RussianJet
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North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:44 pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6453550.ece

Two American journalists accused of illegally entering North Korea and also of one unspecified "....grave crime" against North Korea have been sentenced to 12 years with hard labour.

Does anyone know what the second alleged crime is? 12 Years is a serious sentence. I know a friend of a friend who also crossed into North Korea illegally, apparently by accident, and was detained for a while but then simply removed from the country. Then again, he wasn't a journalist or American.

What are your reactions to this? Obviously I expect people to generally speak out against the severity of sentence and the credibility of the North Korean nation and legal system, but what do we actually know in terms of facts about this case?
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MaverickM11
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:09 pm

I just saw her last night in another documentary about Mexico drug wars. Maybe this will be another catalyst contributing toward the end of the regime?
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sw733
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:19 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Does anyone know what the second alleged crime is? 12 Years is a serious sentence.

It was the maximum sentence for the crime at hand.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Then again, he wasn't a journalist or American.

And he probably was not making an anti-DPRK report at the time too. These women were, and it pissed the North Koreans off...that combined with the obvious political ramifications led to the heavy sentence.

The question that most of us will likely never know is - did they actually cross the border, or did the DPRK cross into China to get them? Like I said, only a few people will probably ever really know...the women will always say they were in China, and the DPRK will always say they were in the DPRK, so who knows...

I think the odds of them spending much time in prison are very small...the USA will get them out somehow, someway.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:37 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
I think the odds of them spending much time in prison are very small...the USA will get them out somehow, someway.

And they should! If not, I hope that the U.S. retaliates harshly on the North Korean government.
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:42 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
And they should! If not, I hope that the U.S. retaliates harshly on the North Korean government

Aren't we making a whole heap of judgements here without being in posession of the facts? If (and I say IF) these ladies broke North Korean law, why should they not face punishment in that country? If the reverse happened and a North Korean committed offences in the USA, would we be saying that Korea should retaliate harshly if a punishment was forthcoming?

I realise there is much to case doubt on the credibility of the case against these women, but face it - I don't think any of us really know whether they did anything wrong or not, so how can we be suddenly calling for retaliation??
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sw733
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:46 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
And they should! If not, I hope that the U.S. retaliates harshly on the North Korean government.

Why? If they broke a law by illegally crossing into North Korea (maybe they did, maybe they didn't, it's he said she said right now), they are subject to North Korean laws...why should North Korea be punished for enforcing their own laws in their own country, as they say they are doing?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:26 pm

Dont forget that the North Koreans are very unpredictable in what they are doing nowadays. They are probably doing this to make a point well known with the world. I highly doubt that these girls entered into North Korea illegally, but I wonder how the government proved otherwise.

IMO, North Korea is asking for trouble, not only in this situation....but in pretty much everything. And they know it.
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zootrix
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:26 pm

Sorry, but its quite silly of these two to have gone there on the pretext of reporting. You quite well know what you are dealing with when it comes to N. Korea; esp journalists.
 
RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:27 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I highly doubt that these girls entered into North Korea illegally

Why?
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:39 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
Why?

Considering that the girls are U.S. citizens, they are not that stupid given the economical climate that is going on in that region. Therefore they were convicted only because they were U.S. citizens regardless if they broke the laws or not. So the North is making an example of these girls not to screw around with them. In other words, it is a political statement.

So we will never know what REALLY happened...... the North Koreans are a one sided story type of people.

Personally, I would not even want to be around the North Korea border for any reason because of the BS that the North has been pulling these days.
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blrsea
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:45 pm

If the two women entered N Korea legally, wouldn't their employers or anyone else know about it? their parents, close friends etc ?

You can never trust these journalists too. Many of them are willing to go to any lengths to get a scoop and further their careers.
 
RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:47 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
they are not that stupid

Why not? How do we know? Journalists sometimes do very stupid things in the pursuit of a good story or furthering a career. Maybe they were spying. The US does that too, you know. Point is, we do not know.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
Therefore they were convicted only because they were U.S. citizens

There are no facts upon which to base such an assertion. It is pure speculation and should not be stated as fact.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
the North Koreans are a one sided story type of people.

Is the version you put forward not a little one-sided also?
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:48 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 5):
Why? If they broke a law by illegally crossing into North Korea (maybe they did, maybe they didn't, it's he said she said right now), they are subject to North Korean laws...why should North Korea be punished for enforcing their own laws in their own country, as they say they are doing?

Yeah, let's not punish a corrupt country that can't even feed it's own citizens, develops Nuclear arms in violation of international agreements and controls all media.


There is no due process in North Korea, and the leadership survives only by convincing the starving masses that they are under immenint threat of attack.
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sw733
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:50 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
Considering that the girls are U.S. citizens, they are not that stupid given the economical climate that is going on in that region. Therefore they were convicted only because they were U.S. citizens regardless if they broke the laws or not.

Oh, ok. Thank you...apparently nobody else knows the facts but you do. Case closed.

I have met a LOT of stupid Americans, sorry to say...these two could be more of them. Holding a US passport does not make you smart.
 
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:55 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
Yeah, let's not punish a corrupt country that can't even feed it's own citizens, develops Nuclear arms in violation of international agreements and controls all media.

I am not defending North Korea on any of those counts, they are horrible and their leader is a jerk to say the least. But, the fact is that those are not the topics in question...the topic in question is a possible illegal border crossing, and that is what I am discussing.
 
RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:00 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
Yeah, let's not punish a corrupt country that can't even feed it's own citizens, develops Nuclear arms in violation of international agreements and controls all media.

What does this have to do with punishing a country for convicting someone of illegally entering its territory? (and of one other, unspecified offence)
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:13 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 13):
Oh, ok. Thank you...apparently nobody else knows the facts but you do. Case closed.

I didn't say that I knew all the facts in the case. I said it appears to be the case because they were convicted solely because they were U.S. citizens and made a scapegoat of them. That is MY opinion.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 13):
I have met a LOT of stupid Americans, sorry to say...these two could be more of them. Holding a US passport does not make you smart.

I never said that. I said that these girls would not be stupid enough to break another countries laws. But I do agree that some Americans can be real stupid. But these girls are not.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
What does this have to do with punishing a country for convicting someone of illegally entering its territory?

I was about to ask the same thing, you beat me to it.
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:17 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
some Americans can be real stupid. But these girls are not.

In terms of pure intelligence you may well be right. In terms of whether or not they might take a silly risk, who knows?
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17):
In terms of whether or not they might take a silly risk, who knows?

I also considered that as well.
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
I also considered that as well.

So what do you know about them that we don't that definitely, 100% positively means that they could never do anything foolish or make a mistake?
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:45 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):

Like I said, I considered the notion that they probably have made a mistake, but I really don't think they did make any mistake nor did they enter illegally.
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:54 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
but I really don't think they did make any mistake nor did they enter illegally.

So we're back to where I suspected we were all along - that there is nothing whatsoever to base such an assumption on and they may well have done what they're accused of but we just don't know.
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:59 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):

I don't think you understand where I am coming from, and that's fine.
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casinterest
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:03 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 14):
not defending North Korea on any of those counts, they are horrible and their leader is a jerk to say the least. But, the fact is that those are not the topics in question...the topic in question is a possible illegal border crossing, and that is what I am discussing.

My point was being made with my second statement. I was only responding to your punishment claim,


North Korea is a dictatorship regime filled with corruption. They have no due process and no real relations other than to make political statements to the rest of the world.

Their "closed courthroom" for an international incident is a mockery of international law.
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 23):
North Korea is a dictatorship regime filled with corruption. They have no due process and no real relations other than to make political statements to the rest of the world.

 checkmark  Thank you. That was the whole point I was getting at and trying to explain to RussianJet.
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
I don't think you understand where I am coming from, and that's fine.

Well perhaps you could enlighten us then? On the balance of probabilities you may be right, but there can be no certainty. Other than expressing a hunch, what were you getting at that I have missed?
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 25):

See Reply # 23.
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:07 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 26):
See Reply # 23

So my point stands. North Korea has a dubious criminal system and a hatred of the US, but we still do not know that these women did not commit offences.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:19 pm

Well this serves them right fo wandering across the river. As a whole, journalists need to learn a little respect, tact, and common sense which so often they disregard in pursuit of a good story - regardless of the country they come from.

The flip side of this is that in 10 or 12 years they'll be able to sign a great book deal.
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:24 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
North Korea has a dubious criminal system and a hatred of the US, but we still do not know that these women did not commit offences.

I believe that was the whole point to the trial regardless if the women committed the offense or not, they had no chance of a fair trial...period.
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:39 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
I believe that was the whole point to the trial regardless if the women committed the offense or not, they had no chance of a fair trial...period.

Whilst one can argue it is likely, it is by no means a fact, and it is also not a fact that we know they are innocent - because we do not.
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:49 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
it is by no means a fact, and it is also not a fact that we know they are innocent - because we do not.

Because the North Korean government will not admit to the real facts of what really happened. But it does not take much to figure out what really happened based on how North Korea really is and how they hate the U.S. So it is a given.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:03 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 31):
Because the North Korean government will not admit to the real facts of what really happened. But it does not take much to figure out what really happened based on how North Korea really is and how they hate the U.S. So it is a given.

There are border guards on both sides of the river, a hell of a lot on the Chinese side, mainly to stop the illegal immigration and smuggling of items from the DPRK into China. If a bunch of North Korean soldiers/officials/anyone etc... had come across the river and captured two foreign nationals from Chinese soil then that really would have been a diplomatic incident. North Korean soldiers don't just wait around on the dotted line in the middle of the river either, waiting for people to jump across. They are not ethnically caucasian and in no way look like your average American - so how did the DPRK know they were from the US and therefore capture them intendely?

In all probability, what happend was that two journalists pushed their luck and got caught. When you're exploding nuclear bombs and firing ballistic missiles, is there really any need to go after a couple of lowly reporters to get more attention? I think not.

[Edited 2009-06-08 17:05:31]
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:04 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 31):
Because the North Korean government will not admit to the real facts of what really happened. But it does not take much to figure out what really happened based on how North Korea really is and how they hate the U.S. So it is a given.

We're probably going to have to just disagree on this. I see where you're coming from, but just because of the agendas on both sides and the harsh regime in N.Korea we still do not know that they didn't do anything wrong.
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AirframeAS
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:05 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
We're probably going to have to just disagree on this.

I'll agree to disagree. But it is still pretty obvious.... Think about it....  wave 
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:08 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
But it is still pretty obvious.... Think about it....

It is a strong possibility, I have already admitted - but my final word would be to say that let's not pretend that both sides in this don't have an agenda, or that one is snow-white just because the other is known for its constant mischief.  Big grin
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mal787
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:11 am

This has been a somewhat 2 way discussion at this stage. But I cant see any where in any post the question & answer that starts the whole thing off. What caused these 2 reporters to be near / inside the border with North Korea, obviously we will not get the answer form the people concerned. So it begs the question, who are they working for? are they independent selling stories to the highest bidder, work for an American broadcaster. In one of these scenarios some body knows they where in or around the location and what they are reporting on. ( its a fair chance it is related to missile tests etc)
Now once we have an answer to this we MAY have some idea why they got caught.
If they did get caught carrying out illegal activities in North Korea it does not matter if they are American Australian French or from Mars, you are breaking the laws of that country. The little puppet ruler in charge at the moment has great pleasure in making examples of those who break the rules in his country, the fact that these 2 are Americans has made it even more of a story, simply because he hates the Americans and all they stand for.

The fact that these 2 are now serving 12 years for what ?? takes me back to my opening question.
For the USA to get them released is not going to be an easy diplomatic problem to solve, threats of tougher sanctions etc will only make North Koreans more resilient in the thoughts that the US is a nation of "Barbarians" . This could well turn out to be the litmus test for H Clinton.

mal787
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PlymSpotter
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:30 am



Quoting Mal787 (Reply 36):
What caused these 2 reporters to be near / inside the border with North Korea, obviously we will not get the answer form the people concerned. So it begs the question, who are they working for?

As quoted from the news article:

"They were conducting research for a film about the many poor North Koreans who sneak into China to work, trade and smuggle, and to escape the repression in their country."
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:09 am

Another related article -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8090543.stm

"Their trial was held amid growing tensions over North Korea's nuclear programme, but Mrs Clinton stressed that the two issues were "entirely separate". "
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asuflyer05
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:13 am

Such a publicity stunt. Shame the two journalists have to suffer.

[Edited 2009-06-08 23:42:46]
 
mal787
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:40 am



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 37):
They were conducting research for a film about the many poor North Koreans who sneak into China to work, trade and smuggle, and to escape the repression in their country."

thanks PlySpottter I must admit i did not read the article i based my coments as supplied by early news here in OZ. my bad
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:38 am



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 39):
Such a publicity stunt. Shame the two journalists have to suffer.

So they definitely didn't do anything wrong? Where are the facts to back up that premise? Maybe, just maybe, they did in fact break the law - but instead all we have is "we're the goodies and they're the baddies". You don't know any better than I do what really happened.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:45 am

At the East- / West German border during Cold War, the border fortifications (Berlin Wall, barbed wire fence / mine fields etc.) were often located up to several hundred meters on East German territory. This means that there was a strip of "no man's land" on the western side of the border fortifications, which still belonged to East Germany, but was readily accessible from the West. Normally, if you entered this area, nothing happened except being watched and photographed by bored East German border guards on their watch tower (on the Eastern side of the wall).
But sometimes they would send armed patrols out into this area and they could arrest you.
Maybe the two women strayed (or were enticed to enter by North Korean agent provocateurs) on land actually belonging to North Korea, but not marked as such, and since their activities were certainly known to the North Korean authorities, they got arrested.
In any case now they are hostages, with whom the North Korean government tries to force the US government to follow their demands.

Jan
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RussianJet
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:49 am



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 39):
Such a publicity stunt. Shame the two journalists have to suffer.

So they definitely didn't do anything wrong? Where are the facts to back up that premise? Maybe, just maybe, they did in fact break the law - but instead all we have is "we're the goodies and they're the baddies". You don't know any better than I do what really happened.
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MillwallSean
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:10 am

Sometimes Americans bewilder me.

Do you seriously think these are two innocent girls that just happened to be on the wrong side of the border between China and North Korea?
Hmm that place, where so many is out strolling along the border.
And with the border being a river its so easy to just end up on the wrong side?
or do you believe that North Korea sends armed troops over the border to China at will?

Lets see what the normal newspapers say, in this case Time:
"A Chinese guide as well as another western colleague, (the cameraman), were reportedly with the women but they managed to get back to Chinese territory. The party was, according to a report, on the North Korean bank of the Tumen (The river between China and North Korea) when they were accosted by the local authorities."
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888004,00.html

The ladies have met the Swedish ambassador, poor bloke being stationed in North Korea cant be much fun, and he states they said they were caught 50 meters on the wrong side of the border.

If they were keen on just filming why wouldn't they do it from the border city where they stayed and where they interviewed people or on the riverbank where most people cross the border from?
Nope these have to hire a local guide and get away from the town. They bring their cameraman as well. He somehow doesn't get arrested.

Then they meet North Korean troops, troops that apparently takes offence to being filmed. These troops then proceeds to run over into China and snatches the two girls while leaving the cameraman thats just filmed the borderguards behind. All according to their side of the story.
Now if North Korean troops came running over the border, and the ladies stayed on the spot, who reckons the cameraman would film this? And why would the cameraman and the Chinese guide run away if they were on Chinese territory?

Do you really believe they can spot people filming on the Chinese side and get so offended by this that they run over and then arrest the girls but not the cameraman?
Somehow that story doesn't sound all that believable to me.

This is China, a superpower with plenty of military on the border, and the border is a river.

I am pretty sure that China doesn't have the habit of letting other countries military forces operate on its territory without consequences.
Especially napping western journalists.

The BBC sent a team over to the same Chinese border city a year or two ago. Nothing could be done there without the knowledge of the Chinese and money quickly changed hands to allow the BBC to roam around and meet illegals and smugglers. Without that money the BBC couldn't do a thing in the border city.
The BBC, of course, asked the smugglers if they could be brought over to the Korean side.
They couldn't but the smugglers allowed the BBC to send a Korean that spoke English over for a very hefty price, he would bring a small camera.
He went over to the other side, walked about 200 meter into North Korea accompanied by a Chinese guide...
Filmed there and then went back. In general all that was visible was a green field.

My assumption is these two ladies have done the exact same thing, just that they were caught. And I can guarantee they have paid their money to be able to film and interview illegals and smugglers in China.
They knew precisely what risks they were taking and what they were doing.
You dont come close to crossing into North Korea illegally just by accident.

We all know North Korea, its a country with leaders that are completely insane. t
In North Koreas eyes what they just have seen is something different than two innocent journalists.
What do you think would happen if two Al Jazeera journalists crossed the border into US territory at Guantanamo without a permit stating they were just out on a stroll and thought they were at the Cuban side?

All I can say is stupid, stupid ladies.

I am sure they wont serve 12 years but lets face it, even three months in a North Korean labour camp would probably be enough to break down most normal people.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:51 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):
At the East- / West German border during Cold War, the border fortifications (Berlin Wall, barbed wire fence / mine fields etc.) were often located up to several hundred meters on East German territory. This means that there was a strip of "no man's land" on the western side of the border fortifications, which still belonged to East Germany, but was readily accessible from the West. Normally, if you entered this area, nothing happened except being watched and photographed by bored East German border guards on their watch tower (on the Eastern side of the wall).
But sometimes they would send armed patrols out into this area and they could arrest you.

Very interesting Jan, the article would suggest that the border they crossed was a frozen river - not too hard to deduce which side is which really.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 45):
Very interesting Jan, the article would suggest that the border they crossed was a frozen river - not too hard to deduce which side is which really.

Even then. West Berlin, where I grew up during the Cold War (I was 22 years old when the Wall came down), there were several river borders (alnog the Havel River). Sometimes the border would be on the far bank, and sometimes in the middle of the river. The exact line used to be marked by a chain of white buoys. Behind them were East German patrol boats to catch tresspassers. Still it was possible to accidentally cross on East German territory. E.g. near Potsdam at Glieniker Brücke the border fence and the watch towers were several hundred meters away from the river bank. The East Germans build their border fortifications with an eye on tactics, not to follow the line of the land exactly.

But, back to the original topic. Apparently official policy in China is to send North Korean refugees back. Last year several of them were executed in public by the North Korean authorities on the bridge leading to China as a warning to others.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
victrola
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:39 pm

Does anyone have a description of the border area where they were supposedly caught? If the border is a river, it should be obvious where one country ends and the other begins. That is unless it is one of those rivers with constantly shifting channels and islands.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:21 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 47):
Does anyone have a description of the border area where they were supposedly caught? If the border is a river, it should be obvious where one country ends and the other begins. That is unless it is one of those rivers with constantly shifting channels and islands.

There's a description in the article. The borders are pretty defined and don't shift any more than a regular river; one of my friends went to North Korea with Koryo Tours and on the way out took an option to spend some time in a Chinese border town, taking a boat up the river itself.

Incidentally, North Korea has now announced that UK citizens will no longer be allowed to visit the DPRK.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
TheCol
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RE: North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years

Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:33 pm



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 28):
The flip side of this is that in 10 or 12 years they'll be able to sign a great book deal.

If they survive that long...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):

That pretty much sums it up.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.

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