L410Turbolet
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Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:32 pm

Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

Russia has accused Poland of provoking the outbreak of the Second World War by refusing to accede to the "very modest" demands of Nazi Germany.

The Russian defence ministry posted a potentially inflammatory essay on its website which claimed Poland resisted Germany's ultimatums in 1939 only because it "wanted to obtain the status of a great power".

The lengthy diatribe, which is unlikely to be welcomed in Warsaw, also lashed out at Britain and France for giving the Poles "delusions of grandeur" by promising to intercede if the Nazis invaded...

...Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, last month created a commission to identify foreign "revisionists" who disparage the country's prestige and "falsify" its history...

...It also attacked the Western press for suggesting that the Soviet Union carried some blame for the War by its alliance with Hitler under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, which carved up Europe into two spheres of influence to be headed by Hitler and Stalin.

"No representatives of a Western democracy has the right to discuss any treaty between the Soviet Union and Germany," given that Neville Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement of 1938 giving Germany control of the Sudetenland.

As for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Col Kovalev wrote, it was merely a time-buying mechanism after Britain refused to sign a mutual defence treaty with the Soviet Union.

Under the pact the Soviet Union took control of two-thirds of Poland as well as the Baltic states, but only, he wrote, in order to create a buffer zone that would allow Moscow to marshal its defences ahead of an inevitable war with the Third Reich.

Under planned legislation, backed by Mr Medvedev, any Russian or foreigner who claims that the Soviet Union occupied Poland or the Baltic States could face up to five years in prison.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-of-starting-Second-World-War.html

Thoughts, comments?
I am probably the last one to be surprised by anything that comes from Kremlin or underestimate its entertainment value, but this accusation really IS absurd and how much Russia is increasing the official denial about its past is really worrying.
sidenote: This only highlights how any effort to legislate interpretation of history is totalitarian and most of all counterproductive [e.g. "holocaust denial" legislation in certain European countries (mine notwithstanding)].
 
RussianJet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:52 pm

Hang on a second, is it 'posted an essay on the defence ministry website' or 'accused'? Two very different things, regardless of what your personal feelings may be about Russia. Russia has not publically come out and made any such accusation.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:13 pm

a) The Telegraph chose such headline, not me.
b) I think it's only logical to assume that since it's posted on government ministry's website it reflects the official policy. Had it been an editorial or opinion piece in "Pravda" I would not even bother to mention it.
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A332
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
Russia has not publically come out and made any such accusation.

So the fact the Russian Defense Ministry posted it means what exactly?
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Falcon84
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:28 pm

The Russians defending the Nazi's? Who killed how many untold Russians? And for what reason would Russia do this? To try and provoke another fight with Poland-a NATO member, I might add?

The Russians are getting too cocky for their own britches in recent years. They may reap something they never intended.

What utter nonsense.
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Phoenix9
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:30 pm

Just one question: Why are they digging up the old corpses again? (no pun intended)
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steeler83
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:38 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 5):

Just one question: Why are they digging up the old corpses again?

Yeah really... That was what, almost 70 years ago exactly?

And Poland starting WWII? Last time I checked, Hitler and his band of rejects and whack jobs destroyed that country beginning on 1 September 1939. They were annihilated, so it's their fault that such a beating started the war...

Ok...
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RussianJet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:02 pm



Quoting A332 (Reply 3):
So the fact the Russian Defense Ministry posted it means what exactly?

That they're putting it out there for consideration, not that it is the position of the state - otherwise the state would say that that was it's position.
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Mir
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:05 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
That they're putting it out there for consideration

You don't put something out there for consideration unless you believe it has some merit.

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bravo45
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:14 pm

The amazing fact everyone forgets in this story is that the French and the British who declared war in defence of Poland ended the war after signing away Poland to the Soviet Union.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:17 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 5):
Why are they digging up the old corpses again?

I don't know. Maybe it's a pure coincidence, but the only remotely relevant reason that I can think of is the fact that June 4th is when the final act of communism in C&E Europe began with free elections being held in Poland 20 years ago.
Since according to comrade Putin fall of communism and USSR was the "biggest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century" and Poland has done most of the "heavy lifting" in bringing the regime down in the then-Soviet bloc, ever since the Solidarity strikes in Gdansk shipyards in early 1980s they feel they should spoil the fun to Poles and others by grabbing the attention.
But I could be overstretching it.

What is also worth pointing out is the rather strange logic of reasoning in that essay under which on one hand Polish (armed) resistance to Hitler's territorial demands iwa bad and caused WW2 but surrendering Sudetenland couple months earlier was bad just as much. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Also, it was the coward-in-chief Benes and the Czechoslovak government who surrendered Sudetenland + rest of the territory (and high quality weaponry) w/o firing a shot, not Chameberlain - who as much as I despise him - only co-signed a paper.The Czechoslovak still had the option to grow a backbone and tell Neville & Co. to shove the Munich Treaty up their....)
And putting on the same moral level Chamberlain's appeasment of Hitler and Stalin's alliance with Hitler resulting in invading half of Poland and sending countless to gulags is beyond ridiculous.
Last but not least, WW2 paved the way to Soviet conquest of half of Europe for the next 40 years, so what are they complaining about? The price ordinary Russians paid in terms of human lives lost was terrible, but that has never been a factor in the chambers of Kremlin.
 
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:29 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
The Russians defending the Nazi's? Who killed how many untold Russians?



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 6):
Last time I checked, Hitler and his band of rejects and whack jobs destroyed that country beginning on 1 September 1939. They were annihilated,

Not entirely related to this topic but Nazism has become popular in Russia. As I mentioned in these threads before, skinhead killings, beatings and vandalizing of Synagogues are almost a daily occurrence in Russia today.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 10):
Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 5):
Why are they digging up the old corpses again?

I don't know. Maybe it's a pure coincidence, but the only remotely relevant reason that I can think of is the fact that June 4th is when the final act of communism in C&E Europe began with free elections being held in Poland 20 years ago.
Since according to comrade Putin fall of communism and USSR was the "biggest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century" and Poland has done most of the "heavy lifting" in bringing the regime down in the then-Soviet bloc, ever since the Solidarity strikes in Gdansk shipyards in early 1980s they feel they should spoil the fun to Poles and others by grabbing the attention.
But I could be overstretching it.

I was thinking the same. Even if that were the case, why can't they just let it go? It's all history now.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:31 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
That they're putting it out there for consideration, not that it is the position of the state - otherwise the state would say that that was it's position.

Oh come on, that guy is not that stupid to gamble his professional career by making government website an arena where he presents his private opinions. It's hard to think this has been done without an official blessing.
If the guy just wanted to start a debate without the Russian government being implicated in the affair, he would publish an opinion piece in a Russian daily of his choice, The Moscow Times, Foreign Affairs or whatever Russian equivalent there is.
 
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:12 am

Never thought i will agree with L410Turbolet, but i think the timing has something behind it. Is Russia blaming Poland for the fall of communism? Is it an act of revenge or is it a prelude for another tension point a la Georgia?
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Falcon84
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:53 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Quoting A332 (Reply 3):
So the fact the Russian Defense Ministry posted it means what exactly?


That they're putting it out there for consideration, not that it is the position of the state - otherwise the state would say that that was it's position.

Consideration for what? To somehow revise the brutal history of the Soviet Union during the Second World War? The Nazi's aren't the only one's that slaughtered millions in the war. The USSR killed many Germans, Poles, Slavs, Jews, etc. under Stalin's butchery. They were the ones that divided Poland up with the Germans, only to have Germany turn on them.

I've always said, and I still maintain, that the USSR does not get enough credit in the West for the incredible feat they pulled off on the Eastern Front, but they have their own skeletons, literally, that they hide.

If this is meant to deny that history, and to rewrite it to sooth the conscience of Russians, the rest of the world won't buy it.
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iliribdl
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:56 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
The amazing fact everyone forgets in this story is that the French and the British who declared war in defence of Poland ended the war after signing away Poland to the Soviet Union.

They ended up giving most of Eastern Europe to Soviet Union, which led to another 40+ years of hard times for people in those countries.
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Mir
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:56 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 13):
is it a prelude for another tension point a la Georgia?

The idea that a smaller country can be to blame for starting a massive war because they refused to accept a larger country's "reasonable" demands can't make countries like Georgia feel very comfortable.

-Mir
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:53 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
The Russians defending the Nazi's? Who killed how many untold Russians?

Well, the Russians did have a non-aggression pact with the Nazis, which is why they never intervened in Poland until Hitler decided to go ahead with Operation Barbarossa, and the Soviets later crushed the Wehrmacht in Stalingrad.

Poland was responsible for its own fate. They knew what the Nazis wanted, they were aware of the Nazi policy of getting more "Lebensraum" in the East and reconquer lost territories. They had no reason to accept the demands the Nazis made. And also, historical facts show that it was the Nazis who started WWII on September 1st 1939, not the Polish.
 
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:58 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
Poland was responsible for its own fate.

Germany and Russia were responsible for the fate that befell Poland, not Poland. They were warred on by two much larger nations. Unfortunately, they never got their just revenge on the USSR for helping to carve them up.
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iliribdl
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:21 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
And also, historical facts show that it was the Nazis who started WWII on September 1st 1939, not the Polish.

WWII started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.
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Phoenix9
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:24 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
If this is meant to deny that history, and to rewrite it to sooth the conscience of Russians, the rest of the world won't buy it.

Or as they say....Those who forget history are bound to repeat it. WIth the current world climate where states like North Korea, Iran, the general unrest in the middle east, a possibility of civil unrest in Pakistan and Russia starting to oil their military machine again....I sometimes wonder how far we really are from WW-III.
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Falcon84
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:26 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 20):
WWII started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.

In many ways, you are right. The terms were so crushing to Germany, that it invited the rise of a Hitler, and another conflict. I cannot disagree.
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LTU932
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:29 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 20):
WWII started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.

Probably, considering that only the Germans were harshly punished, thus causing all the resent that helped lead to WWII. We have to remember: Officially, it was the Austro-Hungarians who started the "Great War" after Gavrilo Princip assassinated their crown prince Franz-Ferdinand.

Another thing is that the Nazis used November 1918 as part of their propaganda, by using this resent against those who imposed themselves with the most harsh conditions that the Versailles Treaty made to the Germans of the then-young Republic.
 
OlegShv
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:02 am

It seems that the Russian government is trying to build up nationalistic moods during the economic hard times, which is an old tried tactic. This is definitely sad.

On the other hand, quote from the Telegraph's article:

Quote:
Germany invaded Poland on Sept 1, 2009, prompting the British Empire and France to declare war over the next two days. Germany and the Soviet Union then carved up Poland under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

That tells quite a bit about the quality of journalism.

I actually went to the Russian defense ministry website, and they officially state that the articles hosted on their server can be of "debatable nature," and do not reflect the official views of the Russian DoD. This is a link to that statement that also quotes the article mentioned by the Telegraph: http://www.mil.ru/info/1069/details/index.shtml?id=63460

Here is the article in question (I didn't bother reading it yet): Looks like it was published in July of 2008, in the "Journal of Military History", which is actually published by the Russian DoD, and it is meant to disseminate results of historical research and other ongoing issues related to the Russian and foreign military forces.

С.Н. КОВАЛЁВ — Вымыслы и фальсификации в оценках роли ссср накануне и с началом Второй мировой войны

http://www.mil.ru/info/1068/11278/11845/25231/46968/52839/index.shtml

[Edited 2009-06-04 21:11:28]
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:53 am

Ooh does the main victor of the second world war point out a few points of themselves. To be honest, every country have their own version and interpretations of the world wars. Just go to Britain and you almost reckon that we won the war ourselves.
Americans think they played a great military role in world war I even and as everyone knows that's extremely far from the truth.

World War II was won on the eastern front by the Soviets. We all know this.
But the Soviets used their victory to control countries and people in Eastern Europe and the allies, the ones that just overcame 20% of nazi germanys forces and knew that the Soviets fresh from a victory over 80% of the wehrmacht was not to be messed with. general patton said that only half the job was done. he was right, but there was nothing the west could do about it at that stage.
And under soviet, instead of dealing with the war and its huge aftermaths in Eastern Europe, the conflict was frozen.

This is a Poland, or should I say Poland under the twins, thats been mouthing off to everyone in Europe. This is Poland the main sponsor or the separatist movement in Western ukraine. This is poland Europes only fan of Georgia and the only country in the EU that constantly wants tougher actions against Russia.
Russia is not going to let that pass.

And as it is now, Poland doesn't have support any in Europe.
When Lisbon treaty was negotiated they wanted more, more and more and the reason for it was the second world war.
A poor Poland that only receives subsidies and sends its people abroad "en masse" demanded as many EU parliamentarians as the much more populous and financially contributing countries such as Germany and France. Everyone just shook their heads.
Then they insulted the Germans, the hosts, having a go at them for the second world war.
Poland today is as far out as anyone can get.
They have a new PM but it will take years to repair the damages made.

And a few things to start with if they want anyone to listen to them
Then they refuse to sign the Lisbon-treaty and a few other things. Installing a US missile shield and in general doing their best to disagree with everything their neighbours want.

In general there wont be a queue to assist them with anything at the moment and most countries are rather unhappy at best with Poland.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:32 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 25):
This is a Poland, or should I say Poland under the twins, thats been mouthing off to everyone in Europe. .

The twins have been no more abnoxious than trolls like Chirac, Sarkozy, Schroeder or Berlusconi.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 25):
This is Poland the main sponsor or the separatist movement in Western ukraine. This is poland Europes only fan of Georgia and the only country in the EU that constantly wants tougher actions against Russia.

beside the fact that you are way off the mark with your observation as Poland being "the only" your point is...?

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 25):
A poor Poland that only receives subsidies and sends its people abroad "en masse" demanded as many EU parliamentarians as the much more populous and financially contributing countries such as Germany and France. Everyone just shook their heads.

Dude, stop being ridiculous and embarassing yourself by mixing apples and oranges. What does representation in EP have to do with number of people working abroad? Poland "sends" people abroad... Really? I though they don't have to ask governement permission to enjoy free movement of labor.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 25):
Then they refuse to sign the Lisbon-treaty and a few other things.

So did French, Dutch and Irish. Once again... your point?

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 25):

And as it is now, Poland doesn't have support any in Europe.



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 25):
most countries are rather unhappy at best with Poland

Nonsense, but I guess someone from New Zealand knows better...  Yeah sure
Frankly, I don't see what this diatribe on the topic of "I get my panties in a bunch over Poland" has to do with Russian denial about its past?
 
RussianJet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:20 am



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 24):
Looks like it was published in July of 2008, in the "Journal of Military History", which is actually published by the Russian DoD, and it is meant to disseminate results of historical research and other ongoing issues related to the Russian and foreign military forces.

Indeed, yet the way many are carrying on you would think it was recently announced as official fact and written into every school book about the second world war. I suspect you will also find other esays and studies presenting rather different views written by Russians, but not every one of those will get a sensationalisd and overblown article written about it.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
Nonsense, but I guess someone from New Zealand knows better... Yeah sure

What, we dismiss people's views for coming from a far away country now??
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L-188
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:43 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
The Russians defending the Nazi's? Who killed how many untold Russians? And for what reason would Russia do this? To try and provoke another fight with Poland-a NATO member, I might add?

The non-aggression pact was mentioned here earlier, but it really was more then that. Germany and Russia had an agreement to split Poland up prior to the war and there was a fairly significant amount of co-operation between the two countries from about the mid-30's on.

Hitler incinerated the bridge however when he tossed it and launched Barbarossa.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
Germany and Russia were responsible for the fate that befell Poland, not Poland.

Agree completely.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 24):
World War II was won on the eastern front by the Soviets. We all know this.

I don't remember hearing about too many Soviet troops on Guadacanal, Midway, Saipan, Okinawa, Iwo-Jima ect.

I agree they owned the eastern front, but I will not give them credit for winning the entire war.
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Falcon84
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:35 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 24):
World War II was won on the eastern front by the Soviets. We all know this.

I don't remember hearing about too many Soviet troops on Guadacanal, Midway, Saipan, Okinawa, Iwo-Jima ect.

I think he means the war in EUROPE was won by what the USSR did on the Eastern Front, and I cannot argue that point in the least. Remember, we didn't even get to the Continent till mid 1944, and the Russians had been fighting on the Eastern Front for 3 years by that time. The bombing campaign by the US and Britian played a large role in helping defeat Germany, but the lion's share of the credit has to go to the Soviets. Unfortunately, that is something we here in the States, thanks to the Cold War, have been very slow in admitting.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:42 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
think he means the war in EUROPE was won by what the USSR did on the Eastern Front, and I cannot argue that point in the least. Remember, we didn't even get to the Continent till mid 1944, and the Russians had been fighting on the Eastern Front for 3 years by that time.

Let us not forget that the US supplied ca. 11 billion dollars worth of war matériel to the USSR under the lend lease programme.
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OlegShv
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:01 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 29):
Let us not forget that the US supplied ca. 11 billion dollars worth of war matériel to the USSR under the lend lease programme.

And about ca. 31 billion dollars worth of goods to Britain. Notice a difference?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:20 pm



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 30):
And about ca. 31 billion dollars worth of goods to Britain.

What's your point?
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LTU932
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:51 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
Germany and Russia were responsible for the fate that befell Poland, not Poland.

The point is that until the invasion of Poland and until the communists took power, it was responsible for its own fate and therefore had to act. The fact that they were no longer in control of their own fate for over 50 years was a consequence of war.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:59 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 29):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
think he means the war in EUROPE was won by what the USSR did on the Eastern Front, and I cannot argue that point in the least. Remember, we didn't even get to the Continent till mid 1944, and the Russians had been fighting on the Eastern Front for 3 years by that time.

Let us not forget that the US supplied ca. 11 billion dollars worth of war matériel to the USSR under the lend lease programme.

That is true, but it was in no way the difference-maker for the USSR. Being able to move their factories ever eastward as the Germans got deeper into Russia, and being able to pull 40 divisions of the Siberians out of their ass, unbeknownst to the Germans, had a lot to do with it. Plus the fact that Stalin, even being the murderer he was, rendered a valuable service to the USSR by telling the people to fight not for him, or communism, but for the Rodina, for the Motherland. Had he said "fight for the state", the Russians would have collapsed, but he said "fight for your homes", and that steeled the nerves fo the Soviet People.

Our aid was welcome, I'm sure, but it wasn't what tipped the scales.

Of course the other thing is, like Napoleon before him, Hitler found out that Russia wasn't very easy to swallow up.
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:21 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Remember, we didn't even get to the Continent till mid 1944, and the Russians had been fighting on the Eastern Front for 3 years by that time.

The Italian campaign started almost a year before that in July of '43. I believe that Italy is considered part of the "continent", correct? Besides, in addition to getting ready for an invasion of Europe, the US had its hands full in the Pacific from 1941 on. Besides, I don't know what you call "get to the Continent" but the 8th Air Force was indeed "getting" to the continent from '43 on as well as other bomber commands operating out of North Africa.

I'm not saying that we won the war, singlehandedly, but our participation certainly made for the outcome there was, as well as our war production. We had plenty of men that died, either in the Merchant Marine in the convoys or doing escort duty with the convoys with the Navy.

Matter of fact, we fought on more fronts during the war than did the Soviets.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:07 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
but it was in no way the difference-maker for the USSR

I think you underestimate the importance of our support to the USSR.

"Lend-lease aircraft amounted to 18% of all aircraft in the Soviet air forces, 20% of all bombers, and 16-23% of all fighters (numbers vary depending on calculation methods), and 29% of all naval aircraft. In some AF commands and fronts the proportion of Lend-Lease aircraft was even higher: of the 9.888 fighters delivered to the air defense (PVO) fighter units in 1941-45 6.953 (or over 70%!) were British or American. In the AF of the Karelian front lend-lease aircraft amounted to about two-thirds of all combat aircraft in 1942-43, practically all torpedo bombers of the naval air forces were A-20G Bostons in 1944-45 etc.

In addition to the aircraft deliveries American Lend-lease deliveries to Russia included also more than 400.000 trucks, over 12.000 tanks and other combat vehicles, 32.000 motorcycles, 13.000 locomotives and railway cars, 8.000 anti-aircraft cannons and machine-guns, 135.000 submachine guns, 300.000 tons of explosives, 40.000 field radios, some 400 radar systems, 400.000 metal cutting machi­ne tools, several million tons of foodstuff, steel, other metals, oil and gasoline, chemicals etc.."

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...cles/geust/aircraft_deliveries.htm
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:21 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
I think he means the war in EUROPE was won by what the USSR did on the Eastern Front, and I cannot argue that point in the least. Remember, we didn't even get to the Continent till mid 1944, and the Russians had been fighting on the Eastern Front for 3 years by that time.

The soldiers who went into Italy in 1943 would beg to differ Falcon. And it wasn't like we weren't fighting the Germans until then. We were fighting the Germans (and the Vichy French) in Africa from the start of US entry into the war.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 19):
WWII started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
Of course the other thing is, like Napoleon before him, Hitler found out that Russia wasn't very easy to swallow up.

That's because time has not been able to kill off Russia's two greatest Generals - General January and General February. Maybe some countries looking to take over Russia will get some help from global warming though.  wink 
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:41 pm

It makes you wonder sometimes what European children have been taught about history over the years. We had an exchange student from Denmark that had no idea that the U.S. was ever even involved in the war. She said that they were never taught that, at all.

On the other hand, I wonder about the history that is taught to the kids in the states. My daughter once took a course of "Ancient World History" in high school and I was looking at her textbook and it barely mentioned the Greeks and it almost seemed like, to them, history started with the Romans.
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:03 pm



Quoting Mayor (Reply 37):
It makes you wonder sometimes what European children have been taught about history over the years. We had an exchange student from Denmark that had no idea that the U.S. was ever even involved in the war. She said that they were never taught that, at all.

First off, Europe isn't one country - the educational experiences throughout the continent vary hugely. Secondly, I bet you any amount of money that such examples of ignorance can be found in practically any country. One Danish student and a rogue Russian essay is not enough to write off an entire continent's knowledge.
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:17 am



Quoting Mayor (Reply 37):
It makes you wonder sometimes what European children have been taught about history over the years. We had an exchange student from Denmark that had no idea that the U.S. was ever even involved in the war. She said that they were never taught that, at all.

For sure that isn't typical. But good for her that she became an exchange student in the US. Otherwise I'm not sure the alphabet would be long enough for her final grades.

Of course the most interesting part war history will always be what happened inside ones own country. And it happened so that general Eisenhower left it to the British to liberate Denmark from nazi occupation. We never saw US troops on Danish soil. It was also the duty of the RAF to deliver weapons to the Danish partisans. The partisan instructors ("parachute men" in Danish language) were also all British. Therefore a very ignorant student, who only reads pictures, may assume that WW2 was an event involving Britain, Germany and Denmark only. I wouldn't deny that.

On the other hand, detailed Danish language documentation of the Pacipic part of WW2 doesn't come easy. Danes in general can mention Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima, but often it ends there. What happened in between is rather foggy for many Danes.

We have all met young students who know surpricingly little about subjects which should be obvious knowledge for everyone. Slightly off topic, I once read how many percent of US students could actually find Denmark on a world map. I don't remember the figure, but it was far far away for fifty percent, on the low side. I'm sure Danish students are better when it comes to pinpointing the US on the world map.  Smile
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:43 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):

I don't remember hearing about too many Soviet troops on Guadacanal, Midway, Saipan, Okinawa, Iwo-Jima ect.
I agree they owned the eastern front, but I will not give them credit for winning the entire war.

You are of course right, I should have worded it better.
The Soviets won the battle against the Nazis for us.
The pacific was a very different theatre and so was the war against Japan.

The US was very important as an industrial and financial hub though and I argue that its that contribution that were their most important one in Europe. But that's for another post.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):

So did French, Dutch and Irish. Once again... your point?

No, thats wrong. Both the French and the Dutch approved Lisbon. Its only been the Irish voters that have rejected it. They get another opportunity in 2009.
Here is a good link to learn more about the treaty of Lisbon:
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/index_en.htm

My point is otherwise that if one person negotiates a treaty that all EU countries agrees on and then one year later refuses to sign that same treaty he doesn't win popularity points and he makes sure his country looses influence.
Its very simple really.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
The twins have been no more abnoxious than trolls like Chirac, Sarkozy, Schroeder or Berlusconi.

Ok so I get you right, we have the twins and you reckon they are on the same page as Chirac and Schroeder. Two leaders that led Europe through to the Euro and through to becoming a more integrated economy.
Two leaders winning elections several times in Europe's most populous countries and serving their full periods.
Hmm lets now compare that to the twins.

I havent even started in international recognition or prestige.
Lets put it nicely. I disagree with you and without being to cocky I wont be the only one.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
Nonsense, but I guess someone from New Zealand knows better...

A I am not from New Zealand. I work here for one more week though.
After that I will change to a yellow, white, red and black flag.
B I have been a EU citizen for a few decades.
C Even if I would have been from New Zealand I must say that I cant see why my view would have carried less weight.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
Dude, stop being ridiculous and embarassing yourself by mixing apples and oranges. What does representation in EP have to do with number of people working abroad? Poland "sends" people abroad... Really? I though they don't have to ask governement permission to enjoy free movement of labor.

I am embarrassing myself. Why is that? because I disagree with you?
My point is that Poland is a net receiver of money. They receive more than what they pay.
The other countries are contributors of money. They give more than what they receive.
The more you pay, the more importance your word carries. Its quite simple and if you disagree on it please state why and how and dont come with personal attacks.

If you have 20 million less people, dont contribute financially and your economy is in such a state that you need to send millions abroad its hard to argue that you should be seen on the same level as net contributors with minimum 20 million more people...

Now let me correct you on a simple fact.
The freedom of movement for people within the EU.
Its not free for everyone.
You see most original EU countries were scared that when the enlargement of 2004 took place they would see millions of people from Eastern Europe rushing to find jobs and apply for welfare in their countries.
The EU recognised this and allowed these countries to ban citizens from the enlargement countries of 2004 from entry to the labour market if they saw the need for it.
Most did.
Thats why Poles only could go to work in Britain, Ireland and Sweden after Poland joined the EU and that's why they still cant go to Austria and Germany.

Those fears were unfounded in most cases. It was only poles that left their countries in big numbers.
Thats why we see air traffic to so many small polish cities from provincial Britain. The poles generally took up jobs no one wanted in Britain so they have for the most been very welcomed and is seen as hard working people that is assisting Britain.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
beside the fact that you are way off the mark with your observation as Poland being "the only" your point is...?

Hmm, perhaps you can show any other country that reckons Georgia was important?
Or any other EU country that contributed heavily to Western Ukraine?
Or why Sarkozy went to Russia and what he said in Moscow during the Russian-Gerogrian conflict.

Its always easier to debate with facts...

Nordstream is another such issue.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 25):
Frankly, I don't see what this diatribe on the topic of "I get my panties in a bunch over Poland" has to do with Russian denial about its past?

Its nice that you feel strongly about Poland and about this issue but pls try to use facts in your arguments instead of emotions.
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:59 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
The Soviets won the battle against the Nazis for us.

Did the Soviets liberate France? Denmark, Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy? I'd be hard pressed to actually say that the Soviets "liberated" anyone, as those people just traded one dictatorship for another.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
The US was very important as an industrial and financial hub though and I argue that its that contribution that were their most important one in Europe.

There are many U.S. servicemen that lost their lives in Europe and are buried there that would dispute what you said about their "contribution" if they could. How can you dispute that and say that the U.S. contribution was mostly financially and industrially in the European theater? That's an insult to all of those that lost their lives there.


Matter of fact, the other allied forces could have easily reached Berlin, first, before the Soviets, but because of political "expediancy", they were held back to allow the Soviets to get there first, just as De Gaulle was allowed to ride into Paris, first, as the "Great Liberator" even though he had spent the entire war in Britain and didn't get to the continent until just before Paris' liberation.

[Edited 2009-06-06 08:09:09]
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:19 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 38):

First off, Europe isn't one country - the educational experiences throughout the continent vary hugely. Secondly, I bet you any amount of money that such examples of ignorance can be found in practically any country. One Danish student and a rogue Russian essay is not enough to write off an entire continent's knowledge.

I was just using the term European to make things simpler and I wasn't trying to condemn the entire continent about their knowledge. If you care to read my entire post, you'll see that I don't exactly think that our children are educated enough about history, either. These were just examples, of which I'm familiar. She was an excellent student, as all of our exchange students were.....Finland, Greece, Germany, Denmark, Japan, Norway. They can be excellent students while not being given all the facts, however. It just surprised me when she said that and wondered if all European students were the same.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 39):
Of course the most interesting part war history will always be what happened inside ones own country. And it happened so that general Eisenhower left it to the British to liberate Denmark from nazi occupation. We never saw US troops on Danish soil. It was also the duty of the RAF to deliver weapons to the Danish partisans. The partisan instructors ("parachute men" in Danish language) were also all British. Therefore a very ignorant student, who only reads pictures, may assume that WW2 was an event involving Britain, Germany and Denmark only. I wouldn't deny that.

On the other hand, detailed Danish language documentation of the Pacipic part of WW2 doesn't come easy. Danes in general can mention Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima, but often it ends there. What happened in between is rather foggy for many Danes.

Excellent explanation. Thank you.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 39):
We have all met young students who know surpricingly little about subjects which should be obvious knowledge for everyone. Slightly off topic, I once read how many percent of US students could actually find Denmark on a world map. I don't remember the figure, but it was far far away for fifty percent, on the low side. I'm sure Danish students are better when it comes to pinpointing the US on the world map.

Isn't that the truth. I still believe that education begins at home. If the parents aren't interested, obviously the children will not be, either. Luckily, my daughter got to travel with us to many places and her teachers encouraged it. I think she's a much more well rounded adult, today, because of it.
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:44 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
The Soviets won the battle against the Nazis for us.



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
The US was very important as an industrial and financial hub though and I argue that its that contribution that were their most important one in Europe.

On this particular day June 6th, the 65th anniversary of D-Day, maybe you should think about the Americans, British and Canadians that lost their lives on the beaches of Normandy and then re-think what you stated above.
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:40 am



Quoting Mayor (Reply 41):
Did the Soviets liberate France? Denmark, Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy? I'd be hard pressed to actually say that the Soviets "liberated" anyone, as those people just traded one dictatorship for another.

The point is that 80% of the wehrmacht were fighting on the eastern front.
Thats where the battle was won or would have been lost.

The Soviets were in Germany before the allies landed at Normandy.
More than 50% of the troops manning the Atlantic had been sent to the eastern front by the time the allies decided to invade.

The invasion at Normandy sped up the battle but in the end the battle was won on the eastern front.
the US most important role in Europes WWII was of course as a banker and a country to far away to be reached by bombings. That meant the US could produce war materials at full speed and those materials were of great importance to the British, the Soviets and the Anzacs.

Without the enormous sacrifices by the Soviets we would have been Nazis today.

And yes it was liberation. Without it there wouldnt have been any jews left in Europe nor gypsies and probably hardly any slavs.

Unfortunately it also gave Eastern Europe to another dictatorship.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 41):
Matter of fact, the other allied forces could have easily reached Berlin, first, before the Soviets, but because of political "expediancy", they were held back to allow the Soviets to get there first, just as De Gaulle was allowed to ride into Paris, first, as the "Great Liberator" even though he had spent the entire war in Britain and didn't get to the continent until just before Paris' liberation.

Lovely another myth.
No the allies couldn't have liberated Berlin before the Soviets.
One panzer generals comments about crossing the Elbe doesn't mean the allies could have reached Berlin.
How much time was actually lost by having De Gaulle marching in Paris? Hardly any.
Patton was however right with his conclusions, the job was only half done, but thats another discussion.
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baroque
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
The amazing fact everyone forgets in this story is that the French and the British who declared war in defence of Poland ended the war after signing away Poland to the Soviet Union.

Oi, not everyone.  wink  Some remember all too well the struggle of the London Poles and the shock in the west at the imposition of the Lublin government. Also remember the efforts to support the Warsaw uprising obstructed at every turn by Russia.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 19):
WWI I started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.

Er well, not really that day, but the period from 11/11/1918 to that day when the Allies renigged on just about every condition that Germany had agreed to for the Armistice. In particular the systematic alteration of the conditions in the Wilson terms.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 35):
than 400.000 trucks

You forgot the boots. It appears that most of the other items were not influential, but trucks and boots were.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
The Soviets won the battle against the Nazis for us.
The pacific was a very different theatre and so was the war against Japan.

One of the oddities that will never be resolved is why the Japanese surrendered. The west likes to think it was atomic bombs, but there is a 50% chance it was terror at what happened to their Manchurian army within a week of the start of the Soviet campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm

The operation was carried out as a classic double pincer movement over an area the size of Western Europe. In the western pincer, the Red Army advanced over the deserts and mountains from Mongolia, far from their resupply railways. This confounded the Japanese military analysis of Soviet logistics, and the defenders were caught by surprise in unfortified positions. The Japanese commander was missing for the first eighteen hours of conflict, and communication was lost with forward units very early on. At the same time, Soviet airborne units were used to seize airfields and city centers in advance of the land forces, and to ferry fuel to those units that had outrun their supply lines.

After a week of fighting, during which Soviet forces were already penetrating deep into Manchukuo, Japan's Emperor Hirohito read the Gyokuon-hōsō on August 15, 1945 and declared a ceasefire in the region the next day. The Soviets continued their largely unopposed advance, reaching Mukden, Changchun and Qiqihar by August 20. On the Soviet right flank, the Soviet-Mongolian Cavalry-Mechanized Group had entered Inner Mongolia and quickly took Dolon Nur and Kalgan. The Emperor of Manchukuo (and former Emperor of China), Puyi, was captured by the Soviet Red Army.
....
Japan's decision to surrender was made before the scale of the Soviet attack on Manchuria, Sakhalin, and the Kurils was known[10], but had the war continued, the Soviets had plans to invade Hokkaidō well before the other Allied invasion of Kyushu.[11][12]

Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings were not the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, he contends, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories on the mainland in the week following Joseph Stalin's August 8 declaration of war that forced the Japanese message of surrender on August 15, 1945.[13] His claim, however, has been criticized because it ignores the fact that the Imperial Headquarters in Tokyo knew that a full-scale invasion had begun but were unaware of how badly the fighting in Manchuria was going.[14]


One curious feature of the campaign, aside from the Japanese armies receiving a shellacking of the like they had never had before, is that surrenders appear to have been higher than in the Pacific or Burma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_POWs_in_the_Soviet_Union

Unfortunately does not distinguish between prisoners taken before Aug 15 and those after that date.
 
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:27 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 44):

The point is that 80% of the wehrmacht were fighting on the eastern front.
Thats where the battle was won or would have been lost.

The Soviets were in Germany before the allies landed at Normandy.
More than 50% of the troops manning the Atlantic had been sent to the eastern front by the time the allies decided to invade.

The invasion at Normandy sped up the battle but in the end the battle was won on the eastern front.
the US most important role in Europes WWII was of course as a banker and a country to far away to be reached by bombings. That meant the US could produce war materials at full speed and those materials were of great importance to the British, the Soviets and the Anzacs.

Ummm, no they weren't. The Soviets were pushing the Germans out of the western Ukraine in July of 1944.

While the ground fighting was far more savage and took place on a much larger scale in the east, the Western powers played the critical role on a strategic level.

The destruction of Germany's industry and oil reserves greatly hampered operations. More importantly, the destruction of the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe was the key.

The bombing campaign against Germany wiped out the Luftwaffe both in aircraft and skilled pilots. These aircraft and pilots could have played a pivotal role in the east but were being ground up trying to take down bombers in the west.

He who controls the air controls the battlefield and the U.K and U.S. took that away from the Germans.
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:06 am



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 46):
Ummm, no they weren't. The Soviets were pushing the Germans out of the western Ukraine in July of 1944.

True but:

The Soviet army initiated an offensive into East Prussia in October 1944, but it was temporarily driven back two weeks later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_East_Prussia
 
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:34 pm



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 44):
And yes it was liberation. Without it there wouldnt have been any jews left in Europe nor gypsies and probably hardly any slavs.

Oh, yes.....lets not forget how well Uncle Joe treated his own Jews........as badly or worse than Hitler did.


I don't how you can call it liberation with all the countries that ended up under the control of the Soviet Union after the war.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 44):
The Soviets were in Germany before the allies landed at Normandy.

From what I can research, the Soviets didn't come anywhere near Germany until late in 1944.

Lets not forget about the allied invasion of Sicily and Italy, too.....in 1943.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 47):
Quoting Ual777 (Reply 46):
Ummm, no they weren't. The Soviets were pushing the Germans out of the western Ukraine in July of 1944.


True but:

The Soviet army initiated an offensive into East Prussia in October 1944, but it was temporarily driven back two weeks later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuat...ussia

You make it sound as if the United States fought this war from afar, that no sacrifices in lives or blood was made by us and that, militarily, we were just a minor player.

Where do you come up with these theories?
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RussianJet
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RE: Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2

Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:41 pm



Quoting Mayor (Reply 48):
Oh, yes.....lets not forget how well Uncle Joe treated his own Jews........as badly or worse than Hitler did.

They suffered very badly under Stalin, as did other minorities, and I am not for one second any cheerleader of Josef - but you can't seriously by any stretch of the imagination claim legitimately that Jews were treated as badly by him as by Hitler.

As to the general arguments about who liberated who and who was the major player etc, it is all pointless. We all know that both the USSR and the USA played a massive role in bringing about eventual victory in WW2. There's no need to turn it into a pissing contest.
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