don't you have faith in America's engineering and know how?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
. We are not the kind of country that everyone drives little Fiats

You will still have the choice of driving a dump truck if you so wish. However, it will be more efficient. If there are enough of people like you, then i bet that a company will come along selling 40MPG dump trucks. Supply and demand. Maybe you can start one!

If you demand it, someone will build it. Isn't that the basis of capitalism

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
. Hopefully Obama will be such a disaster that in three years

Mr. Limbaugh?
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Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 5:59 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 3):
(I mean REAL conservatives not the RINO type) House & Senate in the 2010 elections.

Not going to happen.
I've never seen the Republicans go up to bat for US auto manufactures or steel.
It was Nixon that initially lowered tarriffs on imports and under Reagan when most US steel plants closed.
Those right-wingers you speak of are too busy legislating their religious views on everyone.
I seriously doubt they care much for the US auto industry one bit. In fact, conservative Republican Richard Shelby (R-Alabama) nailed himself on the cross against the auto bailout and is the mouthpiece for Honda and Mercedes.
Gee, is it just a coincidence that they have plants in Alabama?  scratchchin 
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Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:00 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Don't you have faith in America's engineering and know how?

Japan & Germany can't seem to pull it off either.
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AGM100
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:08 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
We are not the kind of country that everyone drives little Fiats. Nor can we be.

Its trickle down economics as well. It will kill the personal size boat business, ATV's , RV's and anything else you plan to tow.

Now , I am torn about this . In some ways if it drives the market to make a reliable and powerful engine then it is a good thing. Somehow we need to to have a 300+ HP high torque engine that is useful , mass produceable and gets 35mpg. My guess is this will be slow to happen ... most likely they will simply downsize the power and weight of the vehicles..

But all of this is just so typical of the left ... big government circumvents the free market with this type of mandate. I guess it is just bound to happen ... all in the name of saving the world for Al and the gang.
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PHLBOS
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:09 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Is it make by make or entire corporation?
CAn Chevrolet make the tiny Euro-style econoboxes while Cadillac and Buick make the nice large luxury sedans that people actually want to buy?

I believe it's still by individual makes, as it was before; that's why you saw Buick and Oldsmobile, Mercury and even Cadillac launch compacts/subcompacts during the 70s and 80s.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Does this give Mercedes and BMW the freedom to continue to sale gas-guzzler like they've always have here in the United States?

All they'll do is just slap the gas guzzler tax(es) on their window stickers as before and I'm sure their higher sticker prices offset any additional fines imposed.

Technically, the Big 3 could just say "Screw You!" to the Feds (like what BMW and Mecedes have done in the past) and still offer their current vehicles with just the gas guzzler taxes imposed on the stickers (and incorparate any other fines on the window sticker); but since 2 of them are now feeding off the goverment trough, that may not be plausible.

Personally, I wish that Mulally over at Ford would grow some and just say to Obama, "Look, we just launched a hybrid Fusion (41 City/36 Highway) to exceed the original 2020 CAFE goal of 35 with years to spare so we can still sell, trucks and large cars to customers, police agencies, taxi companies, limo companies, etc. that actually need them. Why are you screwing us even further for doing the 'right' thing? Enough is enough!"
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:14 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 8):
Personally, I wish that Mulally over at Ford would grow some and just say to Obama, "Look, we just launched a hybrid Fusion (41 City/36 Highway) to exceed the original 2020 CAFE goal of 35 with years to spare so we can still sell, trucks and large cars to customers, police agencies, taxi companies, limo companies, etc. that actually need them. Why are you screwing us even further for doing the 'right' thing? Enough is enough!"

Ford didn't take any bailout money so he does have more flexibility.
Perhaps GM & Chrysler is taking the money now and then return in about a year and show Washington that their 'goals' are unattainable and that no other country has produced such a product either. Thus laxing the CAFE requirements.
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PHLBOS
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:18 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 3):
(I mean REAL conservatives not the RINO type) House & Senate in the 2010 elections.

Not going to happen.
I've never seen the Republicans go up to bat for US auto manufactures or steel.

Funny, you should that. Look what I came across in yesterday's edition of The Bulletin:

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2...ints/doc4a1248ceb446e741987254.txt

Exerpt to wet your appetite:

As GM announces its plan to import vehicles from China while it closes 16 factories in the U.S., one Michigan Republican is taking to steps to protect American jobs and economic interests.

U.S. Rep. Mike Rogers is drafting legislation that prohibits the use of federal dollars in the restructuring of General Motors and/or Chrysler if such funds would result in jobs being sent overseas. Michigan has been hard hit by the economic downturn and is heavily reliant on the auto industry.


[Edited 2009-05-20 11:45:14]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
NIKV69
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:29 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
The GOP doesn't seem to have a problem to tell gays how to behave or how to live their lives.. but alas we digress...

What does that have to do with this? We are talking about people losing jobs and cars becoming very expensive. Keep the other propaganda for CNN please.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Don't you have faith in America's engineering and know how?

Goes further than that. Not to mention we are an industrial nation. Men make their living with trucks and such and the targets Obama is thinking of is a stretch. I have no doubt we can do it but we are not the country to have little econo boxes all over like Italy or Brazil. It's not practical.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
You will still have the choice of driving a dump truck if you so wish. However, it will be more efficient. If there are enough of people like you, then i bet that a company will come along selling 40MPG dump trucks. Supply and demand. Maybe you can start one!

Yea I am sure that dump truck will have a hamster on a treadmill powering it. Your not even in the ballpark. Which is so scary.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Mr. Limbaugh?

More CNN hate mongering? Come on, the man makes a lot of sense. Just because he opposes your savior doesn't mean his words are any less credible than someone like James Carville.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
mt99
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:37 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Japan & Germany can't seem to pull it off either.

The 2010 Toyota Prius is the first true hybrid to offer 50 miles to the gallon based on extraordinary fuel economy achievements.

http://www.newsoxy.com/hybrid-cars/2010-toyota-prius/article11928.html

the Insight managed a respectable 43.2 combined mpg, landing at the top of EPA estimates of 40 city and 43 highway mpg.

http://reviews.cnet.com/coupe-hatchb...0867_7-33517592.html?tag=mncol;txt

But like many new clean diesels, which meet even California’s tough emissions rules, the Jetta scoffs at its sticker. Hoarding fuel like a mobile Scrooge, I averaged a remarkable 48 m.p.g. over more than 150 miles of freeway driving. That’s the best mileage of any American-market car I’ve tested — gas, diesel or hybrid.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/au...biles/autoreviews/23-vw-jetta.html

Give it a few more year.. and NIKV69 can have his dump truck  Smile
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AGM100
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:38 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
As GM announces its plan to import vehicles from China while it closes 16 factories in the U.S., one Michigan Republican is taking to steps to protect American jobs and economic interests.

G Beck was discussing the possibility that the administration is dealing the auto biz to the Chinese so that the Chinese play nice with the loans we are sucking them off for. Meanwhile China is laughing and readying to decouple from the dollar with Brazil ,,,then they do not care if we buy cars or not. I guess it is all ok as long as we all just world community organize ...

I don't know if this is true ,, but it was being bantered about in a discussion.
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mt99
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:40 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Somehow we need to to have a 300+ HP high torque engine that is useful , mass produceable and gets 35mpg.

Challenge the minds of this great country to do it!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
My guess is this will be slow to happen ... most likely they will simply downsize the power and weight of the vehicles..

If the people want it, someone will build it.. that the basis of the:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
free market



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):

What does that have to do with this? We are talking about people losing jobs and cars becoming very expensive. Keep the other propaganda for CNN please.

Nothing. just exposing some picking and choosing on the part of some...
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Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:42 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Look what I came across in yesterday's edition of The Bulliten:

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2...4.txt

Most Democrats from Michigan would do exactly the same. It's sad what that di$h!t Henry Waxman did to John Dingell. Here is article you may find of interest.
I fully support U.S. Rep. Mike Rogers efforts but I doubt many Republicans will get behind him and he is a shrinking minority in his own party.
Read this article in regards to a "REAL conservative".

http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/11/...-business-in-alabama-not-very.html
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Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:46 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
The 2010 Toyota Prius....

YIKES!
Not a good example.
You may want watch this clip before you boast about hybrids.
They are terrible on our environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooN9INJxxy4

Take 5 minutes out to watch this clip.
Tell me if you still think the hybrid is a model fuel efficient vehicle.
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ual777
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:52 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):

Not going to happen.
I've never seen the Republicans go up to bat for US auto manufactures or steel.
It was Nixon that initially lowered tarriffs on imports and under Reagan when most US steel plants closed.
Those right-wingers you speak of are too busy legislating their religious views on everyone.
I seriously doubt they care much for the US auto industry one bit. In fact, conservative Republican Richard Shelby (R-Alabama) nailed himself on the cross against the auto bailout and is the mouthpiece for Honda and Mercedes.

It is politics. I think we are going to see a more protectionist shift by the republican party in the future. It is the only way they will get more votes.
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Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 6:57 pm



Quoting UAL777 (Reply 17):
I think we are going to see a more protectionist shift by the republican party in the future. It is the only way they will get more votes.

I certianly hope so and even I'd hop on board with that.
Can you imagine Superfly voting for a Republican?  Wow!
If the Republicans focus on protecting the US auto industry like Germany and Japan already does for their auto makers, then yes I will support those Republicans.
It's a shame that the Democrats replaced John Dingle with that lame Hollywood mouthpiece Henry Waxman to chair the House Energy and Commerce Committee.
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AGM100
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:04 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 14):
Challenge the minds of this great country to do it!

I am thinking that a cable and chain towing system will come sooner. A system where one could couple 3 Prius , 2 FITS , and a Volt together to pull your 16ft boat.
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sv7887
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:11 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Somehow we need to to have a 300+ HP high torque engine that is useful , mass produceable and gets 35mpg. My guess is this will be slow to happen ... most likely they will simply downsize the power and weight of the vehicles..

It's definitely doable. We have clean diesel technology that could do it. The Mercedes Bluetec and VW Diesels get great mileage. Even a aluminum Jaguar XJ8 can get around 30-31 MPG on the highway. It's got a 300 HP V-8, with a 6 speed transmission. I know it's not 35 MPG combined, but it's not a bad start.

As for the Prius and other hybrids replacing one problem (imported oil and tailpipe emissions) with another (imported batteries from China, and the environmental damage from battery production) isn't the greatest of solutions. It would make a lot more sense to use technology like Ford's Eco-boost, diesels, and batteries made from more environmentally friendly Lithium ion technology.

The Fusion Hybrid actually got over 1,100 miles on one tank with a MPG of nearly 81. They did use some "hypermiling" techniques, but it's goes to show an American company is capable of top flight engineering.

Source:http://www.motorward.com/2009/04/2010-ford-fusion-hybrid-sets-a-record-81-mpg/

As for those microcars, those things are death traps on American roads.

Source: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/14/i...ds-sub-compacts-fair-poorly-again/

Since the population continues to grow in the USA you aren't going to see mid size and up vehicles suddenly disappear.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:16 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):

More CNN hate mongering? Come on, the man makes a lot of sense. Just because he opposes your savior doesn't mean his words are any less credible than someone like James Carville.

The fact that you care so much about "his opinion" is what's disturbing. People like Limbaugh, Hannity and Keith Olberman are nothing more than ENTERTAINERS.

They get paid money to rile people up.


Anyway, CAFE is really nothing but BS legislation. If they want to improve efficiency, a simple gas tax would be much more effective. But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

[Edited 2009-05-20 12:21:07]
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:23 pm

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
Anyway, CAFE is really nothing but BS legislation.

  
AMEN!!!   

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
If they want to improve efficiency, a simple gas tax would be much more effective. But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

Or just simply let the market decide.

[Edited 2009-05-20 12:23:36]
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AGM100
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:28 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 20):
We have clean diesel technology that could do it.

Agreed , but I don't think the Goreites like that ..yukky diesel thing. Besides this is not about emissions or saving the environment ... its about state ownership of our industry. Polar bears are just he cute front figure.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

It is more efficient , it also takes money out of the economy so that we cant buy cars . So you are correct raising taxes does the trick. No one can afford a car,, ... walla ! problem solved.
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Zentraedi
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:42 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
If they want to improve efficiency, a simple gas tax would be much more effective. But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

Or just simply let the market decide.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work since the market can vote for artificially cheap gas and ignores externalities like smog and pollution.

Say, gas went up to $20 a gal. You'd find overwhelming support for any sort of war that might help lower that price NOW. But hey, if we can just shift the burden to future taxpayers, it's all good, right?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 23):

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

It is more efficient , it also takes money out of the economy so that we cant buy cars . So you are correct raising taxes does the trick. No one can afford a car,, ... walla ! problem solved.

Hyperbole much?

Just means people will buy more efficient cars. No need for a V8 or V6 when it comes to regular commutes.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:42 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
But like many new clean diesels, which meet even California’s tough emissions rules, the Jetta scoffs at its sticker. Hoarding fuel like a mobile Scrooge, I averaged a remarkable 48 m.p.g. over more than 150 miles of freeway driving. That’s the best mileage of any American-market car I’ve tested — gas, diesel or hybrid.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/au....html

Exerpt from your above-link (Bold emphais added):

The Jetta is frugal in the middle years, with a rating of 30 miles a gallon in town and 41 on the highway.

As good as that is (personally, I would prefer a diesel over a hybrid), it still falls short of an average/combined figure of 39 MPG which will be the CAFE figure for cars in 2016; which is where the bone of contention lies.

A person can obtaining 48 mpg in an EPA rated 30/41 Jetta Diesel is irrelevant in the eyes of the EPA and CAFE; (heck, I've known a couple of people that actually got 28 mpg while driving a V8-powered Crown Vic on the highway) it's ultimately the EPA's test ratings (which became more stringent (produce lower but more realistic figures) just a couple of years ago) that govern.
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mt99
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 7:55 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 25):
it still falls short of an average/combined figure of 39 MPG which will be the CAFE figure for cars in 2016;

2016-2009 = 7 years..lots of stuff can get better in 7 years....
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AGM100
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 8:02 pm



Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 24):
Just means people will buy more efficient cars

No ..means we are forced to buy "more efficient cars" big difference.

And gas taxes are going up anyway ... we have no choice Washington has enslaved us to the debt . And that means both parties by the way ...


Hey it may get us all in good shape , we will need it when UHC is in place !

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Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 8:05 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 26):
2016-2009 = 7 years..lots of stuff can get better in 7 years....

Did you watch the clip?
I used to be on the environmentalist bandwagon too until I read the facts and immediately jumped off.
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PHLBOS
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 8:17 pm



Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
Anyway, CAFE is really nothing but BS legislation. If they want to improve efficiency, a simple gas tax would be much more effective.

Funny, that you should mention that.

Recently, ABC's Diane Sawyer interviewed White House Energy and Climate Director, Carol Browner (who was head of the EPA during the Clinton years) on Good Morning America on that very subject. As expected, Browner dodged the question regarding eventually raising the gas tax.

http://abcnews.go.com/search?searchtext=carol%20browner&type=

Mark my words, higher gas taxes will be brought to the table in the so-called Cap-And-Trade legislation.
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MaverickM11
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 8:23 pm



Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 24):
But hey, if we can just shift the burden to future taxpayers, it's all good, right?

You're familiar with our government, yes? That's below all of their email signatures.. Silly
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PHLBOS
Topic Author
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 8:41 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 26):
2016-2009 = 7 years..lots of stuff can get better in 7 years....

More like 4 model years, because the 2009 models are already out and the tooling/retooling for the 2010 (some of which are presently available) and plans for the 2011 models are already in place.

[Edited 2009-05-20 13:43:10]
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Yellowstone
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 9:36 pm

Here's the fuel efficient car I'm waiting for:



It's a Volkswagen prototype, referred to as the 1L, that can travel 100 km on 1L of gasoline. That's 235 miles to the gallon. And the engine's not a hybrid, or electric - just a highly optimized internal combustion engine with an oversized starter to allow it to shut down when the brake pedal is applied, and restart when the accelerator is pressed.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 9:45 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 32):
Here's the fuel efficient car I'm waiting for:

...and a smart guy like yourself with a promising career will certainly be able to afford one when you finish college there in Cambridge.  Wink  bigthumbsup 

One thing is for sure, that car will not be cheap and there wont be an economical version of that for another 30-40 years to come.
Long after the projected deadline of 2016.
Bring back the Concorde
 
max550
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 10:07 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Men make their living with trucks and such and the targets Obama is thinking of is a stretch.

Unless you exempt the vehicles that men make their living with, which is the way it works.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 27):

No ..means we are forced to buy "more efficient cars" big difference.

Almost as bad as when we were forced to buy safer cars. The auto industry fought all of it, seat belts, soft dashboards, airbags, TPMS, just to name a few.

When the government forced people to buy cars with catalytic converters Ford President Lee Iacocca said that if the "EPA does not suspend the catalytic converter rule, it will cause Ford to shut down."

I'm supposed to believe that these new regulations are going to destroy the industry?
 
planespotting
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting Max550 (Reply 34):
I'm supposed to believe that these new regulations are going to destroy the industry?

Duh. Haven't you been listening?  Smile
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VonRichtofen
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 10:25 pm

I wish people would stop touting hybrids as the answer for all of this. Hybrids are a scham. The energy required to manufacture and ship the batteries negates any carbon savings.

The simplest solution to these new C.A.F.E standards are smaller engines for cars and clean diesel technology.

I think even the gasoline version of the upcoming 2010 Ford Fiesta will get near 40mpg. The diesel version pushes close to 60mpg. Even hybrids can't touch diesels.
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Wed May 20, 2009 11:13 pm



Quoting Max550 (Reply 34):
Almost as bad as when we were forced to buy safer cars. The auto industry fought all of it, seat belts, soft dashboards, airbags, TPMS, just to name a few.

Ralph Nader sure made a living blasting the US auto manufactures but keep in mind, German and Japanese cars didn't have any of the above mentioned features until the feds past these laws.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 34):
When the government forced people to buy cars with catalytic converters Ford President Lee Iacocca said that if the "EPA does not suspend the catalytic converter rule, it will cause Ford to shut down."

My Ford certainly runs a lot better since I've removed my catalytic converter.  Smile
Ralph Nader and his like-minded ecofreaks can kiss my tailpipe! Big grin

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 36):
I wish people would stop touting hybrids as the answer for all of this. Hybrids are a scham. The energy required to manufacture and ship the batteries negates any carbon savings.

The simplest solution to these new C.A.F.E standards are smaller engines for cars and clean diesel technology.

I think even the gasoline version of the upcoming 2010 Ford Fiesta will get near 40mpg. The diesel version pushes close to 60mpg. Even hybrids can't touch diesels.

 praise 
Amen!

...and for those so concerned about the environment, keep your old car running or buy a used car. That is one less car in a landfill and you aren't contributing to the using the tons of natural resources to build a new car.
Of course this isn't as fashionable of a political statement.  Yeah sure
Bring back the Concorde
 
max550
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 12:28 am



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 36):
I wish people would stop touting hybrids as the answer for all of this. Hybrids are a scham. The energy required to manufacture and ship the batteries negates any carbon savings.

Agreed, if cars would be lighter with smaller, more efficient engines there would be no need for hybrids.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Ralph Nader sure made a living blasting the US auto manufactures but keep in mind, German and Japanese cars didn't have any of the above mentioned features until the feds past these laws.

Are you saying it's a bad thing that we were the first to introduce those features?
German and Japanese cars don't meet the future CAFE standards right now either.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
My Ford certainly runs a lot better since I've removed my catalytic converter.

Nice. I'm sure it's well worth the $2500 fed fine, $1k state fine and surrendering your car to the police if you get caught in CA.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
...and for those so concerned about the environment, keep your old car running or buy a used car. That is one less car in a landfill and you aren't contributing to the using the tons of natural resources to build a new car.
Of course this isn't as fashionable of a political statement.

Agreed
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 12:38 am



Quoting Max550 (Reply 38):
Are you saying it's a bad thing that we were the first to introduce those features?

When Ralph was running around promoting his books blasting US auto manufactures, he and his followers drove imports in protest as if it was only US car manufactures that were evil.




Quoting Max550 (Reply 38):
German and Japanese cars don't meet the future CAFE standards right now either.

Great, so no manufacture can meet these requirements. Mine as well close all the plants now and horde away as many used cars as possible.  Yeah sure

Quoting Max550 (Reply 38):
Nice. I'm sure it's well worth the $2500 fed fine, $1k state fine and surrendering your car to the police if you get caught in CA.

I forgot to mention that it's over 30 years old and doesn't require a smog check anymore.  wave 
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 12:42 am



Quoting Max550 (Reply 38):
if cars would be lighter with smaller, more efficient engines there would be no need for hybrids.

There is no need for hybrids period.



Now I am sure if you put in a little electric shaver motor in this car, it would exceed these new CAFE standards and please the ecofreaks.
Safety would become an issue however.
Bring back the Concorde
 
max550
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 2:06 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
When Ralph was running around promoting his books blasting US auto manufactures, he and his followers drove imports in protest as if it was only US car manufactures that were evil.

Nobody is saying that only the US manufacturers are evil. They all need to do better. The domestic cars on average get nearly the same mileage as the imports right now, if not better. The only advantages the imports have is their hybrids and the fact that nobody buys their trucks, giving the small cars a far bigger share of the total sales and therefore a higher average fuel economy.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Great, so no manufacture can meet these requirements. Mine as well close all the plants now and horde away as many used cars as possible.

They can't right now, they will be able to after a few years of trying. Look at the gains they've made in just the 2 or 3 years since gas prices went up. Ford has designed and is now selling the EcoBoost engines, 20% efficiency gains in 3 years without removing a pound. Think of all the places there are to save weight and increase efficiency on a car. Look at planes, how much have they increased their efficiency in the past 10-20 years? They are not only more efficient than they were, but are bigger and safer than they were before. I have no reason to believe the manufacturers won't be able to meet the new standards.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
There is no need for hybrids period.

If you're referring to their environmental impact you're correct. If you're referring to the imports profits and their ability to use the hybrid to make people think all their cars get good mileage, then I'd have to disagree with you. The imports need the hybrids to keep up their high-mileage image.
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 2:13 am



Quoting Max550 (Reply 41):
Ford has designed and is now selling the EcoBoost engines, 20% efficiency gains in 3 years without removing a pound.

Of an existing model?
If so, which ones?

The Mustang, Grand Marquis and Town Car doesn't use the new eco-boost engine.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 41):
The imports need the hybrids to keep up their high-mileage image.

...thus should carry a huge carbon credit/indulgences fine since these buyers are the main ones concerned about that stuff.
Import brands that are fraudulently enjoying a "high-mileage image" should be called out on the floor and exposed for being the major polluters that they really are.
Bring back the Concorde
 
max550
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 2:55 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Of an existing model?
If so, which ones?

'10 Flex, '10 Lincoln MKS and MKT, soon to be in the new Taurus SHO (along with the new Taurus, which lost weight as well) and the F-150.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
...thus should carry a huge carbon credit/indulgences fine since these buyers are the main ones concerned about that stuff.

I didn't think you'd be into the whole carbon tax, even going so far as to give them an extra fine. That's a good idea and hopefully we'll see that soon  Smile
Seriously though, I do agree with you that there is no need for hybrids. They were a quick, cheap (to the company) way to give the brand image a boost. The only reason they got so popular is because they were technologies that existed when the companies needed to raise their economy fast. If you look at some of the technologies in the pipeline, very few are sticking with hybrids.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Import brands that are fraudulently enjoying a "high-mileage image" should be called out on the floor and exposed for being the major polluters that they really are.

I agree, there doesn't seem to be anybody doing it though. Chevy has a couple ads recently but I think that's it. The only way they are going to compete and be able to get people in to their stores is to come out with the "new" thing that replaces hybrids. I think you'll be surprised how quickly it can happen.
 
Superfly
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 3:05 am



Quoting Max550 (Reply 43):
'10 Flex, '10 Lincoln MKS and MKT, soon to be in the new Taurus SHO (along with the new Taurus, which lost weight as well) and the F-150.

Oh I already forgot about those newer front-drive variants.  banghead 

Quoting Max550 (Reply 43):
I didn't think you'd be into the whole carbon tax, even going so far as to give them an extra fine.

Actually I was being sarcastic but what the hell, make these fools pay for their carbon credits/indulgences up front.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 43):
the "new" thing that replaces hybrids. I think you'll be surprised how quickly it can happen.

Oh I know it will happen soon. Once they have to replace those batteries along with other parts that will cost and arm & a leg to replace/repair.
That's the expensive part of being 'trendy'.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 3:24 am

Let's be fair - technological advances continue to make cars more efficient. All those power windows, electric seats, airbags, structural safety enhancements weigh a lot - I had a 1980 Mustang years ago that weighed 2300 pounds - the lightest Mustang today weighs 3,356 pounds. Same size car. My old one had a V6 (about 130 hp if I recall) and got about 15 mpg on the highway, the new one has a 210 hp V6 and gets 26 mpg. When you factor in the weight and power, modern engines use less than half the fuel to produce the same power than 30 years ago.

But this 39 average target is a huge, huge leap. People just don't want to drive little Smart Cars in the US. I saw a couple of them today, and they look silly as hell, and downright dangerous sandwiched between two 18-wheelers.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 14):
If the people want it, someone will build it

That's the problem with CAFE - the people DON'T want it - it is a top-down mandate.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
Mark my words, higher gas taxes will be brought to the table in the so-called Cap-And-Trade legislation.

Even with all other things being equal (or as we economists call it, "the great lie") if people actually do start driving around in Smart Cars, reducing the consumption of oil, government will dramatically increase the taxation on gasoline in order to make up for lost tax revenue. You will spend as much money filling your Smart Car as you spend today filling up your Expedition. That's a promise.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
mt99
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 3:41 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 45):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 14):
If the people want it, someone will build it

That's the problem with CAFE - the people DON'T want it - it is a top-down mandate.

Missed the point completely. If there is say 40MPG mandate, and there is enough people that want to have a 500hp expedition, then the American ingenuity will compe up with 40MPG 500hp expediton. That is what this great country does... demand and you will find someone to sell it to you.
Step into my office, baby
 
mt99
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 3:42 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 45):
You will spend as much money filling your Smart Car as you spend today filling up your Expedition.

Would we still be kissing the Saudi's behind? How much is that worth to you?

[Edited 2009-05-20 20:43:08]
Step into my office, baby
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 4:20 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 47):
Would we still be kissing the Saudi's behind? How much is that worth to you?
Yes we will. Why? Because Mexican and Venezuelan oil reserves are nearly run out. Canada is producing nicely but China has been busy buying up future supplies as fast as they can, and paying top dollar for the privilege. The reason that China is backing up Iran and Sudan against the rest of the world is so that they can ensure access to their oil. Meanwhile, oil exploration and drilling in the US has been virtually brought to a complete halt.

So yes, we will still be funding the Saudis as much as today or more, unless we can tell the environmentalists to go jump in a lake and start drilling in the US, and developing our shale reserves. We have 200-300 years worth of oil right here in this country, and we aren't allowed to touch it! That is criminal, IMHO.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 46):
Missed the point completely. If there is say 40MPG mandate, and there is enough people that want to have a 500hp expedition, then the American ingenuity will compe up with 40MPG 500hp expediton. That is what this great country does... demand and you will find someone to sell it to you.
I have great respect for free market competition. But I have even greater respect for the laws of physics. The only way auto companies are going to be able to meet such an aggressive target is to downsize the cars and/or decrease their power. Remember what happened in the 70s and 80s? We went from 400-hp Z-28s to 155-hp Z-28s.

And Chevettes.



        

[Edited 2009-05-20 21:21:33]
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
aerobalance
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RE: President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante

Thu May 21, 2009 4:27 am



Quoting Max550 (Reply 43):
'10 Flex, '10 Lincoln MKS and MKT, soon to be in the new Taurus SHO (along with the new Taurus, which lost weight as well) and the F-150.

If you're calling the Taurus SHO light then we live on different planets, 4,368 lb.! That's heavy!
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=147406

279 lb. heavier than the new rear-drive '10 E550
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=147866

Four door sedans in the future will need to weigh 3,250 lb. to help with the new CAFE standards.

The new CAFE standards can be met, the technology is there, it's all a matter of how much money to pass along to the consumer for that technology...

It will be fun to observe what happens!
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