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stasisLAX
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Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:06 am

"At least 129 people were killed in in rioting by a Muslim ethnic group in China's far west, state media said Monday. The brief report from Xinhua news agency gave no more details.
Protesters, mostly from the Uighur ethnic group, set dozens of cars on fire and attacked buses in several hours of violence in the Xinjiang province city of Urumqi on Sunday."

This happened as an ethnic independence movement. The Uyghers have been severely oppressed by the Chinese government because they are Muslims. Human rights organizations have become concerned that a "war on terror" is being used by the Chinese government as a pretext to repress ethnic Uyghurs. Uyghur exile groups also claim that the Chinese government is suppressing Uyghur culture and religion, and responding to demands for independence with human rights violations. According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Source: Associated Press article via MSNBC website @ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31753771/ns/world_news-asiapacific/
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:41 am

An update from the BBC News:

"Violence in China's restive western region of Xinjiang has left at least 140 people dead and more than 800 injured, state media say.Several hundred people have also been arrested after the violence erupted in the city of Urumqi on Sunday.

Xinhua news agency said police restored order after demonstrators attacked passers-by and set fire to vehicles. The protest was reportedly prompted by a deadly fight between Uighurs and Han Chinese in southern China last month."

Source and video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8135203.stm
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:50 pm

I was just in Urumqi last month and it's so bizarre to see a place that might as well be the Denver of China in the news for such violence.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
sw733
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:45 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
I was just in Urumqi last month and it's so bizarre to see a place that might as well be the Denver of China in the news for such violence.

I am always very intrigued by Xinjiang. I practically minored in Chinese Politics (interesting since my major was Aero Engineering), and I had a particular fondness for Xinjiang and the Uygher people - they fascinated me much more than the Tibetans that everyone else is stuck on.

I think the interesting thing here is the lack of news. Last year, 22 (?) Tibetans were killed in riots and the western world was practically falling over themselves to say how horrible it was...here, 140 and counting Uyghers die and most people (a) have never heard of them, and (b) could give a damn. I am not saying the PRC is at fault, I am not saying the Uyghers are at fault, I am just saying that is what I am interested in...

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
This happened as an ethnic independence movement. The Uyghers have been severely oppressed by the Chinese government because they are Muslims.

Well, it's not quite that simple. Both sides are at fault. There are instances where Uyghers have blown up buses in Beijing. I will never forget one of my professors telling me he was coming out of a subway station in central Beijing about 8 years ago and just as he was coming out, a bus exploded nearby as a result of the Uyghers. Neither side is really innocent...flame me all you want for that statement.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Urumqi now has more Han than Uygher people...so the culture shift is really inevitable. The city is 2.6 million, so lets look at Chicago as a comparison. Imagine only 13% of Chicago being Caucasian, and 75% being, oh, well, Chinese. Would you be surprised if Chinese culture became dominant in Chicago? That's the case we have in Urumqi. In fact, in the Xinjiang Uygher Autonomous Region as a whole, Uyghers only outnumber Han 45% to 41%, so the Uygher culture is likely to not be as strong as it once was.

Also note that in just 5 years this decade, the GDP of Xinjiang doubled, largely due to efforts of the PRC government in their China Western Development program (yes, I pulled that off wikipedia, but it is a fact)


Please don't take this as me being pro-one side and anti-other side...I am simply giving a different view of Xinjiang
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:29 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Last year, 22 (?) Tibetans were killed in riots and the western world was practically falling over themselves to say how horrible it was...here, 140 and counting Uyghers die and most people (a) have never heard of them, and (b) could give a damn

 checkmark   checkmark  I've wondered about that; it was hard not to notice the parallels between Xinjiang and Tibet. I think it all comes down to the fact that the Tibetans have a charismatic leader that the Uighur do not. They also subscribe to a religion that has been coopted by the airheads in hollywood, stoners in Boulder, Vegans in Seattle, etc, as their own, while Islam is still very much "the establishment" and therefore not progressive enough to deserve sympathy.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Also note that in just 5 years this decade, the GDP of Xinjiang doubled, largely due to efforts of the PRC government in their China Western Development program

The same has happened in Tibet from what I understand; as much as everyone wants to think Tibet was some nirvanna or Garden of Eden before the big bad Chinese arrived, it's simply not the case.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
sw733
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:37 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
The same has happened in Tibet from what I understand

Absolutely true. I once had to do a report about who we thought would flourish more from independence - Tibet or Xinjiang. My opinion was, hands down, Xinjiang. Tibet does not really have much to drive their economy...at least, they have less than Xinjiang, which in turn has a lot less than other Han-centered provinces of China (Fujian, Shandong, Hubei, Shaanxi, etc. etc.)

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I think it all comes down to the fact that the Tibetans have a charismatic leader that the Uighur do not

I agree on this as well. Tenzin Gyatso (today's Dalai Lama) is the spiritual leader of Tibet, but the Uygher's do not have this. They just go along as part of their massive worldwide religion and do not stand out like the Tibetans do. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad. What it really means is they do not get the press that the Tibetans do.
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:14 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 5):
They just go along as part of their massive worldwide religion

I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
sw733
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:23 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.

That would make sense. As much as I have studied Xinjiang, I have never been (  Sad ), and all my books simply cannot come close to competing with on-the-ground experience, seeing with your own eyes, so I would take your word on that in a second.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:21 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.

That could be said about a number of more familiar examples. For example, the Mayans who are Catholic... and yet openly practice magic, witchcraft, and other forms of "black magic." The Mexicans who take a spiritual journey aided by the peyote cactus consider themselves to be Catholic.

If there is such a wide variety in such a denomination as Catholocism, then we would expect an equally wide variety in Islam.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:11 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
If there is such a wide variety in such a denomination as Catholocism, then we would expect an equally wide variety in Islam.

Yeah but this isn't your garden variety Muslims-trying-to-establish-a-Caliphate but rather an ethnic group that wants further autonomy from China, who happen to be Muslim. I'm not sure how much of a role Islam plays here but it doesn't seem to me to be the defining factor.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Blackbird
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:41 pm

MaverickM11,

Quote:
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.



Quote:
Yeah but this isn't your garden variety Muslims-trying-to-establish-a-Caliphate but rather an ethnic group that wants further autonomy from China, who happen to be Muslim. I'm not sure how much of a role Islam plays here but it doesn't seem to me to be the defining factor.

Interesting take on the matter -- still, I'm not sure if it's true though


Blackbird

[Edited 2009-07-06 14:43:29]
 
Pellegrine
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:32 pm

Muslim victims hardly make for good news in the west...

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Nothing new here.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Urumqi now has more Han than Uygher people...so the culture shift is really inevitable.

Is this trend of Han migration not due to extensive resettlement programs?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi

How did you travel this sector? Xinjiang UAR seems like an interesting place to visit. I'd like to drive part of the old Silk Road actually.
oh boy!!!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:51 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
The Uyghurs have been severely oppressed by the Chinese government because they are Muslims

-
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:39 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Urumqi now has more Han than Uygher people...so the culture shift is really inevitable. The city is 2.6 million, so lets look at Chicago as a comparison. Imagine only 13% of Chicago being Caucasian, and 75% being, oh, well, Chinese. Would you be surprised if Chinese culture became dominant in Chicago? That's the case we have in Urumqi. In fact, in the Xinjiang Uygher Autonomous Region as a whole, Uyghers only outnumber Han 45% to 41%, so the Uygher culture is likely to not be as strong as it once was.

Yes, it is a problem, and the USA has had to deal with it often. Do you respect the local people's autonomy and culture or do you allow people to move around freely and not allow racial/religious/ethnic identities to dictate what can be done? Of course in the USA the locality is allowed a certain amount of control and is allowed to somewhat guard their history and heritage. And people are allowed to freely move around the country. In China what is happening is dictated by the government and outside forces with little respect for the local wishes. Do you think the Communist Han governor cares about the locals desires?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

Oh, I think their being/identifying as Muslims is as big a factor as anything. The Chinese government is paranoid about any religion, look at what they have done to Falun Gong.
Any identity as anything else is strongly "discouraged" as it is seen as/could become a threat to the Communist leadership's power.

Tugg
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sw733
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:40 pm



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):

Is this trend of Han migration not due to extensive resettlement programs?

It is largely due to Han migration into Xinjiang. In the 1950's, there was a Han population of less than 10% (more like 7 to 8%)...now it's 41% Han in Xinjiang. Much of this started because the Chinese government wanted to make Xinjiang a more developed area of China, and convinced the Han to move there and work, and they stayed, had kids, etc. etc.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

 checkmark 
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:52 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10):
Interesting take on the matter -- still, I'm not sure if it's true though

It's just based on my time there plus reading up on the subject, particularly the Lonely Planet guide, which to my surprise was much less pro-Tibet than I would have guessed.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):
Muslim victims hardly make for good news in the west...

True...but like I said, they seem to be Uighurs first and Muslim by happenstance.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):
How did you travel this sector? Xinjiang UAR seems like an interesting place to visit. I'd like to drive part of the old Silk Road actually.

We took a train from PEK and I can't recommend it enough. We stopped in Xian, Dunhuang, and Tulufan, on our way to Urumqi--all big mileposts on the Silk Road. Chinese drivers are disturbing--take the train!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

 checkmark  There are also the Hui in China, who are Muslim but look more like Han Chinese than the Uighurs who look more like Uzbeks/Kazakhs/etc, and I don't think they're oppressed at all in any way similar to their distance cousins out West.
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:57 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 13):
Oh, I think their being/identifying as Muslims is as big a factor as anything. The Chinese government is paranoid about any religion, look at what they have done to Falun Gong.
Any identity as anything else is strongly "discouraged" as it is seen as/could become a threat to the Communist leadership's power.

-
As you correctly say "a factor". But whenever a factor, I still assume the ethnic aspect to be the really important one. Falun Gong is a religious thing, but the Uyghurs are an ethnic group. You may compare it with Tibet, which however would be wrong in so far as religion in case of Tibet and the Dalai Lama is a very heavy factor. Interesting is to see that some Uyghurs who were in Guantanamo got asylum in the Bahamas (or was it Bermuda ? ) , anyway nicely away from China.
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:24 am

I almost took a trip to Urumqi once, but anyway.... never made it that far west.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
and I don't think they're oppressed at all in any way similar to their distance cousins out West

But, in what way are they oppressed? I am not too clear on it. They live in a country called China. I would be pretty depressed too if my homeland were a Chinese satellite. Maybe their ancestors should have fought harder in 1949. But that's that. China owns their land now...

Same opinion about Tibet... China's borders are well known to everyone. It is sour grapes to wish that Beijing did not control the Chinese territory. They do... It really sucks for some people who wish the land belonged to their tribe still. But it does not... it belongs to Beijing. Xinjiang is supposed to be an autonomous region, but this is not really an active truth yet, from how it appears.
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:11 am



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):
Muslim victims hardly make for good news in the west...

Not only in China but also in Germany Weird Silence (by SOBHI51 Jul 6 2009 in Non Aviation)
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:23 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
Yeah but this isn't your garden variety Muslims-trying-to-establish-a-Caliphate but rather an ethnic group that wants further autonomy from China, who happen to be Muslim. I'm not sure how much of a role Islam plays here but it doesn't seem to me to be the defining factor.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

So I think it is clear that this thread's title "Muslims Riot In China" is not quite right. Replace the word "Muslims" with "Uighurs".
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:21 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 19):
So I think it is clear that this thread's title "Muslims Riot In China" is not quite right. Replace the word "Muslims" with "Uighurs".

 checkmark  It seems almost like saying instead of Puerto Rico wanted to secede from the US that "Catholics Want Independence". True many PR residents are Catholic but it's not quite the whole story.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
Not only in China but also in Germany

The two couldn't be more different. Crazed lunatics are everywhere and don't represent systemic oppression.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
But, in what way are they oppressed? I am not too clear on it. They live in a country called China. I would be pretty depressed too if my homeland were a Chinese satellite. Maybe their ancestors should have fought harder in 1949. But that's that. China owns their land now...

I'm not an expert in the slightest, but I think Tibetans/Uighur are culturally different from the Han Chinese, whereas the Hui are basically Han Chinese that happen to be Muslim. I think they feel oppressed by the Chinese "occupation" of their territory, and the limitation of their rights since the Chinese want to minimize any separatist tendencies.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:25 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
The two couldn't be more different

Was talking about news lack of interest, not similarity.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
Rara
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 21):
Was talking about news lack of interest

Where are you based? Both events were extensively covered in the news around here.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:12 pm



Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
Where are you based?

Actually i am now in the USA for a knee operation.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:15 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 21):
Was talking about news lack of interest, not similarity.

I caught on the news, but honestly it's not a huge event. It's unfortunate to be sure, but a lunatic murdering someone is sadly all too common.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ALexeu
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:51 pm



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):
Is this trend of Han migration not due to extensive resettlement programs?

Similar as what Indonesian gov is doing to West Papua province. They are sending Indonesian Muslims in order to Islamize the mainly Christian population of West Papua (and Maluku Islands).

Quoting SW733 (Reply 7):
That would make sense. As much as I have studied Xinjiang, I have never been ( Sad ), and all my books simply cannot come close to competing with on-the-ground experience, seeing with your own eyes, so I would take your word on that in a second.

Sorry for off/topic, but I am interested in what aviation level did you study that has relations with Xinjiang?
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:10 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 25):

Sorry for off/topic, but I am interested in what aviation level did you study that has relations with Xinjiang?

I have my BS in Aerospace Engineering (working on my MS), but one of my pet peeves is that science/math/engineering majors are forced to study just one thing, and a lot of them are far from well rounded because of it (i.e. a liberal arts major needs so chemistry, some biology, some math, some English, some history, some foreign language, etc.)...they are experts on aerospace engineering, but idiots at everything else.

So I forced myself to study other topics, even though they did not help or enhance my major, such as history, economics, urban planning and, most of all, Chinese politics. It certainly didn't get me out of school any quicker, but it made me a much more well rounded individual with knowledge of a wide variety of topics, whereas I speak with my coworkers and if it's not about stall speeds or rotorcraft stability or flutter envelopes or how to not get laid, they are dumb as a door post. In fact, when I started my Masters degree last year, the dean specifically said that my rounded education got me more scholarship money (sweet!).
 
Flighty
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:25 pm

M11, yes I think we agree that the uighurs are unhappy. But it's not "their" territory anymore. On a map it is clearly under the control of Beijing. From my friends reports, Urumqi is certainly a different culture from Han China. I am simply saying none of that really matters, because these people live under total Chinese rule. Of course the Han will overrun them, I mean, it seems obvious since there are a billion of them and so we should expect enormous numbers in every part of china. I sympathize deeply with losing ones country. But realistically, this is like wishing white people never came to California. It is a valid point of view, just a completely doomed one... IMO. Beijing does not give 2 sh/ts what some tiny minority thinks about things... Nor "should" they, necessarily. For the sake of argument, what about the rights of Han Chinese to settle somewhere in their own country? They are humans with rights too. How can one be an invader when it's inside the borders of your country... By that logic, white people should not hav gone to Texas or Cali.
 
afterburner
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:05 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 25):
Similar as what Indonesian gov is doing to West Papua province. They are sending Indonesian Muslims in order to Islamize the mainly Christian population of West Papua (and Maluku Islands).

This is completely wrong. Where on earth did you get this information? Indonesian government never do such activity. European colonialism did that. In fact there are lots more "christianization" activities currently being done by western missionaries than the spreading the words of Islam done by non-government Islamic organizations.
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:55 am



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
here, 140 and counting Uyghers die

Who said the dead were Uyghers? I thought this whole thing was Uygher violence against Han's.
 
afterburner
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:26 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
For the sake of argument, what about the rights of Han Chinese to settle somewhere in their own country? They are humans with rights too.

It's not a problem when they move there because they want to, not have to (maybe because of a mobilization by the government)
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:34 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 25):
Similar as what Indonesian gov is doing to West Papua province. They are sending Indonesian Muslims in order to Islamize the mainly Christian population of West Papua

-
Nearer by, you can see what Italy has done with the southern half of the South Tirol since taking it over in 1920. France tried it with Alsace, but amazingly, Alsace, in spite of having French as Business- School- Administration-language has continued to use the Alsation (German) dialect in daily life. And "mainland-French" either integrate or after a while get back into "mainland". So that in Alsace, you can meet a Mr Dubois and speak with him in German dialect but talking with Mr Müller in French. I suppose that this what Mrs Merkel means with "peaceful solutions". Which may not really be realistic in the context !

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 28):
This is completely wrong.

-
A friend of me for some years worked in Irian Jaya (West Papua New Guinea) for some years as pilot, and so, I daresay that is not "completely wrong"
-

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 30):
It's not a problem when they move there because they want to, not have to (maybe because of a mobilization by the government)

-
and here again, no Han-Chinese from China "mainland" wishes to go the Sinjiang region, so that the expression "want" is weird. Fact is that incentives are given to people ready to move to areas like Sinjiang and Tibet. I mean if offered excellent jobs and business opportunities, it is obvious what to do.
 
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:02 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
A friend of me for some years worked in Irian Jaya (West Papua New Guinea) for some years as pilot, and so, I daresay that is not "completely wrong"

Maybe I was wrong understanding the word "islamize". If the word "islamize" means converting christians to muslims, then it's wrong. If it means populating those areas with people who happen to be muslims, it is true. The government (in Suharto's era) used to move people from the island of Java which is the most populated island in Indonesia to places like Irian Jaya. These people were indeed mostly muslims. It is called 'transmigration'. The main purpose was to spread the population so that they are not concentrated on the western part of Indonesia (which is more developed than the eastern part). The government gave them houses and lands to be used for farming. The main problem was this program was not voluntarily and not all the people moved had farming skills. Some of them left their given lands and houses and moved back to cities to work as unskilled labors.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:35 am



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 32):
If the word "islamize" means

It means to forcibly change the cultural, social, and ethnic dynamics of an area. And it is not just Islam that does it. Based on what you say here:

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 32):
The main purpose was to spread the population so that they are not concentrated on the western part of Indonesia (which is more developed than the eastern part). The government gave them houses and lands to be used for farming. The main problem was this program was not voluntarily and not all the people moved had farming skills. Some of them left their given lands and houses and moved back to cities to work as unskilled labors.

The government is Islam"izing" that part of the country to the detriment, intentional detriment (as opposed to being intentionally active in protect the original culture but bolstering its economy) of the current make up of the area.

Interesting article on the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8139587.stm
Gives some good insights into the situation even for a "minded" media group.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1444
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:31 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
I sympathize deeply with losing ones country.

What country? Uyghurs never had a country. They had a culture, and it is (unfortunately for them) harder to save their culture because of Han Chinese immigration.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 26):

So I forced myself to study other topics, even though they did not help or enhance my major, such as history, economics, urban planning and, most of all, Chinese politics. It certainly didn't get me out of school any quicker, but it made me a much more well rounded individual with knowledge of a wide variety of topics, whereas I speak with my coworkers and if it's not about stall speeds or rotorcraft stability or flutter envelopes or how to not get laid, they are dumb as a door post. In fact, when I started my Masters degree last year, the dean specifically said that my rounded education got me more scholarship money (sweet!).

I will send you an e-mail!

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 32):
Maybe I was wrong understanding the word "islamize". If the word "islamize" means converting christians to muslims, then it's wrong. If it means populating those areas with people who happen to be muslims, it is true. The government (in Suharto's era) used to move people from the island of Java which is the most populated island in Indonesia to places like Irian Jaya. These people were indeed mostly muslims. It is called 'transmigration'. The main purpose was to spread the population so that they are not concentrated on the western part of Indonesia (which is more developed than the eastern part). The government gave them houses and lands to be used for farming. The main problem was this program was not voluntarily and not all the people moved had farming skills. Some of them left their given lands and houses and moved back to cities to work as unskilled labors.

And they've done that in order to reduce the number of Christian percentage in Irian Jaya and to create a country where there are no chances for brake-away territores.
Remember what has happened in Maluku Islands few years ago. Riots even deadlier then in Xinjiang.
And there are also numerous stories of Muslim missionaries going to remote parts of Papua trying to convert them (while most of the population resist them).
 
flyingwaeldar
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:17 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
For the sake of argument, what about the rights of Han Chinese to settle somewhere in their own country? They are humans with rights too.

If you really think that anybody in China has the right to move and settle where they want, be it Han Chinese or any other group, you don't know too much about that country, do you?

As far as I can understand, the cause for the protest of the Uighurs was the killing of two Uighur workers in Southern China by Han Chinese, because there was a rumour that they had raped a Han girl.

Since the Chinese government is not too happy about protests that could threaten the "social harmony" of the motherland they send in the police and things got ugly.
Then came the usual accusations against evil foreign powers (exil Uighurs in this case) that they somehow started these riots from thousands of miles away and that everything will be done to guarantee the territoral integrity of the motherland.

We now have reports of Han Chinese are getting up in arms and seeking revenge on the Uighurs and the government is sending thousands of more troops and police to the area to try to control the situation.
At the same time communication channels are shut down and the rest of the world is left to guess what's going on.

Just out of interst I've watched the reporting on CCTV9 yesterday and the story they tell is quite different from what you see on other channels.

[Edited 2009-07-08 04:32:47]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:20 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
M11, yes I think we agree that the uighurs are unhappy. But it's not "their" territory anymore. On a map it is clearly under the control of Beijing.

I think you're confusing me with someone who has picked a side in this debate.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 29):
Who said the dead were Uyghers? I thought this whole thing was Uygher violence against Han's.

It sounds like both in this round and in Tibet it was mostly Han victims of the riots.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
afterburner
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:02 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 33):
The government is Islam"izing" that part of the country to the detriment, intentional detriment (as opposed to being intentionally active in protect the original culture but bolstering its economy) of the current make up of the area.

Forcing a religion was not the reason for the migration program. Moreover, now, the involuntary migration program is not conducted anymore. I agree that forcing someone to migrate is against human rights principles. However, if done justly, spreading the population of a country across its territory is good. Some areas really need more people in order to grow and develop. For example, countries like UAE, Qatar, and Bahrain won't grow if they don't allow people from south and south-east Asia to work there. They need the work force. Similar thing happens in West Papua. The natural resources of the are is so abundant. People are needed to acquire them.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 34):
And they've done that in order to reduce the number of Christian percentage in Irian Jaya

And I believe Serbian tried to reduce the number (the real number, not the percentage) of muslims in Bosnia in much more horrible way, did they? (remember Srebrenica?)
And I think it's silly trying to keep the percentages of population of each religion in an area the same. Some people settle and some other left. Some people are born and some other die. And people have the right to choose which religion they want to embrace. If we want to keep the percentages the same, we don't allow people to convert to other religions. And we only accept people with the same religion as the one who left/want to leave.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 34):
And there are also numerous stories of Muslim missionaries going to remote parts of Papua trying to convert them

Force conversion is never allowed. Moreover, missionaries are only allowed to teach about their religious beliefs to people who have not embrace any religion yet.
 
sw733
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:25 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 37):

And I believe Serbian tried to reduce the number (the real number, not the percentage) of muslims in Bosnia in much more horrible way, did they? (remember Srebrenica?)

Oh man I'm backing out of this one, I smell an all out war between you two!

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 34):
I will send you an e-mail!

On a.net? If so, I uh don't know how to check it...woops.
 
afterburner
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:11 pm

Quoting SW733 (Reply 38):
Oh man I'm backing out of this one, I smell an all out war between you two!
A war? Naaah. He wrote what he thinks are right and I wrote what I believe are right. Discussions can heat up sometimes.  

edit: grammar

[Edited 2009-07-08 08:17:50]
 
ALexeu
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:45 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 38):
On a.net? If so, I uh don't know how to check it...woops.

LOL I just noticed that you don't have e-mail  Wow!

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 37):
And I believe Serbian tried to reduce the number (the real number, not the percentage) of muslims in Bosnia in much more horrible way, did they? (remember Srebrenica?)

I don't want to get in another Balkans thread (we had thousands of them...), and yes what happened in Srebrenica is a shame I admit.

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Indonesian guy (Serbia and Indonesia have great relations!), but if I was Papuan I would certainly not like the immigration of Indonesians in my lands. Bare in mind that West Papua was annexed to Indonesia in 1960's (and that didn't have any geographical, anthropological, historical sense).

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 39):
A war? Naaah. He wrote what he thinks are right and I wrote what I believe are right. Discussions can heat up sometimes.

Sure! That's what real discussion is!
 
sw733
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:45 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 39):
A war? Naaah. He wrote what he thinks are right and I wrote what I believe are right. Discussions can heat up sometimes

That's what makes them fun!
 
Flighty
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:07 pm



Quoting Flyingwaeldar (Reply 35):

If you really think that anybody in China has the right to move and settle where they want, be it Han Chinese or any other group, you don't know too much about that country, do you?

It wasn't really my point that China is so free. Instead, it was that their country generally has the right to use its own lands (i.e., the Chinese people as a whole). Anyhow, everybody has the right to move west, or that is my interpretation of the direct government messaging that I have read. Of course I should remain humble about what all I don't know. But the world is watching, so I am just a part of that.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
I think you're confusing me with someone who has picked a side in this debate.

True, it is a bad habit! Sorry M11.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 40):
Bare in mind that West Papua was annexed to Indonesia in 1960's

Right, and _this_ is the problem. These historical events were not appreciated for what they really meant over the long horizon timeframes. I don't know how Indo works, but in China, they are a great power now. Those lands belong to Beijing and no one else... just as Washington controls the far reaches of Alaska, politically.

I agree that the PRC seems to be intentionally snuffing the Uighurs here. But it's hard to word an objection in any way that makes sense in the big picture, considering our own history.
 
B2443
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:21 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 30):
It's not a problem when they move there because they want to, not have to (maybe because of a mobilization by the government)

-
and here again, no Han-Chinese from China "mainland" wishes to go the Sinjiang region, so that the expression "want" is weird. Fact is that incentives are given to people ready to move to areas like Sinjiang and Tibet. I mean if offered excellent jobs and business opportunities, it is obvious what to do.

There are a lot of Han's that WANT to go there for economic reasons. And Let's not forget the fact that Han had been there BEFORE the Uygers immigrated.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 34):
They had a culture, and it is (unfortunately for them) harder to save their culture because of Han Chinese immigration.

Well it was the Uygurs immigrated to Xinjiang in history then Han's going back there. Why should that have been a problem anyways. They have lived with each other for centuries. Why problems now? This is hugely different than the Tibet situation.

Quoting Flyingwaeldar (Reply 35):
If you really think that anybody in China has the right to move and settle where they want, be it Han Chinese or any other group, you don't know too much about that country, do you?

Do you? They may not have the right to move to Hong Kong but they do have the right to move to Xinjiang.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:49 pm



Quoting B2443 (Reply 43):
Well it was the Uygurs immigrated to Xinjiang in history then Han's going back there. Why should that have been a problem anyways. They have lived with each other for centuries

Being there before does not give you the right to come back centuries later and kick whoever there out. Reminds me of another conflict somewhere else in the world, but can not put my finger on it.  scratchchin   stirthepot 
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
ozglobal
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:28 pm

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 28):
Quoting AlexEU (Reply 25):
Similar as what Indonesian gov is doing to West Papua province. They are sending Indonesian Muslims in order to Islamize the mainly Christian population of West Papua (and Maluku Islands).

This is completely wrong. Where on earth did you get this information?

Not from the Indonesian government... Come on; reality check. The Indonesian government of Javanese muslims has been creating Javanese muslim settlements on all key non-muslim islands for years. There are then spates of so called 'sectarian violence' which can readily be translated as massacres of non-muslims (often Christians and animists), with a combination of tolerance and even support by the Javanese-centric Indonesian military. East Timor is the only one to break free of the deadly plot and not before much blood flowd. The PC Western press just make a passing reference to 'sectarian violence' as if they don't know what's going on. Need a few celebrities to take interest before the wolrd will, as in the current Uygur example.

[Edited 2009-07-08 13:30:06]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:53 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 32):
Maybe I was wrong understanding the word "islamize". If the word "islamize" means converting christians to muslims, then it's wrong. If it means populating those areas with people who happen to be muslims, it is true.

-
Yes you were wrong. Wrong in so far as you "fell" into that gap created by the mentioning of religion. Your national government, just as uncountable other such governments tried to get outer provinces of the vast country under control by attracting people from the mainland into the "outer areas".

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 32):
The government (in Suharto's era) used to move people from the island of Java which is the most populated island in Indonesia to places like Irian Jaya.

-
Basically a most understandable idea. And not so much of trouble in case of Sumatra, for example, but a critical thing on Western Papua New Guinea (West Irian).

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 34):
What country? Uyghurs never had a country. They had a culture, and it is (unfortunately for them) harder to save their culture because of Han Chinese immigration.

-
a country ? not really , no. The point apparently is that the Uyghurs to me are ethnically Kazakh and not Chinese . Attention please, my understanding of East Asia has its limits and real East Asia experts may feel tempted to have me tarred and feathered for this. But still, the matter, both in case of the Uyghurs AND the Tibetans is ethnic. That religion plays a role is clear, but what matters is that neither Tibetans nor Uyghurs see themselves as Chinese. In case of the Uyghurs, and this is rather disturbing for those in the central PRC government, the trouble is that they see their "homelands" rather in the Central Asian former USSR republics. And now simply consider what YOU would do if in charge in the central government in Beijing ! I for my part CAN say what I would do. Roughly exactly what they there are doing right now. Establish conditions which make jobs for Han-Chinese in the Sinjiang attractive and then lure young Han-Chinese over to that area !
-
Alternatives ? Yes, if you look to India. Jawaharlal Pandit Nehru, their great leader, in the early 1950ies realized that his country, in spite of being some 140 times larger, could be modelled on the basis of the Swiss Confederation, and started what now is federalist India. I still admire the courage and determination of this man. I in 2002 in Dubai talked with an Indian businessman, who knows Switzerland exceedingly well about this, and we both agreed in our judgment about one of the greatest statesmen the world has ever seen. In the 1000 mio India and in 7 mio Switzerland, minorities are systematically and on purpose over-represented. So that the federal governments in Delhi and Berne always can offer regional minorities the way out, in the clear knowledge that no other countries offer as much political, cultural and language-wise freedoms to minorities as the extremely un-equal brother republics !
-
In China, the situation historically differs. Before Marshal Chiang Kai Shek, China was in reality divided into uncountable local fiefdoms, many important places defacto under Western rule. Whomever rules in Beijing will fear any separatist notions and desires. It is interesting that your longtime ruler Josip Broz Tito and Tshu En Lai, the administrative leader of the PRC so closely co-operated. Mr Broz in his ways tried to emulate Switzerland and India by on purpose giving over-representative powers to minorities, on purpose disadvantaging the majority holders. All nice, but Nehru, from Switzerland, Canada and the USA also took over the basic idea of free media.
-
I two years ago discussed these aspect at a Zurich tram station with a Tibetan who was on his way to a demo. I said "but you realize that the chances of your folks to establish an independent Tibet are not really a hit ?" and he replied "but wouldn't it be a hit if we succeeded in this ? " . We both were in laughs. Possibly silly.., but humour is the way to overcome !
-
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:27 pm

The Associated Press is reporting:

"Thousands of Chinese troops flooded into this city Wednesday to separate feuding ethnic groups after three days of communal violence left 156 people dead, and a senior Communist Party official vowed to execute those guilty of murder in the rioting in western China.

Long convoys of armored cars and green troop trucks with riot police rumbled through Urumqi, a city of 2.3 million people. Other security forces carrying automatic rifles with bayonets formed cordons to defend Muslim neighborhoods from marauding groups of vigilantes with sticks."

Source: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99AF7UG0&show_article=1

Sounds like things are getting worse and even more out of hand.....
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
B2443
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:51 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 44):
Being there before does not give you the right to come back centuries later and kick whoever there out.

I didn't think of those had to be related...If you have to link "right" to history, no one has the right. In case you still believe the Uyguers were being kick-out, you are sadly wrong because they are not. On the other hand, if they resort to terrorist tackics to gain whatever on agenda, they are not getting my sympathy.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Muslims Riot In China

Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:18 am



Quoting B2443 (Reply 48):
On the other hand, if they resort to terrorist tackics to gain whatever on agenda,

They will not resort to terrorist tactics unless they feel threatened.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam

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