rabenschlag
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:39 am

Given the surge in unemployment rates in many industrialized countries, I thought it would be interesting to learn how societies support those who lost their jobs. Here is what roughly (roughly because there are a number of sophisticated details how things are calculated, which I omitted) happens in Germany:

When an employee loses his/her job, he/she will receive 60% of her last net salary (67% if the person has children) for one year. This support is paid unconditionally (except that you have to prove that you lost a paid job). You may keep all your assets. Health care will be fully covered.

After that, should unemployment persist, the person is expected to use his/her wealth to support him/herself. So you'll have to cash your funds, sell your car or house and so forth (there are exceptions) until your wealth has shrunk to a relatively low level which is age dependent, but is about 10.000 Euro at max. You'll need to take care for your health insurance yourself.

When most of your wealth is gone (or you never had some), you are entitled to receive basic support. This includes:
- The apartment will be paid (roughly one room per person) including heating
- 351 Euros will be paid to cover all other needs (food, water, clothing etc.) for one adult (316 pp when two adults live together)
- 280 Euros for every child (slight differences depending on the age of the child)
- Full cover health insurance for every family member

So, for example, a family of two parents and two children above 14 will receive 1.200 Euros plus the money for a simple four room apartment plus heating.

A fulltime job at McDonalds pays you about 900 Euros after tax including health insurance.

This money is paid indefinately but conditionally. The responsible agency can offer jobs to you and if you refuse to accept the offer, they can reduce the support. So, for instance, if an accountant receives such support, he can be forced to clean toilets or to help harvesting fruit for little more money than he receives without work. If he refuses, support will be reduced.

So what about your country?
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:25 am



Quoting Rabenschlag (Thread starter):
When an employee loses his/her job, he/she will receive 60% of her last net salary (67% if the person has children) for one year. This support is paid unconditionally (except that you have to prove that you lost a paid job).

"Unconditionally" as long as

a) you have have paid into the German unemployment insurance for at least one full year before applying for your benefits and

b) it's not your fault you lost your job.
I support the right to arm bears
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:47 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 1):
b) it's not your fault you lost your job.

If you get yourself fired because you f*cked up or if you resigned yourself and then can´t find a new job, you´ll be blocked from receiving this unemployment money for 6 weeks. If you find yourself laid off with no fault of your own, and as NoUFO said, you had previously paid into the social insurance system for at least one year (compulsory for employees in Germany), you´ll get the full amount right away.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:55 am

No such assistance out here on date.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:24 am

Now the rest of the world knows where the land of milk and honey really is.

What Germans still don't know, we can't afford that any longer since probably 20 years or so.

That system is going down the drain sincx eit is too costly and takes away too much money from those who work in favour of those whpo don't.

Every Euro pay increase nets an employee something like 30/35 cents, on an average salary.

This is grand theft.



.
powered by Eierlikör
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 21035
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:38 am

In Ireland there are two types of benefit::

Job Benefit :

If you have paid your contributions to the tax office and you are reduced from full time from say 5 days a week to 1/2 or 3 days a week you can claim for the days you dont work. Its around €40 a day. That normally runs for a period of 12 months but at the moment its so hard to find a job they are not enforcing it.

Job Seekers allowance :

If you are actively seeking work and cant find it and you have savings below €20,000 you can get an allowance of €204 per week. You can also claim free healthcare. If you rent a place you can also apply for rent allowance.

If you are on long term benefit and cant find a job then you can also claim discounts off your telephone/TV License and electricity bill.

I think its a fair system and not too much as the cost of living here in Ireland is quite high. Also there is high unemployment and I know people who are begging for jobs after being made redundant and they truly deserve this money as they have worked all their lives and are not cheating the system.

I do think that you should have paid at least 2 years taxes to be able to claim though if you are a non Irish citizen. Alot of talk has been going on here about how some migrants have come here and worked for 6 months then are allowed to claim €204 a week !!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:09 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
Now the rest of the world knows where the land of milk and honey really is.

What Germans still don't know, we can't afford that any longer since probably 20 years or so.

That system is going down the drain sincx eit is too costly and takes away too much money from those who work in favour of those whpo don't.

Every Euro pay increase nets an employee something like 30/35 cents, on an average salary.

This is grand theft.


Bullsh*t.
As an employee (and blue collar worker) I always paid into the system, but never took anything out of it.
I know that employers are bitching about the system, because they have to carry 50% of the premiums and they´d rather keep this money for themselves. I also assume that quite a few employers would like to have social security conditions like in China, so that there always exists a Lumpenproletariat who´d do the dirty jobs for a pittance.
What I agree with though is that the authorities have to be harder against freeloaders and social security cheats. In this case I can quote Lenin (in a slightly modified form): "Who is able to work and doesn´t work shall not eat!" .
Unfortunately there are too many loopholes for lazy people to slip through if they think an offered job is beneath them.
E.g. they´ll simply get a slip from a doctor stating that they have a health issue and therefore can´t do the job (obviously if, as stated above, a fulltime job at e.g. McDonalds pays less than the dole money, but for this minimum wages should come into play. If you are working you should see a benefit from it).
Another issue I have with many German unemployed is the lack of willingness to relocate to get a job. There are jobs around, but mostly not within walking distance of one´s home. Even though the labour office will help with relocation costs to get a dole recepient back into work, many people still refuse job offers from other cities, states etc. (and unfortunately get backed up by legal courts) due to their social network (friends, family etc.).
I have been travelling over half of Europe to follow work and this is one issue I really can´t understand.
Another issue is "black work". This means working illegally for someone without paying tax and social security dues. Obviously those doing this can easily undercut the rates set by legal work. Additionaly many of these illegal workers are at the same time registered as unemployed and are cashing dole money, plus having all their health insurance money paid by the government. This basicaly like having two salaries, in the end they´ll take home twice as much as legal workers. But this gain is a matter for the police and customs (tax and social security fraud, which both are criminal offenses, both for the worker as well as for the employer) and needs to be enforced.

And for employers, if they are acting e.g. like my current one, I don´t have much sympathy for them. Stuff like weird business decision, where anybody who has some experience in the industry could tell that they are just wasting money (but they don´t listen to us and are just repeating the same mistakes made by the previous companies in here), buying luxury cars for the management, while not buying essential tools and equipment for the production, hiring lots cheap, useless monkeys, who in the end come more expensive and get less work done than a smaller number of qualified, good workers, these are all things I don´t understand. Sometimes I have the feeling that they want to run the company intentionally into a loss. It has happened before wirh companies here just syphoning off government subsidies and then closing down shop. instead of longterm thinking.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:43 am



Quoting Rabenschlag (Thread starter):
When an employee loses his/her job, he/she will receive 60% of her last net salary (67% if the person has children) for one year

We have a similar system, an unemployment insurance deal. Here it's generally handled by the unions, and is somewhere around 80% of your last net salary. After 200 days, it goes down to 70%.

Then there's welfare of course, which like in Germany is conditioned. One needs to continually apply for jobs, and be able to show that one is doing so. IIRC, there are new rules, which mean that if a job in another town or country is offered, and the commute is "reasonable", one has to take it, or lose welfare. Not totally idiotic, but I worry what effects that can have on single parents.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:45 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
know that employers are bitching about the system, because they have to carry 50% of the premiums and they´d rather keep this money for themselves. I also assume that quite a few employers would like to have social security

This is not the employers money, it is YOUR money. You are as the majority of the employed Germans a victim of the bull which is mouthed by politicians of all parties msince decades.

The 50% on the social contributions are part of your income., Make the calculation yourself, add the "employers share" which will top of your gross pay by about 20%. These 120% are your gross income.. That is what you cost your employer directly. On top of that he has to add the costs of vacation, sick time etc, but we leave that aside.

Now compare your real gross income with what you get net, paid out monthly to your bank account. Makes you sick, right?

Wouldn't it be much better oif some of these goodies are simply axed, make people more responsible for themselves and have them get more net in their pockets?

Thinkg about it.
powered by Eierlikör
 
rabenschlag
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:37 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Wouldn't it be much better oif some of these goodies are simply axed, make people more responsible for themselves and have them get more net in their pockets?

Well, the 351 Euro is the absolute minimum to survive in most parts of Germany. Can't see where goodies are handed out.

Also, increasing the pressure would make sense if there were any chances on the job market. But there is no way that the 4 million people without a job can find one that pays for their living.

Also, keep in mind that people get less than the absolute minimum if they refuse to accept job offers.

So I cannot see what you meen by making people more responsible. Do you mean that we should let them starve although they have no chance to find a job?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9963
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:48 pm



Quoting Rabenschlag (Thread starter):
So, for example, a family of two parents and two children above 14 will receive 1.200 Euros plus the money for a simple four room apartment plus heating.

Per week or per month, including or excluding tax?
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:54 pm



Quoting Rabenschlag (Thread starter):
When most of your wealth is gone (or you never had some), you are entitled to receive basic support. This includes:
- The apartment will be paid (roughly one room per person) including heating
- 351 Euros will be paid to cover all other needs (food, water, clothing etc.) for one adult (316 pp when two adults live together)
- 280 Euros for every child (slight differences depending on the age of the child)
- Full cover health insurance for every family member

It should be read by each and every French, as the usual debate in France is about the social system which is "the most expensive" in the world.  Smile
I knew that it was untrue, but here is one example of a country where the social system is much more advanced. I know that Denmark spends also more money than France for the social system.

Germany and Denmark are NOT exactly countries with economical difficulties compare to France.
One more proof that the right wing politicians try to cut down the social system for false reasons, and that they lie to the population about it.

In France, if you have nothing left from the job insurance, you'll have the RSA (formerly the RMI) which is about 500 Euros/month (but only if you are over 25) I think, and full health insurance. That's it.
 
rabenschlag
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:55 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 10):
Quoting Rabenschlag (Thread starter):
So, for example, a family of two parents and two children above 14 will receive 1.200 Euros plus the money for a simple four room apartment plus heating.

Per week or per month, including or excluding tax?

Sorry - I have to qualify this. All sums are on a per month basis. And since the money comes from the state anyways, there is no tax to be paid. So that is what ends in their pockets every month.

And the 900 Euros is what ends in a burger flippers pocket every month.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:00 pm



Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 9):
Well, the 351 Euro is the absolute minimum to survive in most parts of Germany. Can't see where goodies are handed out.

I was not talking about welfare. my friend. I was talking about a regular employee making a monthly salary.

But while "you can't see where the goodies are handed out" I might as well tell you. It is not the € 351,00, it is the rent, the health insurance and they even get paid pension insurance on top of that. plus single payments for furniture, washing machine, whatever is needed and approved. , and when you have kids and a spouse, that money goes on top of it.

A guy with a family of three, five or more without any formal or vocational education would be gross stupid to work. He nets far more on welfare than , as an unskilled worker, could ever make by working, And if he is street wise, which many of those are, he works a little on the side, cash in the hand, to pay for the habits they usually havem which is smoking and booze. And these are nmot stereotypes, thats the daily soap in Germany.

And you know what, the average guy with the average salary has to pay for them.

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 9):
Also, increasing the pressure would make sense if there were any chances on the job market. But there is no way that

make employment cheaper and you will see miracles happen. A job is only a jpob when your employer gets a bit more from his customer for what you are doing than he has to pay you. If he has to pay you too much, he cannot pass on the costs to his customer eventually and there is no job. This is pretty simple business 1x1, unfortunatley, its not taught at school in Germany, may be because that enlightenment would put the end o the welfare state.

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 9):
Also, keep in mind that people get less than the absolute minimum if they refuse to accept job offers

and that ois excellent, because there is absolutely no right to live on the expense of others while you could contribute to your upkeep.

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 9):
So I cannot see what you meen by making people more responsible

you, me, we are all responsible for ourselves. There's nothing wrong about that. Do you really want to depend on others? Social security should be there for all those who cannot take care of themselves because they are handicapped, it is perfectly alright for young single mothers who raise kids. Raising kids is a contribution to the public.

The general rule should be, if you accepot money from the public, from the tax payers or those you pay into the pot, you should give a service to the public in return. There should be no alimentation without reciprorcation. Moonlighting (Schwarzarbeit) is something in the regiuon of 365 billion annually. If all those who freceive from the poublic without having to be present would be asked to show up at 8 am or forfeit benefits, that market would be almost dried up.

BTW moonlighting is tax evasion, if that market dries up, it would be good for the national economics and lower overall taxes would be possible.
powered by Eierlikör
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:08 pm



Quoting Sebolino (Reply 11):
Germany and Denmark are NOT exactly countries with economical difficulties compare to France

yes, but Germany oculd do much better if mental sanity instead of political populism finds its way into the system, we are forking out these goodies at the expense of future generations.

the main difference between the German and the Danish system is that the danes demand a contribution, they demand qualification, additonal courses etc., whereas in Germany you might as well go to the beach, even if the beach is in Mallorca and collect the benefits.

Like I said, show up at 8 to take your qualification courses, or if you are intelecually not qualified to qualify yourself pick up trash in the streets or whatever there is available, but the simple rule should be the chinese wisdom NO SHOW NO MONEY.
powered by Eierlikör
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:36 pm

In most states in the US, you can collect unemployment payments for up to 39 weeks. Sometimes this can be extended for another 52 weeks. The payments are made either weekly or bi-weekly, depending on the state. Each state manages their own program, and the amunt you can collect varies greatly by state, as well as the size of each family. For example California pays more than twice as much as Texas pays. Unemployment compensation is also taxable with federal and state income taxes.

Employers pay for the unemployment funds, employees do not contribute at all.

[Edited 2009-07-03 06:37:22]
 
andaman
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:29 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:46 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 7):
We have a similar system, an unemployment insurance deal. Here it's generally handled by the unions, and is somewhere around 80% of your last net salary. After 200 days, it goes down to 70%.

Basically the same idea in Finland, you get the earnings-related unemployment allowance from your union for 500 days max, next step is the much lower basic unemployment allowance.
There's different kind of support for young (to get them back to the 'system' quickly) and unemployed immigrants, for an example.

At the moment I am on 'job alternation', its a system that helps both unemployed people and the old work horses like me who need a break. You can get a 3-12 months long partly-paid sabbatical if your employer hires an unemployed person to substitute you. I got an eight months long break, the state pays me around 50% of my last net salary and I will get my old job back in January. And someone else got an work opportunity.

[Edited 2009-07-03 08:05:07]
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:20 pm



Quoting Andaman (Reply 16):
you get the earnings-related unemployment allowance from your union for 500 days max, next step is the much lower basic unemployment allowance.

Thats about 20 months.

I don't know all of the things about collecting unemployment in the US, as I never had to do that. I have worked for more than 40 years, and am now retired, twice.
 
threeifbyair
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:05 pm

In my state (Washington), unemployment benefits are fairly modest:

Eligbility requirements are minimal: you must have laid off, and you must have worked at least 680 hours in the state in a qualifying job (most jobs qualify: a few employers are not covered, including religious organizations, commission-based sales, real estate agents, etc.).

Payments are based on how much you earned in your old job, but the maximum benefit is currently $541/week. The minimum benefit is $85/week. Due to the recession, the government has increased benefits by $70/week.

As an example, somone making $10/hour (a bit more than McDonalds wages), working 40 hours/week, would get $200/week based on earnings + the additional $70 in temporary benefits.

To maintain benefits, you must prove that you contacted at least 3 employers each week, or participated in job-training or other employment programs.

No health insurance is available for the unemployed.

Overall, unemployment benefits are minimal. Financial planners generally advise people to have an emergency fund to cover at least 6 months of living expenses to compensate for the low benefits, but unfortunately, few people did this before the recession.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:39 pm



Quoting Threeifbyair (Reply 18):
In my state (Washington), unemployment benefits are fairly modest:

In Texas to collect benefits, you must have also been laid off, but under some cercumstances, those who were fired can collect, too.
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13072
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:01 pm

Here in Costa Rica, Social Security is the national universal healthcare system. It also brings along several disadvantages:

1. If you need to call in sick or are unable to work due to sickness or physical injury, you need to justify it by having a doctor from Social Security fill out a formal sick note. And if you have a private doctor declaring you incapacitated for work for a time, you won't get the 60% that you're entitled to paid at all, unless you go to a clinic (Clínica) or a small regional medical facility (EBAIS) to have a doctor from Social Security validate that sick note with a sick note from Social Security.
2. The 9% fee that is automatically deducted from your salary for Social Security, isn't even properly invested. It's only used to pay off the upper management of Social Security, and none of that is invested in much needed renovations and modernisations of hospitals, as well as improving the national ambulance system, which is pretty much dependent on the Costa Rican Red Cross.

On a personal note, when my father was last taken to the hospital because of seizures that he had, the ambulance that came only had one (!!!) guy, specifically the driver. Only the driver was on that ambulance, nobody else. My father could have chocked on the way because of the breathing problems that he experienced. Fortunately, he's still alive, sometimes frustrated and depressed, but still alive and even driving (as long as someone is along with him, in case something goes wrong).

After the experiences my family has had with the national health care system in Costa Rica, I have concluded that universal health care is a failure. I am in favour of a system that exists in Germany, but not of a universal health care system, where everything has to go through it (even if you're under private treatment), and where you try to provide a very deficient service, at the expense of tax payer's money.

Back to the actual question on unemployment benefits, they do not exist in Costa Rica. Sure, you do get paid severance (days of vacation that were not taken plus 13th month pay until the day of dismissal) when you're fired or if you resign, and get something called a "Cesantía", which is a bonus to your severance pay if you're laid off (or what they call a "Despido con responsabilidad patronal"), but genuine unemployment benefits do not exist, not even in the national Labour Code. And even if you're entitled to the severance bonus (the above mentioned Cesantía), there's no guarantee your former employer will be willing to pay for it, as has happened a few times in my workplace with other people.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:13 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
But while "you can't see where the goodies are handed out" I might as well tell you. It is not the € 351,00, it is the rent, the health insurance and they even get paid pension insurance on top of that.

Ok, where are the "goodies"?
I think those payments are justified, not to mention that you only receive them as long as you have less than 6,000 Euros in savings.
What exactly do you want? No health insurance for the unemployed?
I support the right to arm bears
 
ag92
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:23 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:41 am

There isn't much in Singapore, but for the really poor then there are a few benefits such as an extremley low rent on the apartment and stuff, but not like if you loose your job then you get 80% of your salary or anything, if you loose it then you loose it you will have to live off your life savings until you really can't support yourself. A guy we know is desperate for welfare, but is not getting it though, so I don't really know the exact requirements of getting it, because he does seem to be in a very poor state without any permanent home either but he has been rejected numerous times
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:23 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
What exactly do you want? No health insurance for the unemployed?

I just want to mind my own business.

What I said is that it is not the € 351,00 a welfare recipient in Germany gets. He gets much more, including health insurance (for which I have to pay € 700 per month alone, most of it in taxed money) plus housing, pension contribution etc. If he sweeps the streets for an additional € per hour, hthe proper calculation is to divide the total contributions to that person and divie it by the hours worked. That usually results in a hourly pay for over welfare recipients of over 10€. Like I said, the land of milk and honey.

It is not someting I want or don't want, I simply state a fact.

Fact is also, that we all, as tax payers and consumers have to pay for that. We have to pay for it as taxpayers but also with every item we buy at th supermarket, every service, every cup of coffee we buy at Starbucks.

The costs of the social contributions by the employers and the wages are calculated into the end users prices.

Fact is also, that very few Germans are aware of that because there is practically no business education at schools.
powered by Eierlikör
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:42 am

As my always boss says, we also need uneducated labourers, who else would clean the aircraft for him, hard work for lousy pay?

Also, let´s imagine we get rid of the existing German social security system. Now what would happen to the employer´s contributions? I don´t think that they would be paid out to the employee to be invested for his security. It would simply be a paycut, the money would stay in the boss´s pocket.

Don´t missunderstand me though, I'm against freeloaders and I think that the existing laws against social security cheats should be strictly enforced, and also that people on the dole should be forced to accept whatever job is available at the time, no matter where it is located and how sh*tty it is. Once you have worked for a while in a lousy job, you have proven your attitude towards work and you can always apply for a better job.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:56 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
Also, let´s imagine we get rid of the existing German social security system. Now what would happen to the employer´s contributions? I don´t think that they would be paid out to the employee to be invested for his security. It would simply be a paycut, the money would stay in the boss´s pocket.

I am not saying that we should get rid of the system, we should just make sure that the freeloaders get a hard time.

One thing you can be sure about, nothing stays in "your boss' pocket" if labour becomes cheaper by 20% from one day to the other. Competition in all areas of business is so fierce that this advantage is passed on to the customer in no time.
powered by Eierlikör
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:13 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
What Germans still don't know, we can't afford that any longer since probably 20 years or so.



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
Ok, where are the "goodies"?
I think those payments are justified, not to mention that you only receive them as long as you have less than 6,000 Euros in savings.
What exactly do you want? No health insurance for the unemployed?

The goodies are somewhere else. Our pension system. Germany has to borrow some 80 billions a year to finance the pension system... That's where the true bomb in our social security system ticks.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 11):
I know that Denmark spends also more money than France for the social system.

Germany and Denmark are NOT exactly countries with economical difficulties compare to France.

But unlike us Germans and French the Danes invest in their work force. And the Danish system has abonded the idea that capitalist employers are the devil and must be hindered by a bulk of regulations. The Danes know that business needs to prosper in order to pay the bills of the their social security.

pelican
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:28 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
Competition in all areas of business is so fierce that this advantage is passed on to the customer in no time.

If you look at our fiercest competitors you´ll see that they are mostly developing countries with a huge reservoir of Lumpenproletariat, empoverished unskilled labourers, who are willing to do any job, no matter how dirty or dangerous, for a few cents. This obviously also makes living expenses for the educated middle to upper class cheaper. E.g. while here a rubbish disposal worker earns a relatively good salary and has both medical as well as social security for his hard, but mentally and educationally not very demanding job, in those countries he´ll have to do it for a starvation salary and no security at all. Obviously the higher salaries here will have to be covered by the customers, in this case the middle to upper class.
If he demands more, e.g. in countries like China, he´ll get kicked out, or in the worst case thrown into jail, because there are plenty more of poor peasants, who´ll gladly do the job for him.
Look at the people who built up Shanghai or worked until recently in the factories of souther China: A few Euros as wages, sleeping in dormitories or out on the construction sites in half-finished buildings and no social or legal security at all.
We had this situation here as well, during the mid 19th century, and it almost lead to a violent revolution. This is why the arch-conservative Bismarck introduced the German social security system.
Social and political stability are also very important to make a country interesting to investors.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:24 am



Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):
But unlike us Germans and French the Danes invest in their work force. And the Danish system has abonded the idea that capitalist employers are the devil and must be hindered by a bulk of regulations. The Danes know that business needs to prosper in order to pay the bills of the their social security

 checkmark 

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 27):
If you look at our fiercest competitors you

look what Peilcan wrote, he is dead rght and you should stop thinking in boxes. You are skilled, you have a job that requires training. May be you need a licence to do the job which is not issued by your employer. In other words, you have an asset which you can sell to your employer.

Your employer still has to sell your costs to his customrs. If you are doing line haul maintenace , that cannot be done in China. If you're in MRO only those companies that spread their cost base worldwirde, but also go where their customers want them to go will survive.

To make a long story short, your assumption that your employer could be able to keep cost savings in his pockets have nothing to do with market reality. Cost savings make your employer more competetive, eventually he can get more business because he can offer better prices.

OTH, don't dream that the German "social costs" will go down but everyone who is employed should pressure politics in that direction, because it makes jobs more secure.

We don't live in Germany anymore, since a couple of years we live in the single market area and in the aviation industry, we live in one of the most competetive world wide environments which is may be only topped by international shipping. They can do already what airlines eventually may be able to in a couple of years, ship anything from anywhere to anywhere.

We should be prepared when that comes around. The Emirates are already prepared today.
powered by Eierlikör
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:32 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
I just want to mind my own business.

Does that translate into "he lost his job, then his home and health insurance? Cut me some slack, after all I can save some taxes!"?

Imagine you lose your job and then get diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis (one out of 700 adults in Germany suffer from MS). The drugs alone will cost you some 18,000 Euro each year. That's twice as much as you're paying into the system now.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Wouldn't it be much better oif some of these goodies are simply axed, make people more responsible for themselves

What "goodies"? More responsible for themselves? I hope you have started saving some money (tons of money actually) in case your job gets axed and you get diagnosed with MS, Diabetes or - worse - cancer. And even if you could afford it - many people can not. What kind of responsibility are you talking about? It's certainly not the society's responsibility to ensure support if need be.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
we are forking out these goodies at the expense of future generations.

You still didn't mention what kind of goodies those are.
And you know what? We are *all* living at the expense of future generations as long as we are not willing to significantly reduce our carbon footprint, as long as we continue to exploid natural resources and - sorry, I can't resist: spend bailout money on an economic system that, as soon as it starts to recover, falls into the same old scheme.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
they demand qualification, additonal courses etc., whereas in Germany you might as well go to the beach, even if the beach is in Mallorca and collect the benefits.

Double Bull$hit. You *have* to attend courses and *have* to stay in the county (there's no 'r' in the last word!). If you want to visit friends outside of the county covering the expenses of your benefits, you *have* to ask for permission beforehand. Three weeks/year is the absolute maximum they will grant you.
You *have* to prove that you continue to apply for jobs, you *have* to accept work offered to you, and you *have* to prove that you take efforts moving intro a cheaper flat if the current one is too expensive. So, what's left?

[Edited 2009-07-06 04:38:38]
I support the right to arm bears
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:26 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Does that translate into "he lost his job, then his home and health insurance? Cut me some slack, after all I can save some taxes!"?

t measn what it says, I want to mind my onw business and not other peoples business. The basics like the necessary insurances are part of the system. I have to pay for my own and I am not taking away anything from other people, OK?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):

Imagine you lose your job and

I am self employed. I walk the rope without net.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
You still didn't mention what kind of goodies those are.

I did, you just don't want to understand it. We are enjoying the best social system in the world, but we live in a single market and have to compete, that is not understood. I don't want to axe the system, I want to axe the abuse of the system.

What you refer to as "bailout", first of all, politics has a good share of fault, but that's another story. If it was up to me, I would have send Opel into chapter 11, which might have been much better for the jobs BTW than the agony Mr, Steinmeier has provoked. But as I said, that would be another thread.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Double Bull$hit. You *have* to attend courses and *have* to stay in the county (there's no 'r' in the last word!). If you want to visit friends outside of the county covering the expenses of your benefits, you *have* to ask for permission beforehand. Three weeks/year is the absolute maximum they will grant you.

you know how lax this is handled? You know that you can literally p*ss off to somewhere and hardly get any sanctions? You know that you can moonlight and the snoozehead at the Jobs office does not even realize it? As I said, I want to axe the abuse of the system, not the system.

This goes on for decades now. If you ever had the fun of employing people, I am in airreight, and the jobs office send you someone for a warehouse job, the first word they say in best Frankfurt drawl, they cannot lift more than 5 kgs and they don't have a forklift licence either, I had that 30 years ago and they still come around and there are still no sanctions. These guys can cheat themselves through the years at the expense of others, who pay for tem by their monthly contributions.

If you seek employees in this country, don't go to the Arbeitsamt, and if someone ambitious is registered with the Arbeitsamt they should not rely on the job offers they get from them. Self initiative is the word, and that is what I mean with responsibility.
powered by Eierlikör
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:53 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
you, me, we are all responsible for ourselves. There's nothing wrong about that. Do you really want to depend on others? Social security should be there for all those who cannot take care of themselves because they are handicapped, it is perfectly alright for young single mothers who raise kids. Raising kids is a contribution to the public



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Imagine you lose your job and then get diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis (one out of 700 adults in Germany suffer from MS). The drugs alone will cost you some 18,000 Euro each year. That's twice as much as you're paying into the system now.

@ noUFO

you see, when you quote, you should read ALL my postings in this thread carefully. So the question is who is bullshitting here.

My point is, that the system is too costly because there are people who abuse the system and that goes at the most to the expense of those who cannot help themselves, like your MS example.

BTW - thanks for taking that example. I am donating several hundred Euros each year to a local MS group in my county. That money goes direct where it is needed, 100%.
powered by Eierlikör
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:29 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
The basics like the necessary insurances are part of the system. I have to pay for my own and I am not taking away anything from other people, OK?

You are (within limits) paying for your own now (and most likely have always done so), but that's because you are - or appear to be - fortunate enough not to suffer from severe or chronic illnesses. If you want to really pay for your own, quit paying into insurances.


PanHAM,
First you called basic insurances, such as health care, "goodies" of which some needed to be axed (replies #8 and #13). Later on, you pretend that with "goodies" you meant to say the abuse of the system while praising the German welfare system as being "the best in the world" and stress that you don't want to change it (reply #30). At the same time, and in stark contrast, you, at the very least, hinted the system was outdated since we have a single market, we would maintain the system at the expense of future generations. Plus, you said want to mind your own business. You evade the question if this means that you don't want to pay into "the world's best system".
At some point you wanted to see some of the Danish restrictions incorporated, not knowing that they already exist. It even escaped you (#30) that unemployed *have* to be proactive in order to avoid deductions.
Now you zero in on abusers of the system, but those are of course low hanging fruit. No one wants people to abuse the welfare system. Every system gets abused. Every country has its fair share of people who shy away from work, even Denmark or the U.S.

[Edited 2009-07-06 07:33:26]
I support the right to arm bears
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:35 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
I am donating several hundred Euros each year to a local MS group in my county.

I applaud you.
I support the right to arm bears
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:07 pm

@ noUFO, first,I don't need your applause.

next, you don't see the red line in my answers. Leave me out, I am self employed but I had private health insurance already when I was an employee. I switched at age 27. On top I have to take care of my own retirement capital. I cannot even take the 20% share an employee gets and book those costs into my accounts as an employers share. Not allowed, the € 8K general allowance must do, it does not even cover health care. I am not complaing, but when you run a company and contribute to the society in many ways, you get screwed in Germany in many ways. Again, I am not complaining-


The system is the best in the world 'cause nobody has a better. That does not mean it is good. It is bad because it encourages abuse. It is bad because it is not run like a business. bevcause it is not run by a business Billions of Euros are wasted each year, on top of the abuse.

We spend 1/3 of our GNP for social matters, no country in the world matches that. We could either get more for the same money or spend less money on the same result. That are facts.

We have to turn this system upside down and tiult it over, and build it new. We cannot afford to run it like it is for another decade. I hope the liberals will be part of the next coalition and straighten some things out. At least Mrs. ulla's bad influence will end i n September and that is good.
powered by Eierlikör
 
rabenschlag
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:08 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
My point is, that the system is too costly because there are people who abuse the system and that goes at the most to the expense of those who cannot help themselves, like your MS example.

Well, abuse is everywhere, especially tax evasion (be it moonlighting or more sophisticated forms). But that is a totally different story. I agree that the abuse should be prevented as much as possible.

But I cannot see that there are any goodies in our welfare system lately. Living on 350 Euros a month is not an easy business. And as NoUfo explained, the conditions to even get that are formally quite strict.

I think it is a terribly myth that the majority of the 4 million people without income (factually there are many more) could make a living under the given market conditions. It is cynical to say that all that they are lacking is initiative and responsibility.

So what about the rest of the world. Is this a largely German concern?
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:48 pm



Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 35):
But I cannot see that there are any goodies in our welfare system lately. Living on 350 Euros a month is not an easy business. And as NoUfo explained, the conditions to even get that are formally quite strict.

again, and I have outlined that before, you have to take the whole costs into account. You have to add the housing, the kids allowance, the npyment into the health and retirement and subsidies for furniture. Then you havew to compare that with someone who works for a living and what he has to pay and what he gets net paid out into his bank account.

A lot of people work and get paid out less than some have without work. see below

.

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 35):
think it is a terribly myth that the majority of the 4 million people without income (factually there are many more) could make a living under the given market conditions. It is cynical to say that all that they are lacking is initiative and responsibility.

It is not a myth, it is a reality. There are third generation welfare families meanwhile, where the kids have not been tought self initiative, literally spoken to get their fingers out of their ***es and work.

it is a matter of mentality, some have three jobs and would never knock at the welfare office door and some others make a comfortable living that way.

The costs for this system are simply too high, even if we find it alright to spend that much, a lot of Euros of the more than 1000 Billion per annum could be spend. more efficient.

ut this is a holy cow in Germany, if you run arguments like mine the immediate reply is that this is not "social". Is it "social" to waste money which could be used better?
powered by Eierlikör
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:45 pm

From Eurostats:

Total expenditure on social protection per head of population:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/gui...ynamic&indicator=tps00100#tps00100

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm...web/_svg/06192615473_graph_tmp.svg


Total expenditure on social protection

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/gui...ynamic&indicator=tps00098#tps00098

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/web/_svg/0619340276_graph_tmp.svg


At-risk-of-poverty rate before social transfers by gender - %

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm...web/_svg/06194116345_graph_tmp.svg


At-risk-of-poverty rate after social transfers by gender - %

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm...web/_svg/06194316527_graph_tmp.svg

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 35):
think it is a terribly myth that the majority of the 4 million people without income (factually there are many more) could make a living under the given market conditions. It is cynical to say that all that they are lacking is initiative and responsibility.

It is not a myth, it is a reality.

Bull. Rabenschlag said majority. The majority is not happily living from welfare. PanHAM, you are not only ill-informed but bitter, insulting and completely unconstructive.
I support the right to arm bears
 
rabenschlag
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

RE: Social Security In Your Country

Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:23 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
next, you don't see the red line in my answers. Leave me out, I am self employed but I had private health insurance already when I was an employee. I switched at age 27. On top I have to take care of my own retirement capital. I cannot even take the 20% share an employee gets and book those costs into my accounts as an employers share. Not allowed, the € 8K general allowance must do, it does not even cover health care. I am not complaing, but when you run a company and contribute to the society in many ways, you get screwed in Germany in many ways. Again, I am not complaining

Well, my impression is that you get screwed not only when you run a small company (I guess your company is small). In recent years, developments have been in favor of the higher echelons of society - I think this is a natural consequence of globalization. The lower echelons suffer more and more (relatively speaking), and that includes small business owners and welfare recipients alike. But I do not think that the recipients of welfare are to blame, they are just a scapegoat.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: scbriml and 15 guests