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stasisLAX
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:44 pm

The New York Times is reporting today that "the Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday."

The question of how completely the C.I.A. informed Congress about sensitive programs has been hotly disputed by Democrats and Republicans since May, when Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the agency of failing to reveal in 2002 that it was waterboarding a terrorism suspect, a claim CIA Director Leon Panetta rejected. The law requires the president to make sure the intelligence committees “are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity.”

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/politics/12intel.html?_r=1&hp

Yesterday, CIA Director Panetta killed this secret program.

Source: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24775.html

Cheney ordered the CIA to break the law, and he should face the legal consequences. How much did George W. know about this or was Cheney being "a loose cannon" once again???  duck   devil 
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Flighty
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:59 pm

The important thing is that law enforcement officials should not be shy about bringing common thugs like Mr. Cheney to justice. Either it is okay to break all laws an kill people at will, or it is not okay. Last I checked this was all still illegal.
 
PacNWjet
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:25 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
The important thing is that law enforcement officials should not be shy about bringing common thugs like Mr. Cheney to justice.

Why should law enforcement officials bring charges against Cheney? You have already pronounced him guilty.

I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not. I do know that throughout his career in politics, including his years in Congress as a Representative from Wyoming, Dick Cheney asserted that the Constitution grants the executive branch of the U.S. government wider powers than many other politicians and scholars agree. This is a matter of ongoing debate among politicians and constitutional scholars. The current U.S. President, Barack Obama, has appointed a large number of "czars" that have not had to be confirmed by the Senate. Many constitutional scholars would say that this is a violation of constitutional requirements for congressional advice and consent. Others would disagree. These are matters to be adjudicated with sober debate and, if need be, investigation or prosecution. Tossing around terms like "thug" doesn't really elevate the debate much.
 
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STT757
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:34 pm

The craziest thing about all this is that Bush left office without pardoning anyone involved in these allegations of torture (Gonzalez, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc..), Dick couldn't have been too happy about that.
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Dreadnought
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:02 pm



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
Why should law enforcement officials bring charges against Cheney? You have already pronounced him guilty.

Could have been a secret program to select the brand of coffee served at the CIA. Without knowing what this "program" was, you can't make such judgements.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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falstaff
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:23 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Cheney ordered the CIA to break the law, and he should face the legal consequences. How much did George W. know

Your guy won the election get over it. If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
common thugs like Mr. Cheney to justice

Mr. Cheney is not a common thug. He is nothing like the corner boys in Detroit.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
The craziest thing about all this is that Bush left office without pardoning anyone involved in these allegations

You can't pardon people before they are convicted of a crime.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Either it is okay to break all laws an kill people at will

Who did he kill? Some worthless terrorists? People die in wars that is what happens. If the world was made up of peace loving liberals that would be great, but it isn't, strength wins. There are many people who will use deadly force to destroy peace loving fools. If it wasn't for strength the Nazis would have taken over all of Europe. Peace and love don't work in a world full of tyrants. We need people like GWB and Dick Cheney to stand up for us and not sell out just so we can be popular in the eyes of popular culture and a bunch of wimpy latte sipping 20 somethings.

The United States is at war with radical islamic facists. You people need to realize that. They don't wear a uniform and they don't represent a government. The will stop at nothing to kill the US and UK and we need to be just as brutal as they are. These people hate us and will stop at nothing to kill us. Playing nice isn't going to stop Islamofacisim. They hated us long before GWB and will hate us long after he is dead and gone.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
The New York Times is reporting

The NYT is just the mouthpiece for New York liberals who think they know better than everyone else.
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Mir
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:37 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

So your view is that people who break laws should be exempt from being held responsible just because they were in public office at the time?

I'm not saying that Cheney is guilty of anything, but if he is, why shouldn't he have to face up to his actions?

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
The will stop at nothing to kill the US and UK and we need to be just as brutal as they are.

No, we don't.

-Mir
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BMI727
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:40 pm



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not.

Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists. I fully recongnize that the government takes steps to protect me that I will never know about and I have no problem with it. The government has and keeps secrets - lots of them, and we are better off not knowing.

And Congress is a big and careless place. It would have been far too easy for something to have been leaked.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
Who did he kill? Some worthless terrorists? People die in wars that is what happens.

Some people love to shock the American people with the fact that fighting terrorists is a dirty business.
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STT757
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:48 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):

You can't pardon people before they are convicted of a crime.

Yes you can, Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon without Nixon being convicted of anything.

"On September 8, 1974, Ford gave Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes he may have committed against the United States while President"

Note the "May Have".
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BMI727
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:54 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
No, we don't.

We shouldn't be brutal, and there are some lines we shouldn't cross. But war is dirty and some people fail to recognize that.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DocLightning
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:04 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):

Your guy won the election get over it. If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

Depends on if he breaks a law. Looks like Cheney may have. I don't care what political party a politician is from. Breaking the law should not go unanswered. The only way to know is to have a trial. Which, ironically, is exactly what Cheney and Bush were trying to prevent their captives from having.
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Mir
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:12 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not.

Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists.

We have laws, and they need to be followed.

Quite a simple concept, really.

-Mir
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Falcon84
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:19 am



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not.

Thug? I'm not sure. Criminal? Of that, in my opinion, I have no doubt.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Could have been a secret program to select the brand of coffee served at the CIA. Without knowing what this "program" was, you can't make such judgements.

And the apologists have arrived.....
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mt99
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:19 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists. I fully recongnize that the government takes steps to protect me that I will never know about and I have no problem with it.

Again, Republicans are all about keeping the Government out of their lives, but they happily allow it to listen in on the call to their mothers and allow it to dictate what goes on in their bedrooms.

Amazing huh?
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:32 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Cheney ordered the CIA to break the law, and he should face the legal consequences. How much did George W. know about this or was Cheney being "a loose cannon" once again???      

Yes!!!! Maybe DICK.. will get thrown in prison! Oh I hate that man.

The Republican party just keeps taking hit after hit, turning even the most loyal conservatives into Dems.  Smile
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stasisLAX
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:43 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
The NYT is just the mouthpiece for New York liberals who think they know better than everyone else.

And Fox News presents a "fair and balanced" view of political news. Pleeeeessssseeee, stick to the topic.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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stasisLAX
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:48 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Depends on if he breaks a law. Looks like Cheney may have. I don't care what political party a politician is from. Breaking the law should not go unanswered. The only way to know is to have a trial. Which, ironically, is exactly what Cheney and Bush were trying to prevent their captives from having.

Exactly correct. In the U.S., no one is above the law. Otherwise, we might as well live in Afghanistan under the rule of the Taliban.  yes 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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falstaff
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:50 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
happily allow it to listen in on the call to their mothers

When those calls turn into something more sinister you would be happy they listened in. A terrorist doesn't spend all of his time on the phone talking about bombs and such. I am sure they call their mothers too

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
dictate what goes on in their bedrooms.

A real Republican wouldn't care because they don't like big government. Only your religious right republican cares about what you do in your bedroom.

Quoting AustinAirport (Reply 14):
Oh I hate that man.


I know how all you liberals felt; I hate our president. He will ruin our once fine country. You all thought the same thing about the last president....
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DocLightning
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:28 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):

Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists.

Perhaps he was. But our laws are who and what we are. We are taught that we are a country of law and order, where people are free to choose their elected representatives, and where people have certain rights.

When the government does something that steps outside those laws, it is dangerous because it means that we are giving up those values. America doesn't kill civilians. America gives everyone a fair trial. America doesn't torture. Except we broke all three principles.

And that is far worse than allowing a terrorist attack, because that invalidates who and what we are. And it makes us no better than the terrorists.
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yfbflyer
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:32 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
The craziest thing about all this is that Bush left office without pardoning anyone involved in these allegations of torture

I thought Bush did a bunch of pre-emptive pardons about 6 months before the end of his term. If i wasn't so lazy I would look up the thread about it here.
 
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DocLightning
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:41 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 17):

I know how all you liberals felt; I hate our president. He will ruin our once fine country. You all thought the same thing about the last president....

We were right. He ruined our fine country.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Falcon84
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:11 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Dick couldn't have been too happy about that.

Dick wasn't happy that Scooter Libby wasn't pardoned for something that would be relatively minor compared to this. So you're probably right. "Scared" is probably more of what he's feeling.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
Your guy won the election get over it.

Yes, who cares if laws were broken. Forget about it! Don't think twice about it.

Sorry, but if this guy broke the law, with something this major, he should go to trial, and, if found guilty, put in prison.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

Oh, you mean like you TRIED to do with the LAST Democratic president.

Fallstaff, threats like this are repugnant. It shows just how mean-spirited and vindictive the right really is. We went through this garbage for 8 1/2 years with Bill Clinton, and you want it to happen AGAIN. And, pray tell me, what would the President now go on trial for? For not governing the way you want? Because you don't like his Birth Certificate?

Grow up, and GET OVER IT yourself. If your heroes committed a crime, they should be tried for it. I think Dick Cheney broke a lot of laws while VPOTUS, and I hope he's taken to task for every one of them.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
You can't pardon people before they are convicted of a crime.

Gerald Ford ring a bell? Bone up on your history before making such pronouncements.
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PacNWjet
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:35 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We have laws, and they need to be followed.

Which is why I said in my previous post:

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
These are matters to be adjudicated with sober debate and, if need be, investigation or prosecution.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Thug? I'm not sure. Criminal? Of that, in my opinion, I have no doubt.

Uh huh. So if and when Mr. Cheney is prosecuted you can recuse yourself from the jury since apparently you have already come to a conclusion without a full consideration of the evidence.
 
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:37 am



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 22):
Uh huh. So if and when Mr. Cheney is prosecuted you can recuse yourself from the jury since apparently you have already come to a conclusion without a full consideration of the evidence.

Well, since it would probably be tried somewhere relatively far from where I live, I'm not too concerned.  Yeah sure

Pretty weak comeback, dude.
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falstaff
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:15 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
It shows just how mean-spirited and vindictive the right really is

Yeah, those lefties are all about love and peace  Yeah sure They are just as mean spirited.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
And, pray tell me, what would the President now go on trial for?

beats me, he has been in office for a very short amount of time. I am sure he'll do something wrong.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Because you don't like his Birth Certificate?

I don't know what that even says nobody has seen it. If he was born in the United States that is just fine. If it says that he wasn't he should be thrown out of office, but I am sure you lefties will look the other way when the consitution is violated and it keeps your man in office. You all claim to be so much better than the right and so much more enlightened, but in reality the left will do anything to be in power, exeactly like the right. The far left and the far right have a lot in common.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Gerald Ford ring a bell? Bone up on your history before making such pronouncements.

It doesn't mean anything because Nixon was never charged with anything. A pardon really only means something after a conviction. Having a conviction removed from one's record only really matters if you actually have a conviction.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
We were right. He ruined our fine country.

My life was going along just fine under GWB.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Oh, you mean like you TRIED to do with the LAST Democratic president.

That was a giant waste of time and money. I guess the fact that Bill Clinton lied under oath is ok as long as he was a democrat? I can't complain too much. I voted for Bill Clinton, back when I was young and confused about the realities of the world.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Well, since it would probably be tried somewhere relatively far from where I live, I'm not too concerned

It would be Federal and could take place anywhere.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Breaking the law should not go unanswered.



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We have laws, and they need to be followed.

All these law and order people around here scare me. If a law isn't right it shouldn't be followed. I guess all you law and order liberals would be just fine with cops enforcing the segation laws of the south in the 1960s? The law was the law right? I guess we should have prosecuted all those people because they broke the law? How about all the fuss trying to overturn California's gay marraige ban? The law is the law and it should be followed all the time? Hey its the law, so you better follow it. If you don't like the law you have to fight to get it changed and sometimes you have to break the law to do the right thing. Fighting terrorists is the right thing and it is in the best interest of all citizens of this country.

All the killing in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was done within the laws of those countries at that time. Just because it is the law doesn't make it right.
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Falcon84
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:21 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):
Yeah, those lefties are all about love and peace They are just as mean spirited.

Right. That's why they spent 8 1/2 years trying to find something to oust a preisdent over. Oh? That happened when a DEMOCRAT was in office. Oh, my bad.  Yeah sure

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):
I am sure he'll do something wrong.

And if he doesn't, I'm sure the GOP members in Congress can make things up, like they did between 1992 and 2000. The truth won't stop them.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):
I don't know what that even says nobody has seen it.

Actually, they have. And it's legit. Thanks for giving me the opening.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):
I guess the fact that Bill Clinton lied under oath is ok as long as he was a democrat?

Not at all. I think he was stupid for what he did. But in my mind-and in the minds of most of your countrymen, it wasn't worth an Impeachment. That part was simply vindictive politics.
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austinairport
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:27 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 17):

I know how all you liberals felt; I hate our president. He will ruin our once fine country. You all thought the same thing about the last president....

.. He did ruin the country. LOL.
Economy in shambles, retarted Foreign policy, National Security Act, I mean if this is your idea of a "fine country" well, this is a damn fine country.
LOL.
Granted that I cant pin everything I'd like to on Bush, But he and his administration did little, to nothing to help the economy, they Passed the National Security act, and if I recall that was a presidential order, and now the rest of the world hates America. Way to go George.  Smile
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falstaff
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:29 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
it wasn't worth an Impeachment.

It wasn't and it wasn't worth the time and money it took to do it. Nothing came out of it anyway. The exact same thing will happen if anyone tries to go after Bush or Cheney. It will be a huge waste of money. The leaders of the house and senate know it and I doubt we will see anything happen.
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DocLightning
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:29 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):

All these law and order people around here scare me.

That's a scary statement.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):

All the killing in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was done within the laws of those countries at that time. Just because it is the law doesn't make it right.

Do me a favor. My great aunt escaped from Treblinka. Don't ever preach Nazi Germa
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falstaff
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:35 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
Do me a favor. My great aunt escaped from Treblinka. Don't ever preach Nazi Germa

I am not saying anything positive about Nazis, I am just saying that what they did was legal in their country at the time. I was using that to point out that just because something is legal does not make it right. A lot of Nazis tried to hide behind the law for what they did, but the world knew better and found them guilty of crimes against humanity.
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PacNWjet
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:44 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 22):
Uh huh. So if and when Mr. Cheney is prosecuted you can recuse yourself from the jury since apparently you have already come to a conclusion without a full consideration of the evidence.

Well, since it would probably be tried somewhere relatively far from where I live, I'm not too concerned. Yeah sure. Pretty weak comeback, dude.

O.K., try this one, dude: You have already decided that the former vice president is guilty, so why entertain arguments to the contrary? What is the point of engaging people in this forum? Is your intent to convince people that, on the basis of the evidence, a jury would likely convict Mr. Cheney of some crime? If so, perhaps you can come up with something better than

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Thug? I'm not sure. Criminal? Of that, in my opinion, I have no doubt.

How about you present some of that evidence since, absent that evidence, in the American system of jurisprudence individuals are entitled to the presumption of innocence and, in a court of law, must be proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. Even without evidence presented in a court of law you have no doubt which says more about you than it does about the evidence for or against Mr. Cheney's innocence or guilt.
 
Falcon84
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:48 am



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 30):
You have already decided that the former vice president is guilty, so why entertain arguments to the contrary?

IF their credible arguments, I will. But ask yourself this: why did he spend so much time trying to hide most of what he did behind a wall of secrecy? It can't be all because of "national security" because a lot of it was on the domectic front.

A man who hides things like that, imho, is hiding them for a reason-because he doesn't want people to find out what he's doing.
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PacNWjet
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:58 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
IF their credible arguments, I will. But ask yourself this: why did he spend so much time trying to hide most of what he did behind a wall of secrecy? It can't be all because of "national security" because a lot of it was on the domectic front.

A man who hides things like that, imho, is hiding them for a reason-because he doesn't want people to find out what he's doing.

Maybe he agreed with with some congressional Democrats on the reading of the law in question (the National Security Act). Portions of The New York Times article regarding the case are quite telling:

(Fair use quotation): The law requires the president to make sure the intelligence committees “are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity.” But the language of the statute, the amended National Security Act of 1947, leaves some leeway for judgment, saying such briefings should be done “to the extent consistent with due regard for the protection from unauthorized disclosure of classified information relating to sensitive intelligence sources and methods or other exceptionally sensitive matters.”

In addition, for covert action programs, a particularly secret category in which the role of the United States is hidden, the law says that briefings can be limited to the so-called Gang of Eight, consisting of the Republican and Democratic leaders of both houses of Congress and of their intelligence committees.

Members of Congress have differed on the significance of the program, whose details remained secret and which even some Democrats have said was properly classified. Most of those interviewed, however, have said that it was an important activity that should have been disclosed to the intelligence committees.


Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/politics/12intel.html?_r=1&hp

It seems like there is enough wiggle room in the National Security Act to create sufficient reasonable doubt among some jurors. So, let there be a trial, but given the leeway in the wording of the statute I would bet the verdict would come back not guilty.
 
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:03 am

Is this all the Times had to run with today, something that came out and was settled 4 years ago.

Or are they just trying to deflect attention to the 13 percent drop in the messiah Obama's approval ratings.

I suggest the latter.

You all need to realize that the Times doesn't report the news, they attempt to shape it to fit an agenda.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Falcon84
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:05 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 33):
You all need to realize that the Times doesn't report the news, they attempt to shape it to fit an agenda.

Stop confusing FOX News with other news sources, L-188!  Yeah sure
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BMI727
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:06 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
Again, Republicans are all about keeping the Government out of their lives, but they happily allow it to listen in on the call to their mothers and allow it to dictate what goes on in their bedrooms.

Driving a car that gets less than 35 mpg is not going to blow me up in the subway.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Perhaps he was. But our laws are who and what we are.

We aren't talking about throwing the whole book away. But if we need to bend the rules once in a while to protect our nation, so be it.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):
Yeah, those lefties are all about love and peace

Too bad the terrorists aren't.
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L-188
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:12 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 33):
You all need to realize that the Times doesn't report the news, they attempt to shape it to fit an agenda.

Stop confusing FOX News with other news sources, L-188!

Give me a break, Even Stanley Kubrik was making fun of them in 1963, remember this line from "Dr. Strangelove"? The russian ambassador was in the war room, "Our source was the New York Times"
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Falcon84
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:18 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 36):
Give me a break, Even Stanley Kubrik was making fun of them in 1963

Going back 46 YEARS to make a point?

Good God, but you need some help!  Smile

By the way, L-188, did you check out the link to factcheck.org I posted? Maybe it'll get you to stop some other posts somewhere else about the "illegally-seated president", and all the nonsense that goes with it.
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Dreadnought
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:18 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
IF their credible arguments, I will. But ask yourself this: why did he spend so much time trying to hide most of what he did behind a wall of secrecy? It can't be all because of "national security" because a lot of it was on the domectic front.

The article did make clear that whatever this program was, it was not a domestic operation.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
A man who hides things like that, imho, is hiding them for a reason-because he doesn't want people to find out what he's doing.

Perhaps he was hiding them because you had organizations like the New York Times that didn't give a damn about the security of our troops. The current editorial board of the NYT would have published the plans for D-Day if they had gotten their hands on them - they genuinely don't care.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 30):
Even without evidence presented in a court of law you have no doubt which says more about you than it does about the evidence for or against Mr. Cheney's innocence or guilt.



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 30):
How about you present some of that evidence since, absent that evidence, in the American system of jurisprudence individuals are entitled to the presumption of innocence and, in a court of law, must be proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. Even without evidence presented in a court of law you have no doubt which says more about you than it does about the evidence for or against Mr. Cheney's innocence or guilt.

I don't think Falcon is capable of seeing Cheney or any republican other than through a red haze of hatred.
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Ken777
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:22 am

There is no use spending money going after Cheney. There are far better uses for the money.

i have no problems, however, if some of the games that were played in the VPs office are brought to light. As time goes on I believe that Cheney will be clear as a control freak who marched to his own tune - no matter how off key he was.

The importance of not allowing the man to hide behind a wall of secrecy is not to shame him. No chance of that for conservatives and no need of that for moderates and liberals. The need is so that it will be clear to all who follow him that there is no hiding, even if hiding is possible while in office.
 
Falcon84
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:25 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
The article did make clear that whatever this program was, it was not a domestic operation.

I was not referring to the article, but all the stuff Cheney hid behind an Iron Curtain of secrecy for 8 years, and, as I said-and you obviously did NOT read-it wasn't all on national security issues.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
Perhaps he was hiding them because you had organizations like the New York Times that didn't give a damn about the security of our troops.

Second time. Go back and read what I wrote! I wasn't referring to National Security/military issues. What about his oil agenda, and hiding all the crap he did, which ended up being a bonanza to his oil buddies?

READ, Charles!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
I don't think Falcon is capable of seeing Cheney or any republican other than through a red haze of hatred.

Whatever Charles. It isn't hate. It's disgust over what Bush and Cheney did to this nation, and the damage it caused to this nation. You want hatred-try the 8 years of GOP witch hunts of Bill Clinton, and the 6 months of crap already thrown at this president. Look at your own party first, Charles, before talking about hate.
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stasisLAX
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:32 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
A man who hides things like that, imho, is hiding them for a reason-because he doesn't want people to find out what he's doing.

 checkmark 

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." quoted from a book written in 1935(!!!) by Sinclair Lewis.  yes 
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Falcon84
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:35 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 41):
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." quoted from a book written in 1935(!!!) by Sinclair Lewis.

How true.
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dxing
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:46 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday."

Those two people should be arrested and charged with divulging sensitive information immediately. If the NYT reporter won't divulge his sources he should be placed in jail for contempt. There is no way that these two individuals could be that close to the committee and not have signed confidentiality agreements. If something is wrong then it needs to be investigated but telling a newspaper reporter about it is not the way to go about it.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
The law requires the president to make sure the intelligence committees “are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity.”

Well that's part of it. The rest states:

But the language of the statute, the amended National Security Act of 1947, leaves some leeway for judgment, saying such briefings should be done “to the extent consistent with due regard for the protection from unauthorized disclosure of classified information relating to sensitive intelligence sources and methods or other exceptionally sensitive matters.”

Seeing as how these two couldn't keep their mouthes shut the part about "due regard for the protection from unauthorized disclosure" is especially ironic.

I find it hard to believe that CIA staffers kept a program secret from the Director for 5 months.
It will be interesting to see what this program is. Until then, some of you will just have to try your best to keep from wetting your pants. In the story it says:

Members of Congress have differed on the significance of the program, whose details remained secret and which even some Democrats have said was properly classified. Most of those interviewed, however, have said that it was an important activity that should have been disclosed to the intelligence committees.

So at this point, unless something more sinister comes out I highly doubt anyone will be going to jail anytime soon. Especially when you read:

Intelligence and Congressional officials have said the unidentified program did not involve the C.I.A. interrogation program and did not involve domestic intelligence activities. They have said the program was started by the counterterrorism center at the C.I.A. shortly after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, but never became fully operational, involving planning and some training that took place off and on from 2001 until this year.

You know, the Pentagon plans for wars and pre-emptive strikes against all kinds of countries, should Secretary Gates be up on charges for doing his job?

So it looks like its all a big whoop about something that never got past the planning and or basic training stage. The NYT must really be suffering some horrendus revenue problems to have to try and make a big ta do about this.
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L-188
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:42 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 41):
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." quoted from a book written in 1935(!!!) by Sinclair Lewis.

That is exactly what Moveon.org and Acorn are doing.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Going back 46 YEARS to make a point?

Thank you for agreeing it is true.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
By the way, L-188, did you check out the link to factcheck.org I posted?

And who checks Factcheck? And how much actually research did they do?
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Aaron747
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:54 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 44):
And who checks Factcheck? And how much actually research did they do?

Considering you are decidedly partisan and Factcheck is a registered nonpartisan policy organization, I'll take their word over yours categorically.
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kc135topboom
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:48 pm

I find this very funny. A Congress who refuses to read the bills they vote on would read anything the CIA send them...

"Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), who serves as chairwoman of the Intelligence Oversight & Investigations Subcommittee, told POLITICO today that she intended to pursue an investigation into Panetta’s actions – and she questioned whether the CIA and the White House was even aware that the agency had a responsibility to notify Congress of its programs."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24775.html#ixzz0L3K2JVOd&D

"But one U.S. intelligence official, speaking to POLITICO on the condition of anonymity Friday, said that Panetta briefed lawmakers within about a day of learning about the program — as soon as he could bring members of the oversight committee together for a meeting. "

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24775.html#ixzz0L3KHl5Mp&D

""It is inexcusable for the CIA to lie, mislead or withhold information from the Congress. The intelligence committee depends on the presentation of reliable and complete information when deliberating important decisions that impact the national security of the United States," Schakowsky wrote in the letter "

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24775.html#ixzz0L3KS3DPh&D

“There really is a pattern here,” she said, adding that from top intelligence officials she had seen “a contempt from Congress, an annoyance of having to come to talk to us and answer questions and ‘wasn’t that just a bothersome waste of time?’

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24775.html#ixzz0L3KdNHjY&D

Yet, the 110th and 111th Congress continues to have a comtempt from the citizens of the US.
 
dxing
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:05 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 36):
Give me a break, Even Stanley Kubrik was making fun of them in 1963

Going back 46 YEARS to make a point?

Good God, but you need some help!



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 41):
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." quoted from a book written in 1935(!!!) by Sinclair Lewis.

How true.

How black is that pot?

All this was to be expected. The Democratic party never stops at trying to politicize our intelligence agencies and every time they do, they do nothing but weaken them.
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seb146
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:48 pm

I can't say this surprises me. I can't say it surprises me the righties, all of a sudden, come out on the side of Cheney, wrapping themselves in the flag and shouting about patriotism louder than anyone else. Cheney was a very secrative person. What happened during his energy meetings with oil companies? What about his quote about him "being in the shadows?" What about him insisting he was outside the bounds of the Constitution, since his office spans both Legislative and Executive branches? Cheney is a thug. Cheney is an evil man. How many deferments did he get to get out of military service before he helped send thousands of our own men, women, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters off to fight in a war built on lies? Really? Why are people still supporting this man?

Quoting DXing (Reply 47):
The Democratic party never stops at trying to politicize our intelligence agencies and every time they do, they do nothing but weaken them.

No. The Democratic party tries to get to the bottom of the lies and law breaking. There is a huge difference. But, being a staunch supporter of the Republican party, you will never see that. That is the sad part.
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STT757
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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!

Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 33):
You all need to realize that the Times doesn't report the news, they attempt to shape it to fit an agenda.

Do you even read the New York Times?.. I'm a subscriber, they are the best media source we have as a Country.
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