User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:13 am

"The current jobs crisis is in part a reflection of the misplaced priorities of previous administrations, which let America's manufacturing sector decline vis-a-vis our services economy. As a result, manufacturing industries now represent just 11.5 percent of GDP; the number of people working in manufacturing accounts for only 8.7 percent of the jobs in the country; and we have run an average trade deficit in manufactured goods of more than $500 billion over the past five years, all of which contributed to the huge buildup of US debt in recent years.

This almost complete neglect of our manufacturing base relative to our service sector represents the height of irresponsibility, because compared with those in manufacturing, service jobs pay below median wages, do very little to help America's balance of trade, have a much smaller multiplier effect on other parts of the economy and mostly just move incomes around the country."

Source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090713/hindery_gerard

I happen to completely agree with this statement. Germany, Japan and South Korea are doing everything they can to preserve their manufacturing base during this "depression". And China, is aggressively accelerating its efforts to grow its manufacturing sector. Outside of the automotive sector, the U.S. government has focused on preserving the financial services industy - Wall Street versus Main Street???
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:28 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
"The current jobs crisis is in part a reflection of the misplaced priorities of previous administrations, which let America's manufacturing sector decline vis-a-vis our services economy.

Which seems to get lost in all of this. This crisis has some if it's roots 30 years back. We've let manufacturing leave our shores. In part to government indifference; part to bad management; and part to high labor costs.

But it all could have been avoided, with some foresight-something American government, business, labor, and people in general are terrible at practicing.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:41 am

Was there this same panic when people started leaving farms for jobs in the factories? What if this isn't necessarily bad, and we are just moving on as a people and an economy? If it costs too much, then it has to go overseas. It is simply next to impossible to make an economic case for keeping all of the manufacturing in the country.

If I were a business owner or executive, am I really supposed to hurt my bottom line, have an unnecessarily high cost for my product, and be less competitive just so I can have the image of being some sort of true American patriot?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:49 am

BMI, but ask yourself this: can a nation, the size of this, with the resources we've had, survive on just a service economy? I don't know if we can. A nation has to make SOMETHING of wealth, I believe, for it to survive economically. If you don't have anything to export, and have to import almost everything, I just can't see it working.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:00 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
BMI, but ask yourself this: can a nation, the size of this, with the resources we've had, survive on just a service economy?

In another time the answer would be a definite no, but the information age changes everything. It would be nice to be able to make everything here, but the fact is that a Mexican doorknob can be every bit as good as an American doorknob but half the price.

America's future economy lies in innovation. We need to always be on top of the next big thing. Manufacturing mundane everyday things is not that important. America needs to worry about inventing and manufacturing high tech items rather than obsessing over the latest closure of a shoe factory.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:25 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
This almost complete neglect of our manufacturing base relative to our service sector represents the height of irresponsibility, because compared with those in manufacturing, service jobs pay below median wages, do very little to help America's balance of trade, have a much smaller multiplier effect on other parts of the economy and mostly just move incomes around the country."

Shoot... I remember learning about how this country ruled everything. Every gadget or gizmo from the hammer to the airplane was made here. I do agree that manufacturing jobs have essentially bottomed out and hurt us, but I also think that the new thing now lies with technology, communication, etc. I agree with BMI in that we have to be intuitive in order to stay afloat. Given our main focuses now in this economy, we need to stay on top of the competition by promoting jobs in the technical fields especially (microchips, robotics, electronics, etc)
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9947
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:05 am

BS. The unemployment rate doesn't double in little over a year because of the reasons stated. Unemployment is rising because our government is now in the hands of a single party with a radical agenda. They have declared that they are going to make huge changes in taxation and government programs of all sorts, but have not been able to state precisely what. Businesses, particularly small businesses are afraid. They have no interest in investing in new equipment or hiring new employees - they are simply concentrating on staying in business and keeping as much as they can in reserve.

This administration has done NOTHING to encourgage businesses to hire people. The only sector which is growing is the unproductive government sector, without whose growth the unemployment rate would be over 10% already.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:11 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Unemployment is rising because our government is now in the hands of a single party with a radical agenda.

BS.
This economic decline started over a year ago when Cheney & Bush were at the helm.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
This administration has done NOTHING to encourgage businesses to hire people.

Dubya, Clinton, Papa Bush & Reagan has done NOTHING to encourage businesses to hire people. Save is your partisan rhetoric.


Down with NAFTA
Stop the out sourcing of America!
Bring back the Concorde
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:12 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Unemployment is rising because our government is now in the hands of a single party with a radical agenda.

 rotfl   rotfl 

Didn't hear you complaining about that between '01 and '06, Charles. Single party, with a radical agenda.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
This administration has done NOTHING to encourgage businesses to hire people.

I thougth the government wasn't supposed to get involved, Charles? Or, do you simply mean that they're not giving big business and the wealthy huge tax breaks like Bush did?

We tried that-look where it got us.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:24 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
This economic decline started over a year ago when Cheney & Bush were at the helm.

Except that this is a (mostly) free market economy where no one is "at the helm." The only people who exercise ultimate control are consumers.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
I thougth the government wasn't supposed to get involved, Charles?

They aren't, and they shouldn't. This is part of the business cycle, and things will turn around. Until then, we should reach for the future rather than try to hold on to the past.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:25 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Except that this is a (mostly) free market economy where no one is "at the helm." The only people who exercise ultimate control are consumers.

Didn't you get the memo?
The Democrats are responsible for everything bad.
LOL!  rotfl 
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:48 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
The Democrats are responsible for everything bad.

Huh? I thought it was all because of those damn Libertarians.  confused   duck 
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:50 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
Which seems to get lost in all of this. This crisis has some if it's roots 30 years back. We've let manufacturing leave our shores. In part to government indifference; part to bad management; and part to high labor costs.

 checkmark  In my opinion, unions have really killed America. They do help the worker, but they also really kill us sometimes when we are in a crunch and they still want more more more.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Unemployment is rising because our government is now in the hands of a single party with a radical agenda. They have declared that they are going to make huge changes in taxation and government programs of all sorts, but have not been able to state precisely what. Businesses, particularly small businesses are afraid. They have no interest in investing in new equipment or hiring new employees - they are simply concentrating on staying in business and keeping as much as they can in reserve.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
The only sector which is growing is the unproductive government sector, without whose growth the unemployment rate would be over 10% already.

The current Administration does want to creat jobs but only really in the government sector. When you creat those jobs, sure its helping someone out BUT, all the rest of the Americans have to pay for that job with taxes! It does no good to creat government jobs that cause higher taxes. It doesnt help anything out. Jobs have to come from the private sector in order for a recession to end.

My state for one really sucks! We now have 52% of our jobs being in the government side with only 48% being from the private sector. Dont you think something in wrong there? And we in California wonder why we are in the crapper? California's jobless rate will continue to rise with no water, more government jobs that cause tax increases (not just income tax but taxing everything under the sun), and causing buisnesses to move out of state. I believe that the Toyota Prius plant has actually moved out of state because now it is cheaper to manufacture them in a different state and have them shipped to California than it is to manufacture them here! Then we have farmers who want to move out of California because Prop 2 passed and they only way to get around making bigger coops for chickens is to move to Nevada. We lose farm jobs and small buisnesses. That is what keeps a state and country afloat.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Stop the out sourcing of America!

Couldnt agree more Superfly!

I think that America will reach well over the 10% mark.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20154
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:00 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
BS. The unemployment rate doesn't double in little over a year because of the reasons stated. Unemployment is rising because our government is now in the hands of a single party with a radical agenda.

Unemployment was on its way to where it was well before this administration.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:22 am

I have to agree that government shares a large part of the blame. Rather than encourage business this country has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. Government lays down regulations that ought to be common sense but then cost businesses money to have to adhere to them to the letter. The EPA demands that any kind of manufacturing industry fill out reams of paperwork and spend countless funds ensuring that the smallest regulation is adhered too. Is it a wonder then that businesses look across our borders and see other lands where government is not have way up their asses and the rest of the way down their throats with regulations and laws that cost money. Money that not only means bigger profits but more R&D for new innovative products.

In addition, Unions, as stated stopped working for the benefit of their members years ago and started looking out for themselves.

Business leaders are to blame for laying down and not speaking out plainly about what excessive taxing and regulation as well as excessive union demands were going to cost the country since there are other places in the world to set up shop.

Lawyers are to blame for bringing countless frivolous lawsuits that make business leaders look for more inviting shores to operate in.

There's plenty of blame to go around.

Until all three can somehow find a way to work together then small businesses are the only businesses that will offer recovery in the jobs market in this country.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:50 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 14):
Business leaders are to blame for laying down and not speaking out plainly about what excessive taxing and regulation as well as excessive union demands were going to cost the country since there are other places in the world to set up shop.

Indeed, corporate leaders started looking at what was good for their firms in the short term (next couple of fiscal quarters) rather than what was good for the long-term health of the company and the employees. Why? Because these leaders/executives pay was tied to company stock options which made the executive focus on what was good for their own stock option plans - it make them extremely greed-driven. I honestly don't blame the executives - I strongly blame the corporation's (weak) board of directors for allowing this type of executive compensation to even EXIST. So much for maximizing stock-holder or employee value.....  vomit 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:13 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 15):
it make them extremely greed-driven.

Like it or not, greed is brought you, and a lot of folks jobs in this country. People like the Vanderbilts, Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford, J.P. Morgan, E. I. du Pont, Franklin Seiberling, just to name a few were some of the greediest people in the world, and because of it hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people were put to work. Greed is not necessarily a bad thing to have.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:30 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
America needs to worry about inventing and manufacturing high tech items

Yeah, that ship has already sailed long ago. Now what?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9947
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:44 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
BS.
This economic decline started over a year ago when Cheney & Bush were at the helm.

Yes it did, but it has gone well beyond that now, and we aren't close to the bottom yet.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Didn't hear you complaining about that between '01 and '06, Charles. Single party, with a radical agenda.

Except they weren't radical in any way.

By the way, have any of you heard Barney Frank lately? He's out there saying that mortgage lending standards should be LOWERED! Is this guy on drugs? Has he paid attention to what relaxed standards caused?

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2009/0...-freddie-to-relax-lending-standar/

Meanwhile, the administration is talking about ANOTHER huge stimulus package, after the first ones have been completely and utterly ineffective, and after lessons learned from overseas have shown that they are counterproductive.

One of the definitions of stupididty is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results. Are they intentionally trying to screw up this country or are they simply morons?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:45 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Didn't hear you complaining about that between '01 and '06, Charles. Single party, with a radical agenda.

Except they weren't radical in any way.

Many people do not see it that way.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9947
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:51 am



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 19):
Many people do not see it that way.

How were they radical?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:53 am



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 19):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Didn't hear you complaining about that between '01 and '06, Charles. Single party, with a radical agenda.

Except they weren't radical in any way.

More like reactionary.
Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9947
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:58 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
More like reactionary.

Explain.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:34 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
and part to high labor costs.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
If it costs too much, then it has to go overseas. It is simply next to impossible to make an economic case for keeping all of the manufacturing in the country.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
If you don't have anything to export, and have to import almost everything, I just can't see it working.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
America's future economy lies in innovation. We need to always be on top of the next big thing. Manufacturing mundane everyday things is not that important. America needs to worry about inventing and manufacturing high tech items rather than obsessing over the latest closure of a shoe factory.

The above all represent a true issue with our current economy, no matter what government is in charge.

The US Dollar is seen as a Gold standard by many countries, and this has to change. For Free Trade, Outsourcing, innovation and true capitalism, there has to be a level playing field. Currently Americans are at a distinct disadvantage in Manufacturing, and certain offshorable job markets. Free trade doesn't work for the US since our products are too expensive to manufacture here, even if invented here.

Until the world's markets including the Yuan, and other currencies are truly basketized, the US will suffer many economic problems.

The Chinese are going to have to continue to buy our debt so the Governement can bail out our citizens that are loosing jobs to chinese citizens.

It is not just a US Government problem. It is a world problem.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Meanwhile, the administration is talking about ANOTHER huge stimulus package, after the first ones have been completely and utterly ineffective, and after lessons learned from overseas have shown that they are counterproductive.

You are so caught up in political finger pointing, that you miss the fact that the issue is Globalization, not national policy. Bush would have had to do the same thing.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:56 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 19):
Many people do not see it that way.

How were they radical?

Warrantless domestic wiretap program, the Terry Schiavo fiasco, for starters....
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:21 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
"The current jobs crisis is in part a reflection of the misplaced priorities of previous administrations, which let America's manufacturing sector decline vis-a-vis our services economy.

Which seems to get lost in all of this. This crisis has some if it's roots 30 years back. We've let manufacturing leave our shores. In part to government indifference; part to bad management; and part to high labor costs.

Actually, it goes back a little more than that, back to the 1960s. That was the last time the US economy was based on a manufacturing level over 50% of all jobs. But, overall, I agree with your opinion. There cannot be a future economy in a services industry centered economy.

There are only three major manufacturing sectors left. Airplanes, autos, and kitchen appliances. We are rapidly loosing the auto sector.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Was there this same panic when people started leaving farms for jobs in the factories? What if this isn't necessarily bad, and we are just moving on as a people and an economy? If it costs too much, then it has to go overseas. It is simply next to impossible to make an economic case for keeping all of the manufacturing in the country.

The US economy has changed several times since we began making money, under President Andrew Jackson's administration in the 1830s (which was also the only time in US history we had no national debt). True, change isn't necessarily bad, if done properly and into a sector that has a future earnings capability. Farming did, manufacturing did, but services and government employment do not. Whether the new "information sector" can eventually make money, and jobs, remains to be scene.

But, we also know that if we return to the manufacturing sector, we will create wealth and jobs, again. It will cost a lot of money, up front, to do that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
America's future economy lies in innovation.

Correct.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Manufacturing mundane everyday things is not that important.

Wrong.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Unemployment is rising because our government is now in the hands of a single party with a radical agenda.

Partially correct. But, my party, the Republicans didn't do much better because they also could not see beyond the next election, like today's Democrats.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
BS.
This economic decline started over a year ago when Cheney & Bush were at the helm.

Actually, no. This current economic downturn has its roots back in the late 1990s, under a Democrat President, and a Republican Congress. This economy downturn started with the housing industry, and rapidly inflating home values that could not be sustained. Back in 1998, Congress decided to have Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac give mortgages on homes some people could not afford. That was a house of cards problem that finally began to collapse in 2007 and continued into 2008, when those foreclosures began, and gasoline prices spiked to over $4 per gallon. The problem then rippled throughout the economy, beginning with Banking, and auto business. We did see clues back in the early 2000s when airline after airline began filing for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection. But we paid no attention to that.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Dubya, Clinton, Papa Bush & Reagan has done NOTHING to encourage businesses to hire people. Save is your partisan rhetoric.

Either did Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Nixon, and Ford.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Or, do you simply mean that they're not giving big business and the wealthy huge tax breaks like Bush did?

We tried that-look where it got us.

Actually, you may be partially correct. Those tax breaks did delay the economic collapse for a few years by keeping people in their jobs, and in some cases creating a few. The other side of that two edged sword cut when some of those new jobs were sent overseas and greed went to excess.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
The Democrats are responsible for everything bad.

Actually, both parties are, The Republicans are just as responsible for this as the democrats are.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
In my opinion, unions have really killed America.

Unions also contributed to the collapse, along with business and government, and other nations attracting jobs away from the US.

Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 15):
it make them extremely greed-driven.

Like it or not, greed is brought you, and a lot of folks jobs in this country. People like the Vanderbilts, Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford, J.P. Morgan, E. I. du Pont, Franklin Seiberling, just to name a few were some of the greediest people in the world, and because of it hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people were put to work. Greed is not necessarily a bad thing to have.

That is also correct. However, greed, like anything else that is taken to excess can get out of control enough to put a negative effect on the economy. For this I site Bernie Madeoff, and a few key Chap. 7 Bankruptcies in the early 2000s, like Enron.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:28 pm



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 24):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 19):
Many people do not see it that way.

How were they radical?

Warrantless domestic wiretap program, the Terry Schiavo fiasco, for starters....

Those are very hot political issues, but have absolutly nothing to do with the economy.

The quickest way the US can get back into the manufacturing sector, and increase our GDP manufacturing sector is in the oil/gas drilling business. This can be done is a few years with some changes in laws written by the Congress.

It will not be a big increase in the GDP percentage, maybe about 5%, or so. But, that will get us above a 15% manufacturing sector of the GDP. That is percentage area we have not been in since the 1980s.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9947
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:56 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 23):
You are so caught up in political finger pointing, that you miss the fact that the issue is Globalization, not national policy. Bush would have had to do the same thing.

If he had, he would have been equally wrong.

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 24):
Warrantless domestic wiretap program,

Which has been proven to be bi-partisan. Also has nothing to do with economics.

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 24):
the Terry Schiavo fiasco, for starters

A media-created circus with nothing to do with economics.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 25):
Partially correct. But, my party, the Republicans didn't do much better because they also could not see beyond the next election, like today's Democrats.

Totally agree.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:17 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 25):
Partially correct. But, my party, the Republicans didn't do much better because they also could not see beyond the next election, like today's Democrats

Correct , we have been betrayed by our government that is why some of us screamed about that bail Bush bail out!!,,, and what do the democrats want ? More government control of the economy . There only solution is too increase the size of the hole in the ship. Another stimulus ??? ... we have gone insane.

Man this sucks , even I am losing my optimism ... and when that happens we are all in trouble. When your average middle class consumer and earner is pulling out ..its a big problem. I know I should be buying assets cheap right now ... but I just cant pull the trigger with the programs I see coming .... Crap and Trade , Uni health care will pull trillions out of the economy and right into the fed for there use . Its a disaster ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:25 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
BMI, but ask yourself this: can a nation, the size of this, with the resources we've had, survive on just a service economy? I don't know if we can.

We can. But society would have to accept the fact that if we really want to go to a service-based economy, we will be tying ourselves to the economies of others, which by definition is a voluntary reduction of some of our national sovereignty. There are economic benefits to that, but there are also drawbacks, so it's a decision that the country is going to have to make.

The EU is taking the lead on that sort of thing, but even they are not finding it to be a smooth road.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:29 pm

The enormous debt level and unfunded liabilities are the more immediate problems for an eventual recovery. Government spending needs to be slashed enormously, both welfare and warfare will have to suffer. I'd say at the very least pull out all troops from Iraq and Europe. Cut off aid to foreign countries and international organizations. Find buyers for infrastructure (particularly things like ports and airports, usually run on a city level)--a challenge in this financial environment, but at least start looking for them.

Also, any welfare left should be funded with individual taxes, not business/employment taxes. It's high time to abolish the latter entirely.

Reducing debt will help the dollar, which will give people an incentive to hold it and save it. Destroying it will mean wiping out those more dependent on the value of the dollar, retirees/baby-boomers with their nest eggs, and they are coming by the boatloads.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisi

Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:56 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Down with NAFTA
Stop the out sourcing of America!

NAFTA isn´t bad by itself, but it needs something like the EU structural funds. A common market will only work if all countries involved will be at more or less the same political and economic level. The problem with NAFTA is that, while the US and Canada are on a level playing field, Mexico is a rather poor developing country. Due to the large number of poor people, they can at any time underbid the US and Canada.
The EU has the structural funds to prevent such steep differences between the EU countries. In medium to long terms all EU countries should reach about the same level to prevent imbalances, which would distort the market.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:34 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
A common market will only work if all countries involved will be at more or less the same political and economic level.

I don't see how that would work. Someone will always want to be king. Even in the EU, there are problems keeping politics and money on the same level throughout Europe. France, for example always seems to want to lead the pack and be in charge.

On this side of the pond, it will be the US who will want to be king. On the other side of the other pond, China wants to be king. In South Asia, it is India. Africa seems to be different, as I don't see any country that wants to lead that continent.

Being the big kid on the block has more advantages than being equal with your neighbors.
 
max550
Posts: 716
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:46 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:15 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
My state for one really sucks! We now have 52% of our jobs being in the government side with only 48% being from the private sector.

Did you just make that number up?

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
I believe that the Toyota Prius plant has actually moved out of state because now it is cheaper to manufacture them in a different state and have them shipped to California than it is to manufacture them here!

Wrong, the Prius has never been made in CA. They were building a plant in Mississippi to make the Prius, but that is suspended indefinitely. Now they are considering moving production to the NUMMI plant in Fremont since GM has ended their partnership with Toyota there.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:36 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):

Everyone wants to be King, it's why competition works. What he is saying is that poorer countries will be able to underbid wealthier ones every time when it comes to labor-intensive industries.

On the other hand, free trade would introduce a common labor market, with common prices for wages. Mexico pushes wages down, although it also pushes cost of living down. Wages in Mexico are pushed up by US and Canadian wages, as well as living costs. Overtime the tendency is to equalize, which you would think it's something the unionized left would love because they push it all the time, but don't talk about "sharing" and "wealth redistribution" when it comes to their wages and starving people just over an imaginary line. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
7324ever
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 10:46 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:52 pm

The economy is like a rollercoaster, It goes up and down, does flips, and alternates. Yes it will get better it always does look it like this there was the financial crisis of 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, now 2000. It always changes and will improve it is a 10 year change were the market has its highs and lows. In time it will get better.
Anything the US and EU build the Russians do it better! i.e. TU-144 vs Concorde and TU-154 vs The 727...
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:36 pm



Quoting 7324ever (Reply 35):
Yes it will get better it always does look it like this there was the financial crisis of 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, now 2000.

Well, sort of, but not quite. For example the Depression actually began with the stock market collapse on Oct. 1929. President F.D. Roosevelt, which some credit with leading us out of the depression, actually did not. He did some of the things Obama is doing today, government works programs. In FDR's day, it was the TVA, Hoover dam, and other public works programs. None of these put to many people back to work, some of that was FDR's fault, some was because of the "dust bowl" over the US mid-west farmlands from 1932 to 1938.

It was not until FDR began the build up to WWII in 1936 did the economy start to swing around. In 1936, the US Army Big Bomber (B-17) program began and the USN began a huge warship building program, starting with the two North Carolina class Battleships (BB). The ecomony almost returned to normal by late 1938 when warship building accelerated with the building of four South Dakota class BBs.

Then, in late 1940 and early 1941 came the military contracts from the British, which sustained us until we entered the war in December 1941.

So, the 1929 crash took a full decade to recover from. Had WWII not come along, recovery from 1929 could have taken until the 1950s.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:46 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 36):
It was not until FDR began the build up to WWII in 1936 did the economy start to swing around.

Exactly. I am writing this just after looking at a Time magazine with the headline "What Barack Obama Can Learn from FDR." Hate to burst their bubble, but even the most incompetant of politicians can make an economy go into a boom when they can buy and sell that much war material.

If you really want the economy to turn around, then start a war.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:56 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
If you really want the economy to turn around, then start a war.

Right now, I don't have enough confidence for up to get into war #3 right now.

What Obama should do is start repairing our 40-50 year old infastructure. Bridges, dikes, tunnels, electric grid, water systems, highways, dams, etc. all are in need or repair or replacement.

The "stimulus package" already passed, will not kick in until near next years elections. We need to begin all of this NOW.

The problem there is, to do that he needs to abandon all of his social programs, many social programs currently on the books, and Obama-care.

No current politician has the guts to make the right decision here.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:00 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
Right now, I don't have enough confidence for up to get into war #3 right now.

I wouldn't want to start a war for the sake of the economy either, but if it is that big of a hangup, that is the sure fire way to boost the economy.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
What Obama should do is start repairing our 40-50 year old infastructure. Bridges, dikes, tunnels, electric grid, water systems, highways, dams, etc. all are in need or repair or replacement.

The "stimulus package" already passed, will not kick in until near next years elections. We need to begin all of this NOW.

The money is already spent, so there is no use whining about it. But it needs to be spent on tangible infrastructure where we may realize an actual return on investment, rather than paying for grandma's new wheelchair.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:06 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
I don't see how that would work. Someone will always want to be king. Even in the EU, there are problems keeping politics and money on the same level throughout Europe. France, for example always seems to want to lead the pack and be in charge.

On this side of the pond, it will be the US who will want to be king. On the other side of the other pond, China wants to be king. In South Asia, it is India. Africa seems to be different, as I don't see any country that wants to lead that continent.

Being the big kid on the block has more advantages than being equal with your neighbors.

It does indeed. And wanting to be king is good. But things work out a lot more smoothly if one is fighting to be king among relative equals, because it enables competition. If you have a manufacturing plant to set up, and your choice is between France and Germany, you have to think about it, because they both offer a workforce with similar skills, and similar cost levels. But if your choice is between Mexico and the US, it's really no choice at all - you go for Mexico, because the US could never hope to compete with the sort of low costs that Mexico could offer, even if you do have to do some additional training to bring the skill levels of the Mexican workers up.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
7324ever
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 10:46 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 36):
Well, sort of, but not quite. For example the Depression actually began with the stock market collapse on Oct. 1929. President F.D. Roosevelt, which some credit with leading us out of the depression, actually did not. He did some of the things Obama is doing today, government works programs. In FDR's day, it was the TVA, Hoover dam, and other public works programs. None of these put to many people back to work, some of that was FDR's fault, some was because of the "dust bowl" over the US mid-west farmlands from 1932 to 1938.

It was not until FDR began the build up to WWII in 1936 did the economy start to swing around. In 1936, the US Army Big Bomber (B-17) program began and the USN began a huge warship building program, starting with the two North Carolina class Battleships (BB). The ecomony almost returned to normal by late 1938 when warship building accelerated with the building of four South Dakota class BBs.

Then, in late 1940 and early 1941 came the military contracts from the British, which sustained us until we entered the war in December 1941.

So, the 1929 crash took a full decade to recover from. Had WWII not come along, recovery from 1929 could have taken until the 1950s.

I know. I was speaking VERY generally but thanks for the specification. It just looks that roughly every 10 years there is a cycle of downs and highs in real estate and stocks. Its caused by some external factor be it war or internal like repealing or adding in government.
Anything the US and EU build the Russians do it better! i.e. TU-144 vs Concorde and TU-154 vs The 727...
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:29 am



Quoting Max550 (Reply 33):
Did you just make that number up?

No I did not make up that number. It was said at the town hall meeting I attended with 2 California Senators and 3 Representatives in the California House (Republicans and Democrats).

Quoting Max550 (Reply 33):
Wrong

Well then it must have been wanting to move here but found it to be cheaper to move it to the south and drive them in here.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:19 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Huh? I thought it was all because of those damn Libertarians

Ouch, long-time Libertarian here!!! Am I bleeding???   

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
The EU has the structural funds to prevent such steep differences between the EU countries. In medium to long terms all EU countries should reach about the same level to prevent imbalances, which would distort the market.

But, does this relative equality mean that some developed EU nations will now have a lower standard of living while other (poorer) nations get all the benefits of a higher living standard? For instance, does it mean that there will be fewer higher paid skilled French workers because their skilled jobs have been moved to Poland or Slovakia, which brings up the standard of living in those nations at the cost of the workers/residents of the fully-developed industrial nations (like France) in the EU?

This is what the U.S. skilled worker is going through, losing their incomes when their employers offshore their (former) jobs to China, Mexico, and so on. I have family members in Pennsylvania that worked in the ship-building business in Philadelphia for many years, and their jobs have all dried up because their employers moved their work to Asian nations. These nations have lower labor costs, virtually no environmental standards, easily bribed government officials, and so on.

These family members now work at Walmart, as minimum-wage teachers aides, or in lower payer service sector jobs. Some of these people spent 15 years in the US Navy learning their trade, which is the only tangible trade they have. There are no easy answers here, and I personally find the political backbiting very distasteful and frankly counterproductive.   

[Edited 2009-07-07 18:50:15]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:30 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
but the fact is that a Mexican doorknob can be every bit as good as an American doorknob but half the price.

No it cant. See the China/Lead paint and toys incident. Or in my case, any mexican built VW that has more service and reliability issues than a german built one. All mexican built things do is put more cheap crap in walmart.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:44 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 44):
No it cant. See the China/Lead paint and toys incident. Or in my case, any mexican built VW that has more service and reliability issues than a german built one. All mexican built things do is put more cheap crap in walmart.

Then we have incentive to buy American products, and executives have reason to keep production here. But the fact that things are still outsourced is a pretty clear indication that we cannot justify whatever quality advantage American products have against the increased price. Either the quality gap must widen, or the cost of American products must go down.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:48 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 44):
Or in my case, any mexican built VW that has more service and reliability issues than a german built one

Ding ding ding - we have a winner!!! (Former owner of a POS Jetta built in Mexico)

[Edited 2009-07-07 18:48:44]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:46 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
Which seems to get lost in all of this. This crisis has some if it's roots 30 years back. We've let manufacturing leave our shores. In part to government indifference; part to bad management; and part to high labor costs.

In my opinion, unions have really killed America. They do help the worker, but they also really kill us sometimes when we are in a crunch and they still want more more more.

I agree with this 100 percent. Sometimes, the unions are good to have, but when they hit the picket lines asking for a $60,000 salary to operate a forklift or to push a button that turns on or off a maching, something is amiss.

Granted, I am sure that some folks in the construction field do get paid very high salaries, but that's likely because they are contract workers. They work for a finite period of time and make enough money for living expenses as well as other costs such as healthcare.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 25):
Back in 1998, Congress decided to have Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac give mortgages on homes some people could not afford. That was a house of cards problem that finally began to collapse in 2007 and continued into 2008, when those foreclosures began, and gasoline prices spiked to over $4 per gallon. The problem then rippled throughout the economy, beginning with Banking, and auto business.

Ah-HAH! I tried posting something like this in the democratic party post and I came close to having an angry mob after me! Well, I stand firmly by that then!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 25):
We did see clues back in the early 2000s when airline after airline began filing for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection. But we paid no attention to that.

Probably because we linked those events with post-9-11 aftermath...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
7324ever
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 10:46 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:44 am



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 47):

I agree with this 100 percent. Sometimes, the unions are good to have, but when they hit the picket lines asking for a $60,000 salary to operate a forklift or to push a button that turns on or off a maching, something is amiss.

Granted, I am sure that some folks in the construction field do get paid very high salaries, but that's likely because they are contract workers. They work for a finite period of time and make enough money for living expenses as well as other costs such as healthcare.

Thank you! Very very true.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 47):

Probably because we linked those events with post-9-11 aftermath...

Alot of things have been linked to 9-11 but i never saw why... Everything happens in cycles

I say stop paying the CEOs millions of dollars and put the money back in to employ more workers.
Anything the US and EU build the Russians do it better! i.e. TU-144 vs Concorde and TU-154 vs The 727...
 
BMI727
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Will America Suffer A "Jobless" Recovery Crisis?

Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:50 am



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 47):
I agree with this 100 percent. Sometimes, the unions are good to have, but when they hit the picket lines asking for a $60,000 salary to operate a forklift or to push a button that turns on or off a maching, something is amiss.

You have a good point. Unions served a purpose keeping companies from making workers do 12 hour shifts 6 days a week in a dangerous environment. Now it seems that they mostly extort excessive wages and benefits for blue collar work. They have priced themselves right out of the market, and many now have no job and no benefits.

Quoting 7324ever (Reply 48):
I say stop paying the CEOs millions of dollars and put the money back in to employ more workers.

Fine, but you must live with the consequences. You can get a CEO for $50k a year, but he's probably going to be a lot more like Michael Scott than Donald Trump.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 43):
Ouch, long-time Libertarian here!!! Am I bleeding???

Come to think of it, Libertarians might be the only group NOT to blame for the recession, seeing as so few of them actually get elected.  Big grin  duck 
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ktrick45, luisjumper, Revelation, ual777, WarRI1, wingman and 27 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos