bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

F1 2009 - General Issues

Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:04 am

All who participate in the F1 threads. As it was flagged in the Monaco thread, I've started this thread as there's plenty happening off the track. We'll keep the race threads on the races only and all the political stuff can happen in here.


Former race Alex Wurz is set to become the team principal of the Team Superfund outfit which has lodged an entry for 2010. I don't see how he's going to continue racing sports cars and be team principal.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75753
 
BlueElephant
Posts: 1662
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:21 pm

Which means that all current F1 teams, Superfund, Lola, Lightspeed, and Prodrive have all lodged entries?...what happened to USGPE?

Does this mean a 28 car grid for next year?
 
B747forever
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:23 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 1):
Does this mean a 28 car grid for next year?

Wow, 28 cars is a lot compared to this years 20. Wonder if it will work though.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:29 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 1):
Does this mean a 28 car grid for next year?

Wow, 28 cars is a lot compared to this years 20. Wonder if it will work though.

Shouldn't be too difficult at all. Even back in the late 80s/early 90s they had up to 35 cars trying to qualify for 26 grid slots at each race.. They would even have prequalifying of the teams with the least points to allow the fastest four cars to join the main qualifying with 30 then trying to get in the top 26 to be able to race.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:38 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Wow, 28 cars is a lot compared to this years 20. Wonder if it will work though.

It will be good to have lots of cars on the grid again besides the norm of 20/22 over the last decade or so.
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:42 am

The FIA changed the regs to allow a maximum of 13 teams, so that means 26 cars. Some teams who have submitted entries won't be in Melbourne in March. One would assume that the current ten teams will be there, plus three new teams. But those ten teams particiapting is all incumbent upon them with FOTA reaching an agreement with the FIA over the budget cap.
 
BlueElephant
Posts: 1662
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:07 pm

Some Epsilon Team has also applied for Entry, It'll be interesting to see who gets added.

I hope some of our older favorite drivers like Takuma Sato, Anthony Davidson get to drive I liked seeing Super Aguri in the lineup.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:47 am

Brinkmanship,

Now that Max has entries from between 9 & 11 non FOTA teams he could, on paper at least, run a championship without the FOTA members and to the 2010 FIA rules.

Who is going to blink first, FIA or FOTA or is this a chance for the struggling manufacturers(Renault, Toyota, BMW) to withdraw with "honour"?

While things are pretty quiet on the political front right now, I am pretty sure we can count on them to heat up in the next few weeks.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:56 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
Who is going to blink first, FIA or FOTA or is this a chance for the struggling manufacturers(Renault, Toyota, BMW) to withdraw with "honour"?

Well all the FOTA teams have contractual obligations to FOM. So if the FIA does continue without them, then what contractual obligations does FOM have to the teams? I would think that there's something in there and Bernie might push the issue to make sure they're included.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:17 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 8):
Well all the FOTA teams have contractual obligations to FOM.

I know Bernie has waved that stick over Ferrari in the last couple of weeks and I am sure his contracts are pretty watertight... but totally leakproof? How many contract truly are?
Bernie himself probably left some tiny little loophole in case things turned against him and he needed a way out.
FOM likely employ really high priced lawyers but if Bernie is going to choose enemies the even larger and even higher priced legal teams of BMW, Toyota, Renault et al might not be the best ones.

If I was a FOTA lawyer I might argue that the 2010 FIA F1 World championship with cost caps and a 2 tier rule structure was not the series that my client had contracted with the FOM to provide entrants for.

All the above is conjecture as FOM/FOTA/FIA contract details are somewhat more secret than almost anything on the planet.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:12 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 6):
I hope some of our older favorite drivers like Takuma Sato, Anthony Davidson get to drive I liked seeing Super Aguri in the lineup.

Well the German group that bought up the Super Aguri assets have now placed an entry - under the famous Brabham name. Interestingly another name from the past March is in there too. And another new bid is from N.Technology who ran Alfa Romeo's works touring car programme a few seasons back.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
BlueElephant
Posts: 1662
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:26 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75796
Mosley tells the FOTA to start their own League because their terms are not possible

N.Technology, Prodrive, Lola, USF1, Team Superfund, Epsilon-Euskadi, Campos Meta 1, Brabham and Litespeed (9 teams total) are on the list of new teams to have confirmed their applications for a place in Formula 1 next year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75812
The teams seek a new Solution not a new Series.
 
scrubbsywg
Posts: 1095
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:57 pm

hmmm. i think max is going to surprise everyone and not bring in any of the teams that signed up for 2010 under a demand for different rules(i think williams is the only one we didnt have). I think we will have williams and 9 new teams(and then there may be teams we dont know have applied). Apparently it is illigal according to FIA rules to sign up as part of a demand.

However, my above point fails to know how sound any of the new entries are. Some may be laughed at by the FIA in terms of their organization, facilities, or business plan.
 
waterpolodan
Posts: 1605
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:46 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:05 pm

Brabham??? I wonder if the brabham family has any ties at all to this team, or if it is just another spin off a la the Pan Am airline that has no affiliation whatsoever with the original.
 
scrubbsywg
Posts: 1095
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:45 pm



Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 13):
Brabham??? I wonder if the brabham family has any ties at all to this team, or if it is just another spin off a la the Pan Am airline that has no affiliation whatsoever with the original.

stories say the rights to the name have been sold and resold a number of times over the last 30 years. But apparently the family is looking at their legal avenues as well.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:01 am

Is Max on Crack or does he think the teams are stupid?

He is insisting the FOTA teams confirm their entries and then work with the FIA to change the rules for next year. His message is that it is only by having confirmed entries do those teams get a say in any changes to the rules.

Quoting Autosport:
"Under the International Sporting Code (Art. 66) we cannot now change the published 2010 rules unless we have the consent of all the competitors who have entered," wrote Mosley in the letter,

Who is he kidding, how is he going to get FOTA with their no(or high) cost cap, single tier competition philosophy and the new entrants and their lower budgets to unanimously agree on a set of rules?

.. or if the FOTA teams confirm will he accept the 10 teams entries and maintain the staus quo therefore hanging the new entrants out to dry, hopefully sending them a nice note thanking them for their roles as bargaining tools?

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:36 am



Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 13):
Brabham??? I wonder if the brabham family has any ties at all to this team, or if it is just another spin off a la the Pan Am airline that has no affiliation whatsoever with the original.

In the early 80's the Brabham team was owned by Bernie Ecclestone, the rights to the name had already left control of the Brabham family by then. Its a long time since anyone raced in F1 under the name, so there could be a very tangled history of ownership in the last 25 years or so.
 
BlueElephant
Posts: 1662
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:30 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 15):
Is Max on Crack or does he think the teams are stupid?

I think Max is scared now that he realizes he could lose a lot of money if the FOTA teams pulled out.

He may still have 8 or 9 teams, but for him and everyone else,

it's like giving up a Garage full of Maybachs, McLaren SLRs, Ferraris, Lambos, a couple Zondas, BMWs, Mercedes and some Maseratis....and replacing them with some Suzuki Swifts, Vauxhall Astras, and Ford Mondeos. (are these the right Euro names for these cars?sorry we don't get any of the cool cars small cheap cars in the States so I don't know the names of them)

It'll be interesting to see what happens...Max will have to alter his own rules (which he pretty much does for every race anyway)...if the FOTA teams are to comply. entering unconditionally only to find out that FOTA can't modify the rules would have some severe consequences.
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:17 am

What Max probably doesn't care about is that a number of the FOTA teams have been crucial to the building of the Formula One brand. No doubt Berine is in Maxs ear doing all he can to protect that brand. Anyone who has a passing interest in F1 will switch on next year and be dumb founded when their team and driver are missing and there's a bunch of nobodies driving around.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:01 am

Ironically the success of Brawn GP and Red Bull this year must certainly be playing into Max's hands or at least his thinking. Even though they are siding with the manufacturer teams (at the moment), they are dominating the front of the field and showing Max that the manufacturers are not everything. And having all those new teams queuing up to join makes his case stronger. Particularly given the current economic downturn and also heavier environmental pressures in the future means a manufacturer dominated sport can not bwe guaranteed going forward, regardless of the current arguments. The rumours of Toyota's withdrawl at the end of the year are not going away, and Renault too is still a serious doubt.

For all those who say how awful this would be (generally the younger generation) should remember that in effect a move back to a Formula One comprised primarily of teams whose sole purpose is to race (like Williams for example). It would actually resemble a very similar set up to the 1970s - which is often regarded as the greatest period of grand prix racing - certainly far superior to recent years.

It is also the era that both Max and Bernie were team owners themselves.....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:20 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 6):
I hope some of our older favorite drivers like Takuma Sato, Anthony Davidson get to drive I liked seeing Super Aguri in the lineup.

So this would be just about the same as Brawn buying off Zonda'?
I want the Aguris to stay Aguris. Taku and Davidson are two very capable drivers and very nice boys from what I know when I met them both in Monaco.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 17):
I think Max is scared now that he realizes he could lose a lot of money if the FOTA teams pulled out.

Are we going to have Tata, Skoda, Lada and Kia teams? Ha Ha...

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 18):
Anyone who has a passing interest in F1 will switch on next year and be dumb founded when their team and driver are missing and there's a bunch of nobodies driving around.

Oh I want them all to stay as far as I am concerned. This pretense "environmental" thing is crap and so hypocritical. I want the rules to go back to what they were in 2007 and 2008 seasons. That's it. 2009 rules don't do any good as far as I am concerned.

Is there any chances we might see some "off" F1 races in the near future with teams going astray from the Bernie/Max "mafia"?  Confused  Yeah sure
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:29 am

So only a few hours now until the big annoucement of who has been entered into the 2010 championship. I think that the FOTA teams will all be there along with Prodrive I'm not sure who will get the other two spots. However, given their recent history with the FIA, I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren were for some reason dropped from the list.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:08 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 17):
I think Max is scared now that he realizes he could lose a lot of money if the FOTA teams pulled out.

I thnk we can be sure that Bernie has the money side of things well under control, anyone who wants to host a race has to sign a multi year deal, and guarantee the money regardless of who turns up to race, likewise for the media rights.
Max and Bernie don't suffer when the crowds don't turn out, its the race promoters.

This is one of the problems of F1, in that tracks in countries with little support for F1, have paid vast sums to host races, which are then held at half empty tracks. Just look at Turkey, would the crowd have been so thin, if they had been racing at Magny Cours ?
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:17 am

FIA has released the 2010 entry list. The FOTA teams are there, though their entry is conditional on reaching an agreement with the FIA by the 19th of June. Surprisingly Prodrive was not submitted. Presumably because they have burnt the FIA once before.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76045
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:34 am

Only real surprise there was Manor GP. There were certainly one or two more likely new entrants such as Prodrive.....

That is assuming that none of the manufacturers pull the plug at the end of the season of course.... Renault still being heavily rumoured to do so....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:29 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 23):

Campos Grand Prix Campos Cosworth
Manor Grand Prix Manor Cosworth
Team US F1 Team US F1 Cosworth

 Wow!  Wow!  Wow!

What the heck?

Where are my Aguris?
Is Mc Laren going to be in?  Confused  Confused  Confused
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
threefourthree
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:23 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:37 am

"These five teams have submitted conditional entries.The FIA has invited them to lift those conditions following further discussions to be concluded not later than close of business on Friday 19 June."

So McLaren is one of htese teams, so this anti-climax will become a climax next week.
 
sudden
Posts: 3934
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:40 am



Quoting Cornish (Reply 10):
Well the German group that bought up the Super Aguri assets have now placed an entry - under the famous Brabham name



Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 13):
Brabham??? I wonder if the brabham family has any ties at all to this team

There has been lots of talks going on about using the brabham name, as the brabham family is not going to let the name be used just like that.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13375
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:41 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 23):
The FOTA teams are there, though their entry is conditional on reaching an agreement with the FIA by the 19th of June.

The FOTA teams seem to be split by the FIA. They seem to be saying that Ferrari, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Williams and Force India have confirmed entries by stint of previously signed contracts. This would mean that these teams, in the FIA's opinion, will race under a budget cap.

McLaren, Sauber, Renault, Toyota and Brawn submitted conditional applications. The FIA is "inviting" those teams to lift those conditions following further discussion to be concluded by this Friday (19th June).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
threefourthree
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:23 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:16 pm

Red Bull and Toro Rosso's agreement is from when the GPMA was still around, I believe.
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 28):
.

The FOTA teams seem to be split by the FIA. They seem to be saying that Ferrari, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Williams and Force India have confirmed entries by stint of previously signed contracts. This would mean that these teams, in the FIA's opinion, will race under a budget cap.

Well Williams and Force India, both lodged unconditional entries. My understanding is that Ferrari and Red Bull are contractually obliged to be there. So yes, it would be likely that these teams will race with a budget cap.

Quoting ThreeFourThree (Reply 29):
Red Bull and Toro Rosso's agreement is from when the GPMA was still around, I believe.

They were probably pressured by Ferrari to join since RBR were using Ferrari engines around that time.
 
TSV
Posts: 1604
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 12:13 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:19 pm

Not to sound like Pauline Hanson but could someone please explain how on earth a budget cap is going to be enforced?
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
threefourthree
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:23 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:02 am

This is what i think happens: they show their financial records, if they find they lie, constructors point disappear or they are banned from the sport and sponsors are very unhappy.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:37 am

There have been meetings and correspondence this week between the main protagonists in F1 and it appears that the chances of a split and breakaway series are growing by the day.

The constructors(FOTA) may have some issues with the FIA and FOM over governance and finances but I am starting to side with the FIA on this(never thought I would be writing this).

The FIA and FOM have developed F1 over many decades into the planet's premiere motorsports series(perhaps even premiere sport overall).
The constructors that make up FOTA comprise mostly dilletantes that come and go from the sport at the whim of their management or marketing gurus. That includes Ferrari, sure they have been around for the history of F1 but a less sport friendly regime in the board room at FIAT could see that change in a heartbeat despite what the tifosi would like to think.(we have already seen Honda come & go more than once, Renault more than likely to follow suit... and not for the first time)
The FIA must find a way to ensure F1 stays the leading motorsport... if that drives the manufacturers away then so be it
It seems the drivers have started to drink the manufacturers Kool-Aid..

Quoting Mark Webber in Autosport:
For the sake of the sport, the main constructors and people who have the real vision believe they need to take a stand.

Gimme a break Mark.. the only vision the manufacturers have is the bottom line $ from their business ventures..they have no vision for F1 and are at the mercy of market forces, absolutely no regard for F1 or the sport.

A cost limited regime that brings back the "garagistas" such as Williams and similar is perhaps a good thing....
Teams such as Williams that actually rely on racing for their existance are a good thing and should be encouraged rather that used as a bargaining chip against the soulless manufacturers. Bring on the Lolas, Prodrive etc...
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:20 am

So FOTA have placed their cards on the table.

I guess the F1 action for the foreseeable future will centre around boardrooms & courtrooms.

Is it possible that the manufacturers have been maneuvering this situation as a means to pull out of the sport without the stigma of "financial crisis"?
Is it difficult to see management of Mercedes, BMW Renault, Toyota etc, when faced with some of the withering litigation Bernie E and his fascist friend would be capable of, just throwing their hands in the air and walking away completely...certainly a strong possibility!

Kind of curious that a little over a year ago all but one team principal(and he is gone) were in favour of a cost cap. Max may have overplayed his hand a little with what was seen as a two tier series but in recent weeks has wound that concept back to something very similar to what was discussed early in 2008 yet the "suits" are still playing hard ball, one has to ask why?

Regards
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
sudden
Posts: 3934
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:27 pm

I must say that I think it's good that FOTA is doing this, and I hope they are serious.
Even with the new entries for next year, I think the F1 series will die pretty fast cause of the fact that the major teams and drivers will be somewhere else battling it out on the tracks.
Or maybe it will survive just because it's a low budget version(?)


By the way,
Ron Dennis has no involvement at all with F1 anymore as his new baby is the new road car that Mclaren will develop and build.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:39 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 35):
Ron Dennis has no involvement at all with F1 anymore as his new baby is the new road car that Mclaren will develop and build.

I wonder what sort of argument Ron would be getting into with Max right about now. I think a season ban for McLaren would mysteriously come about he Ron were still in control.
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009 - General Issues

Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:28 am

I guess this just proves that KERS was a waste of time and money for everyone involved.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76402

BMW are right. KERS should have been made mandatory and maybe people would have bothered with it a bit more.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: An767, Bing [Bot] and 9 guests