comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:31 pm

I noticed that the POTUS salutes the Marine fguard as he exits Marine One. Isn't this incorrect protocol? Aren't you just supposed to stiffen up in recognition, like standing at attention? Basically, you are not supposed to salute if you are not in uniform, AFAIK.

Servicemen, thanks for clearing this up.
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:35 pm



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
Basically, you are not supposed to salute if you are not in uniform

I recall seeing Dubya do it too although I always thought the same as your with regards to be being in uniform.

YOWza
 
whappeh
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:47 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:49 pm



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
Basically, you are not supposed to salute if you are not in uniform, AFAIK.

Wouldn't the President, who is Commander in Chief of the military (and thus in the military) over ride that? Every President has done it that I can remember.
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:30 pm

You are not required to salute if you or the higher ranking officer are not in uniform. Some service members do salute a higher ranking officer when out of uniform as a courtesy, but it is not required.

As for the POTUS returning a salute, they'll never be in a military uniform while holding the office obviously, so they do it out of courtesy as well. However, it is required that service members salute the POTUS.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:41 pm



Quoting Whappeh (Reply 2):
Wouldn't the President, who is Commander in Chief of the military (and thus in the military) over ride that? Every President has done it that I can remember.



Quoting Whappeh (Reply 2):
As for the POTUS returning a salute, they'll never be in a military uniform while holding the office obviously, so they do it out of courtesy as well. However, it is required that service members salute the POTUS.

My point is that even if you are a General in civilian clothing you do not salute, even as a courtesy. You either brace or stand at attention. How do I find out for sure? Perhaps there is an exception for heads of State.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:12 pm

It has been a longstanding tradition for the President to return the honor, and as Commander in Chief he is always to be saluted in situations requiring a salute. Same goes for SECDEF since he is also number 2 in everyone's chain of command.

There is no one of sufficient rank to tell the President he cannot return the salutes, so there you go.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:13 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
How do I find out for sure?

You could Google for the regs of the various services, but that might only tell you when saluting is forbidden.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
Perhaps there is an exception for heads of State.

The only one that I'm aware of is POTUS (probably VPOTUS as well). EDIT: SECDEF as well (thanks DLO21!)

In addition, Medal of Honor recipients rate a salute as well. They, like the President, are not required to return the salute, but will likely do so anyway.

[Edited 2009-06-29 10:15:01]
I lift things up and put them down.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 795
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:38 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
My point is that even if you are a General in civilian clothing you do not salute, even as a courtesy. You either brace or stand at attention.

I have never seen a general in civilian clothes, or uniform for that matter, stiffen up or brace to return a salute. In uniform they will salute you back, out of uniform they may salute you or they may just acknowledge and return your greeting.

Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
Isn't this incorrect protocol? Aren't you just supposed to stiffen up in recognition, like standing at attention?

It almost sounds like you are talking about rendering a salute for colors or the national anthem. If the anthem plays or the color guard passes and you are not in uniform then you stand at attention (no hand over the heart).

I am pretty sure every President has returned the salute of the Marine One crew chief.
Phrogs Phorever
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:09 pm

Thank you all for educating me on this topic - I'm just a humble, transplanted civilian!

I would be curious if this is also true in the case of Her Majesty's Forces - anybody from the other side of the pond reading this?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 5):
There is no one of sufficient rank to tell the President he cannot return the salutes, so there you go.

well, that settles it!  Smile

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 7):
out of uniform they may salute you or they may just acknowledge and return your greeting.

I didn't realize U.S. General Staff could salute when not in uniform.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:20 pm



Quoting Whappeh (Reply 2):
Wouldn't the President, who is Commander in Chief of the military (and thus in the military)

But he's not in the military. One of the very important things about the US government is that the military is under the control of the civilians, not the other way around.

The president is the Commander in Chief, but he is not a member of the military (even if he once served).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:12 am



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 7):
I am pretty sure every President has returned the salute of the Marine One crew chief.

All except one, once. He took so much grief for it he never did it again.

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
The president is the Commander in Chief, but he is not a member of the military (even if he once served).

Regardless he is at the head of the military food chain. Go into just about any HQ and you will see his picture followed by the SECDEF, followed by the secretary of the branch of that service, followed by the military head of that service, so forth and so on down to the level of the HQ you are in.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:06 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 10):
Regardless he is at the head of the military food chain.

Never said he wasn't, but he's still not a member of the military.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:30 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Never said he wasn't, but he's still not a member of the military.

Nor is the Queen of England I believe, yet is she not titular head of the military just as our President is? Just because the don't ordinarily wear, or aren't issued a uniform with rank on it does not mean they are not considered a vital part of the military and are not given the respect their individual titles deserve.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:44 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 12):
Just because the don't ordinarily wear, or aren't issued a uniform with rank on it does not mean they are not considered a vital part of the military and are not given the respect their individual titles deserve.

I don't disagree.

If you notice, my original response was to this:

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 2):
Wouldn't the President, who is Commander in Chief of the military (and thus in the military)

Which is not true. The president is certainly the commander of the military, and that position entitles him to respect by members of the military, but he himself is not a member of the military. If he were, then we'd have a country run by the military. But we don't - all three branches of the government are civilian.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:18 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
Which is not true. The president is certainly the commander of the military, and that position entitles him to respect by members of the military, but he himself is not a member of the military. If he were, then we'd have a country run by the military. But we don't - all three branches of the government are civilian.

He is the C in C, a civilian member of the military same as the SecDef and the Secretaries of the indvidual branches. Again, simply because he does not hold a military rank or not issued a uniform does not mean he is not in the chain of command in the military. You are correct that if he was we would have a military run government but the Founders saw the problem with that and worded the Constitution to ensure civilian control. However, that being said, if the President, on the day of his inauguration, gives the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs a legal order, the response is Yes Sir and the order is carried out just as if a brand new butter bar gave an order to a grizzled old Command Sargeant Major. The President salutes the military out of courtesy, the military salutes the President out of regulation.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
dragon6172
Posts: 795
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:13 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 8):
I didn't realize U.S. General Staff could salute when not in uniform

They are generals, have been in a long time, and pretty much do what they want. There is not a salute etiquette police out there, and if there was, what MP would dare tell a general that he was incorrect?
A bit of an extreme and sarcastic repsonse, but you get my drift. I do not believe the salute is sacred. A general or the President returning a salute when they are not in uniform does nothing to diminish what a salute stands for; it is respect and acknowledgement of a chain of command. Personally I would rather them return a salute out of uniform than give me a thumbs up or some other ridiculous gesture.
Phrogs Phorever
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:32 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 6):
In addition, Medal of Honor recipients rate a salute as well. They, like the President, are not required to return the salute, but will likely do so anyway.

Medal of Honor recipients invariably return salutes, although there are none remaining on active duty (that I know about) so it's sort of up in the air. Common military courtesy requires that salutes are to be returned, although as a previous poster mentioned out-of-uniform recipients occasionally are made uncomfortable by out of uniform salutes and simply acknowledge the courtesy via other means (a wave and handshake often does the trick).

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
The president is the Commander in Chief, but he is not a member of the military (even if he once served).

Dave, this is one of those things....the President is a member of the military in that he's the Commander in Chief. He and the SECDEF are the only civilian members of the chain-of-command, but the rank they hold is specific and due all the privileges and obligations of command.

Our military is certainly led by civilians at the top. They are certainly members of the military. And they oughta be....they're making decisions concerning life and death.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:43 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 14):

I get the feeling that all we're really arguing is semantics. I agree with everything you say regarding status and respect due him, and the fact that he gives the orders, etc. I just don't consider him to be an actual part of the military. His position was bestowed on him by popular vote of the people, something you can't really say about any member of the military.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Dave, this is one of those things....

Yeah, it probably is. He's both part of the military and not part of the military. Sort of like the whole Holy Trinity "God is one thing and three things at the same time" concept.*

-Mir

* Just to make things perfectly clear, my use of that analogy in no way constitutes a statement that Obama is God. That would just be silly.  Wink
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:53 am

The President, as CiC of the Armed Forces, is rendered full US military honors wherever he goes and it is entirely appropriate for him to salute back. This is the same when the President enters a room in a military atmosphere. The first person recognizing the President should call the room to attention, where it would be customary for him to order an "at ease" or "as you were" command to personnel present.

To touch on some other ideas that have been brought up, the standards saluting while out of uniform varies by branch as far as I am aware. I know that Army wise it is acceptable to salute an officer out of uniform, though most folks rarely do it and in my experience more something that is cordially shared by officers who are acquainted but are of different rank. I was having a conversation with one of my Marine Corps buddies a few weeks ago on this same topic and he found it odd that this practice would be acceptable. Regardless, I don't render a salute out of uniform and on the same don't expect to be saluted in civies. Just my perspective, hope this helps.

Bryan
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:12 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
but he's still not a member of the military.

You are correct that he is not a member of the military, but he is a member of the military Chain of Command.

He quite literally commands the military forces of the United States and has the legal authority to countermand orders, change any standing military orders, or issue new orders down to the individual level.

The US Constitution defines his role

Quote:
..shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.

General George Washington was appointed Commander in Chief by the Continental Congress - the only Commander in Chief who as not President at the time.

During his second administration, President Washington did assume field command of a federalized militia force of about 15,000 and led them in helping put down the Whiskey Rebellion.

President James Madison assumed personal command of field troops in battle during the British attacks on Washington.

President Obama has the authority to do so if he so chooses.

While the President not being a member of the military is a very important legal distinction, to members of the US military, he is part of their command structure - and rates a salute as being senior in rank to even the highest general/ admiral.

[Edited 2009-06-30 19:15:04]
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:15 am



Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 18):
Regardless, I don't render a salute out of uniform and on the same don't expect to be saluted in civies. Just my perspective, hope this helps.

Bryan

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.

It seems to me now that saluting is a tradition as much as a rule, and that what's common practice in one circumstance may be quite different in another.
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:48 am



Quoting Comorin (Reply 20):
It seems to me now that saluting is a tradition as much as a rule, and that what's common practice in one circumstance may be quite different in another.

Saluting is very much that, a tradition and a rule. It is perhaps one of the oldest signs of respect leading back to the Romans whom we adopted this practice from. I don't get too ruffled up if for some reason I am not saluted while on duty, on the other hand some guys really get their rocks off by locking guys up and making a scene out of it. I always look at the salute as a very basic measure of a person's level of professionalism and sense of respect toward a Commissioned Officer/Warrant Officer. I tend not to make a huge deal if I am not saluted while on duty, simple corrections are usually most effective if I make one and I have an impeccable memory for faces so I'll store the person away in the back of my mind as lacking basic discipline. Again, that's simply how I look at it.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
hercppmx
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:25 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:15 am

Salutes are used to acknowledge, Warrant officers, and Officers, as well as used as a sign of respect, In theory I could salute another enlisted member, while not a common practice it would still be deemed okay.
C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:35 am

Returning a salute to a 5 year old you thinks you are the greatest war hero ever...priceless.

And brings a smile.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 22):
In theory I could salute another enlisted member

Depends who's military you are in at the time. Some don't make a distinction between officers and enlisted in this regard.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 am



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 19):
You are correct that he is not a member of the military, but he is a member of the military Chain of Command.

I could definitely go with that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Euclid
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:42 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:05 pm

Interesting how different country's military etiquette will differ.

From my days in the South African Defence Force the rules were as they would probably be for most armies, any officer has to be saluted, and he must return the salute at all times.

Lower ranks (from lance corporal up to sargaent-major) had to be braced if the rank was higher than yourself, obviously.

Officers also had to salute more senior officers, as should be the case in most other miltary institutions, I presume.

However, the one difference that I have noticed from movies, however accurate that may be or may not be, is that the American military allows people to perform a salute even if not wearing a hat.

This was NOT allowed in the SADF. If you were not wearing a hat, maybe because you are indoors or for whatever reason, you DO NOT salute even the most senior general if he should happen to walk by. You were then just allowed to brace, in other words straighten up and put your arms to your sides, but this could be done even while walking, it was not necessary to stop and stand to attention. If, however, the general was wearing his hat, he had to answer your show of respect by saluting you, otherwise he would just have to brace in return.

Even if you and a person you knew to be of senior rank to you crossed paths while in civilian dress you would still be required to brace for him, even if not on military property. And obviously, if you were in uniform and he was in civvies, the salute was still required from your side.

Another thing that also came into play was when carrying a rifle. The rifle had to be shouldered if it wasn't already, and you would then have to salute onto the barrel of the rifle, not to your head. In other words, the rifle would be shouldered in your left arm and your salute would then be to bring your forearm up to your chest level with the ground and your outstretched hand, held parallel to the ground, would then be touching the rifle barrel with the side of the index finger.

Again, this was also only allowed while wearing a hat. If not, you just had to shoulder the rifle and brace. Rule number one for the SA military back then regarding saluting, you NEVER saluted if not wearing a hat.

However, not wearing a hat was only allowed indoors generally. If you ever went outside without a hat on you would for damn sure be in trouble if you did not have a hell of a good reason.

This means that, if played by our military rules, the President would be breaching military protocol if he answered a soldier's salute if he was not wearing a hat of some kind.
 
YYZatcboy
Posts: 1001
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:15 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:35 pm

Here in Canada only Commissioned officers get salutes. If the person who would be getting the salute is not in uniform or does not have their headdress on you do NOT salute them, but you still say "Sir/Ma'am". Coming to attention is the correct way to return a salute if not in uniform or without headdress on just in case someone does salute you anyway.

In Canada we do not salute without headdress, nor indoors (except for the Army IIRC). We also do not salute on board ship except when crossing the brow. We salute any woman who crosses the brow of a ship as well (civilian woman).

As to saluting a Civilian if they salute you... I asked a CPO1 once and he said that I could return their salute, since I'm an officer. NCM's often return the salute as well.
DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:17 pm



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 26):
Here in Canada only Commissioned officers get salutes. If the person who would be getting the salute is not in uniform or does not have their headdress on you do NOT salute them, but you still say "Sir/Ma'am". Coming to attention is the correct way to return a salute if not in uniform or without headdress on just in case someone does salute you anyway.

 thumbsup  Exactly! All Ex-Commonwealth Armed Forces follow that rule, which is why I was confused by POTUS saluting. I grew up in India, which as you know gets more British than Britain - especially around the Staff Officers' Club! I had presumed US military tradition was based on UK roots, 'Loo-tenant' notwithstanding  Smile
 
User avatar
ManuCH
Crew
Posts: 2677
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:33 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:22 pm

In case anyone is interested: in Switzerland, members of the army in uniform don't salute civilians (or other members of the military dressed in civilian clothing), and members of the army not wearing the uniform don't salute anyone either.

In other words: both *have* to wear a uniform for the salute to take place.
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:52 pm



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 28):
In other words: both *have* to wear a uniform for the salute to take place.

I suspect that the US Military is the lone exception given it's 'common-man' militia origins? Rank and Nobility were much abhorred in the fledgling democracy, even being an officer in those days had class connotations. It was common to buy a commission in HM forces in those days IIRC.

I wonder if West Point was modeled after Sandhurst?
 
jetstar
Posts: 1366
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:26 pm

When I was in the Air Force, many moons ago, I was taught that we were saluting the uniform, not the person. On base if one of the Generals was driving past on the road in his staff car and the large plate with the Generals stars was uncovered, then we were to salute the car because the General was inside.

I remember that saluting was not required on the flight line, I think that was the only exception to saluting outdoors.

JetStar
 
hercppmx
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:25 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:16 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 30):
I remember that saluting was not required on the flight line, I think that was the only exception to saluting outdoors.

Combat Zones, its not a very nice thing to salute officers then. It's the one time they take offense to it.
C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:02 am



Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 31):
Combat Zones, its not a very nice thing to salute officers then. It's the one time they take offense to it.

But the snipers on the wire love it!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:19 am

When I was in the Navy I was very quick to salute and appreciated the return, sometimes by some rather senior (for me) officers. I always considered it a respectful recognition & salutation that is returned.

And I can remember when I was living in Perth - my old XO was coming through town on a farewell tour. He was moving up from CINCPACFLT to CNO and I got an invite to a reception given for him. I can clearly recall polishing my shoes the night before and wearing a navy (colored) suit - as well as bracing a bit when I was introduced. As with many outstanding officers he smiled when his aide mentioned I had been on the LONG BEACH and we had a nice chat.

As for the CIC not being military, Ike was a retired General and was as close as they come in my lifetime. It is possible that we would at some point have a Reserve Officer (Enlisted/Warrrant?) member who was also a politician and was voted into office - or the office of VP and had to assume the duties. That would be interesting.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1373
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:37 am

National Guard members are normally required to salute their respective state governors.

As noted above, in the USAF a marked general's car is saluted.

The rules for saluting indoors were just recently updated as well.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:15 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 30):
When I was in the Air Force, many moons ago, I was taught that we were saluting the uniform, not the person.

Do you perhaps mean the "rank" and not the person? Lots of uniforms wandering around a military base on any given day.  wink 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
CXB77L
Posts: 2600
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 pm

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:15 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 8):
I would be curious if this is also true in the case of Her Majesty's Forces - anybody from the other side of the pond reading this?

If memory serves me right from my time in the Australian Air Force Cadets (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), Australian Defence Force members are required to salute:

The Queen or other reigning monarch
The Queen's standard
The Governor / Governor-General
The national flag, when it is being raised or lowered
The RAN and RAAF ensign, when it is being raised or lowered
Victoria Cross recipients, whether uniformed or not
Commissioned officers of higher rank, whether uniformed or not
Commissioned officers of other forces
Civilian wives of higher ranking commissioned officers
The quarterdeck of a HMAS vessel upon boarding or disembarking (I suppose, similarly, HMS vessels)
Any car on which star plates are displayed

The person who offers the salute must be in uniform, though the recipient may not necessarily be uniformed. If a member recognises an officer in civilian dress, they must offer a salute. If they are in civilian attire themselves, then a simple removal of head-dress and/or standing to attention will suffice.

[Edited 2009-07-02 01:21:01]
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:13 pm



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 28):
In case anyone is interested: in Switzerland, members of the army in uniform don't salute civilians (or other members of the military dressed in civilian clothing), and members of the army not wearing the uniform don't salute anyone either.

In other words: both *have* to wear a uniform for the salute to take place.

Well, with basically all male Swiss citizens being militia soldiers in the Swiss Army, you wouldn´t be able to stop saluting if you were to do it in civilian clothes...

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:44 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
It is possible that we would at some point have a Reserve Officer (Enlisted/Warrrant?) member who was also a politician and was voted into office - or the office of VP and had to assume the duties.

I believe that Sen. Lindsey Graham still maintains a commission in the Air Force Reserve as a COL. That's about as close as it it'll ever get.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:29 pm

As has been mentioned before, the President is the Commander in Chief. That's why he's saluted. The President does not wear a uniform since he (or she) fills the role as a civilian. As for saluting others while out of uniform, the rule is one member is out of uniform no salute is required. If I'm walking around on the base in civilian clothes and see a General walking around, I still won't salute. I'll offer a verbal greeting ("Good morning, General"), but no salute. The opposite situation is still the same result if I'm in uniform and see someone I recognize as a superior who is not in uniform. I'll offer a verbal greeting but will not salute.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 31):

Combat Zones, its not a very nice thing to salute officers then. It's the one time they take offense to it.

It's the rule that you don't salute in a combat zone.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 34):

As noted above, in the USAF a marked general's car is saluted.

However, a car with a Dallas Cowboy's license plate is not saluted (Unless it's the one finger salute!  biggrin  ) True story though. Poor kid at field training (our basic training for Air Force ROTC) saluted a car with a Dallas Cowboy's license plate on the front, thinking it was a Brigadier General staff car. Turned out to be the MTI's (Military Training Instructor) car too. His life sucked for a while.  rotfl 
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:05 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 39):
As has been mentioned before, the President is the Commander in Chief. That's why he's saluted. The President does not wear a uniform since he (or she) fills the role as a civilian. As for saluting others while out of uniform, the rule is one member is out of uniform no salute is required. If I'm walking around on the base in civilian clothes and see a General walking around, I still won't salute. I'll offer a verbal greeting ("Good morning, General"), but no salute. The opposite situation is still the same result if I'm in uniform and see someone I recognize as a superior who is not in uniform. I'll offer a verbal greeting but will not salute.

Thank you for making that clear. So going back to my original post, should the POTUS return the Marine's salute as he leaves Marine One? I know the POTUS can do what he pleases, I just need correct military protocol.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:07 am



Quoting Comorin (Reply 40):
I just need correct military protocol.

Since the Commander in Chief - President of the US - is not a member of the military, there is no correct military protocol. It is up to the descretion of the President. There is no written regulation in the US military defining the required actions for the President.

Also understand that rules which would apply to a military officer out of uniform do not apply to the President because he is not 'out of uniform'.

The practice of the President returning the salutes of military members of the US armed forces has become a tradition over the years.

It is also a politicial liability to NOT return the salute.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Saluting Civilians - Military Etiquette?

Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:07 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 41):
The practice of the President returning the salutes of military members of the US armed forces has become a tradition over the years.

Thank you. That clears it up for me - if it's part of tradition then I understand.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ltbewr, raaadek, WarRI1 and 10 guests