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Tugger
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In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 5:07 pm

OK, so this thread is about what supporters of same-sex marriage should do next. It is not to debate whether someone agrees with it or not so please do post anything in that light.

Basically my question is what do supporters of same-sex marriage have to do, what should they do, to get more support? What tactics should be avoided and which one's employed to get the message to "the people" that supporting marriage is a good thing, an important thing. That marriage and unions between loving and committed couples is smart for the states and country as a whole to allow, that is must be available to all people, not just those of certain religions or beliefs.

I understand that there are many diverse opinions within those who support same-sex unions and marriage and I think the key thing is to have a common message that can be effectively communicated to others, that brings everyone together. I know I was surprised by how poor the supporters response was to the Prop. 8 initiative in California, and now you will likely have to deal with similar ballot measures in Iowa, New Hampshire, and Maine. In addition there is of course the movement to place another initiative on the California ballot to rescind Prop. 8, what will be different this time? I also know that it is difficult for many to have to go essentially hat in hand to voters and ask to be able to marry your partner, but a calm, unified message is, I think, key to making marriage available to all couples.

So is the solution civil unions for all? Or just Marriage Equality? Or....?
What are your thoughts?


With respect,

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Aaron747
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 5:17 pm

Get to the root of the issue as far as educating the public. Freedom. Family. Fairness. Those three things are at the heart of the whole thing. It can't be a hokey Hollywood sales pitch either - show that these people who want to walk into City Hall and do what you or I can, are people all of us know - our aunts, our brothers, our teachers, our police, our bosses, our janitors, our volunteer guides...whomever. The more faces, the better.
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mt99
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 5:25 pm



Quoting Tugger (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

1 Word: "time"

Give it a few years and it will be a non-issue. Kids that are growing up now will not see gay marriage as a big deal when they are in charge. A gay marriage vote in 3 years will have vastly different result than the last time around in CA.

So hopefully opponent will not block the issue to go to the polls..

That doesn't mean that education and out reach should stop by any means. But i do think we need to understand that time is a major issue.
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Alias1024
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 5:29 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 1):
Get to the root of the issue as far as educating the public. Freedom. Family. Fairness. Those three things are at the heart of the whole thing. It can't be a hokey Hollywood sales pitch either - show that these people who want to walk into City Hall and do what you or I can, are people all of us know - our aunts, our brothers, our teachers, our police, our bosses, our janitors, our volunteer guides...whomever. The more faces, the better.

 checkmark 

Avoid talk of bigotry, hatred, homophobia, or anything like it. People don't like being called a bigot, and will only be hardened against gay marriage if they feel they are being insulted by gay marriage supporters. Many people, due to their upbringing or religious views have an initial reaction to be against gay marriage, but are open-minded enough to at least listen to a well reasoned argument and consider voting against that initial reaction. These are the voters that are lost every time words like homophobe and hate are used by those in favor of gay marriage.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
TylerDurden
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 5:34 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 1):
The more faces, the better.

Unfortunately, Gay Pride season is upon us. So most, if not all, the goodwill created by the gays focused on equal rights will be usurped by those mindless displays of nudity, promiscuity, and bad, bad drag which stick in most people's minds (and on all local news shows).

Sometimes I wonder if gays don't purposely derail their own causes (?).

Oh well, there is always Fall....
 
LH423
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 5:38 pm

The same thing we've been doing all along. Slowly and steady wins the race.

People have been acting that California is the end-all-be-all in this thing. If anything, we should be focusing our energies on New Hampshire (where the passage of legislation failed a second time on some technical language in regards to protections for churches and their employees). Sure, NH pales in comparison to California in size, population, and general clout, with NH and Rhode Island (after they get a new governor), and provided ME doesn't have a people's veto in November themselves, you'd have the entire New England region plus a strong possibility of New York in the near-future.

We really need to be looking to the Northeast to lead on this matter. But, in the end, we should just continue looking to the battles we can win. With the decision upholding Prop 8 in California, we can only wait until time and popular opinion is on our side. In the meantime, focus on other states that are roughly evenly split on the issue. Places like Minnesota and New Mexico.

I appreciate the fight that those against same-sex marriage are putting up (I love a good fight) but they must realize at some point that they are on the losing side and time will prove me correct on this. Public perception is changing at a rapid rate. Think that less than 40 years ago we were fighting people like Anita Bryant and the religious right for basic anti-discriminatory measures and now we're fighting them for marriage equality.
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
NIKV69
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 6:48 pm



Quoting Tugger (Thread starter):
So is the solution civil unions for all

Why not? Jesus you can get the same thing as marriage and not have to pay if you break up! If I was gay I wouldn't want marriage, I like my money!
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 9:03 pm



Quoting LH423 (Reply 5):
Think that less than 40 years ago we were fighting people like Anita Bryant and the religious right for basic anti-discriminatory measures and now we're fighting them for marriage equality.

Why is it always the religious right that's fighting this stuff? Interracial marriage, women's rights, women's suffrage, etc. It's always the religious right. Then 50 years later, they're against racial discrimination, gender discrimination, etc.

I don't get it.
-Doc Lightning-

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LH423
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 9:26 pm

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...turn_to_calif_ballot/?comments=all

However, it seems some aren't content to wait. Two lawyers have filed a suit in federal court.

This may not end well.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
TheCol
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 9:43 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):

I think most of the attention is focused on fundamentalists, because they tend to shout the loudest and act hatefully towards others. There are plenty of secular people who don't approve of homosexual relationships, but have the decency to respect others for who they are, and usually mind their own business. The same goes for the majority of religious people in North America, but you don't hear us because we believe respect is a two way street, so there isn't anything negative for the media to pick-up and broadcast.
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Yellowstone
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 9:54 pm

It's quite simple, really. Wait until either the 2010 or 2012 general elections in CA, put a measure on the ballot repealing Prop 8, and it will pass. Nate Silver's analysis of the issue over on 538.com found that gay marriage bans lose support at a rate of about 2 percent a year, and since the vote in 2008 was 52-48 against marriage, a vote in 2010 would be roughly 52-48 in favor of marriage.

Kind of morbid, but there was a quote I read somewhere suggesting that a marriage supporter's favorite sound ought to be an ambulance siren, because it's either a new marriage supporter being born or a marriage opponent passing away.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
mt99
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 9:55 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
Wait until either the 2010 or 2012 general elections in CA, put a measure on the ballot repealing Prop 8, and it will pass

Ding Ding Ding!
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ual777
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 10:05 pm



Quoting LH423 (Reply 8):

However, it seems some aren't content to wait. Two lawyers have filed a suit in federal court.

This may not end well.

This will be shot down very quickly as it is an obvious state issue. You get a state marriage license not a Federal one.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
LH423
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Wed May 27, 2009 10:45 pm



Quoting UAL777 (Reply 12):
This will be shot down very quickly as it is an obvious state issue. You get a state marriage license not a Federal one.

Not entirely. When congress passed DOMA they got the federal government involved. That is ultimately the issue at hand. Overturn DOMA and gay marriage effectively becomes legal in all states since regardless of what laws or constitutional amendments exist in some states, the Full Faith and Credit clause would require states to recognize laws performed in other states.

Furthermore, DOMA allows the government to not recognize same-sex marriages. Without DOMA, the federal government will be forced to recognize those unions and confer the various tax benefits and other rights to same-sex couples.

So, yes, marriages are a state matter but they have federal implications.

LH423
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EA772LR
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Thu May 28, 2009 1:54 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Why is it always the religious right that's fighting this stuff? Interracial marriage, women's rights, women's suffrage, etc. It's always the religious right. Then 50 years later, they're against racial discrimination, gender discrimination, etc.

I don't get it.

Well you'd be surprised to know that the reason the issue of gay marriage got shot down in California was because of the high numbers of Hispanic and African American voters...and I'm 99.99% sure that both minority groups vote much more to the left.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
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akiss20
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Thu May 28, 2009 3:14 am



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 14):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Why is it always the religious right that's fighting this stuff? Interracial marriage, women's rights, women's suffrage, etc. It's always the religious right. Then 50 years later, they're against racial discrimination, gender discrimination, etc.

I don't get it.

Well you'd be surprised to know that the reason the issue of gay marriage got shot down in California was because of the high numbers of Hispanic and African American voters...and I'm 99.99% sure that both minority groups vote much more to the left.

Both of those minority groups also tend to be very highly religious. So while they are politically liberal and economically as well, as a general group, socially they tend to remain rather conservative. I recall after the Nov 08 election stats about these minority groups and their self-claimed "religious level" and more than a majority claimed to be rather religious. I don't have stats off the top of my head, but this just gives an explanation as to that insight.
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EA772LR
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Thu May 28, 2009 3:44 am



Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 15):
Both of those minority groups also tend to be very highly religious. So while they are politically liberal and economically as well, as a general group, socially they tend to remain rather conservative. I recall after the Nov 08 election stats about these minority groups and their self-claimed "religious level" and more than a majority claimed to be rather religious. I don't have stats off the top of my head, but this just gives an explanation as to that insight.

You're exactly right, and that is precisely what I was getting at. It isn't just the 'religious right', but rather all types of people with 'conservative-traditional' views on the meaning of marriage. There seems to be an awful lot of animosity towards the 'religious right', but the alternative 'secular left' makes me much more nervous.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Thu May 28, 2009 4:59 am



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 16):

You're exactly right, and that is precisely what I was getting at. It isn't just the 'religious right', but rather all types of people with 'conservative-traditional' views on the meaning of marriage. There seems to be an awful lot of animosity towards the 'religious right', but the alternative 'secular left' makes me much more nervous.

The secular left has no wish to force its views down anyone's throats. Don't believe in same-sex marriage? Don't marry someone of the same sex. Don't believe in interracial marriage? Don't marry someone of a different race.

The religious right will demand that everyone behave as they wish. Nobody can buy alcohol on Sunday, even if that's not your day of rest. Sodomy is illegal because it says so in the Bible. We'll force your kids to learn creation stories with no evidence behind them other than their existence in the Bible. We'll force your kids to sit silently while we pray.

Scares me a lot more than any degree of secularism does.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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EA772LR
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RE: In Support Of Same-Sex Marriage - What To Do Next?

Thu May 28, 2009 5:14 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
The secular left has no wish to force its views down anyone's throats.

Can you explain what the 'Fairness doctrine' is then?? It's a 'leftist' agenda to hush up the right, becuz all the so called 'right wing pawns' are stirring up a little too much 'dissidence' against the left. If what you you're saying is true, then by the same token, why is the secular left pushing so hard to censor conservative talk radio? If the left doesn't like it, don't listen to it.

The same idea applies in a way, which you've stated above, (which I do agree with) to the conversation of gay marriage.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
The religious right will demand that everyone behave as they wish. Nobody can buy alcohol on Sunday, even if that's not your day of rest. Sodomy is illegal because it says so in the Bible. We'll force your kids to learn creation stories with no evidence behind them other than their existence in the Bible. We'll force your kids to sit silently while we pray.

Scares me a lot more than any degree of secularism does.

What you stated above sounds an awful lot like the way this current administration has acted in its first 100+ days and intends to act in the coming years...except the opposite direction obviously. But we'll save that conversation for a later day  white 
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