dtwclipper
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GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Thu May 28, 2009 7:13 pm

General Motors, which today unveiled a sweetened deal to shed billions in debt, plans to file for bankruptcy reorganization Monday, the Free Press has learned.




http://www.freep.com/article/2009052...037/GM+plans+for+bankruptcy+Monday


Well folks, here we go.
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Phoenix9
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Thu May 28, 2009 7:43 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
General Motors, which today unveiled a sweetened deal to shed billions in debt, plans to file for bankruptcy reorganization Monday, the Free Press has learned.

Well it was predicted when the sh*t hit the fan. It was not the question of if but...when?
They better learn their lessons and smarten up.
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Charles79
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Thu May 28, 2009 8:59 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 1):
They better learn their lessons and smarten up.

I wish I could share your optimism. I've been following the car industry since 1990 and every 5 years or so I would read about the new turnaround plan by GM, Chrysler or Ford...


... as for the bankrupt filing, well, it was expected since last year. I still can't understand why Bush had to give them both the loans back then instead of allowing them to file for bankruptcy, would've saved us some money I think.
 
TylerDurden
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 12:57 am



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2):
would've saved us some money I think.

GM still needs approximately $30B after the filing to actually survive.
A surreal number for the crap they produce.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:08 am



Quoting Tylerdurden (Reply 3):
$30B

WTF! What's the guarantee that they will actually change their strategy and produce something worth buying? Even after $30B , there is no guarantee that they will survive long enough to pay the loans back. Makes you wonder what was happening in the boardrooms and where billions went.
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:12 am

I'm not surprised it has come to this. GM has WAY too much excess capacity and reducing themselves to no more than Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC in North America and Chevrolet and Opel/Vauxhall in the rest of the world must be part of their long-term survival strategy.

I would not be surprised that a Chinese automotive company like China's SAIC seriously looks at either buying many GM assets or becomes a part owner of GM. Why SAIC? GM sells cars very successfully in China in a joint venture with SAIC and SAIC wants to keep those production lines in China going.
 
NIKV69
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:36 am



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2):
... as for the bankrupt filing, well, it was expected since last year. I still can't understand why Bush had to give them both the loans back then instead of allowing them to file for bankruptcy, would've saved us some money I think.

Well because he was about to leave office and if he didn't he would have been villified. No to mention Obama would have done it if Bush didn't. Everyone with half a brain knew it was wrong to do and we were throwing money out the window but we all bought in to the CNN crap about people losing their jobs and nobody buying a car from a company under restrucuring. Both of which was left wing propaganda. GM has been a horrible run company for 20 years. They owed 70 Billion, had a union that sucked, had 20% market share and had a cost to make a vehicle that was nuts. They should have filed last year, should have got some better management in and told the UAW to go to hell. Instead of acting like a bunch of sacred cows that the Obama administration would give a blank check.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Flighty
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 3:10 am

NikV, I agree with your post 100%. Well done my friend.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 4:23 am



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 5):
I'm not surprised it has come to this. GM has WAY too much excess capacity and reducing themselves to no more than Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC in North America and Chevrolet and Opel/Vauxhall in the rest of the world must be part of their long-term survival strategy.

Opel/Vauxhall will be heading off on their own, there's 4 different bidders at the moment, looking to see who will get the most support from European governments

In the case of Vauxhall, it was bought by GM in 1925. So thats 84 years of GM ownership down the drain, due to the US arm producing antiquated crap that no one wants.

The present problem for Vauxhall is that despite massive sales in the UK, the vast majority of the cars are made in Germany, thus the German government is looking for assurances from prospective buyers to preserve German jobs, and the chances are the UK plants will get severely pruned, in an economy drive.
 
ltbewr
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 11:42 am

June 1st will indeed be a sad day in American history as the biggest manufacturing company based in the USA and one of the biggest in the world, GM, goes into Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Today, Friday, May 29th, Chrysler should finalize it's deal with Fiat. Ford is surviving, but will probalby have to get bailout money soon.
What has led us to this point has been well documented in many places. The bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler will desvestate communities where they and supplier companies are throughout the world even in the best sceaniro. Where these corporations go from here will be a huge challange. Let us hope for the best for all concerned.
 
NIKV69
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 12:11 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
June 1st will indeed be a sad day in American history as the biggest manufacturing company based in the USA and one of the biggest in the world, GM, goes into Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Today, Friday, May 29th, Chrysler should finalize it's deal with Fiat. Ford is surviving, but will probalby have to get bailout money soon.
What has led us to this point has been well documented in many places. The bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler will desvestate communities where they and supplier companies are throughout the world even in the best sceaniro. Where these corporations go from here will be a huge challange. Let us hope for the best for all concerned.

Well maybe if the board at GM didn't just sit back and watch as the company was run into the ground this could have been avoided. Remember one important point. The downturn in the economy was only the final nail in GM's coffin. They failed to act as the company failed in many areas. For this they deserve their fate.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 12:15 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
For this they deserve their fate.

What are you talking about? Their proper fate is being denied to them by yet more government intervention. They aren't getting the fate they deserve at all.
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na
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:14 pm

And now GM f***s up the future of Opel too, by playing tricks at the last minute. Just one of the once 4 takers is still interested (Fiat left this morning) - and is unexpectedly confronted with a GM delegation suddenly asking for more money and bringing up different issues to the ones spoken about before, thus spoiling the negotiations, fooling investors and the German government. Even by today Opel could be broke, if the last investor, Magna, should turn their back in disgust. There will be no taxpayers money to save them should GM not give in.

GM is a bad-managed monster, and has been that for long.
 
NIKV69
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:14 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
What are you talking about? Their proper fate is being denied to them by yet more government intervention. They aren't getting the fate they deserve at all.

Well the UAW is too politically connected. The bondholders and stockholders are taking a beating here. All of this was born out of the fact CNN and MSNBC exploited the notion they were too big to fail. They should have been allowed to die a long time ago. Whenever you put one worker in a higher regard than another and a union in charge this will happen.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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Revelation
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:18 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
They should have filed last year, should have got some better management in and told the UAW to go to hell. Instead of acting like a bunch of sacred cows that the Obama administration would give a blank check.

I believe it was Bush who first uttered the words "too big to fail" and that the Obama Administration has made GM rewrite their business plan several times instead of signing blank checks, but feel free to see it any way you want.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Well maybe if the board at GM didn't just sit back and watch as the company was run into the ground this could have been avoided. Remember one important point. The downturn in the economy was only the final nail in GM's coffin. They failed to act as the company failed in many areas. For this they deserve their fate.

Everyone involved was not willing to disrupt the status quo till the shit hit the fan and they had no choice but deal with the aftermath. A lot of management compensation is in the form of stock grants or options which are all worthless, so they aren't dancing around the boardroom table. A lot of the worker's retirement plan is backed by the new GM stock, which will be worthless if the company doesn't get its shit together.

I hope everyone involved is fully funding their IRAs and saving for tomorrow since chances are GM v2.0 will circle the toilet in a few years anyhow.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
What are you talking about? Their proper fate is being denied to them by yet more government intervention. They aren't getting the fate they deserve at all.

They are getting the fate the US voters wanted. I didn't see too many politicians running on an anti-auto industry plank last year.
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United Airline
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:40 pm

Any chance for them to avoid this? Will they survive after this?
 
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 1:54 pm



Quoting United Airline (Reply 15):
Any chance for them to avoid this?

No, their first loan from the government comes due soon (Monday?) and they can't pay it back.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 15):
Will they survive after this?

In some form, for a while, yes.

If they can't figure out how to build cars as good as their competition for the same price, no.

They really have a lot going against them. I think the general public has doubts bout their future so they will be leery of buying a car from them. I hope they know they need to improve their product, but they can't turn things around overnight, and their balance sheet won't support huge investments in new technology. Now the US Gov't will be voting around 75% of the shares, so they now have a very fickle and obtuse business partner, like it or not.
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Ken777
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 2:00 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2):
I still can't understand why Bush had to give them both the loans back then instead of allowing them to file for bankruptcy, would've saved us some money I think.

Bush didn't want GM to close under his watch - he had enough problems with his reputation as it was. It was left to Obama to take the bull by the horns and save as much as possible from the mess he was left. OMG, that sounds familiar.  Sad

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Everyone with half a brain knew it was wrong to do and we were throwing money out the window but we all bought in to the CNN crap about people losing their jobs and nobody buying a car from a company under restrucuring.

People with jobs pay federal and state income taxes, FICA and various other taxes, like sales taxes. People without jobs receive money from the federal and state treasurers rather than putting money in. That hasn't changed.

Nor has the phycology of buying from a company in bankruptcy. The fast, surgical approach is a lot cheaper as lawyers will not have years of billing. It also gets a company back in the market faster.

Forget liberal/conservative approaches - this is Common Sense 101.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Well the UAW is too politically connected. The bondholders and stockholders are taking a beating here.

If Bush had taken on the problem instead of passing it to Obama that situation would have been reversed.

The issue now is how much the new GM will discount the cars from the old GM in order to get production going, orders going to suppliers, etc. The existing cars need to be prices at a lower point that will be possible under union concessions. That is when we will see how well GM can compete.
 
Arrow
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 3:44 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
People with jobs pay federal and state income taxes, FICA and various other taxes, like sales taxes. People without jobs receive money from the federal and state treasurers rather than putting money in. That hasn't changed.

Yeah, but at what point does it make more sense to just let the company die, and cut a big one-time cheque for every employee instead? This is just on the Canadian side of this catastrophe, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much to do the same calculation for the US parent company.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...or-every-job-saved/article1158733/

Excerpt:

$1.4-million for every job saved

With the projected cost of bailing out GM and Chrysler mounting by the day, the federal and Ontario governments may need to come up with a new sales pitch to persuade maxed-out taxpayers to go along for the increasingly wild ride.

Ottawa and Toronto were already asking a lot of Canadians – most of whom have no private retirement fund and earn significantly less than auto assembly workers – by allowing some of the bailout money to go toward fixing an estimated $7-billion shortfall in GM Canada's pension plan.

But with the latest forecast pegging the overall bailout bill at as much as $13.5-billion, or more than three times the original estimate, politicians are testing the limits of recession-racked Canadians' tolerance and financial wherewithal. The ballooning bailouts are pushing Ottawa deeper into the red, with this year's deficit projected to surpass $50-billion.

At General Motors of Canada Ltd. alone, the rescue package could amount to a staggering $1.4-million for every job saved, with no guarantee that the bailout will ensure the long-term survival of the company's remaining auto assembly and engine plants.


If you simply help out the workers (think they'd turn down, say, a cool million each?) and let the market decide the rest, you'd get a much better result long term. The federal government just revealed that the 2009 deficit will hit $50 billion now (up from $30B), largely because of the auto bailout. That's insanity.
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Revelation
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 4:14 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Well the UAW is too politically connected. The bondholders and stockholders are taking a beating here. All of this was born out of the fact CNN and MSNBC exploited the notion they were too big to fail.

Funny, http://www.google.com/search?q=gm+"too+big+to+fail" didn't bring up hits from CNN or MSNBC in the first few pages.

Limiting the search to CNN via http://www.google.com/search?q=gm+%22too+big+to+fail%22+site%3Acnn.com shows articles about how "too big to fail" is bad policy.

Why would any news outlet care either way? Wouldn't the pain and suffering of zillions of auto workers make better news copy than some government officials signing a bailout bill?

Or maybe you feel better blaming this on the media, when it's true that both political parties supported the auto industry bailout even when their constituents did not, despite the alleged media brainwashing?
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dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 4:22 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
suffering of zillions of auto workers

When are you folks going to stop talking about just the "auto workers" who are going to and are already suffering?

We are all going to suffer from this. I have friends who have lost their jobs because GM is no longer ordering from their suppliers and in other cases no longer able to provide funding for charitable organizations.

It's not about the UAW alone, it is about thousands of engineers, designers, etc., who are going to loose their income and thus everyone around them will loose.

Why is this so hard to understand?
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casinterest
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 4:30 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
ell because he was about to leave office and if he didn't he would have been villified. No to mention Obama would have done it if Bush didn't

Are you trying to say that Bush abandoned his principles?



The sad truth here is that GM was poorly run and has a deep divide between Management and the Unions. You can't make a great car when both sides want nothing but Money and will sacrifice quality to get it. Their are some good people in both camps, but ultimately they get led to the slaughter with the advance of the "left" and "right" sides of the issue.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 20):
It's not about the UAW alone, it is about thousands of engineers, designers, etc., who are going to loose their income and thus everyone around them will loose.

GM will go bankrupt and reorginize. Many of their suppliers will have to do the same. This will be a snowball effect throughout the economy. Many folks will lose their life savings, their pensions, and other effects. The future will be much different for this era of GM workers than the previous generations.
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 4:38 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 20):

It's not about the UAW alone, it is about thousands of engineers, designers, etc., who are going to loose their income and thus everyone around them will loose.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I agree with you, and because of that, I'll ignore how you quoted me WAAAY out of context in order to make your point.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 4:41 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
I'll ignore how you quoted me WAAAY out of context in order to make your

Thanks...I won't do it again! Big grin  Big grin
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Charles79
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 4:56 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 21):
The future will be much different for this era of GM workers than the previous generations.

I think this is about the only thing that we can count on. GM as it is today will no longer exist. Their European presence will shrink to Corvette, a few Cadillacs and the Korean-imported Chevys (no more Opel or Saab). Asia, particularly China, might still look the same (haven't heard much about Holden but the SAIC-backed Chinese Buick looks strong at the moment). Here in America, though, we should see the biggest changes: no more Pontiacs or Saturns, more small cars at Chevy dealers, fewer large SUVs, and a bigger push for "green" cars. Oh, and substantially reduced wages for its workforce, far fewer benefits (I read that the retirees will now pick up the tab for dental/vision themselves), and a dented image. Add to that a much smaller footprint in terms of dealers and plants closures.

When the history books are written many historians will undoubtedly point to the economic crisis as the reason for their demise. However, those who take a deeper look will see a company which had been loosing market share and posting heavy losses for far too long without taking the necessary steps to adapt to the changing times. A bureaucratic heriarchy, a short-sighted management, and at times an inflexible union will all make the reading material at business schools as well.

About the only variable that we have at the moment which might have not been foreseen is the government intervention. The previous administration set the ball rolling with the government backed loans, the current administration kept it rolling with increased funding and a push for a quick bankruptcy filing. Now the question that remains is for how long will the government intervention last, and how much clout will it have on the decision making process.

As for the effects on the economy it's too complex of a situation at the moment to suggest, with enough confidence, what might have happened had the government not intervened when it did. We'll never know whether GM would have been shut down by now or not. At the same time the big question remains: will the new, post-bankruptcy GM survive and be competitive? It will be an interesting story to follow.
 
MD-90
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 5:28 pm

And the billions and billions of dollars given to Chrysler and GM were supposed to prevent bankruptcy, not merely delay it. Or so the pro-big government hacks claimed.
 
NIKV69
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 10:28 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
but feel free to see it any way you want.

Say what you want but how much money did they waste of ours? Money we will never see again.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
Everyone involved was not willing to disrupt the status quo till the shit hit the fan and they had no choice but deal with the aftermath

That is because the left wing is in bed with CNN and MSNBC and listened to the BS. Your telling me you didn't realize the company was at the end of their rope last Oct?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
No, their first loan from the government comes due soon (Monday?) and they can't pay it back

Yea seeing they owed 70 Billion before they got the first loan from us and nobody was buying their product yea safe to say that money is gone.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
People with jobs pay federal and state income taxes, FICA and various other taxes, like sales taxes. People without jobs receive money from the federal and state treasurers rather than putting money in. That hasn't changed.

So does every other employee, does that mean we keep a company that can't pay their bills afloat by wasting taxpayer money? Come on this is insane.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
If Bush had taken on the problem instead of passing it to Obama that situation would have been reversed

How? Your totally wrong, GM was long gone at that point. Again, 65 Billion in debt, 20% of the market and a union bleeding you dry. Nothing was saving them buddy.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
The issue now is how much the new GM will discount the cars from the old GM in order to get production going, orders going to suppliers, etc. The existing cars need to be prices at a lower point that will be possible under union concessions. That is when we will see how well GM can compete.

I hate to break this to you but GM can't compete in this market. Their cars are not as good as Honda and the other imports and unless the UAW really drops their pants GM is toast.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Why would any news outlet care either way? Wouldn't the pain and suffering of zillions of auto workers make better news copy than some government officials signing a bailout bill?

No because CNN and MSNBC want Obama's socialist agenda to succeed and that includes controlling businesses such as GM. CNN hates the fact that good companies prosper and poor companies fail.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 21):
Are you trying to say that Bush abandoned his principles?

Bush simply punted, he knew Obama was going to give GM money which is why he did it. If he didn't he would have been villified more than he was.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 25):
And the billions and billions of dollars given to Chrysler and GM were supposed to prevent bankruptcy, not merely delay it. Or so the pro-big government hacks claimed.

I think anyone with any business sense knew GM was too far gone. Yet Obama got his shot and he wasted a ton of money.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 10:59 pm

As long as the Cadillac Motor Car Company survives the collapse of GM, all will be fine.  yes 
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Revelation
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Fri May 29, 2009 11:27 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
That is because the left wing is in bed with CNN and MSNBC and listened to the BS.

Yet I looked for the evidence and found none. Do you want to provide any?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Your telling me you didn't realize the company was at the end of their rope last Oct?

Indeed, and before, but that was when the last administration was in charge, so I don't see what point you are trying to make.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
No because CNN and MSNBC want Obama's socialist agenda to succeed and that includes controlling businesses such as GM.

Why? If everything goes "their" way, there won't be much news to report, right?
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sat May 30, 2009 1:28 am

Someone earlier said that Ford will need a bailout. Ford has said that money is NOT for Ford itself, but to prop up the parts suppliers providing parts to Ford plants.

Remember, Ford has two very exciting models coming to the US market in 2010: the new Fiesta (already an enormous success in Europe) subcompact and the third-generation Focus. I expect both models to be flying out of Ford dealerships in North American in 2010.
 
Ken777
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sat May 30, 2009 1:34 am



Quoting Arrow (Reply 18):
Yeah, but at what point does it make more sense to just let the company die, and cut a big one-time cheque for every employee instead?

It's not just GM - it is all of the other businesses that generate revenues from the company or their employees. Parts suppliers who close because of GM might also be supplying local production of Toyota, Honda, etc. That would hurt to have their production shut for a while because of a lack of parts.

Let's not include various companies that have employees for customers. Everyone from local cafe to national banks.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 20):
When are you folks going to stop talking about just the "auto workers" who are going to and are already suffering?

You're right about that. There is, however, little sympathy for the top execs pulling in millions a year. There are, however, a lot of people earning the living in the industry and only a fool would wish them ill,

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 21):
The sad truth here is that GM was poorly run and has a deep divide between Management and the Unions.

Interesting program on CNN covering the problems in the auto industry. On the topic of legacy (retirees) costs the best comment of the night was about the unions pushing for universal health care after WW II, but the auto execs were afraid of "socialized medicine" so promised to take care of workers & retirees. That is probably costing them $2,000 per car for that choice. Hurts a competitive position, but keeps the conservatives happy for half a century.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 25):
And the billions and billions of dollars given to Chrysler and GM were supposed to prevent bankruptcy, not merely delay it. Or so the pro-big government hacks claimed.

Actually I seem to remember Bush providing the money to hold them over until Obama took over, then Obama gave them some money to hold them for 30 days (Chrysler) or 60 days (GM) to get their arrangements in order.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
How? Your totally wrong, GM was long gone at that point. Again, 65 Billion in debt, 20% of the market and a union bleeding you dry. Nothing was saving them buddy.

Union members were middle class and the execs were definitely upper class (dollar wise).

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
I hate to break this to you but GM can't compete in this market. Their cars are not as good as Honda and the other imports and unless the UAW really drops their pants GM is toast.

I have to break this to you, but Toyota has also gone to their government for a handout. The US car makers are not the only ones suffering. There was an auto bubble, just like there was a housing bubble and all companies are hurting right now.

In terms of quality, I haven't driven a Honda, but have had a lot of Toyotas - starting with a '70 Corolla and a 76 Corona. Then there was a Datsun 510 that we got in '75 if I recall the year correctly. Then there was a 93 Mazde MX-3. The worst of these was the last Toyota Corolla that my grown son has. Built after Toyota cut goodies out of the car to cut the price - and the engine dies at 75K. Something no Big 3 car this family has owned has ever done - and I'm going back to my parents '52 Ford.

I would buy a used Chrysler minivan because I have grandkids. I would buy most GM cars, new or used, if the price was right, but I would get an extended warranty. (Actually I had an extended warrant on the Mazda and now that I think about it I did get my money out of it.) I would buy a Mazda or Honda or Ford (all with an extended warranty), but Toyota is on the "S" List.
 
NIKV69
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sat May 30, 2009 4:08 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
I have to break this to you, but Toyota has also gone to their government for a handout. The US car makers are not the only ones suffering. There was an auto bubble, just like there was a housing bubble and all companies are hurting right now

It's all relative, Toyota felt it sure but they sell a hell of a lot more cars than GM and pay a hell of a lot less to make them so in 2-3 years they will be thriving where GM can't even pay their bills or sell a car.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
In terms of quality, I haven't driven a Honda, but have had a lot of Toyotas - starting with a '70 Corolla and a 76 Corona. Then there was a Datsun 510 that we got in '75 if I recall the year correctly. Then there was a 93 Mazde MX-3. The worst of these was the last Toyota Corolla that my grown son has. Built after Toyota cut goodies out of the car to cut the price - and the engine dies at 75K. Something no Big 3 car this family has owned has ever done - and I'm going back to my parents '52 Ford.

I would buy a used Chrysler minivan because I have grandkids. I would buy most GM cars, new or used, if the price was right, but I would get an extended warranty. (Actually I had an extended warrant on the Mazda and now that I think about it I did get my money out of it.) I would buy a Mazda or Honda or Ford (all with an extended warranty), but Toyota is on the "S" List.



At the end of the day the Japanese make a better car. Hands down. I drive down the road I see a ton of Altimas, Camry's, Accords etc. They dominate and for good reason.
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N328KF
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sat May 30, 2009 4:30 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 31):
It's all relative, Toyota felt it sure but they sell a hell of a lot more cars than GM and pay a hell of a lot less to make them so in 2-3 years they will be thriving where GM can't even pay their bills or sell a car.

Until the downturn, there was strong competition for #1 between GM, Ford, Toyota, and Volkswagen. To say that Toyota sells a "hell of a lot more" is naive.
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Okie
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 1:41 am



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 20):
It's not about the UAW alone, it is about thousands of engineers, designers, etc., who are going to loose their income and thus everyone around them will loose.

That may be true, but the country is losing 600,000+ jobs a month and it is just ludicris to keep pouring Billions into the car industry that is not providing that many jobs.

At the rate GM is going every $40,000 vehicle that leaves the factory is going to have a $500.000.00 cost.

Okie
 
Charles79
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 2:03 am



Quoting Okie (Reply 33):
At the rate GM is going every $40,000 vehicle that leaves the factory is going to have a $500.000.00 cost.

I'm assuming this is your own estimate and not an official figure but I'd be surprised if the official figure is that much lower than your estimate. It might even be higher, who knows.

Leaving the silly political comments aside (really folks, there are tons of other threads to bash Bush/Obama et al) I still have some serious questions as a taxpayer. I don't want to see people lose their jobs anymore than the next person but I do really wonder if this is the best use of our money. I mean, couldn't we just put these $billions into a massive public transport program so that we can start replacing the private car as the primary means of transport in the US? I like cars a lot, I really do, but as I grow older I realize that our infrastructure (nor our planet) can't support every single person of 18 years of age or older driving their own car everywhere - to work, to school, to the market, to the dentist, etc. As a nation we already spend $Billions of wasted time sitting in traffic, mostly during the morn/evening commutes. We truly need to find not just an alternative fuel or more efficient vehicles, we need to find a replacement for the private car as the sole mode of commuting. Perhaps these $Billions being spent in trying to save these companies could have been spent for this purpose (perhaps even employing most of the same workers).

Just a thought....
 
dxing
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 2:35 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
It's not just GM - it is all of the other businesses that generate revenues from the company or their employees. Parts suppliers who close because of GM might also be supplying local production of Toyota, Honda, etc. That would hurt to have their production shut for a while because of a lack of parts.

That would be very limited. For the most part the foreign owned assembly plants are located in the south and in towns away from GM assembly centers. Most foreign auto companies set up their own chain of supply when they came ashore. If nothing else remember one deals in metric sizes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
I have to break this to you, but Toyota has also gone to their government for a handout. The US car makers are not the only ones suffering. There was an auto bubble, just like there was a housing bubble and all companies are hurting right now.

This is true. One of the reasons I have not bought a brand new car in many years is that I don't see the material or workmanship in any new auto to justify the price.
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dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 11:26 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 35):
Most foreign auto companies set up their own chain of supply when they came ashore.

Sorry DX, but this is incorrect. There is a shared supply chain for both the domestic and the transplant auto makers. For example (and there are many), Metaldyne supplies its products to GM, Ford and Chrysler as well as foreign manufacturers including Toyota, Honda and Volkswagen.
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EMBQA
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 12:43 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
Well folks, here we go.

There is a part of me that says "So What...???" Think back to the time that GM was the big bully on the street and crushed, threatened, sued, lobbied and forced many other car manufactures out of business here in the US. What goes around, comes around.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
dxing
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 12:49 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 36):
Sorry DX, but this is incorrect.

Then I stand corrected. Evidently things have changed since the big hue and cry when the offshore manufacturers came here they first imported their parts then set up their own supply chain near their plants.
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dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 1:12 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 37):
forced many other car manufactures out of business here in the US

Could you give us an example from the last 50 years?
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Aaron747
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 1:24 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
I have to break this to you, but Toyota has also gone to their government for a handout. The US car makers are not the only ones suffering. There was an auto bubble, just like there was a housing bubble and all companies are hurting right now.

I hate to break it to you, but the loan Toyota is taking from the JBIC is in US dollars and is only to provide financing for US operations. TMC has been unable to secure normal operational loans from within the US due to the current climate and now must resort to this. For obvious exchange rate reasons, they don't run their financing in the US as transfers from Japan.

Despite their 2008 losses and expected losses this year, TMC's overall finances are in excellent shape. They're sitting on plenty of cash and have a stellar credit rating. It's not TMC that's really suffering per se, they are just trying to alleviate the effects of the production downturn for their rather large supply chain.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
The worst of these was the last Toyota Corolla that my grown son has. Built after Toyota cut goodies out of the car to cut the price - and the engine dies at 75K.

Funny, I've never heard of a Made in Japan Toyota doing that. There must be trouble on the US end.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 32):
Until the downturn, there was strong competition for #1 between GM, Ford, Toyota, and Volkswagen. To say that Toyota sells a "hell of a lot more" is naive.

I wouldn't call it naive, just a misstatement. At any rate, Toyota's global sales numbers are impressive considering their native market is miniscule at less than 2 million units sold per year.
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EMBQA
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 1:51 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 39):
Could you give us an example from the last 50 years?

You can't because they forced them all to be shut down.....

Although not GM, what about Robert Kearns -v- Ford....????

[Edited 2009-05-31 06:56:59]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 1:56 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 41):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 39):
Could you give us an example from the last 50 years?

You can't because they forced them all to be shut down.....



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 37):
forced many other car manufactures out of business here in the US

You can't give us one example from the last 50 years? Which ones?
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EMBQA
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 2:05 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 42):
You can't give us one example from the last 50 years?

Again.. in the last 50 yrs no... because by then they had all been forced out of business
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 2:10 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 41):

Although not GM, what about Robert Kearns -v- Ford....????

Apples and oranges and off topic.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 43):
Again.. in the last 50 yrs no... because by then they had all been forced out of business

Since you can't answer the original question, we will assume it is baseless opinion.
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EMBQA
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 2:21 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 44):
Since you can't answer the original question, we will assume it is baseless opinion.

It can't be answered because YOU'RE limiting to the last 50...Over the last 50 years there have on been the 3,,,,,now go 20 years deeper and the list grows and grows. At one time there was as many as 8-10 US made car manufactures, but since they did not have the power of the big 3 they got crushed like grapes

[Edited 2009-05-31 07:31:25]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 4:18 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 45):
It can't be answered because YOU'RE limiting to the last 50...Over the last 50 years there have on been the 3,,,,,now go 20 years deeper and the list grows and grows. At one time there was as many as 8-10 US made car manufactures, but since they did not have the power of the big 3 they got crushed like grapes

OK tell me, with back up, those car companies GM put out of business as you say: crushed, threatened, sued, lobbied. This should be good.


BTW, in the last 50 years, you still had AMC and a host of others that were not "done in" by GM, so your logic is flawed from the get go.

Oh, wait...let me guess, they forced YUGO out of the American market!
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VonRichtofen
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 4:44 pm

I'm so sick of hearing about auto worker jobs. Since when are auto worker jobs more important than any other job?

What about the thousands and thousands of already laid off people from other industries??

The idea that everybodies tax money should go to bail out spoiled auto workers makes me sick.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 4:51 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 47):
spoiled auto workers

They no longer exist, happy. They have gone they way of the glamourus stewardess and the dodo.

Enjoy the fact that they will no longer have the buying power to purchase what the produce.

A sad day in America and for America's future.
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Falcon84
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RE: GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday

Sun May 31, 2009 5:16 pm



Quoting Tylerdurden (Reply 3):
GM still needs approximately $30B after the filing to actually survive.
A surreal number for the crap they produce.

I have two GM vehicles: a 2005 Chevy Malibu Classic, and a 2005 Chevy Malibu. They're anything but crap. They're excellent vehicles.
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