comorin
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Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:58 am

From The Guardian:

Iraq celebrates US troop pull-out on June 30th, declared a National Holiday.

The Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, fuelled US anger at the weekend by describing the withdrawal as the result of Iraq's successful bid to "repulse" the invaders. "We are on the threshold of a new phase that will bolster Iraq's sovereignty. It is a message to the world that we are now able to safeguard our security and administer our own affairs," Maliki said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde.

What gives? I would have thought the Iraqis would be grateful for the US liberating them from Saddam Hussein.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/28/iraq-holiday-us-withdrawal
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:24 am

I'm confident most Iraqis are happy we got rid of that madman (and yes, I've talked with A LOT of real US soldiers that have been over there, this isn't a bunch of Conservative lies) but still, no one wants military occupation. Can you imagine Bradleys or Strykers rolling down your street everyday? I think you misunderstood, they're grateful but happy we are pulling back.
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Aaron747
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:33 pm



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
I'm confident most Iraqis are happy we got rid of that madman (and yes, I've talked with A LOT of real US soldiers that have been over there, this isn't a bunch of Conservative lies) but still, no one wants military occupation.

A woman interviewed on CNN Int'l this evening said just as much. She said she hated Saddam and feared for her family under his rule but "can't feel anything like freedom or a new life until I don't have to see Americans and their weapons in the street anymore".
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comorin
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:10 pm

Seems like there are two points of view emerging in this thread:

1. The US had no business in Iraq, and that Iraqis would be outraged at foreign boots on their soil, not to mention the huge loss of life on their side.

2. Iraqis are grateful that Saddam is gone, but are tired of a military presence and want to get back to a normal life.

Looks like Point 1 is fast becoming a could've/should've issue for Iraqis, while Point 2 helps me understand the news item.

Falcon84, FLY2HMO, I'm fully with you but I started this thread to understand the other point of view.
 
dxing
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:35 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
A woman interviewed on CNN Int'l this evening said just as much. She said she hated Saddam and feared for her family under his rule but "can't feel anything like freedom or a new life until I don't have to see Americans and their weapons in the street anymore".

Which could mean several things. It could mean that she hates Americans and wants to see them gone or that she loves Iraq and is happy that she is free, thanks the Americans for what they did but won't feel like Iraq is completely normal and "Iraq" until the Americans are gone. A one liner like the one that in Le Monde where Maliki says:

"The Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, fuelled US anger at the weekend by describing the withdrawal as the result of Iraq's successful bid to "repulse" the invaders. "We are on the threshold of a new phase that will bolster Iraq's sovereignty. It is a message to the world that we are now able to safeguard our security and administer our own affairs," Maliki said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde."

which doesn't really explain what he means. By "repulse the invader" does he really mean the insurgents and the AQ fighters that flooded the country from other nations? Or the Americans? It could be any or all for that matter. Also notice that the description is not in quotes which to me means that is not exactly what he said. This harkens back to when the left completely misinterpeted Maliki saying he wanted the U.S. out immediately a few months ago when the U.S. withdrawl was being negotiated.

I'm happy that the Iraqis will have a day of celebration. They certainly deserve it as it has been a long struggle to freedom. If some don't like the Americans that's fine, that's what part of what freedom is all about. I just hope they respect the price paid for their freedom.

I tried to find an english version of the interview with the relevant interview but no luck. I'd like to see that just to see the exact quote or how it was misinterpeted.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 5):
2. Iraqis are grateful that Saddam is gone, but are tired of a military presence and want to get back to a normal life.

I would think that is the real point that the citizens and Maliki are trying to make and I would agree with them. It has taken a long time and it has been a hard fight. Of course there will always be those that want to live in the world of your point number one no matter how prosperus Iraq without Saddam becomes.
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mt99
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:49 pm

How much US Tax Payer money is being left on the ground for the people of Iraq?
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AGM100
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:33 pm

Firstly I am glad out troops are moving out of there.

It is up to the Iraqi's now to maintain peace , establish there leadership and build a safe society for its people. It can be done .. the Iraqi people will be better of without that bastard running there lives and killing them.

As far as them being " tired of seeing US troops" I hope they don't have to get tired of seeing Suni and Shia terror gangs running around there streets.. I hope not .

Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.
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comorin
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:44 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 8):
Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.

I think it's very different from 'Nam because there was no civil war that we stepped into. The enemy in this case has always been around but well contained by the Iraqis themselves, no matter how unpleasantly they did it. Now that Iraq has a fully functioning Army and Police, I think the risk may just be one of political will.
 
mt99
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:51 pm



Quoting Michlis (Reply 8):
So the next time the UN or some other country thinks we should get involved militarily we should decline. Some countries that come to mind are South Korea, and the nations of the European union should the bear to the east get frisky.

The difference being, is that in those cases you are being asked to butt in.
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AGM100
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:54 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 7):
think it's very different from 'Nam because there was no civil war that we stepped into

A totally different military situation of course. But the effects of a enemy " shock offensive" no matter how successful would be a big deal. The International press would have a field day with it " the mission would be painted as a total failure and that would be that.

Since we have a Commander in Chief and leadership who agree that this all is a giant mistake ...it would be interesting to see what our next move would be.
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michlis
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
The difference being, is that in those cases you are being asked to butt in.

But under the comment I replied to the insuation is that we should be keep our noses out of everyone's business regardless of whether we're invited or not. While we're at it, let's stop cutting checks to everyone...that should take a chunk out of the budget deficit.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
mt99
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:59 pm



Quoting Michlis (Reply 11):
While we're at it, let's stop cutting checks to everyone...that should take a chunk out of the budget deficit.

How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money? That will help too
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TSS
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:19 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money? That will help too

Since they didn't, as far as I know, invite us over there to depose Saddam in the first place I say we just consider this an expensive lesson learned and bow out with as much grace as possible.

As for the stated Iraqi attitude toward US forces... well, let's put ourselves in their position: Let's say we had the worst president ever, and a foreign power occupied our country specifically to remove him from power. Even if everything worked out for the best and we were much better off afterwards, wouldn't we still be more than a little pi$$ed off that a foreign power was occupying our country and meddling in our affairs?
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dxing
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:22 pm

This probably sums up the popular sentiment in Iraq more accurately:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090629/ts_nm/us_iraq

"More than six years of U.S. occupation and the orgy of sectarian violence it unleashed have left most Iraqis feeling ambivalent about U.S. forces.

Many complain their lives have improved little since then, with daily struggles caused by power cuts and water shortages.

"They did a good job getting rid of that tyrant, Saddam, and we thank them for that, but it's really time for them to leave," said Talib Rasheed, 70, sitting outside in one of Baghdad's leafier suburbs. "Maybe they could leave us some electricity?"


Maybe they should copy and pass the cap and trade legislation the House just passed? Millions of green jobs could be created and their energy problems solved.  devil 
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michlis
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:24 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money? That will help too

I don't have an issue with that...they owe us big time!

Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
As for the stated Iraqi attitude toward US forces... well, let's put ourselves in their position: Let's say we had the worst president ever, and a foreign power occupied our country specifically to remove him from power. Even if everything worked out for the best and we were much better off afterwards, wouldn't we still be more than a little pi$$ed off that a foreign power was occupying our country and meddling in our affairs?

No argument there.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
dxing
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:32 pm



Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
Even if everything worked out for the best and we were much better off afterwards, wouldn't we still be more than a little pi$$ed off that a foreign power was occupying our country and meddling in our affairs?

I guess that would depend on how many of your relatives and friends had been killed or tortured by that Presidents regieme now wouldn't it? Whether or not you had to live in fear of someone ratting you out falsely just to save their skin?
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AGM100
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:51 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 13):
Millions of green jobs could be created and their energy problems solved.

Its a snap ! Solar panels and wind mills ... man why didn't we think of that earlier!

To the gentleman who asked about us leaving them some electricity ., I suggest he do some research in to the massive effort undertaken by the American people to fix the Iraqi power grid.

At least 10 US States sent hundreds of people from there utilities ...and we sent billions of dollars worth of grid equipment. The counties system was a complete basket case . With the grid for the entire country essentially being routed into Bathist strong holds so that it could be switched on and off at will.

If he wants electricity he better demand it from his government ... this should be a high priority for the new government.. somehow I don't believe they have the will or the vision to do it sadly. Its easier to just blame us ...
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:11 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6):
Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.

Unfortunately, I think your analysis may prove to be quite accurate. I'm not sure how Obama would react. I don't think he would be willing to allow a big new surge, but maybe allow something smaller scale. But at some point in time, the Iraqis have to sink or swim on their own.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
If he wants electricity he better demand it from his government ... this should be a high priority for the new government..

Whoa, since when are we trying to spread socialism to Iraq. Shouldn't electricity be a priority for the free market to provide? Just kidding........
 
AGM100
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:26 pm



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Shouldn't electricity be a priority for the free market to provide? Just kidding........

A combined effort is what it will take. The electrical grid issue is going to be a major sign of how things are going.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:40 pm



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
I would have thought the Iraqis would be grateful for the US liberating them from Saddam Hussein.

Oh, they are. But they did not expect the U.S. to be still in Iraq this long, that is the problem. By continuing to 'occupy' Iraq, it prevents the people of Iraq from continuing on with their normal lives. It is now their turn to make their country a better place. Iraqi's are just tired of U.S. troops in their country, that's all.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 5):
How much US Tax Payer money is being left on the ground for the people of Iraq?

None, I hope!!!

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money?

That would be nice, no argument there.

Quoting Michlis (Reply 14):
...they owe us big time!

IMO, they don't owe us anything, really. They didn't ask us to liberate them from Saddam. As a matter of fact, from what I have read on these boards and in the news was that the people of Iraq were doing just fine under Saddam's rule in the final 5 or so years before 2003.
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mham001
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:01 pm

I wouldn't believe a word from the European media on the subject. Like somebody said, the "repulse" remark is not directly quoted and could be manipulated to mean multiple things.

If I were Iraqi, I would be happy to see US troops off the streets too. Time to move on.
 
Mir
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:00 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6):
Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.

But was that ever going to be avoided? Even if we stayed there ten more years, the terrorist elements could just wait it out - they're very well adapted to staying hidden. Sure, we could help root some of them out over that time, but that would be counterbalanced by the recruits they'd pick up as a result of Iraqi resentment for us hanging around.

It's going to happen eventually, we just have to hope for the best.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
comorin
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:14 pm

Really appreciate all the thoughtful and intelligent remarks so far.

Part 2 of my question concerns the 4000+ lives lost in this war. Again, there are two ways of looking at it:

1. Soldiers were carrying out a mission for their country. Casualties are to be expected - just like if you are a firefighter or policeman. An honorable death, in the fulfillment of one's duty. Comes with the job, which is why we honor them.

2. American lives, as well as Iraqi lives, were sacrificed so that Iraq could enjoy the fruits of democracy. If the Enemy returns to power, these lives were lost in vain.

To me, #1 seems more logical and applicable to a professional fighting force like the Armed Forces of the US. (I would like to include Allies as well).

What do you think?
 
mt99
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:16 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 22):
If the Enemy returns to power

Interesting. Roll with me here.. who was the enemy?
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AirframeAS
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:19 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 23):
who was the enemy?

That's easy: The members of the Baath Party.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
mt99
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:20 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):

That's easy: The members of the Baath Party.

The ones holding the WMDs?
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Kiwirob
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:23 pm



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
What gives? I would have thought the Iraqis would be grateful for the US liberating them from Saddam Hussein.

Yup I'm sure the Iraqis were happy with the hundreds of thousands killed, it's not like liberating Europe from the Germans, these people didn't want you.

Quoting DXing (Reply 4):
I just hope they respect the price paid for their freedom.

Which price the dead US servicemen who they don't give a crap about or the Iraqis killed as a result of the US invasion.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6):
the Iraqi people will be better of without that bastard running there lives and killing them.

I wonder if many think that his removal was worth all the deaths, the slide in sectarian violence, the destruction of infrastructure that was caused by the invasion.

Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
Even if everything worked out for the best and we were much better off afterwards, wouldn't we still be more than a little pi$$ed off that a foreign power was occupying our country and meddling in our affairs?

Well said.

Quoting Michlis (Reply 14):
I don't have an issue with that...they owe us big time!

I think the case is more like you owe them, you should pay for everything you damaged and pay reparations for the lives lost, I also think Bush and co should be prosecuted for war crimes, you can also ad Blair to that list.
 
Mir
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:28 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 23):
who was the enemy?

That's easy: The members of the Baath Party.

If that's the case, then I feel pretty confident that they won't be making a comeback. But what if the Iraqi democracy should turn into a religious theocracy in a few years? Would the lives lost be in vain then?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
these people didn't want you.

You can't really prove that either way.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
comorin
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:40 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 23):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 22):
If the Enemy returns to power

Interesting. Roll with me here.. who was the enemy?

Jeez, You know, all the unshaven guys with bad teeth hurling IEDs, suicide bombs and so on. Anyone who fires at you is de facto an enemy !

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
What gives? I would have thought the Iraqis would be grateful for the US liberating them from Saddam Hussein.

Yup I'm sure the Iraqis were happy with the hundreds of thousands killed, it's not like liberating Europe from the Germans, these people didn't want you.

One more comment like that and I'll stop drinking Cloudy Bay  Wink Seriously, I am trying to understand the situation here, and while you may feel strongly about this, aren't you just guessing about what an Iraqi feels?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 28):
One more comment like that and I'll stop drinking Cloudy Bay Seriously, I am trying to understand the situation here, and while you may feel strongly about this, aren't you just guessing about what an Iraqi feels?

I'm basing my opinion what I have learnt from several Iraqis who I go to Norwegian course with, they would have preferred to keep the status quo rather than the US ride in to fix things, the US liberation made things worse rahter than better. As one person said to me it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
 
Mir
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:52 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
I'm basing my opinion what I have learnt from several Iraqis who I go to Norwegian course with, they would have preferred to keep the status quo rather than the US ride in to fix things, the US liberation made things worse rahter than better. As one person said to me it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

That's one viewpoint, and I perfectly understand it. But you can't extrapolate "several Iraqis" to the entire country.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:54 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
Quoting DXing (Reply 4):
I just hope they respect the price paid for their freedom.

Which price the dead US servicemen who they don't give a crap about or the Iraqis killed as a result of the US invasion.

Number 1, I'm sure that not all Iraqis feel that way. As quoted in the story I referenced at least one does not. Number 2, as I stated freedom means the freedom to not give a crap about Americans if they so choose too, sorta like the French.  wink 
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MD-90
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:02 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 22):

Part 2 of my question concerns the 4000+ lives lost in this war. Again, there are two ways of looking at it:

There is a third way of looking at the war as well.

Thousands of soldiers/contractors died and thousands more were maimed for life for nothing. They were imperial soldiers in an American Empire that sought to control the world.
 
dxing
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:06 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 32):
Thousands of soldiers/contractors died and thousands more were maimed for life for nothing. They were imperial soldiers in an American Empire that sought to control the world.

And then the Death Star got blown up.  sarcastic 
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
The Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, fuelled US anger at the weekend by describing the withdrawal as the result of Iraq's successful bid to "repulse" the invaders. "We are on the threshold of a new phase that will bolster Iraq's sovereignty. It is a message to the world that we are now able to safeguard our security and administer our own affairs," Maliki said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde.

What gives? I would have thought the Iraqis would be grateful for the US liberating them from Saddam Hussein.

They WERE, back in 2003. But they now are looking forward to get rid of the US forces.
-

Quoting DXing (Reply 4):
By "repulse the invader" does he really mean the insurgents and the AQ fighters that flooded the country from other nations? Or the Americans?

-
BOTH. And you should realize that the so-called "elQaeda" (in reality just a kind of franchisee of eQ consisting of some fled thugs) only has been one of various extremist groups, and not even a really important one. It just became prominent due to the ugly methods used.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6):
I hope they don't have to get tired of seeing Suni and Shia terror gangs running around there streets..

-
Hardly. But they possibly will get tired of seeing Iraqi army units moving all around all the time.
-

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money? That will help too

-
Iraq did NOT ask the USA to get there.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
the massive effort undertaken by the American people to fix the Iraqi power grid.

-
"massive effort" to fix a power grid which before 1990 worked well, and even did work until 2003 ? I might suggest they ask a country for assistance, which to a heavy extent relies on electricity.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
a high priority for the new government..

-
a new government ? I have not yet heard about a new government yet ................
-

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):
who was the enemy?

That's easy: The members of the Baath Party.

the enemy of the USA in 2003 was the regime of Saddam Hussein and his secret service, but not the Socialist Ba'ath Party. This party as well as the Communist Party will get back into the open parliamentary frame in a not too distant future anyway.
-

-

Quoting Mir (Reply 27):
what if the Iraqi democracy should turn into a religious theocracy in a few years? Would the lives lost be in vain then?

-
While nothing is impossible, there is a far higher likelihood that the military may take power within a few years
-
 
comorin
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:26 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 32):
Thousands of soldiers/contractors died and thousands more were maimed for life for nothing. They were imperial soldiers in an American Empire that sought to control the world.

They died because they were doing their job. Even if you assume the Imperial soldier scenario, it still holds. You could say that they died serving American goals - with honor.

I'm just trying to say that the 'dying for nothing' is illogical - doesn't make sense to me. When you sign up as a soldier, you take on that risk. You don't get to pick the battle; you go wherever your mission takes you.

I post with the greatest respect for the fallen.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:27 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
the enemy of the USA in 2003 was the regime of Saddam Hussein and his secret service, but not the Socialist Ba'ath Party.

Uhhhh.....it was both as a matter of fact, IIRC....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
comorin
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:45 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
Quoting Mir (Reply 27):
what if the Iraqi democracy should turn into a religious theocracy in a few years? Would the lives lost be in vain then?

-
While nothing is impossible, there is a far higher likelihood that the military may take power within a few years
-

While I think Mir is posing a rhetorical question, it should be noted that Iraq was the most secular, middle-class country in the Middle East. Saddam's iron fist also kept it that way. If Iraq devolves into a theocracy or a military dictatorship, then it will be because the center could not hold - democracy was a weak force.

Saddam did well because Iraq could have split apart along ethnic lines without him holding it together. Would be nice if the US could stick around a bit longer, but Iraqis and Americans are getting tired of it all.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:46 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 32):
Thousands of soldiers/contractors died and thousands more were maimed for life for nothing. They were imperial soldiers in an American Empire that sought to control the world.

Glad you think a few of my friends died for "nothing." I guess helping Iraqi citizens is not important who cares about them?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
MD-90
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:37 am



Quoting Comorin (Reply 35):
I'm just trying to say that the 'dying for nothing' is illogical - doesn't make sense to me. When you sign up as a soldier, you take on that risk. You don't get to pick the battle; you go wherever your mission takes you.

There's a word left unsaid there. Dying for nothing useful.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
I guess helping Iraqi citizens is not important who cares about them?

How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens died as a result of our national government's invasion? 151,000 according to the WHO (only 2003-2006), 655,000 according to John Hopkins University researchers.

How many hundreds of thousands of refugees were created when we bombed their country? In 2007 the UN estimated that over 100,000 Iraqis were fleeing the country every month.

And you call this help?
 
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STT757
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:55 am

The US is not pulling out, they are ending the street patrols and pulling back to several enduring bases outside of the major cities. There are still 130,000 US troops in Iraq, also US forces will continue to patrol the Cities but with the Iraqi's in the lead.

In the long run the US will pull down to 4 mega bases plus a base adjacent to the US Embassy and Baghdad International airport, although nothing has been made official the US stated that there will be one base in Western Iraq, one in Southern Iraq, and two in Central/Northern Iraq.

The bases will most likely be..

Al Asad Air Base (Western Iraq), Marine Expeditionary Force
Camp Victory, Baghdad. Multi-National Force Iraq
Joint Base Balad
Tallil Air Base (Southern Iraq)
Camp Speicher (Tikrit)
Camp Taji ( ? )
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
NIKV69
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:55 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
can't feel anything like freedom or a new life until I don't have to see Americans and their weapons in the street anymore

Yea those guys who cut people's heads off and blow stuff up would be much better.  sarcastic 
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
baroque
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:37 am



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
no one wants military occupation

Why is it so difficult to grasp that populations do NOT like being occupied?

Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
Since they didn't, as far as I know, invite us over there to depose Saddam in the first place I say we just consider this an expensive lesson learned and bow out with as much grace as possible.

Ah, but has it really been learned? It was thought that the lessons of Vietnam would not evaporate, but they did, right down to the Tiger cages.

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
But was that ever going to be avoided? Even if we stayed there ten more years, the terrorist elements could just wait it out - they're very well adapted to staying hidden. Sure, we could help root some of them out over that time, but that would be counterbalanced by the recruits they'd pick up as a result of Iraqi resentment for us hanging around.

It's going to happen eventually, we just have to hope for the best.

Which is why leaving a power vacuum in 2003 was the second part of the disaster (first part was to destroy the most advanced society - overall - in the ME by invading), and the third part was to react by appearing to settle in as a permanent presence. The Iraqis are about as happy to be occupied by the US as the US is to be occupied by say, er well Mexico.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 25):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):

That's easy: The members of the Baath Party.

The ones holding the WMDs?

And by canning the Baath Party, the US removed the folk who could have managed a transition. They were the basis for the better parts as well as some of the worse parts of pre-invasion Iraq. As MAF points out, after 6 years, the US has still not got back to the pre war levels in many areas of basic amenities. Latest oil production is given at 2.4 million b/d
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8125731.stm
compared with the BP figure of 2.52 million barrels per day for 2001.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 28):
Seriously, I am trying to understand the situation here, and while you may feel strongly about this, aren't you just guessing about what an Iraqi feels?

Try reading a long interview (from 22 March 2009) with Maliki, that might help even if Maliki is an apologist for the status quo. It ends:
NOURI AL-MALIKI ((Translation): Of course, everything is preceded by talking thinking. Talking means thinking. And I believe no-one acts without thinking first.
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story...4/n/Interview-with-Nouri-al-Maliki
Now there is food for thought, wonder if he is meaning Mr Bush?

As to the big question, the interview starts thus:
GEORGE NEGUS: Prime Minister, thank you very much for giving us your time. To us, looking at what has been going on in your country for the last six years, it would appear that you have been in a living hell. Over those six years, depending upon whose source it is, somewhere between 91,000 and 600,000 Iraqi civilians have died. More than 4,000 American troops have died, billions of dollars have been spent and even now today, six years down the track, with Saddam gone, there are killings every day. Is that the price you had to pay to get rid of Saddam Hussein or was there another way?

NOURI AL-MALIKI, IRAQ PRIME MINISTER (Translation): I don't want to say that it was the only solution. There were other solutions but this is what occurred. The fact is, that is what happened, and the price was indeed high and expensive. But if the Iraqis compare what happened, despite the ugliness of the killing and bloodshed, with what it was like under Saddam Hussein, and his use of chemical weapons, burying people alive, wars... Despite the ugliness, it is not as bad as it was under that dictator.

Putting the two together, does Maliki think there was another way of getting rid of Saddam? Possibly at least if not probably.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money?

That would be nice, no argument there.

But would it be nice? The Iraqis might ask for an accounting of where the money actually went and that could prove very very embarrassing indeed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jul/07/iraq.features11

So, Mr Bremer, where did all the money go?

At the end of the Iraq war, vast sums of money were made available to the US-led provisional authorities, headed by Paul Bremer, to spend on rebuilding the country. By the time Bremer left the post eight months later, $8.8bn of that money had disappeared. Ed Harriman on the extraordinary scandal of Iraq's missing billions


And

The US Congress also voted to spend $18.4bn of US taxpayers' money on the redevelopment of Iraq. By June 28 last year, however, when Bremer left Baghdad two days early to avoid possible attack on the way to the airport, his CPA had spent up to $20bn of Iraqi money, compared with $300m of US funds. The "reconstruction" of Iraq is the largest American-led occupation programme since the Marshall Plan - but the US government funded the Marshall Plan. Defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Bremer have made sure that the reconstruction of Iraq is paid for by the "liberated" country, by the Iraqis themselves.

The CPA maintained one fund of nearly $600m cash for which there is no paperwork: $200m of it was kept in a room in one of Saddam's former palaces. The US soldier in charge used to keep the key to the room in his backpack, which he left on his desk when he popped out for lunch. Again, this is Iraqi money, not US funds.

Adding in Iraqi oil money, a proper accounting might well leave the US with a debt that could be a major part of about $32 billion a year - well over 100 billion not properly accounted for.
 
ual777
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:57 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 39):

How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens died as a result of our national government's invasion? 151,000 according to the WHO (only 2003-2006), 655,000 according to John Hopkins University researchers.

How many hundreds of thousands of refugees were created when we bombed their country? In 2007 the UN estimated that over 100,000 Iraqis were fleeing the country every month.

And you call this help?

OVER 90% of all civilian casualties in Iraq have been caused by terrorist/insurgent forces NOT the US.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:18 am



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 43):
OVER 90% of all civilian casualties in Iraq have been caused by terrorist/insurgent forces NOT the US.

Your statement, while ostensibly accurate, is ignorant of the reality that terrorist/insurgent forces in Iraq would not have been measurably present without the power vacuum created by our toppling of Saddam and successive de-Baathification. So, however you want to slice it, those deaths still occurred because of the original decision to topple, invade, and occupy.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AGM100
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:52 pm

Suicide bomber attack on our troops last day in Baghdad . A kiss good buy from the heroes who made decent so politically advantages for our traitorous leadership. The heroes of the current administration ... the freedom fighters so admired by the people of the world . A few brave fighters who dared stand up to the evil US imperialists .... Take you heroes and live with with them now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

I blame command for this outrage .... get our guys out of there ... if your gonna surender..pull out and get our guys out of there quickly. These death's are just heartbreaking ... .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ual777
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:00 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):

Your statement, while ostensibly accurate, is ignorant of the reality that terrorist/insurgent forces in Iraq would not have been measurably present without the power vacuum created by our toppling of Saddam and successive de-Baathification. So, however you want to slice it, those deaths still occurred because of the original decision to topple, invade, and occupy.

No sir. Those deaths occured because the terrorist/insurgent forces CHOSE to slaughter innocents by the bushel.

Was there a power vacuum? Yes. However loading a dump truck with fertilizer and detonating it in downtown Baghdad to strike 1 humvee is NOT the fault of the U.S. The blood is on their hands, not ours.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Mir
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:06 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
Which is why leaving a power vacuum in 2003 was the second part of the disaster

No argument there, but that really is "for future reference" information at this point. As far as the current situation in Iraq goes, it's water under the bridge.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 45):
Suicide bomber attack on our troops last day in Baghdad .

Very unfortunate. But I doubt that this is the last one. It's going to be some trying days for Iraq in the coming future. They're going to get tested, and I really hope they can hold together.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 45):
A kiss good buy from the heroes who made decent so politically advantages for our traitorous leadership. The heroes of the current administration ... the freedom fighters so admired by the people of the world . A few brave fighters who dared stand up to the evil US imperialists .... Take you heroes and live with with them now.

Are you trying to say that the Administration looks up to, or even supports, the sort of people who did this? Because that makes no sense.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MD-90
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:11 pm



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 46):
No sir. Those deaths occured because the terrorist/insurgent forces CHOSE to slaughter innocents by the bushel.

Would those deaths have occurred if we hadn't conquered their country?
 
AGM100
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RE: Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:16 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 47):
Because that makes no sense.

When it comes to Washington politics it does .. every one of the democrats in major power positions now ..railed against the war. They used the bad news to heighten there position on the war and too score political points .... the more bad news ..the better for them.. Even declaring victory for the enemy .. While I our guys were getting killed ! outrages ! and sad.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !

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