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OA260
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Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:43 pm

The UK is the cocaine capital of Europe with 5 per cent of people aged 15 to 16 admitting that they have tried the drug, according to a UN report published today.

There are more than a million regular users of cocaine in the UK, but the quality being sold on the streets has slumped in recent years, with some substances being sold at only 4 per cent pure.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6570000.ece

-----------

Quite an alarming thing and not something to be proud of. Why do some many Brits take drugs? Who is to blame and what can be done about it. Only yesterday I was walking in the street in Glasgow and approached by a guy off his head asking for money.
 
Danfearn77
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:17 pm

Great. Yet another problem with our society. It really is becoming embarrassing. Drug use is high. Binge drinking is high. Immigration is completely off the scale. So too is crime. And im sure we are extremely high when it comes to teenage pregnancy.

It all comes down to broken society. I agree with David Cameron, Marriage and families play a big part in this. Look at most of these kids who are doing it, and they come from poor backgrounds. Maybe being raised by a single mum, or if their dad is there he doesnt care. I work a lot in schools and some of the things truly scare and stagger me. Only the other day i chased after a guy who nicked my bike. I pushed him off and he told me i was going to get 'stabbed to fu*k' by his brothers.

Im 21, and i have a very close nit group of mates, maybe a dozen or 20 of us who have been together since primary school. None of us smoke, drink excessively, do drugs and commit crime. We did very well in education. And we all come from families which are still together. Apart from one guy, who his parents divorced when we were in Year 7 (age 12ish) and he now is in a rock and roll band and is off his tits every night. We haven't seen him in months.

Obviously there is always the exception. Its not always going to be people from poor backgrounds or with broken families, but it starts from there. I bumped in a girl i knew from my class in high school, she is younger than me, maybe only 20 and i saw her pushing a double pram and she was pregnant again. I later found out she has 2 kids, expecting another and all to different dads. She doesn't work. So what are the chances her kids will turn out like her or worse? Very high. Then she will have kids when she is 15 and the process continues. They have no hope from a young age, so they hang around in gangs because they think its cool. They drink, they smoke, they do drugs then they are hooked. So they commit crime to fund their addiction, then have kids. Back to square one.

I have been to most of Europe and have been on nights out, and i have to say us British are the most immature and embarrassing. When abroad, its mostly the British making a clot out of themselves. Dancing on the bar, falling over, being sick. I was staggered when i went to Stockholm (Great city!) and it was a pretty warm evening. The girls were dressed respectively in jeans etc having a good time drinking what was comfortable with them. Compare this to Liverpool, in February i was on a night out and came across a group of girls wearing literally their bra's and knickers. About 20 of them. I mean, just pathetic. (Have to admit it was quite a nice sight at the time!)

I have clearly ranted here! But it boils down to the society. Oh and the judicial system which is beyond belief.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
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OA260
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:51 pm



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 1):
Im 21, and i have a very close nit group of mates, maybe a dozen or 20 of us who have been together since primary school. None of us smoke, drink excessively, do drugs and commit crime. We did very well in education. And we all come from families which are still together. Apart from one guy, who his parents divorced when we were in Year 7 (age 12ish) and he now is in a rock and roll band and is off his tits every night. We haven't seen him in months.

Im the same except im now 33 lol... Also my parents divorced when I was doing my school exams and I just got on with it so people that say divorce is an excuse isnt washing with me. My parents nearly killed eachother with screaming matches day and night so it wasnt easy. If anything it made me more independant and determined not to make the same mistakes. I never considered drugs. I do know two friends who did ( Cannabis ) and I dont approve.
 
Flighty
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:56 pm



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 1):
later found out she has 2 kids, expecting another and all to different dads. She doesn't work. So what are the chances her kids will turn out like her or worse?

Why is that bad? It sounds like your society rewards that behavior. We reformed our welfare system so people have to work, for the most part, to receive benefits. It is considered to be a successful program. Maybe the UK should try it.
 
Danfearn77
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:08 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
Why is that bad? It sounds like your society rewards that behavior. We reformed our welfare system so people have to work, for the most part, to receive benefits. It is considered to be a successful program. Maybe the UK should try it.

Its bad because she does not work. And i forgot to mention this. She is on 5 DIFFERENT types of benefit schemes. One is job seekers allowance, which is the dole basically. But she is also on incapacity benefits, meaning she is getting paid because she cant work, presumably due to her kids. Then she had other forms of benefits. But that just shows it right there. She is getting paid to find work, but she is also getting paid not to work because she cant. Its Labours way....take money off hard working families and the rich and give it to people like this who do bugger all. I mean take a look at this family:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...rth-of-benefits-is-not-enough.html

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Im the same except im now 33 lol... Also my parents divorced when I was doing my school exams and I just got on with it so people that say divorce is an excuse isnt washing with me. My parents nearly killed eachother with screaming matches day and night so it wasnt easy. If anything it made me more independant and determined not to make the same mistakes. I never considered drugs. I do know two friends who did ( Cannabis ) and I dont approve

Like i said there are exceptions, and thats you and that is great. What that shows is you had a decent up bringing and you had two great parents.

A lot of this starts when 2 youngsters get together just for the sake of the kid. These people are usually not decent anyway, so it falls apart and the kid knows nothing when its 6-7 years old. Its 'parents;' have no discipline and the kid can only learn off them. Before you know it, that child is 13-14 and is in trouble with the police.

A family needs to be together for the right reasons from the start. Like in your case, OA260, you had decent parents and a good up bringing so the divorce was sure a painful and inconvenience experience, but you kept going. But its these 'families' made up of parents who are 16-18yrs old that fall apart and these guys have no discipline or care for society from the start and their child can only learn from that.

I should have stated really that the middle and upper classes arnt really affected. I mean i could have a kid now and not get married etc, but i am decent enough to raise the child and give him/her the best possible start in life. It is the lower classes from poorer backgrounds which pose the problem, lack of discipline and respect for each other, so they dont care for anyone else (As stated there are exceptions and not every family from a poorer background it a broken and lawless one.)

Where i am based with work is a poor area of Liverpool. Some of the things i see stagger me. I had this child and her mum come to me one day for a talent ID day (i work in sport) and she arrived 2 hours early. It was 9am ish and she was off her face on all sorts by the looks of it. The child was an absolute terror but once you get below the 'show' they often put on to look good he was quite a decent lad. He told me his mum was an alcoholic, a drug user and she lived on her own. He then told me his dad held a knife to his throat 2 weeks earlier and had then broken his nose by hitting him. It was no surprise to hear that he is in his 3rd school, having been expelled from 2 previous ones and he is only 10.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
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OA260
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:25 am



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
He told me his mum was an alcoholic, a drug user and she lived on her own. He then told me his dad held a knife to his throat 2 weeks earlier and had then broken his nose by hitting him. It was no surprise to hear that he is in his 3rd school, having been expelled from 2 previous ones and he is only 10.

And where are social services and the State?? He should be taken into care and placed with a decent family. I mean WTF is going through the brains of these so called ''care workers''. The whole welfare system in the UK has been over taken by PC imbeciles. Mind you we just have to look at Baby P to see the whole system has gone to the crapper. Very sad , the UK used to be a decent place when I was living there. Now its all gone mad.
 
babybus
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:13 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
Mind you we just have to look at Baby P to see the whole system has gone to the crapper. Very sad , the UK used to be a decent place when I was living there. Now its all gone mad.

The trouble with our system is that no one is allowed to make decisions. Some social worker may want to put a child in care but has to go through 100 people to agree to it or fill out 1000 forms.

Drug trading is a east European thing. We need more controls on who is entering the country and what they are doing while they are here.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Elite
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:35 am

The United Kingdom needs to get its act together on many different levels. Great Britain is a great country and it needs to bounce back; they have the potential to be the top dog again. They probably need a switch of leadership though, as Gordon Brown and his Labour party doesn't seem to be satisfying the needs of the people.
 
GDB
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:03 pm

Elite, the UK is not alone in these problems, there is also no correlation I've ever noticed between who is in government and these issues.
Unless one is prepared to maybe consider something very radical.

However, is this one of the factors in the financial crisis, a bunch of coked up financial service types really thinking they were masters of the universe?
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:58 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
Why is that bad? It sounds like your society rewards that behavior. We reformed our welfare system so people have to work, for the most part, to receive benefits. It is considered to be a successful program. Maybe the UK should try it.

Sadly you are spot on Flighty. I have never understood how successive governments (and this gravy train did not begin under New Labour) have allowed this ridiculous abuse of public money to continue unabaited.

The culture of welfare dependancy begins in this country the moment you leave school. I have never understood why school leavers can simply receive money just for leaving education. Why can't they get a job for their money and only qualify for benefits once they have contributed to it for a period of time?

A ban on benefit money being used for the purchase of cigarettes and booze wouldn't go amiss either, which I understand happens in some states in the US. You want to smoke and drink, do it with your bloody money.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
exFATboy
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:48 pm

While the UK, like most Western societies, may have its problems, I'd take the "cocaine crisis" with a grain of salt.

First off, the Times summary of the report doesn't define a "regular user". The percentage of population described as "regular users" is 2.3%, where the last statistic I saw for the US was 2% - and that 2% for the US defined a "regular user" as someone who uses as infrequently as once a month. On a percentage basis, the UK's use is lower than several other countries, particularly Spain, so to call Britain the "Cocaine Capital of Europe" is, at the least, a mild exaggeration.

I do have to admit the 5% "tried at least once" statistic for 15-16-year-olds is higher than I'd expect, but "tried" frequently means "tried once and never touched it again" or "tried it once because someone offered it, but I'm not paying for the stuff." The 3% "try" rate for crack is unnerving, I have to admit!

All the parties quoted in this article have an air of wanting to spin this news to make it sound far worse than it actually is...
 
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 1):
I have been to most of Europe and have been on nights out, and i have to say us British are the most immature and embarrassing. When abroad, its mostly the British making a clot out of themselves. Dancing on the bar, falling over, being sick.

Working at a hotel bar serving tourist in Germany, I have to admit that almost anytime there's a problem with drunk and problematic guests, it's guests from the U.K. 9 out of 10 times! In fact, the only times we've ever had to call police was over guests from the U.K. Especially football hooligans when they come to town for a game!
 
Elite
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:50 am



Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 10):
While the UK, like most Western societies, may have its problems, I'd take the "cocaine crisis" with a grain of salt.

True, and drugs are also a major problem in the United States, especially with the escalating violence in the South near the American - Mexican border. The problem is actually a lot more serious than people would think.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:10 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):

Im the same except im now 33 lol...

Yes, but you're gay, and thus the very root cause of societal downfall.
(what, you didn't get the memo?)
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Danfearn77
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:41 am



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 11):
Working at a hotel bar serving tourist in Germany, I have to admit that almost anytime there's a problem with drunk and problematic guests, it's guests from the U.K. 9 out of 10 times! In fact, the only times we've ever had to call police was over guests from the U.K. Especially football hooligans when they come to town for a game!

See i find that so embarrassing but i totally believe you. 100% because i know its true. We are such an immature nation when it comes to going out and having a good time. Everyone feels like they have to get absolutely slaughtered everytime they go out. The town centres at night are a wash with blue lights from people knocking the crap out of one another. Sometimes i go out and drink a bit, sometimes not at all and i drive. Occasionally i may become more merry but i certainly dont do it week in week out.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
raffik
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:36 am



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 1):
Apart from one guy, who his parents divorced when we were in Year 7 (age 12ish) and he now is in a rock and roll band and is off his tits every night. We haven't seen him in months.

I would like to say that my parents divorced and I don't think I turned out bad. I have a great career, great friends, close relationships with my family and I am a happy, well rounded person.

Alot of people go off the rails whether or not they have divorced parents. I actually think that if you have parents that clearly don't love each other, bicker and slag each other off for years, people staying in bad relationships because they are too ashamed of the stigma attached with divorce, that screws the kids up more than just divorce.

And as for your friend, getting drunk and partying is indicative of a rock and roll lifestyle, not the lifestyle of somebody who has divorced parents.

As for drug taking. Drug addiction affects many people from many different backgrounds, not just the ones with "broken families". I have known people who have used cocaine who have been at Eaton, who are Managing Directors. You cannot generalise and say that the break down of the family is the cause to all our problems.

We should be targeting the dealers who bring the drugs into the country and push it onto our young. They will hang around, giving kids as young as 10 drugs to use (free) to get them hooked and will then start charging. They will move form town to town doing this.

It's a big problem that is international - the drug growing overseas by drug barons down to the people who smuggle it into the country and the dealers who push it on to kids.
- Alec
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:08 am

People need to get real about drugs and stop all the sugar coating.

If you could see just how many normal, sane, working, productive members of society use cocaine and other drugs, they'd be shocked.

Drug use isn't the problem, it's drug abuse. Ethyl alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs known to man when used inappropriately.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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OA260
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:45 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Yes, but you're gay, and thus the very root cause of societal downfall.
(what, you didn't get the memo?)

Dont you know , its me that would get society back on the straight and narrow  Big grin

Like I said divorced parents and Gay but yet I still got a job and paid my way and could have used those excuses. I just got on with the best I had and tried to better my life. Shame alot more dont do the same.
 
Gofly
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:50 am

Is it really a wonder when our society has become so desensitised to the effects of drugs and alcohol?

Ask anybody in U.K. under a certain age what they think to drug use and excessive drinking - most will just shrug, passing it off as something that 'just happens'. Now, I would not subscribe to the sensationalistic views of the newspapers - the U.K. is not about implode because of cocaine use. The majority of people go about their daily lives without coming into contact with anything regarding drugs.

However, if you wanted to find drugs, it's not a difficult task - and that's the problem. When drug use and binge drinking become something that is 'socially acceptable' amongst young people, few repercussions are felt. The education offered in schools is not educational - it's nothing more than 'do drugs and bad things will happen to you'. Those that use drugs, even at a very minor level, have a profound effect in influencing other people's views - often convincing people that they are safe, which filters through to a wider audience.

Take cannabis, for example; amongst a large number of young people it is considered completely safe. Many state that it's preferable to alcohol in terms of long-terms effects; one day it's cannabis that's considered safe the next day it's another drug. It's these social norms and misconceptions that are causing problems.

Drug use amongst criminal elements, and even high flying professionals, is something that has been around for a long time - it's just we're better at statistically proving it now. Also, remember that newspapers never publish anything without an agenda - and you can make statistics prove whatever you want them to.

The solution lies in tighter controls on drugs at the supplier level - the harder are drugs are to obtain, the more scarce and expensive they become. It's people at the highest level in crime that need to be targeted.

Drug users, including dealers, are victims in themselves; effective, proper therapy and rehabilitation have proved much more successful than prison - but it's expensive and doesn't necessarily fit the public's perception of a 'just sentence. So prison, which is already at breaking point, is offered as the solution - which just serves as as time-out from the street. After prison, people often lose families, housing - and almost certainly jobs. Finding employment and shelter becomes impossible, so people end up in shelters and on the street - and come back into contact with drugs and crime because they have no other way of living life.

There are drug problems in the U.K., however, to suggest that the U.K. is suffering tremendously because of drugs would be incorrect, in my opinion. Drugs are an omnipresent problem anywhere in any country.

-Gofly
Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
 
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fxramper
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:31 pm

Pass the sugar, Kirkie!  beady 

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):

Thanks for the PSA.  yes 
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:05 pm

We need more tougher policing, tougher judges and more jails, in the UK.

But, sadly this will not happen - criminals seem to have more "human rights" than the victims in this country.  Sad
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
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OA260
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:17 pm



Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 20):
But, sadly this will not happen - criminals seem to have more "human rights" than the victims in this country.

Very true. I remember a case where a guy broke into a house and tried to make a getaway and fell on the roof. He sued the owner of the house. That is just sick IMHO.

If someone breaks into my house and I get an iron bar to defend myself and batter the hell out of them then thats my right and the law should be on my side. End of story. Time to go back to common sense.
 
Danfearn77
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:57 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
Very true. I remember a case where a guy broke into a house and tried to make a getaway and fell on the roof. He sued the owner of the house. That is just sick IMHO.

My Dad is in the police and he had the same sort of scenario. I have mentioned on A.net before. A guy, in Manchester this is, broke into a house of a 92 yr old Widow and fell through the window and landed on a kitchen knife which happened to be on the kitchen work surface. He successfully sued for something like £10,000 ($16,000). Absolutely crazy. And that was years ago and its got worse since then.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
If someone breaks into my house and I get an iron bar to defend myself and batter the hell out of them then thats my right and the law should be on my side. End of story. Time to go back to common sense.

Couldnt agree more. If a guy broke into my house with a knife and i managed to turn it round on him i wouldnt think twice. But unfortunately i would most definitely get locked up for manslaughter or something. Just ridiculous. A lot of this comes down to the bloody EU too.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
LHRjc
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:31 pm

I've been harassed by dealers on the streets far more in places like Amsterdam and Southern Spainto buy Coke off them than I have in any big city across the UK. That said most of them are clearly targetting the Brits so there must be a demand there or they wouldn't bother.

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 22):
If a guy broke into my house with a knife and i managed to turn it round on him i wouldnt think twice. But unfortunately i would most definitely get locked up for manslaughter or something. Just ridiculous. A lot of this comes down to the bloody EU too.

Yep, the EU has a lot to answer for. Some of their laws are just plain ridiculous! I think it's ok to act in self defense if you're upstairs in your house but not downstairs because you should encourage the burglar to run away or some nonsense! wtf?!
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fruitbat
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:39 pm



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 1):



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):

These are probably the two most smug, patronising depressing posts that I have ever read on A.Net.

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
It is the lower classes from poorer backgrounds which pose the problem,



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
I should have stated really that the middle and upper classes arnt really affected

Tell you what, lets just sterilise anyone who fits your stereotype to prevent them from breeding shall we? And then deport them to Outer Mongolia so that they don't interfere with your nice middle-class world? People with narrow-minded attitudes to life exist at all levels in UK society....as ably demonstrated by your posts.

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 14):
Occasionally i may become more merry but i certainly dont do it week in week out.

Maybe you should, you might become a bit more tolerant of other people.

To be honest I cannot believe comments like these come from a 21-yo who should be full of optimism and determination to change the world.....thats the real reason this country is screwed, we ALL find it easier to blame someone or something else instead of doing something about it.

As a true man of vision said:

"ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

And that applies to all of us, not just the (under)privileged few.

Quoting Gofly (Reply 18):



Quoting Raffik (Reply 15):

Thanks both for being voices of reason amongst the reactionary hang-em-and-flog-em posts.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
IH8BY
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:28 pm



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
Its Labours way....take money off hard working families and the rich and give it to people like this who do bugger all. I mean take a look at this family:

I'm afraid it's the price you pay for having a compassionate society; you conveniently neglect the fact that the majority of people claiming benefits and tax credits are doing so perfectly legitimately because they find it hard to get by. That would include, for instance, people who actually cannot work because of disabilities, people who are doing the jobs that this country needs but still cannot afford to get by, and people who are genuinely unemployed and need assistance to keep their families fed and their bills paid until they find appropriate employment. I am genuinely fed up with people who misuse the benefits system - they're not only stealing money from us, but also from the people in genuine need - but I also think that there's a lot of misrepresentation; most people on benefits are not layabouts, and many of the others indeed have deeper problems that a raging tabloid headline will 'not have space' to consider.

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
Like i said there are exceptions, and thats you and that is great. What that shows is you had a decent up bringing and you had two great parents.

Exceptions? I'm sure the majority of people who have divorced parents are not crazed drug-addled psychopaths, living like kings on the taxes of the middle class!

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
These people are usually not decent anyway

What on earth is that supposed to mean? How do you define 'decent'?

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
I should have stated really that the middle and upper classes arnt really affected.

Really? Isn't drug abuse rife in the corridors of power in the City? Didn't David Cameron and his friends spend a lot of their time at Oxford getting blind drunk? Are there really no drugs at private schools? Don't students at the most elitist universities in the country sleep around? If anything, it's just rather easier for them to hide it.

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
It is the lower classes from poorer backgrounds which pose the problem, lack of discipline and respect for each other, so they dont care for anyone else

Ridiculous. This is the sort of argument that was being made years ago by people who favoured enforcing a rigid class system. Yes, people from poorer or more difficult backgrounds often have greater challenges to face, and this does end up in social problems. In a way, the benefits which you so despise are there for the purpose of breaking this cycle. Nevertheless, it is an immensely crude generalisation, even if one decides to ignore completely your invocation of some apparent underclass; effectively saying 'poor people have no discipline or respect for others' is verging dangerously on the disrespectful towards a whole host of people, on this board or otherwise.
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GDB
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:02 pm

It all so grist to the mill of the Daily Mail version of this country.
One I've never recognized.

As this is about the results of surveys, what about some others?
Such as numbers of people in the UK who do charitable work, as in giving up their spare time - from local fund raising to working with those who are really living in 'Broken' countries in the less fortunate parts of the world.

Numbers who regularly give to help others financially - quietly and routinely, and we can also witness the levels raised by British people of all kinds after events like the 2004 Tsunami?

Sure many here make me angry, including the (exaggerated in number) 'Chavs'.
(Which I define as not 'working class', since they don't and did not before the current economic crisis - guess why all those East Europeans came - they filled a gap).

But, essentially much has not changed, even from the actual golden parts of previous times so often cited by the 'Broken Britain' crowd.

The British have always been a hedonistic bunch.
Go back to Victorian times, the poor had beer and gin, the better off had legal drugs like opium, cocaine.
Go back as far as you like, this has been a common factor.
Look at Hogarth's work - makes any of today's intoxication issues seem mild.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:55 pm



Quoting Gofly (Reply 18):

The solution lies in tighter controls on drugs at the supplier level - the harder are drugs are to obtain, the more scarce and expensive they become. It's people at the highest level in crime that need to be targeted.

You are correct and incorrect. You are correct that the harder drugs are to obtain, the more scarce and expensive they become.

You are incorrect in stating that this is a solution. We have seen with Prohibition that, in fact, this increases the criminality associated with the drug. Higher prices mean that addicts need more money to maintain their habit and many of them turn to crime to supply themselves. Higher risk in production and transport means that there are higher stakes and higher prices, meaning more criminality, more gang warfare, etc.

No anti-drug policy has been effective at reducing cannabis or cocaine consumption in the U.S. The tougher the policy, the less effective it is. Those are the hard facts. There is no reason to suppose that there is any practical way to eliminate a drug of abuse.

Through the ages, multiple governments have tried to ban certain drugs. These drugs have included alcohol, chocolate, tobacco, coffee, and tea. Drugs that were once commonplace (like laudanum, a tincture of opium) are now banned, yet opium still exists. In 100% of these cases, the policies have been failures. The drugs still exist, they are still used, and if they do not exist it is because they have fallen out of fashion or been replaced by something superior.

I find it terribly sad that we have not yet learned from our mistakes. We could take the drug trade and turn it from a money sink to a cash cow. We could co-opt it, legalize it, regulate it, and tax it. Alcohol makes the government plenty of money, as does tobacco.

And I have NEVER seen any drug that comes even remotely close in human cost and damage to either of these two drugs. Heroin causes most of its problems precisely because it is illegal and thus, impure. If pure heroin and clean syringes were available to addicts, there would be a precipitous drop in HIV and HCV transmission, as well as acute bacterial endocarditis. Alcohol, however, is available clean and pure and yet our emergency room admits at least 3-4 drunks per day. We see huge amounts of alcoholic cirrhosis. And I can't even begin to count the number of emphysema cases that are caused by tobacco.

In spite of propoganda, no well-done study has been able to link cannabis with head and neck cancer, lung cancer, or emphysema. There is no well-done study showing cognitive effects that last more than a few days to weeks after abstinence. (And I have the review articles to support my claim).

Finally, don't even THINK of condescending to tell me what I SHOULD be saying as a physician. As a physician, it is my duty to examine the evidence and act based on that. It is not my duty to lie to my patients to further a misguided social agenda. I do not recommend drug use of any sort, not even caffeine. But I do not tell lies to try to scare people out of using it.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Danfearn77
Posts: 557
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:37 am



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 25):
That would include, for instance, people who actually cannot work because of disabilities, people who are doing the jobs that this country needs but still cannot afford to get by, and people who are genuinely unemployed and need assistance to keep their families fed and their bills paid until they find appropriate employment

I give to charity, so believe me i have absolutely no problems whatsoever giving money to people with disabilities etc. After all thats what the benefit system is there for, to help people out in times of need. What they arnt there for is for people to cheat the system.

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 25):
but I also think that there's a lot of misrepresentation; most people on benefits are not layabouts

I would have to agree. But its like everything. The small minority of people always grab the majority of the headlines.


Apologies for not being clear here, but i wasnt referring to drugs in this instance. I was trying to say that drug related crime a lack of family support is lower in the higher classes. I have no doubt about your statement, and i would even go as far to say that there is a lot more drugs everyday in private schools

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 25):

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
I should have stated really that the middle and upper classes arnt really affected.

Really? Isn't drug abuse rife in the corridors of power in the City? Didn't David Cameron and his friends spend a lot of their time at Oxford getting blind drunk? Are there really no drugs at private schools? Don't students at than there is in state run schools.


[quote=IH8BY,reply=25]

Exceptions? I'm sure the majority of people who have divorced parents are not crazed drug-addled psychopaths, living like kings on the taxes of the middle class!

Again, must be the way i put this across. What im trying to say is a family unit is extremely important. The non-existence of this family value effects the lower classes as they are more vulnerable to crime and drugs.

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 25):
Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
It is the lower classes from poorer backgrounds which pose the problem, lack of discipline and respect for each other, so they dont care for anyone else

Ridiculous.

Some of the things i see in a council estate in Liverpool shock me. Ive seen kids set their dogs on adults, youths stamping on every car on the street and hitting them with baseball bats. Ive seen an elderly lady mugged by a gang and ive been chased by a few lads with golf clubs because i told them to give me my football back. In my eyes its a total lack of respect for anyone and anything. As i stated in an earlier post, that 10yo kid whose dad held a knife to his throat and broke his nose. If he does that to his own son then, in my opinion, i believe he will show the same level of respect for everyone else. I couldnt agree more that its a minority, but as i said they paint an image and that creates a stereotype. Rightly or wrongly that is always going to happen. If you went to an area of Manchester lets say, and you got mugged or beaten up, youd think twice about going there again.

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 24):
People with narrow-minded attitudes to life exist at all levels in UK society....as ably demonstrated by your posts.

As someone who has had a knife held to my throat, a gun against my head and been battered by a group of lads for several bikes ive had nicked, all of whom came from a council estate just down the road, all who got caught and all were mid 20's and had never worked a day in there life. Maybe you cane see where my 'narrow minded' approach comes from, if its as such. Ive never had a gun pressed against my forehead by a lad from Eton thats for sure.

I am only going off what i know and see. As i said previously, that girl who is younger than me and has 3 kids to 3 different guys. Theres no need telling me im wrong when i lay into her for it as i know she is far from a decent person. Her three children stand absolutely no chance in life and can only grow up to become like her mum. Who else can they learn off?

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 24):

Tell you what, lets just sterilise anyone who fits your stereotype to prevent them from breeding shall we?

No, not a good idea. Why should we do that. I never once suggested that. What we need to do is teach people how to parent properly. Good parents raise a good family who can put back into society. And at the moment you have to admit that does not happen as much as it should. It would be naive to think so.
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fruitbat
Posts: 361
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:12 pm



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 28):
Ive never had a gun pressed against my forehead by a lad from Eton thats for sure.

Only metaphorically by those who ended up running banks and other financial institutions. How many trillions have they taken from us so far??

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 28):
Theres no need telling me im wrong when i lay into her for it as i know she is far from a decent person. Her three children stand absolutely no chance in life and can only grow up to become like her mum. Who else can they learn off?

I just think you are over-simplifying things here. This lady is not the only role model in her kids life, what about other family members, teachers, neighbours, youth leaders etc etc etc - even sports people, people on TV etc - inspiration comes from many places - who inspired you to do what you are doing? Didn't someone once say that it takes a village to raise a child? OK it may not happen but to write off the children based on her choices / lifestyle at this stage is IMO shortsighted. Adversity can be a motivational factor as well.

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 28):
What we need to do is teach people how to parent properly.

Agreed. But it's up to all of us to develop a society that supports parents to help them raise a good family, not one that condemns at the earliest opportunity.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
Gofly
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:07 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
You are correct and incorrect. You are correct that the harder drugs are to obtain, the more scarce and expensive they become.

Neither of us are correct or, indeed, incorrect, Doc. We may, however, hold different opinions.

I do not disagree with what you are saying; however, if the drug becomes more scarce, it may turn addicts to more crime in the short run - but the long run will be a different story. Eventually the addiction will become too difficult to sustain if the drug is expensive and scare. However, inevitably, something cheaper will take its place; it will simply be a shifting of the problem.

I do not necessarily believe that any form of legalisation of drugs is the answer. Any program of legalisation would be tightly controlled with limited funding - which, in turn, means limited drugs. Because of this, there will always be a 'black market' for drugs; which is exactly the situation we have now. Why should we add a legalised market of drugs to it?

There is no question that if alcohol and tobacco were recent discoveries they would be illegal - it is only their historic background that gives them the standing they have today. As far as I am concerned, they rank just as highly as any other illegal drunk in terms of destruction.

The key lies in better education and adjusted social norms. The environment in which we live is absolutely key to the way we behave and, as a result, what we find acceptable and tolerable. Support for drug users needs to be more effective and rehabilitation needs to be more widely available.
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DocLightning
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:10 pm



Quoting Gofly (Reply 30):

I do not disagree with what you are saying; however, if the drug becomes more scarce, it may turn addicts to more crime in the short run - but the long run will be a different story.

But you have no evidence to prove that.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
AM744
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:36 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 12):
True, and drugs are also a major problem in the United States, especially with the escalating violence in the South near the American - Mexican border. The problem is actually a lot more serious than people would think.

Border violence has a different origin, though. We are talking drug barons + corrupt officers + huge north bound traffic. Not about drug-crazed bullies in schools, football hooligans or a social decomposition at large.
 
Gofly
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RE: Britain Is Cocaine Capital Of Europe

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:21 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
But you have no evidence to prove that.

Touché, Doc, at the moment I do not. However, it is only my opinion.  Smile
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