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Aaron747
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GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 12:09 am

This has been very interesting to watch, to say the least, as Powell and Cheney, longtime collaborators in government, have gone after each other in the media of late.

Our beloved ex-VP questioned Powell's Republican credentials last week and has fueled comments again showing the clear division between the moderate and right-wing ends of the party. Is there any hope for Republican teamwork at this point? President Bush has been gracious enough to stay mum on the issue, which is another testament to his character, but it's entirely unsurprising that Cheney can't help lambasting anyone with anything negative to say about anything he laid hands on.

Newt Gingrich somewhat came to Powell's aid, saying the following:

I don't want to pick a fight with Dick Cheney, but the fact is, the Republican party has to be a broad party that appeals across the country...Republicans are going to be very foolish if thy run around deciding that they're going to see how much they can purge us down to the smallest possible space.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22902.html

Karl Rove also added that since neither Cheney or Powell are running for anything, this whole thing amounts to another "false debate". While I don't agree with him on that, I very much agree with his last statement that "anyone who says they are Republican is a Republican".

http://www.politico.com/singletitlev...bcpid=1155201977&bctid=24137058001

That would seem to fly in the face of those who wantonly label those they disagree with as RINOs any chance they get. I still don't understand why so many insist on using such a debasing and derogatory term for fellow party members.
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Falcon84
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 1:02 am

Well, it seems that, right now, Rove and Newt are a minority when they say such thing, because the mindset right now seems to be "Purge, baby purge!". Until the GOP gets over that mindset, they will continue to have trouble simply putting out a concise message, until the purge ends.
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N867DA
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 1:12 am

Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 1:27 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
I very much agree with his last statement that "anyone who says they are Republican is a Republican".

I disagree. John McCain was a moderate Republican - to the point that he almost joined the Democratic Party in the past. Obama campaigned as as an extreme liberal, on both social and economic issues. Powell endorsed, campaigned for and voted for Obama, in spite of Obama having not the slightest shred of a Republican agenda. For Powell to say he is a Republican is just stupid - he's a Democrat. Nothing wrong with that, but that's what he is.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 1:28 am



Quoting N867DA (Reply 2):
Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.

That'll never happen. I just don't get why the entire party is afraid of Cheney. Just tell the guy to shut up already and put all this to rest.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 1:50 am

Democrats would be delighted to welcome Colin Powell into the party. There is plenty of room for General Powell and his moderate, "think for yourself" approach.

Democrats are also delighted for Cheney and Rush to guide the future of the Republicans. In fact the DNC is probably the RNC (under Rush's supervision) kicks out all who are not die hard conservatives.

On the day before Memorial Day this old Vietnam Vet has no hesitation in saying that the only one of the three that I would serve or follow is General Powell.

Cheney, for me was a disaster in his efforts for the Iraq War.

Rush? Didn't he get out of the draft because of a pimple on his ass?
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 2:00 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
While I don't agree with him on that, I very much agree with his last statement that "anyone who says they are Republican is a Republican".

Gotta disagree with you here. The party should have some standards. Claiming a title or label for yourself doesn't necessarily make it true. I would like to see the Republican party come out with a clear, concise statement of principles, and a plan as to how they are going to show people that they are right.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
the Republican party has to be a broad party that appeals across the country...

No, it doesn't. It just has to be demonstrably correct in word and deed.
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Falcon84
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 2:46 am



Quoting N867DA (Reply 2):
Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.

You're assuming most people think like the fundamentalist right, and they don't. Most may agree more with the fiscally conservative/more socially moderate wing of the party, not the fundies. So if they GOP wants to go further to the right, they'll only take themesleves into obscurity.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
the Republican party has to be a broad party that appeals across the country...

No, it doesn't.

Actually, they do. More so than what we see in the purge that is currently going on. A party that whittles it down to it's hard-core, uncompromising-on-anything base, will not win elections, let alone function as a viable alternative.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 2:51 am

This is becoming a real mud fest by Cheney and Powell. I despise Cheney but I have problems with Powell not speaking out sooner about the post-9/11 actions as to alleged terrorists including remanding to 3rd party countries to do the dirty work including torture and death of terror suspects. His hands are dirty too.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):
I would like to see the Republican party come out with a clear, concise statement of principles, and a plan as to how they are going to show people that they are right

Instead of bashing each other, indeed Republics need to recall what Gingrich and the people around him then did in 1994 - the 'Contract with America', a simple outline of basic legisgative goals and policy of the Republican party. While they didn't accomplish all their goals, it did give them direction on key issues. I am a loyal Democrat but one has to admit is worked to get the Republican party together for many years, until the 2nd GWB term.

Second, Republicans must pour money and support in off-year state election canidates, like for Governors like in New Jersey on a cut taxes, cut spending on the poor, cut state workers, their pay and benefits platform (except for cops, prisons). The middle and upper classes that vote this year on the state level will be strongly be for such a platform and vote for any Republican who takes such stands.

Third they must get Chenney to STFU - he keeps reminding the public, especially independents, of the worst policies of GWB's administration
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 3:02 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I disagree. John McCain was a moderate Republican - to the point that he almost joined the Democratic Party in the past. Obama campaigned as as an extreme liberal, on both social and economic issues. Powell endorsed, campaigned for and voted for Obama, in spite of Obama having not the slightest shred of a Republican agenda. For Powell to say he is a Republican is just stupid - he's a Democrat. Nothing wrong with that, but that's what he is.

I'd have to agree. I could understand if Powell endorsed Obama and then realized the error of his ways once Obama's far-left agenda started taking shape. But there are some "conservatives" (such as Christopher Buckley, Andrew Sullivan, and Powell) who swear to this day that Obama is like them - a conservative.

Which I suppose makes Joseph Stalin a moderate? Obama has simultaneously taken over segments of the car industry, the banking industry, the car dealership industry, the insurance industry, and soon to be the health care industry. Likewise he has proposed regulating the pay of ALL finance executives, not just those receiving TARP money. He's added more to the deficit in 4 months than all previous Presidents COMBINED. I've yet to see one instance where he considered federalism to be anything other than a bothersome idea. If he's a "conservative", then I'm right-handed.

As for Powell suggesting Americans want bigger government and higher taxes these days, none other than Rush Limbaugh was right and Powell was wrong. How do we know this? California, not exactly a ruby red state, just voted overwhelmingly against such tax increases and government expansion just last week. The only proposal that Californians did approve was the one preventing government bureaucrats from voting themselves a raise when the state was in a deficit (touche California!)

I don't want to "purge" (I hate the word frankly) Powell and have no interest in doing so. But I do find it odd that he insists he's a Republican when he doesn't seem to support any of its founding principles any longer - ie limited government, strong national defense, federalism and free enterprise. I suppose that's for him to figure out, but I know the GOP isn't going to abandon those core principles in order to win him over.

Not to mention, as I already pointed out, Colin may be a national hero but he's out of touch not only with the GOP but with the country as a whole, as California just overwhelmingly demonstrated. We did not turn into a socialist country overnight, despite the beliefs of some of Obama's more sycophantic supporters.

I'll always have utmost respect for Colin Powell, and he's a true hero if there ever was one, but he's wrong on this issue of the GOP needing to change to meet his expectations. It's actually the other way around, as California just showed.
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 3:04 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Instead of bashing each other, indeed Republics need to recall what Gingrich and the people around him then did in 1994 - the 'Contract with America', a simple outline of basic legisgative goals and policy of the Republican party. While they didn't accomplish all their goals, it did give them direction on key issues. I am a loyal Democrat but one has to admit is worked to get the Republican party together for many years, until the 2nd GWB term.

Second, Republicans must pour money and support in off-year state election canidates, like for Governors like in New Jersey on a cut taxes, cut spending on the poor, cut state workers, their pay and benefits platform (except for cops, prisons). The middle and upper classes that vote this year on the state level will be strongly be for such a platform and vote for any Republican who takes such stands.

Third they must get Chenney to STFU - he keeps reminding the public, especially independents, of the worst policies of GWB's administration

 checkmark  Pretty much agree with all of this.
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 3:23 am

Now British banks are threatening to cease serving US clients because of Obama's tax and spend policies:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...revolt-against-Obama-tax-plan.html

"The decision, which would make it hard for Americans in London to open bank accounts and trade shares, is being discussed by executives at Britain's banks and brokers who say it could become too expensive to service American clients. The proposals, which were unveiled as part of the president's first budget, are designed to clamp-down on American tax evaders abroad. However bank bosses say they

are being asked to take on the task of collecting American taxes at a cost and legal liability that are inexpedient.

Andy Thompson of Association of Private Client Investment Managers and Stockbrokers (APCIMS) said: "The cost and administration of the US tax regime is causing UK investment firms to consider disinvesting in US shares on behalf of their clients. This is not right and emphasises that the administration of a tax regime on a global scale without any flexibility damages the very economy it is trying to protect."

One executive at a top UK bank who didn't want to be named for fear of angering the IRS said: "It's just about manageable under the current system - and that's because we're big. The danger to us is suddenly being hauled over the coals by the IRS for a client that hasn't paid proper taxes. The audit costs will soar. We'll have to pay it but I know plenty of smaller players won't."



Just more proof (as if any were needed) that Obama is no conservative. Hell, let's stop pretending he's a moderate. He's the most far-Left President we've ever had in America, by far. FDR looks positively moderate by comparison.

When you're pissing off America's closest ally because of your decisions, the problem isn't them, it's you. Powell referenced Jack Kemp as a conservative he liked. Well I liked Jack Kemp a lot and respected him a lot too. Jack Kemp wouldn't even pretend that Obama was a moderate, let alone call him a conservative.

I do understand Powell's comments though when put in proper context. He's trying to justify his vote for Obama from a right-of-center viewpoint, as are people like Christopher Buckley and Andrew Sullivan. The logic is fairly tortured and the examples of Obama's "conservative" tendencies are so laughable, it's sad they even try.

But make no mistake about it, they ARE trying.
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 3:37 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Actually, they do.

It is a matter of being right later verses popular now. Show people that you have the right ideas and will act on them and you will have a far more loyal, durable following than the flashy poll-chasing whores. I am trying to look beyond the next election and see the next 5 or 10.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 5:45 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
Show people that you have the right ideas and will act on them and you will have a far more loyal, durable following than the flashy poll-chasing whores. I am trying to look beyond the next election and see the next 5 or 10.

That's a fair comment, and with regard to economic policy, will certainly play out in the GOP's favor. Obama is clearly in the wrong on most policies dealing with finance, taxation and rampant federalism and sooner or later even those that voted for him will know it. California voters and the mess they've endured over the last 25 years are proof positive of that.

However, the Cheney-brand foreign policy of expensive wars without meaning and the Tony Perkins-brand of Christian morality being best for all Americans regardless of how diverse the country becomes are not compatible with what the future of the country looks like. A sound conservative economic policy is a must, and a shift toward the middle on social issues is the only way to get Democrats and independents to come along when the time comes. Fail to do the latter and any long-term approach for the GOP is meaningless.

Personally, I hope both parties fail to retain their viability in 10 years' time.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting N867DA (Reply 2):
Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):

It is a matter of being right later verses popular now. Show people that you have the right ideas and will act on them and you will have a far more loyal, durable following than the flashy poll-chasing whores. I am trying to look beyond the next election and see the next 5 or 10.

Yes, but the right way is not to simply ignore the economy, start wars to show that we're "Amurrica" and beat people over the head with Bibles.

GOP needs to get off that horse first.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 4:06 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

While I meant it to be sarcasm, I think there are prominent people in the party who'd take it literally. Dick Cheney seems like one of them.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 4:08 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
There is plenty of room for General Powell and his moderate, "think for yourself" approach.

Now THAT is sarcasm...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Yes, but the right way is not to simply ignore the economy, start wars to show that we're "Amurrica" and beat people over the head with Bibles.

And if you thnk any of that is what we are about, you are simply wrong.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 4:19 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
and a shift toward the middle on social issues is the only way to get Democrats and independents to come along when the time comes.

A shift towards the middle of what? The middle of San Francisco or Omaha? Of the Southern Baptists or Universalist Unitarians? This "middle" you speak of is a constantly moving target. Either you have principles that you are trying to win people to, or you are chasing popular opinion. Your economic policies must also be consistent with your social policies, otherwise both come off as phony. A person's priorities are most clearly demonstrated by where they spend their money. The same goes for societies.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 5:07 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
And if you thnk any of that is what we are about, you are simply wrong.

So what IS the Republican Party about? They're not about conservatism, I'll tell you that. They preach fiscal responsibility while powerless and raid the coffers (although not like Democrats) when they hold the baton.

I've read some of your posts and I understand your general economic message, but there really isn't a party for them. Or should I say, there isn't a party that takes action on those words.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 6:48 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 11):
One executive at a top UK bank who didn't want to be named for fear of angering the IRS said: "It's just about manageable under the current system - and that's because we're big. The danger to us is suddenly being hauled over the coals by the IRS for a client that hasn't paid proper taxes. The audit costs will soar. We'll have to pay it but I know plenty of smaller players won't."

That's funny, the EU has been pushing it's FTRA agenda for off shore havens to do exactly that for them, what goes around, comes around.

The Republican Party has certainely lost its way, the core message of smaller government and taxes was lost somehwere along with the massive funds diverted to "cronies" via government spending over the last 8 years. What is interesting is how much influence people like Newt has lost in the grand scheme of things.

I think the blood letting will have to go on at least through the next election cycle, the voter reaction will let them know whether they are on the right track or not. A lot of American's are sceptical of the massive spending and government ownership of private business that is currently taking place, but when they look to the other party for guidance what exactly do they see, how many republican governors have led their states into refusing pork barrel federal spending?
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):

And if you thnk any of that is what we are about, you are simply wrong.

Dreadnought, I never thought that's what YOU were about. You and I agree on a lot of things, in spite of our fierce disagreements. I have never known you to consider hate, intolerance, or violence to be a solution to our country's problems.

However, GWB and his pals sure did.

We may disagree on economic policy and we may disagree on points of the Geneva Convention, but you and I seem to be able to agree to disagree.

YOU are the sort of Republican who needs to stand up against this horsedung. Because pretty soon, there won't be room for you in the GOP, either.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Mon May 25, 2009 9:52 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Now THAT is sarcasm...

Actually - no.

Will Rogers said it best when he said that he didn't belong to an organized political party - that he was a Democrat.


Now when people like Powell give up on the Republican Part then both the conservatives and Democrats will be celebrating. I guess you could call that the best of both worlds.
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 12:24 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
Either you have principles that you are trying to win people to

That's my point though - the principles shared by the majority of people in what future America looks like are going to be significantly different than what the FRC and others would like the GOP to be pushing for. That can't continue or the party will continue to dwindle with time.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 1:13 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
That can't continue or the party will continue to dwindle with time.

I would rather that be the case then. A party that will abandon one set of principles in search of popularity will abandon any set of principles. That is not leadership, it is merely weathervaning.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 1:38 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):

I would rather that be the case then. A party that will abandon one set of principles in search of popularity will abandon any set of principles. That is not leadership, it is merely weathervaning.

Political pragmatism demands looking for a "middle" whatever it is. You were correct previously in that the middle is a nebulous thing always moving this way or that - but only insofar as society is also moving one way or another. For the GOP or any party to remain relevant, they need to allow for things from the middle while also injecting their principles when and where practical.

Once the dust clears from Obama's cloud of celebrity, it will be difficult for anyone going forward to get elected, much less govern, from any rigid set of principles. America will no longer support such thinking - we are simply too diverse now.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 2:08 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
Either you have principles that you are trying to win people to, or you are chasing popular opinion

Principles are not a bad thing, but bad principles are a bad thing.

A party platform built on upholding discrimination, rising to power on the backs of those less fortunate than you, and invading small countries just to show how strong you are doesn't belie very good principles.

There are a lot of conservatives out there who are decent, good people with good principles. They're just conservative.

Unfortunately, the GOP doesn't seem to reflect that at this point in time. At this point in time the GOP seems to be full of a bunch of selish, hawkish hatemongers who would like to use the ideals of Jesus Christ (the ultimate social liberal) to justify their behavior.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 2:40 am



Quoting N867DA (Reply 18):
So what IS the Republican Party about? They're not about conservatism, I'll tell you that. They preach fiscal responsibility while powerless and raid the coffers (although not like Democrats) when they hold the baton.

I've read some of your posts and I understand your general economic message, but there really isn't a party for them. Or should I say, there isn't a party that takes action on those words.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
YOU are the sort of Republican who needs to stand up against this horsedung. Because pretty soon, there won't be room for you in the GOP, either.

No question - our politicians in the Republican Party have betrayed our traditionalist party platform, most especially those of limited government in accordance with the Constitution. If we are to revitalize the Republican Party, those politicians need to be replaced en masse in the next primaries.

This is why people like me say that Powell is not a Republican, and that conservatism DOES have a future. Powell said that "the American people want more government services and are willing to pay more in taxes". Well, the recent vote in California (certainly not a hotbed of conservatism) showed him to be wrong. People have had enough of out-of-control government. In that statement, Powell shows his disagreement with the most basic of Republican values.

He also says that Republicans should be more inclusive. Just because Republicans don't make it a policy to target various groups and promise each of them special favors does not make us less inclusive. The Democratic policy (which has been very effective, I might add) has basically been "divide and conquer". Gay vs. traditionalist. Union vs investors. poor vs wealthy, illegal immigrant vs legal immigrant, and so on. They chose whichever side appears to be the most organized and can offer a solid block of votes. Republicans have historically tried to avoid such a cynical strategy and want to treat everyone the same - by nature more inclusive than the Democrats. Black, white, gay, straight, laboror or manager, we don't care - Republicans want to treat everyone the same - that means no special favors.

So I reject Powell's comments that we should do the same as the Democrats, that we should find minority groups and find some way to attract (read: buy) their votes.

So when Powell says that Republicans must be more like Democrats to succeed, of course the democrats will be having orgasms over it. If the Republicans follow Powell's advice, than the Republicans will be nothing more than Democrat-Lite, and the democratic agenda of massive growth of centralized government growth will be unhindered. So of course the main stream media will give him a lot of air time - not because they want Republicans to succeed, but to ensure Democrat victory long term by eliminating a real opposition.

If he believes what he says, Powell is a Democrat, and he should stop pretending to be anything else.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Dreadnought, I never thought that's what YOU were about. You and I agree on a lot of things, in spite of our fierce disagreements. I have never known you to consider hate, intolerance, or violence to be a solution to our country's problems.

However, GWB and his pals sure did.

I appreciate your comments. But I disagree with your characterization of GWB. For all his faults (neoconservatism, for one), he was most certainly not a hater - I see more resentment and hatred in Obama than I ever saw in GWB.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Now when people like Powell give up on the Republican Part then both the conservatives and Democrats will be celebrating. I guess you could call that the best of both worlds.

When people admit to what they are, yes.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 2:49 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):

I appreciate your comments. But I disagree with your characterization of GWB. For all his faults (neoconservatism, for one), he was most certainly not a hater - I see more resentment and hatred in Obama than I ever saw in GWB.

Actually, to tell the truth, I have to agree with you. He's on record as telling a few guys from the Christian Right that he was drawing the line at kicking gays. He wasn't going to do it. I have to respect that decision of his.

However, intolerance and violence WERE his modus operandi. There was no room for dissent in the GWB White House. You were with him or against him. And his solution to our problems? To go and bomb a bunch of brown-skinned people who had nothing to do with our problems. White House documents make it obvious that he was planning the Iraq War long before 9/11.

I wonder how you find Obama to be so full of hate, though. I haven't seen any of that from him.
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 2:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The Democratic policy (which has been very effective, I might add) has basically been "divide and conquer". Gay vs. traditionalist. Union vs investors. poor vs wealthy, illegal immigrant vs legal immigrant, and so on.

"We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation."

Guess who said that...

The ultimate divisioln: With us or against us..

[Edited 2009-05-25 19:58:06]
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Dreadnought
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 3:32 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
"We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation."

Guess who said that...

A perfect example of why trying to appeal to one group is a mistake - and pointless to boot, when there is no such thing as the National Association of Small Town Dwellers.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
The ultimate divisioln: With us or against us..

Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 3:45 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
it will be difficult for anyone going forward to get elected, much less govern, from any rigid set of principles. America will no longer support such thinking - we are simply too diverse now.

But if one has no fixed set of principles, how can one govern effectively? One of the most basic requirement to lead well is to have a set of principles that you will not compromise. A set of standards that everyone, leadership included, is held to no matter how popular the principle is at that time. Allowing popular opinion to drive the beliefs and values of a party is an easy way to appeal to the lowest common denominator, but it does not get you any further than that. It is the barest step above mob rule.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Principles are not a bad thing, but bad principles are a bad thing.

But better than none at all
Proud OOTSK member
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:24 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Political pragmatism demands looking for a "middle" whatever it is. You were correct previously in that the middle is a nebulous thing always moving this way or that - but only insofar as society is also moving one way or another. For the GOP or any party to remain relevant, they need to allow for things from the middle while also injecting their principles when and where practical.

Once the dust clears from Obama's cloud of celebrity, it will be difficult for anyone going forward to get elected, much less govern, from any rigid set of principles. America will no longer support such thinking - we are simply too diverse now.

We know where Obama's statist and Leftist ideals lead to - if not the bankrupted coffers of California (where voters just rejected a whole host of measures to further enhance state power and raise taxes further) than to nothing less than a soft tyranny.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
This is why people like me say that Powell is not a Republican, and that conservatism DOES have a future. Powell said that "the American people want more government services and are willing to pay more in taxes". Well, the recent vote in California (certainly not a hotbed of conservatism) showed him to be wrong. People have had enough of out-of-control government. In that statement, Powell shows his disagreement with the most basic of Republican values.

 checkmark 

The liberal press is entirely predictable these days. It's little wonder they are quickly going out of business. Powell is treated as some sort of sage by the press these days because he's effectively telling the GOP to become Democrats - after all, America wants bigger government and higher taxes. After all, that's what Powell just told us.

And yet, the narrative fell apart when blue-state California voted overwhelmingly AGAINST such big government and higher taxes. Funny how the hoi polloi isn't playing along with their betters, isn't it? So the question is, who's actually more in tune with the country right now since a very blue state just voted against these measures?

The sainted Colin Powell? Or putting aside the showmanship, loudness and the bravado, and focusing specifically on his words, none other than someone such as Rush Limbaugh? Of course, the media would never acknowledge such a thing. It doesn't fit The Narrative.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:34 am

Perhaps Powell should spend a little less time worrying about the GOP (which has zero power to do anything now) and a little more time worrying about a government responsible for this:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...05/letter_from_a_dodge_dealer.html

"My name is George C. Joseph. I am the sole owner of Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu, a family owned and operated business in Melbourne, Florida. My family bought and paid for this automobile franchise 35 years ago in 1974. I am the second generation to manage this business.

We currently employ 50+ people and before the economic slowdown we employed over 70 local people. We are active in the community and the local chamber of commerce. We deal with several dozen local vendors on a day to day basis and many more during a month. All depend on our business for part of their livelihood. We are financially strong with great respect in the market place and community. We have strong local presence and stability.

I work every day the store is open, nine to ten hours a day. I know most of our customers and all our employees. Sunshine Dodge is my life.

On Thursday, May 14, 2009 I was notified that my Dodge franchise, that we purchased, will be taken away from my family on June 9, 2009 without compensation and given to another dealer at no cost to them. My new vehicle inventory consists of 125 vehicles with a financed balance of 3 million dollars. This inventory becomes impossible to sell with no factory incentives beyond June 9, 2009. Without the Dodge franchise we can no longer sell a new Dodge as "new," nor will we be able to do any warranty service work. Additionally, my Dodge parts inventory, (approximately $300,000.) is virtually worthless without the ability to perform warranty service. There is no offer from Chrysler to buy back the vehicles or parts inventory.

Our facility was recently totally renovated at Chrysler's insistence, incurring a multi-million dollar debt in the form of a mortgage at Sun Trust Bank.

HOW IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CAN THIS HAPPEN?

THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY

This is beyond imagination! My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong.

This atrocity will most likely force my family into bankruptcy. This will also cause our 50+ employees to be unemployed. How will they provide for their families? This is a total economic disaster.

HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?


I beseech your help, and look forward to your reply. Thank you.

Sincerely,

George C. Joseph
President & Owner
Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu"



A profitable business is seized by the feds and closed down with no explanation, causing a private citizen to lose his business and forcing him to declare bankruptcy and lay off 50 of his employees.

This does not happen in the America that I am familiar with Mr. Powell.
 
Ken777
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:46 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
I would rather that be the case then. A party that will abandon one set of principles in search of popularity will abandon any set of principles. That is not leadership, it is merely weathervaning.

Sounds like the hard left liberals some years ago who would always say that they would rather be right than elected. Just as well as they were seldom elected.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 30):
But if one has no fixed set of principles, how can one govern effectively? One of the most basic requirement to lead well is to have a set of principles that you will not compromise. A set of standards that everyone, leadership included, is held to no matter how popular the principle is at that time. Allowing popular opinion to drive the beliefs and values of a party is an easy way to appeal to the lowest common denominator, but it does not get you any further than that. It is the barest step above mob rule.

Principles are nice, but as someone once said, politics is the art of the possible. Push too hard in either direction and voters start pushing back. That's what I believe happened to the Conservatives in the past two elections. Some highly respected statesmen of the party don't jump when a Cheney or Rush snaps their fingers. Others are so afraid that they will, but I don't consider General Powell in that group.

I think it is also important to understand that over time opinions on what is acceptable in society changes. When Huey Long was governor of Louisiana the conservatives considered his plan for free high school textbooks to be a horrid socialist program. You won't find any Conservative today that would push to end that program.
 
Klaus
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 9:45 am



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 32):
HOW IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CAN THIS HAPPEN?

THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY

This is beyond imagination! My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong.

This atrocity will most likely force my family into bankruptcy. This will also cause our 50+ employees to be unemployed. How will they provide for their families? This is a total economic disaster.

HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?

It's called capitalism. Welcome to the less friendly side of your favourite economic principle (bankruptcy of a supplier and loss of services). It is unfortunately all part of the same package.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 2:25 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 32):
A profitable business is seized by the feds and closed down with no explanation, causing a private citizen to lose his business and forcing him to declare bankruptcy and lay off 50 of his employees.

This does not happen in the America that I am familiar with Mr. Powell.

It has certainly happened before. I seem to recall a Republican Senator from Maine who tried during the Truman administration to take down the Hughes Aircraft Company and TWA, which employed tens of thousands, over a mere personal relationship with a generous campaign donator.

Doesn't make it right. All of this crap will be sorted out appropriately in the end, we can only hope.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
mt99
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 2:30 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 32):
George C. Joseph
President & Owner
Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu"

Mr. Joseph.

If your dealership was one that provided Dodge financial benefit (as much as the ones that are not being closed), you would still be in business.

The market has decided that there are other dealerships who are more efficient than yourself.

Thanks for playing.

Signed,

Capitalism.
Step into my office, baby
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):

It's called capitalism. Welcome to the less friendly side of your favourite economic principle (bankruptcy of a supplier and loss of services). It is unfortunately all part of the same package.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 36):

Mr. Joseph.

If your dealership was one that provided Dodge financial benefit (as much as the ones that are not being closed), you would still be in business.

The market has decided that there are other dealerships who are more efficient than yourself.

Thanks for playing.

Signed,

Capitalism.

Clearly the letter went over both of your heads. As everyone paying attention should realize at this point, Chrysler was taken over by the federal government. This man, Mr. Joseph was running a family run and profitable dealership, only to have it shut down and given to someone else, with no explanation as to why (here's mine: Mr. Joseph probably voted Republican).

That's not capitalism. That's the opposite of capitalism.

And you're defending what you would condemn had it happened in Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. Disgusting.
 
Klaus
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 3:19 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 37):
Clearly the letter went over both of your heads. As everyone paying attention should realize at this point, Chrysler was taken over by the federal government. This man, Mr. Joseph was running a family run and profitable dealership, only to have it shut down and given to someone else, with no explanation as to why (here's mine: Mr. Joseph probably voted Republican).

That's not capitalism. That's the opposite of capitalism.

Chrysler maneuvered itself into bankruptcy. The state now attempts to distort capitalism (which would simply let it fail completely with no remedy for any dealer or employee) by keeping it viable and cutting away only the least profitable parts while infusing it with cash which it couldn't get from the financial market on its own.

On its own without state interventioin, capitalism would leave all the dealers out in the cold, not just the less productive ones.

you can either sing the praise of pure capitalism or lament the poor victims of a corporation which has failed in the market.

But not both at the same time.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 37):
And you're defending what you would condemn had it happened in Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. Disgusting.

You're apparently disgusted by your own imaginations.

Which doesn't surprise me much.
 
seb146
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 3:39 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Obama campaigned as as an extreme liberal, on both social and economic issues.

IMO, he was given that label by the conservative commentators who hate anyone that is not Republican. Since Republicans hate anyone who has different values and ideas than that of the main stream (i.e. Rush, Coulter, O'Reilly, Cheney) they are liberal and have to be quashed. I remember Rush was not happy about McCain being nominated for President, but once Palin was in, it was full steam ahead for McCain.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Rush? Didn't he get out of the draft because of a pimple on his ass?

Didn't Cheney get out of service as well? Five times? And Bush? He defended the skies over Alabama (and went AWOL) while others were in Vietnam. This from the party that loves soldiers and the military so much.

I think this tiff between Powell and Cheney shows the deep divide within the Republican party. The elephant in the room, so to speak. No one on the right is willing to talk about it for mainly one reason: they will be ostracized if they do. So, they tow the party line no matter how much it hurts and no matter how much they disagree because they have been endoctrinated that party is the most important thing. Anything else is weakness.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
baroque
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 3:44 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
as Powell and Cheney, longtime collaborators

Are you sure you have that large a supply of poetic licence Aaron??  Big grin They were in the same administration but since 2000 collaboration is putting it a bit strongly - perhaps?

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 30):
But if one has no fixed set of principles, how can one govern effectively? One of the most basic requirement to lead well is to have a set of principles that you will not compromise.

This is a bit like arguing against "when the fact change, I change my opinion, what do you do?" Or as Ken argues:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
I would rather that be the case then. A party that will abandon one set of principles in search of popularity will abandon any set of principles. That is not leadership, it is merely weathervaning.

Sounds like the hard left liberals some years ago who would always say that they would rather be right than elected. Just as well as they were seldom elected.

The flaws in that position for the GOP were well covered in
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june09/gop_05-25.html

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 36):
Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 32):
George C. Joseph
President & Owner
Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu"

Mr. Joseph.

If your dealership was one that provided Dodge financial benefit (as much as the ones that are not being closed), you would still be in business.

The market has decided that there are other dealerships who are more efficient than yourself.

Thanks for playing.

Signed,

Capitalism.

How amazing when some of the same players have been baying for more bankruptcies especially of AIG and the like. How many more similar letters would have been possible then. Some of us did try to tell you that there were limits to how much bankruptcy even the US of A could cope with.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):
you can either sing the praise of pure capitalism or lament the poor victims of a corporation which has failed in the market.

Seems about the only options to me. But then, Klaus, we might be forgetting that if you are a "successful" entrepreneur you get an extra free card to protest at the workings of the market.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 3:59 pm

Love the latest Paul Krugman article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/opinion/25krugman.html?em

"But the California precedent still has me rattled. Who would have thought that America’s largest state, a state whose economy is larger than that of all but a few nations, could so easily become a banana republic?

On the other hand, the problems that plague California politics apply at the national level too. "

Paul Krugman, not Freequent Flier, just labeled California a "banana republic". What Paul seems completely oblivious to is the fact that California has been led by liberal Democrats for the past 10-15 years. (Pre-emptive retort: Please spare me the notion that Arnold is a conservative)

And Paul's concern? That America may turn into a banana republic too! The same America now led by....liberal Democrats!

Paul is so blinded by ideology he's trying to blame Republicans for doing things that Democrats are doing. Paul is a great economist when he isn't busy being a political hack. The problem is that he spends so much time being a political hack that it's so rare you get to read anything interesting from him.

So let's recap: California is led by liberal Democrats and is now a "banana republic" but this is the Republicans fault. Paul fears America may turn into a "banana republic" as well while it is led by liberal Democrats, but this too will be the fault of Republicans.

I'm looking forward to seeing Klaus or Falcon84's explanation of this.  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
Klaus
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 4:10 pm

Other than you trying to change the subject I see little to respond to.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 4:48 pm

Well Klaus, earlier I'm told I shouldn't open new threads with posts that are applicable to current threads. Now I'm told I'm changing the subject. To borrow a phrase from George Will, well....

I think GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to enter Chapter 11 bankruptcy. I said that months ago, when it would have saved US taxpayers billions of dollars. I don't think the federal government has ANY business whatsoever administering a bankruptcy proceeding, otherwise we have an event such as the letter above, where a profitable dealership is closed down because...because...well who really knows?

We do know a profitable family business has been driven to bankruptcy by a government entity that has not given a reason why.

So I stand by what I said originally: this does not happen in an America that I recognize. But you continue to defend it.


And I would be interested in hearing a sterling defense of Paul Krugman's article on California. Those damned minority Republicans in California who never had any power...it's all their fault is effectively bankrupt! And the Democrats who control the nation that are currently bankrupting the nation...ignore them, it's the Republican's fault! This goes beyond ideology into extreme paranoia. I think Paul is going crazy because his beliefs are causing societal and financial collapse in front of his very eyes.
 
mt99
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 4:50 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 43):

I think GM and Chrysler should have been allowed to enter Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

How would letting GM and Chrysler go into bankruptcy save this dealership?

[Edited 2009-05-26 09:51:26]
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FlyPNS1
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:06 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 43):
We do know a profitable family business has been driven to bankruptcy by a government entity that has not given a reason why.

The gov't didn't tell Chrysler what dealerships to close down. That was Chrysler's call. Even if the gov't hadn't intervened, the dealerships would have been closed. And I might note, no where in that article did the dealer actually state he was profitable.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 43):
this does not happen in an America that I recognize. But you continue to defend i

Companies go out of business all the time, it's part of the free market. Quit blaming the government and take a little responsibility.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:20 pm

Well well, the plot has thickened.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...rt-did-campaign-contributions.html

It appears that the closures were largely determined by which party the dealers made campaign contributions to. Out of all of the dealers who made campaign contributions that are publically available, only one (ONE!) was an Obama donor.

"A tipster alerted me to an interesting assertion. A cursory review by that person showed that many of the Chrysler dealers on the closing list were heavy Republican donors.

To quickly review the situation, I took all dealer owners whose names appeared more than once in the list. And, of those who contributed to political campaigns, every single one had donated almost exclusively to GOP candidates. While this isn't an exhaustive review, it does have some ominous implications if it can be verified.

However, I also found additional research online at Scribd (author unknown), which also appears to point to a highly partisan decision-making process.

Consider the partial list of Chrysler dealership owners, listed below. You'll notice that all were opponents of Barack Obama, most through sponsorship of GOP candidates and organizations, but a handful through Barack's Democrat rivals (Hillary Clinton and John Edwards in 2008, for example).

• Vernon G. Buchanan: $147,450 to GOP candidates and organizations
• Wallace D. Alley and Family: $4,500 to GOP.
• Robert Archer: $4,600 to GOP and conservative causes.
• Homer S. Higginbotham and Family: $2950 to GOP.
• James Auffenberg and Family: $28,000 to GOP; $6,000 to one Democrat candidate.
• Michael Maroone and Family: $60,000 to GOP; $8,500 to two Democrat candidates.
• Jerome Fader: $6,500 to Democrats; $2,500 to Independent Joe Lieberman.
• Stephen Fay and Family: $13,500 to GOP.
• William Numrich: $20,000 to GOP.
• Robert Carver: $10,000 to Democrats including $1,950 to Hillary Clinton, nothing to Barack Obama.

• Robert and Linda Rohrman: $24,000 to GOP.
• Frank Boucher, Jr. and Family: $18,000 to GOP, $1,000 to one Democrat candidate.
• Scott Bossier: $4,300 to GOP.
• Todd Reardon: $17,000 to GOP; $2,000 to one Democrat candidate.
• Russ Darrow and Family: $78,000 to GOP.
• Bradford Deery and Family: $24,700 to GOP.
• Charles Gabus and Family: $30,000 to GOP.
• Brian Smith: $15,500 to GOP.
• Michael Schlossman: $14,000 to GOP; $14,000 to three Democrats ($12,500 to Sen. Russ Feingold).
• Don Hill: $11,000 to GOP; $12,800 to conservative incumbent Rep. Heath Shuler.
• Don Miller: $2,000 to GOP; $1,000 to Feingold.
• Eddie Cordes: $2,150 to GOP.
• Robert Edwards: $1,100 to GOP.
• James Crowley: $19,100 to GOP.
• Stanley Graff: $2,200 to John Edwards (2008 Presidential Run); $500 to GOP.
• John Stewart: $10,500 to GOP.
• John Fitzgerald and Family: $4,600 to John McCain (2008); $2,000 to Hillary Clinton (2008); nothing to Barack Obama.
• William Churchill and Family: $3,500 to GOP.
• Thomas Ganley: $9.450 to GOP.
• Gary Miller: $20,000 to GOP.

• Kevin and Gene Beltz: $18,500 to GOP.
• Arthur Grayson: $14,000 to GOP.
• Eric Grubbs and Family: $26,000 to GOP.
• Michael Leep and Family: $19,500 to GOP; $4,800 to three Democrats including Sen. Evan Bayh.
• Harry Green, Jr.: $10,000 to GOP.
• Ronald Hoover: $5,250 to GOP.
• Ray Huffines and Family: $18,500 to GOP.
• John O. Stevenson: $1,500 to GOP.
• James Marsh: $8,200 to GOP.
• Max Pearson and Family: $112,000 to GOP.

I have thus far found only a single Obama donor (and a minor one at that: $200 from Jeffrey Hunter of Waco, Texas) on the closing list.

Chrysler claimed that its formula for determining whether a dealership should close or not included "sales volume, customer service scores, local market share and average household income in the immediate area."

In fact, there may have been other criteria involved: politics may have played a part. If this data can be validated, it would appear to be further proof that the Obama administration is willing to step over any line to advance its agenda.

It bodes poorly for America and the rule of law.
"

It certainly looks like America is quickly turning into Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. Will the Obama apologists continue to be apologists for it?

My guess is: Of course they will.
 
mt99
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:25 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):

It certainly looks like America is quickly turning into Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. Will the Obama apologists continue to be apologists for it?

My guess is: Of course they will.



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
by that person



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
While this isn't an exhaustive review,



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
f it can be verified.



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
Scribd (author unknown),



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
appears



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
thus far found o



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
may have been othe



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 46):
t would appear

Swiss Cheese anyone?
Step into my office, baby
 
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par13del
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:25 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 44):
How would letting GM and Chrysler go into bankruptcy save this dealership?

It would have protected the integrity of the process, once in Chpt. 11, the courts would oversee the proceedings, which are much less prone to "influence" that the current process. If the dealer is profitable, it is likely that it would continue under the reformed company.
 
mt99
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RE: GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney

Tue May 26, 2009 5:28 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 48):
it is likely that it would continue under the reformed company.

Regardless - there is no guarantee that all dealerships would have been saved.
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