Falcon84
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Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 4:51 am

From the article I'm about to post:

"'You can't be a Democrat and be a Christian and be a university representative.'"

And now, the short article from CNN.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...sity-bans-college-dems/#more-52973

A private University like this has a right to do this. Every right. But I'd like to ask our conservative bretheren on here: is THIS where you want conservatism to go? Banning those who don't agree with your views.

And how many of you really believe the quote above? I'm a liberal. I'm a Chritian. I am not affilliated with a Church now, but I have a strong faith in Jesus Christ. Is conservatism becoming so extreme that it REALLY believe that a Democrat cannot be a Christian, and cnnont represent a University?

This does not obviously represent the views of all conservatives, that is a given, but it is troubling that this seems to be the path conservatism is taking-one that is purging itself of anything that does not conform to a narrow view on politics, economics and society.

It troubles me, and I truly hope that some conservatives find this apalling as well.
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MattRB
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 4:59 am

I find the irony that this is happening at LIberty University somewhat amusing.


lib·er·ty [ líbbərtee ] (plural lib·er·ties)


noun
Definition:

1. right to choose: the freedom to think or act without being constrained by necessity or force

2. freedom: freedom from captivity or slavery

3. basic right: a political, social, and economic right that belongs to the citizens of a state or to all people ( often used in the plural )
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ShyFlyer
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 5:20 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
But I'd like to ask our conservative bretheren on here: is THIS where you want conservatism to go?

Nope.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And how many of you really believe the quote above?

No, not in the least.
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D L X
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 5:40 am

Bye bye federal student aid at Liberty University!

They should expect a tax audit too. Just like Arizona State.
 
san747
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 7:03 am

I just read about this.

Not surprising, I suppose, but still troubling to hear, even at a place like that. As much as Republicans, anti-gays, fundamentalists and hate-mongers love to use the 1st Amendment to their defense, they also forget that freedom of speech means people who DISAGREE with them have that same freedom as well.

And yes, I know this is a private school and they can do whatever they want, but that's no excuse and it's extremely hypocritical and somewhat ironic given the university's name, as pointed out above.
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UAXDXer
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 7:22 am

Just curious...... why would a liberal want to go to a school such as Liberty U to begin with?
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Falcon84
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 10:50 am



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 5):
Just curious...... why would a liberal want to go to a school such as Liberty U to begin with?

Just curious: why would a conservative want to go to Oberlin College, one of the most liberal schools in the nation? For the education, perhaps? Yet they go there. There is a Republican student group at Oberlin, and I dont' see them being tossed.
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us330
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 11:34 am

Yes, they have every right to do it because they are a private university.
That said, if their goal is to graduate future leaders of the conservative movement and the religious right, they should strongly reconsider. What better way for some of these future leaders to gain experience in debating and arguing with others that have a viewpoint similar to those that they might face in the future in the relatively sheltered environment of their own campus?
It's the perfect opportunity for these kids to take risks and debate in a controlled environment, so they can get some experience before they do it in the real world.
Besides, as often as those who have strong opinions about certain topics end up changing their views when exposed to the opposition, a roughly equal number end up becoming more convinced in the truth behind their opinions when confronted with the opposition.
 
dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 12:06 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It troubles me, and I truly hope that some conservatives find this apalling as well.

As appalling as you find it if I said that all liberals were pro choice which you have repeatedly said you are not.

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 5):
Just curious...... why would a liberal want to go to a school such as Liberty U to begin with?

My question exactly.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Just curious: why would a conservative want to go to Oberlin College, one of the most liberal schools in the nation? For the education, perhaps? Yet

Perhaps because it is a Liberal Arts University? Huge difference between that and Conservative Religious University. Unless of course you are conferring religious status on the Liberal Arts? BTW take a look at the postions of the conservative group at Oberlin, all three of them.....
http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/ocr/positions.html
Not a word about abortion. So maybe it is possible that a politcal party could have more than one type of group in it? Go figure.

In addition the Oberlin group clearly states in their charter that:

Section 2. The CRs acknowledges and adopts the values and principles of Oberlin College as expressed in the Preamble of the Constitution of the Association of Students of Oberlin College, the Oberlin College Student Regulations, Policies, and Procedures Handbook, and the Oberlin Statement of Goals and Principles in the Preface to the Oberlin College Bulletin.

http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/ocr/charter.html

Something that evidently the democrat club did not adhere too if the Liberty University officials are to be believed.

http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=10411963

Liberty officials say the student group did nothing wrong. Their problem lies with the National Democratic Party.

"We just simply will not lend the name or the funds to any club, Democrat, Republican, independent, or non-political, that carries on activities that are counter to the core mission of the University," says Mathew Staver, the Dean of Liberty University School of Law.


In addition the story says that the University is trying to come to terms with the group and that:

LU officials say the College Democrats can still meet on campus, they just can't promote their cause on school property and they won't get any money from the school.

So it's not as if the LU officials are going to sick attack dogs on the group if they try to meet.

I still find it kind of puzzling that if you read the doctrinal and mission statements of LU why you would for a second think that it would lend its name to a goup that organizes under a group that believes in something that is the complete opposite of what the University stands for?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 12:36 pm

Guys, c'mon, this is Jerry Falwell U. It's a bunch of evangelists. Having democrats there would be like inviting Exxon representation at an Earth First! rally.

Personally, I don't care, they can do what they want. I have no use for evangelists, I am pro-choice, and have a lot of other problems with their agenda. I wouldn't want to attend that University, and I am a conservative - why would a liberal democrat want to?
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DocLightning
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 3:40 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I'm a liberal. I'm a Chritian.

No you aren't. Didn't you read the article? You CAN'T be both at once.  Wink

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Guys, c'mon, this is Jerry Falwell U. It's a bunch of evangelists. Having democrats there would be like inviting Exxon representation at an Earth First! rally.

Nice! Very nice! Always have to give props to a good metaphor (simile, even!).  thumbsup 
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UAL747
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 4:00 pm

Interesting....

They are a private institution who can do whatever they want, accept who they please, and dictate what goes on on campus as long as it abides with the law (note, not all discrimination laws apply here).

However, if they believe that democrats and their values are not Christian, then that is completely and utterly wrong. I would probably be about right in saying that 80-85% of people that voted democrat in the last election were Christians. Being a democrat stands for more than just pro-gay marriage and pro-choice. In fact, stating that you are a democrat does not mean that you have to agree with those viewpoints. It seems that since those are hot issues with both parties, they use those issues to combat each other, when in reality, labeling yourself democrat or republican can stand for a wide variety of issues, excluding or including the aforementioned issues.

When I was on Student Senate back in the college days, we were in control of providing funding for student organizations. We determined which groups could exist, which ones couldn't, and which ones were good ideas, but could merge with another existing group because the principles were the same. The Republican and Democratic groups were top tier groups, and integral to the University. While I didn't go to an evangelical university, to exclude these groups excludes freedom of thought and debate. While LU can do whatever it wants, it should realize that advocating for same sex marriage and supporting abortion is NOT a prerequisite to being a part of the Democratic Party. In fact, one could argue that it's fiscal policy that is the main issue between the two parties.

But, if you decide to go there, and you were brought up in the same type of evangelical environment, you should know what you are getting yourself into. I do think, that if they receive federal funding, it should be denied, but I won't get my hopes up as the church has had it's hands around the governments nuts and in it's pocketbooks since the inception of our society. I seriously don't know why the church gets tax exempt status either.

On a side note: Does this University have a medical school? Or have a Pre-Med major? I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have a doctor working on me who was taught creationism. No offense, but I don't think it's beneficial. Same goes for pre-law/law.

UAL
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D L X
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 4:10 pm



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 11):
They are a private institution who can do whatever they want, accept who they please, and dictate what goes on on campus as long as it abides with the law (note, not all discrimination laws apply here).

Yes, they can do this within the First Amendment freedom of association since they are an "expressive association" whose membership is bound by their common trait of evangelical Christianity.

However, just because they have a right to silence members that do things that they feel are against their expression, they do not have a right to federal funding, and will most assuredly lose it after this.

I predict a backtrack within one week.

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 11):
On a side note: Does this University have a medical school? Or have a Pre-Med major? I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have a doctor working on me who was taught creationism. No offense, but I don't think it's beneficial. Same goes for pre-law/law.

They do have a law school. I really hate law school snobbery, but I would be weary of hiring an LU grad to work for me if they are actively restricted from hearing other viewpoints in their education.
 
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 4:46 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 12):

However, just because they have a right to silence members that do things that they feel are against their expression, they do not have a right to federal funding, and will most assuredly lose it after this.

I stated in my previous post that their federal funding, if they receive it should be denied.
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AGM100
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 5:33 pm

This is a huge issue indeed. This argument will only increase over the next years in the USA . As we become more polarized into our separate sides of the the social issues I expect more and more things like this to happen. Sadly .

Liberty does not take federal funds ,, it is a far right Christian college. They are open about there curriculum , they do not promote diversity at the college. It is a college for fundamental Christians , and does not claim to be anything else.

Frankly anyone who would want to go there that does not want this type of education is suspect to me. Its like me going to a Madrasah and expecting to learn about Judaism .

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Is conservatism becoming so extreme that it REALLY believe that a Democrat cannot be a Christian, and cnnont represent a University?

In some conservatives eyes the answer is yes. You can not support abortion , gay marriage , and the ideas of the liberal social agenda and still follow the teaching of the bible. Its like being sorta pregnant in there eyes. Sorry but that is the way they see it. I know , I broke away from a similar group , they did not appreciate me playing in a rock band and , having girlfriends and drinking alcohol . To them you must live the life and uphold the standards of the teachings of Jesus .. as they interpret it.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 5:48 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 14):
In some conservatives eyes the answer is yes. You can not support abortion , gay marriage , and the ideas of the liberal social agenda and still follow the teaching of the bible

Conservatism as a economic/political movement has nothing to do with these guys. Conservatism is described by its name - In the recognition that society is a very delicate balance, that we should conserve the institutions that have been proven to work and be very careful about messing with it without very good reason. It is about the respect of natural law. It has nothing to do with religion.
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dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 6:01 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
However, just because they have a right to silence members that do things that they feel are against their expression,

So you are advocating that despite their mission statement, doctrinal statement, and goals statement, and even though the students elected to be there that University has no say in how or when its corporate logo or brand name is used? Again, from the article I linked too:


http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=10411963

Liberty officials say the student group did nothing wrong. Their problem lies with the National Democratic Party.

"We just simply will not lend the name or the funds to any club, Democrat, Republican, independent, or non-political, that carries on activities that are counter to the core mission of the University," says Mathew Staver, the Dean of Liberty University School of Law.

In addition the story says that the University is trying to come to terms with the group and that:

LU officials say the College Democrats can still meet on campus, they just can't promote their cause on school property and they won't get any money from the school.



So if these students decide to have a beer bong bash and wet t-shirt contest on MTV wearing LU athletic jerseys and t-shirts your position is that they are expressing their right of freedom to associate (which I support) and because of that the University can have no say in what they certainly would consider to be a violation of their mission/goals/doctrinal statements and an infringement of their trade mark?
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Falcon84
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sat May 23, 2009 10:40 pm

Fine, DXing, the Democrats get no money from the school. In turn, the school should get no money from the Federal Government. I think that's very fair.

And, again, while they have the right to do what they did, for any school to blacklist a legitimate group, because they don't like their politics is intellectually dishonest. All it does is make them look like small-minded fools. If that's what they want to look like, more power to them, I guess.
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KSYR
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 1:11 am



Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
Not surprising, I suppose, but still troubling to hear, even at a place like that. As much as Republicans, anti-gays, fundamentalists and hate-mongers love to use the 1st Amendment to their defense, they also forget that freedom of speech means people who DISAGREE with them have that same freedom as well.

Works both ways. Look back to Tom Tancredo's speech at UNC-Chapel Hill a few weeks ago, where crazy liberal protesters threatened Mr. Tancredo, assaulted police officers, threw a brick through a window and forced him to be evacuated for his own safety. A week later, another conservative speaker came to campus to speak and was met with another hostile response. This time, however, university police were prepared and promptly arrested those trying to disrupt the speech.

Intolerance isn't confined to Democrats or Republicans. Both sides share equal blame and have their share of black eyes.
 
dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 4:22 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
And, again, while they have the right to do what they did, for any school to blacklist a legitimate group, because they don't like their politics is intellectually dishonest.

How well do you think a KKK group would be recieved at Fisk or Tuskegee? Think the college elders would be happy to fork over money to a group that represents the ideals of racial purity even though that flies in the face of their mission statements? Would the federal government be within their rights to then deny either university money? Both are private institutions.
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ipodguy7
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 4:27 am

Wow the media is all over banning Liberalism, but when Obama tries to silence conservatives (e.g. Fairness Doctrine with Conservative Radio) and when UK bans conservative talk show hosts, the media seems to be silent. Now, I am a conservative and the PRIVATE college has every right to ban whoever they want, BUT if i was the president of the college, I would not ban democrats from my univeristy. Now thats just my opinion and as far as I know Obama hasn't made it completely illegal to have an opinion (yet).
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AGM100
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 2:47 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Conservatism as a economic/political movement has nothing to do with these guys

Agreed ... however as a fiscon we must understand that the liberal left has essentially grouped us into one category. I myself am less social conservative than I am fiscal conservative , but the two are intertwined now in America.

There is little doubt in my mind that the left has used the social agenda to divide the country and in turn are now attacking fiscon ideas. So they win a election using the social agenda to solidify the base, then essentially attack fiscon ideas. My point is ,, they have grouped themselves into a single "team" and they have also managed to group the conservative side as well.

I believe that there will be a separation within the conservative side over the next years. I believe that the social cons and the fiscons will be divided. This may well make it even harder for the GOP to make a solid return. I guess we have been divided and ...conquered .
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D L X
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 3:09 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
So you are advocating that despite their mission statement, doctrinal statement, and goals statement, and even though the students elected to be there that University has no say in how or when its corporate logo or brand name is used?

HUH?

No, I said the exact opposite. I said they DO have the right to kick the dems off their campus. But exercising that right has consequences. You can't get federal funding at the same time that you discriminate based on religion and political viewpoints.

Quoting DXing (Reply 19):
How well do you think a KKK group would be recieved at Fisk or Tuskegee?

My god. I seriously can't believe you would go there. Are you actually telling me you can't see a difference between the democrat party and the KKK? DXing, I think you've just stepped in it.

Quoting DXing (Reply 19):
Would the federal government be within their rights to then deny either university money? Both are private institutions.

It's not a matter of rights. The federal government does not have "rights," it has powers. No, the federal government would not have the power to remove funding for a school that banned a violent hate group from their school.

Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 20):
Wow the media is all over banning Liberalism, but when Obama tries to silence conservatives (e.g. Fairness Doctrine with Conservative Radio)

 Yeah sure

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...e-house-opposes-fairness-doctrine/

I think that dispatches this crazy counterargument nicely.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
however as a fiscon we must understand that the liberal left has essentially grouped us into one category.

HAH!!! Give me a damn break!

Don't blame liberals, blame NIXON! Blame REAGAN! Blame DUBYA! Blame all the state republican party chairs that made sure that there would be some sort of gay marriage thing on the ballot when Bush was running for reelection, to make sure that Bush would get fundamentalist voters. These were the men (and presumably some women) that insisted on pushing the religious right into the forefront of the republican party. Liberals are just calling you what you want to be called: republican!

I swear, it is becoming the standard republican to blame other people for your faults. You guys have to get out that habit.
 
dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 3:55 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
No, I said the exact opposite. I said they DO have the right to kick the dems off their campus. But exercising that right has consequences. You can't get federal funding at the same time that you discriminate based on religion and political viewpoints.

So your position is that that a private institution has no right to protect its trademark, which is what the University is essentially doing, even when the beliefs behind that trademark are known in advance?

Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
My god. I seriously can't believe you would go there. Are you actually telling me you can't see a difference between the democrat party and the KKK? DXing, I think you've just stepped in it.

Sure, there is a huge difference, but is freedom of association protected or not?

Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
It's not a matter of rights. The federal government does not have "rights," it has powers. No, the federal government would not have the power to remove funding for a school that banned a violent hate group from their school.

I said that the mythical group at Fisk or Tusgekee advocated racial purity, not violence just as the students at LU don't seem to believe in all the democratic party planks. But what you seem to be saying is that those two Universities would be able to protect their trademarks while LU is not.
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D L X
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 4:07 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 23):
So your position is that that a private institution has no right to protect its trademark

DXing, READ what I wrote. The institution absolutely has the right to protect its trademark. It does NOT have the right to federal funding though.

Quoting DXing (Reply 23):
Sure, there is a huge difference, but is freedom of association protected or not?

This isn't a freedom of association issue. And if you had read and comprehended what I've been saying all along, the university has the first amendment right under the freedom of association to freely associate and kick out members that do not adhere to their expression. I've said that in every post I've made on this thread.

What you're not understanding is that the freedom to associate ONLY means that the government cannot break up an association because of its expression. The freedom of association does not in any way confer upon them any additional privileges, such as receiving federal funds.

Quoting DXing (Reply 23):
I said that the mythical group at Fisk or Tusgekee advocated racial purity

Spare me. The KKK is not a "mythical" group.

Quoting DXing (Reply 23):
But what you seem to be saying is that those two Universities would be able to protect their trademarks while LU is not.

If you can't spot the difference, I can't help you.
 
AGM100
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 5:35 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
These were the men (and presumably some women) that insisted on pushing the religious right into the forefront of the republican party

A little of the cart before the horse , but it is true that the republicans have done the same thing. My reply to dreadnaught was from a fiscon standpoint ... a standpoint that sees the liberal democrats willing to join ranks on social and fiscal issues. And the fiscon side who understand that we must somehow get the fiscal part of the message better represented in the GOP without knocking 50% of our base out of the picture.

The Democrats can not really run on fiscal issues , I believe that America is still to the right on the big tax big spend platform. They must collate around the social issues in order to keep the base ... like the GOP must do. Frankly until Americans are really paying attention to fiscal issues .. and they are awake to the continued shrinking of the economy and the growing behemoth of the federal government ... we must just wait . No one knows how it will play out for sure ... but it does not look good for the left wing. My estimation is that it will be a short lived democrat majority .
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dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 5:59 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 24):
If you can't spot the difference, I can't help you.

Evidently not since you are advocating a double standard. One University should be sanctioned for protecting their trademark and stated aims while the others should not.
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D L X
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 6:09 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 26):
One University should be sanctioned for protecting their trademark and stated aims while the others should not.

And I stand by that. It is an idiotic notion that a school banning a violent hate group (the KKK in your example) is remotely similar to a school banning a political party.

Notice that no one has your back on that. If someone wants to help DXing out on this, I hope they step up.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 6:54 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 27):
Notice that no one has your back on that. If someone wants to help DXing out on this, I hope they step up.

Since it's not defensable, no one can. And DXing knows it.
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dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 9:01 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Since it's not defensable, no one can. And DXing knows it.

I know I don't need anyone to back me up to know what is right. LU has every right to protect their brand name and trademark against persons or organisations that would use them in a manner that the University does not agree with. Again,

[/b]LU officials say the College Democrats can still meet on campus, they just can't promote their cause on school property and they won't get any money from the school.[/b]

Which means that they have not been banned or silenced, just that they will no longer receive support from the University. My guess is if they repudiate the abortion plank of the Democratic party and they get re-instated.
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Tugger
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 9:23 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 18):
Works both ways. Look back to Tom Tancredo's speech at UNC-Chapel Hill a few weeks ago, where crazy liberal protesters threatened Mr. Tancredo, assaulted police officers, threw a brick through a window and forced him to be evacuated for his own safety. A week later, another conservative speaker came to campus to speak and was met with another hostile response. This time, however, university police were prepared and promptly arrested those trying to disrupt the speech.

Intolerance isn't confined to Democrats or Republicans. Both sides share equal blame and have their share of black eyes.

I agree that it is disgraceful but again as you noted, the university and local police cracked down on the "protesters" and removed them. This is important.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
I believe that there will be a separation within the conservative side over the next years. I believe that the social cons and the fiscons will be divided. This may well make it even harder for the GOP to make a solid return. I guess we have been divided and ...conquered.

An important thing to remember is that if there is a "splintering" of the Republican's and a truly not morality/social conservative element but just spending then they will pull many people who are currently independent or Democrat to them because these issues of pssion are not longer dividing.

But I can't disagree that has been less of a religious element to the Democrat's message and platform. So they have not had this as a divider and have been able to accept in those that really want to and have only one party to choose for their social agenda.

Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
Don't blame liberals, blame NIXON! Blame REAGAN! Blame DUBYA! Blame all the state republican party chairs that made sure that there would be some sort of gay marriage thing on the ballot when Bush was running for reelection, to make sure that Bush would get fundamentalist voters. These were the men (and presumably some women) that insisted on pushing the religious right into the forefront of the republican party. Liberals are just calling you what you want to be called: republican!

I swear, it is becoming the standard republican to blame other people for your faults. You guys have to get out that habit.

We have met the enemy and he is us.

Quoting D L X (Reply 24):
Quoting DXing (Reply 23):
I said that the mythical group at Fisk or Tusgekee advocated racial purity

Spare me. The KKK is not a "mythical" group.

I believe DX is meaning "a KKK-like" group, it could be any racial superiority group. I agree that the use of the KKK is poor as it is beyond inflammatory as they advocated violence and did kill many people (not just blacks), they used violence to suppress and destroy those who stood against them. They are a hateful group in the most base sense of the term. Basically, are there racial purity groups at any of the mentioned universities and what are the limits to forming any group? (This is my interpretation of what DX was saying and his use of "a KKK group" assuming he meant "KKK like". Again I understand the hue and cry against such a statement.)


For me what I find silly about their response is that the best way for Liberty U. to actually impact the Democratic party would be to have many more conservative religious Christian's part of it. They should foster and encourage Democrats that follow their values. Liberty U. should be looking at a group like this as a chance to have an impact on the people in the party not as an assault on the university's values. But again, if they are applying it evenly (I suspect that there aren't any pro-choice republican groups allowed either for example) then they are simply appropriately applying their values and mission. As has been previously noted, they do not get federal funds (I have not checked and am just taking this at face value) It is their choice and my choice (and anyone's) to not attend it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 9:36 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 30):
I believe DX is meaning "a KKK-like" group, it could be any racial superiority group.

Correct which is why I worded the mythical group as I did, believing in racial purity with no mention of the violence associated with the main body.
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D L X
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 29):
LU has every right to protect their brand name and trademark against persons or organisations that would use them in a manner that the University does not agree with.

NO ONE has argued against that. Not one person. So why do you keep saying that?

Quoting DXing (Reply 31):
Correct which is why I worded the mythical group as I did, believing in racial purity with no mention of the violence associated with the main body.

If you didn't mean KKK, you should not have said KKK.

I don't know any organization that is KKK-like that makes them "okay." It would seem to me that if they are KKK-like, they are just as dispicable as the KKK.

I think you should start from scratch, and try not to fly off the handle this time.
 
dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
I think you should start from scratch, and try not to fly off the handle this time.

Uhh...I'm not the one capping. Talking of starting over...

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
However, just because they have a right to silence members that do things that they feel are against their expression, they do not have a right to federal funding, and will most assuredly lose it after this.

Exactly where is the University silencing them or saying they have the right too? Again..

LU officials say the College Democrats can still meet on campus, they just can't promote their cause on school property and they won't get any money from the school.

Perhaps you'd care to explain where the University is "silencing" them?
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D L X
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Sun May 24, 2009 10:49 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 33):
I'm not the one capping.

I have no idea what that means.

I do know that you have not taken up the challenge to try your analogy again with less inflammatory examples.

Quoting DXing (Reply 33):
Exactly where is the University silencing them or saying they have the right too? Again..

Huh? Your whole counter argument was a straw man based on the idea that I was opposed to the school protecting its trademark, image, and the like, which I denied each time you said it. Are you changing streams now? Or are you going to accept that you agree with what I wrote about the school's rights?

Regardless of whether Liberty actually, constructively, or hinted at silencing Democrats or not, they CAN silence them, which means they can do anything less than that as well. So, what's your (new) argument?
 
san747
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Mon May 25, 2009 1:10 am



Quoting KSYR (Reply 18):

Intolerance isn't confined to Democrats or Republicans. Both sides share equal blame and have their share of black eyes.

For the record, I absolutely agree. Human nature is human nature, no matter what the political preference.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
dxing
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Mon May 25, 2009 1:51 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
Regardless of whether Liberty actually, constructively, or hinted at silencing Democrats or not, they CAN silence them, which means they can do anything less than that as well. So, what's your (new) argument?

Your argument is, as I understand it:

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
Yes, they can do this within the First Amendment freedom of association since they are an "expressive association" whose membership is bound by their common trait of evangelical Christianity.

However, just because they have a right to silence members that do things that they feel are against their expression, they do not have a right to federal funding, and will most assuredly lose it after this.

My disagreement with that argument is that one, the students are not being silenced, and two the University has the absolute right to protect its trademark and mission/goal/doctrinal statements which would be a big reason a majority of students are attending LU. In so much their federal funding should not be at risk. The students, according to the article, can meet on campus but will not be sponsored financially or given any support (corporate) backing from LU. I would predict that the University will tell the students that if they renounce the abortion platform of the democratic party which is surely the sticking point here, they can be re-instated in full. It is a freedom of association issue and you have set up a double standard in regards to that in this thread.

Time to go see Terminator Salvation and head down to SoBe for the rest of the long weekend. Mine ends Wednesday. On to the beach!  cool 
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IADCA
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Mon May 25, 2009 3:59 am

This "incident," if it must be called that, is interesting from a couple fronts. There's a legal aspect, which I'd prefer to stay out of as much as possible, but also regional and normative aspects. First, a brief comment on the legal side:

Quoting DXing (Reply 36):
My disagreement with that argument is that one, the students are not being silenced, and two the University has the absolute right to protect its trademark and mission/goal/doctrinal statements which would be a big reason a majority of students are attending LU. In so much their federal funding should not be at risk.

I'll discuss why I actually agree with the general point of this later. That said, as currently written, the federal tax code doesn't necessarily agree. The IRS has been hesitant to try to pull tax exemptions based on violations of 501 and 170 status (especially given the hullabaloo that happened when they tried to pull them from Bob Jones University and the Church of Scientology), but there is a basis to do it here. This is pretty close to the line for engaging in political activity, and the argument is really pretty simple. Whether the IRS would care to stir the pot like that is another matter, but regardless, intellectual property laws don't trump the tax code. Unfortunately, just about nothing outside the Constitution trumps the tax code.

Now, on to the side that fortunately has nothing to do with taxes:

Unlike what I assume to be the vast majority of people on this board, I've actually had numerous encounters with LU students. I find them generally to have tremendously sheltered views of the world, and many of them are shocked when they exit that environment and enter general society. That said, I think they should have the right to choose such an environment if that's what they really want. College is, in large part, about discovering oneself, and while I don't think it's a wise move, if one really wants to limit oneself to a very narrow range, one should have that right as well.

If you really want to wear long pants all the time, not be able to drink or date, and be required to pray, then that's well and good for you. I think you may be wrong and perhaps even slightly crazy, but that's your choice too. I think there's a legitimate interest in promoting intellectual diversity, and there's a corollary argument that it's very difficult to get a true religious fundamentalist experience in an environment that's not free of dissenting views. Since baseline governmental policies tend to make it difficult for such an "educational" environment to develop its unique products in the same localities as mainstream students, I have no reason to see why we shouldn't give federal funding to such places, provided the students are there by choice. It's in the public interest to promote a full range of opportunities, and though I believe true education is best served by an exposure to a large number of different viewpoints, I also think that if you want to get a college degree at an institution that offers legitimate coursework under the umbrella of a sheltered environment that is undoubtedly more comfortable to many of its students than many alternatives (a description which almost certainly includes LU), you should be able to do it. If that includes a school which is so scared of alternate viewpoints or of damage to its reputation that it's afraid to fund an organization belonging to an opposite political party (one whose views the public knows very well don't represent those of the University), then so be it.

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
They do have a law school. I really hate law school snobbery, but I would be weary of hiring an LU grad to work for me if they are actively restricted from hearing other viewpoints in their education.

Same, and same. Having experience with LU folks from outside the law school as well, I'd actually be hesitant to hire them to work in just about any environment. It's not a competence issue. Rather, it's that I've found them not only intolerant of opposing viewpoints, but totally unable to cope with their mere existence. That tends not to work well in most workplaces.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Liberty U. Bans College Democrats

Mon May 25, 2009 5:39 am



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 5):
Just curious...... why would a liberal want to go to a school such as Liberty U to begin with?

Actually, why would ANYONE want to go there? The only accreditation that LU has is SCAS, which isn't exactly considered a valid accreditation by most employers.

Their law school has provisional accreditation by the ABA, though.

Quoting DXing (Reply 36):
In so much their federal funding should not be at risk.

D L X, I'm afraid DXing is correct on this one, although not for the reasons he thinks he is.

LU's federal funding is not at risk because the university receives no federal funds.
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