futurepilot16
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Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:25 am

Don't know if this was already posted from last year, but apparently, a Mother and Father has been charged with negligent homicide after their 11 year old daughter died of diabetes. The Mother claims that she believes sickness is caused by sin and can be cured by God. Therefore, she did not bring a helpless 11 year old to see a doctor thus she died.

Quote:
Leilani Neumann told the jury in her husband's trial that she thought her daughter's March 2008 illness was a test of her religious faith and she didn't take the girl to a doctor because that would have been "complete disobedience to what we believe."

What do you guys think about this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32191966/?GT1=43001
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Phoenix9
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:31 am



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Thread starter):
What do you guys think about this?

All I can say is I hope that they have learned their lesson. What could be worse when your own child dies of neglegence? No punishment or jail time can ever come close to that. They might be in jail for a few years but the wound they have inflicted upon themselves will bleed until their hearts stop beating. Next time someone in their family gets sick, I hope a doctor would be first thing on their mind.

I feel sorry for the girl who lost her life. May she rest in peace.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:40 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 1):
All I can say is I hope that they have learned their lesson. What could be worse when your own child dies of neglegence? No punishment or jail time can ever come close to that.

One would hope.

But something tells me that folks who wouldn't take their deathly ill child to a doctor probably don't have the same conception of what it means to lose that child as most of us "normal" folk.

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 1):
Next time someone in their family gets sick, I hope a doctor would be first thing on their mind.

Again, one would hope. But jesus, they let one kid die. I hope they don't ever have to have a second chance with one of their other kids.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:53 am

What do I think? That they should be charged with first degree reckless homicide instead.
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LTU932
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:58 am

Those people should be castrated as well, so they never have any children again. And also, I find negligent homicide to be too mild of a charge. I may be emotional here, but for me, those two should have been charged with nothing less than murder, or at the very least, with manslaughter.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:07 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 1):
All I can say is I hope that they have learned their lesson. What could be worse when your own child dies of neglegence? No punishment or jail time can ever come close to that. They might be in jail for a few years but the wound they have inflicted upon themselves will bleed until their hearts stop beating. Next time someone in their family gets sick, I hope a doctor would be first thing on their mind.

I feel sorry for the girl who lost her life. May she rest in peace.

I dont think these parents will think that way. They thought the disease would be cured by god. Since it wasn't they believe it was god's plan and therefore it is what was supposed to happen. They aren't going to be acting the same way we would for our family. They honestly believe it was god's plan and think they did nothing wrong.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:28 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
those two should have been charged with nothing less than murder, or at the very least, with manslaughter.

Well, I do believe the 2nd degree reckless homicide charge is more severe than any form of manslaughter available.
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texan
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:13 am



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 3):
first degree reckless homicide instead.

First degree murder (homicide) generally requires premeditation and deliberation plus an intent to kill. Second degree still requires intent which, in this case, is too bad. Even voluntary manslaughter requires intent. The best they could get them with was negligent homicide since that is the only statute that fit the crime. Damnation.

On the other hand, I'm glad other people are buying into the current government health plan created by Reagan: Just Say No to Sickness.

Texan
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:40 am



Quoting Texan (Reply 7):
First degree murder (homicide) generally requires premeditation and deliberation plus an intent to kill. Second degree still requires intent which, in this case, is too bad

What you are talking about is not the same as first and second degree reckless homicide. The charge in this case is 2nd degree reckless homicide, not negligent homicide. These reckless homicide charges don't carry a premeditated intent to kill like first and second degree murder. The first degree reckless homicide require a strong disregard for human life.

That's our criminal code here in WI, you're probably thinking of your own jurisdiction.

Heres the statutes in quesiton.

940.02 First−degree reckless homicide. (1) Whoever
recklessly causes the death of another human being under circumstances
which show utter disregard for human life is guilty of a
Class B felony.

940.06 Second−degree reckless homicide. (1) Whoever
recklessly causes the death of another human being is guilty
of a Class D felony.

940.06 was the charge in this case.
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ltbewr
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:55 am

Such situations shows a deep conflict as to the USA's almost absolute and Constitutionally protected rights as to how one can practice a faith in this country. That can include parents withholding usual and normal medical treatment of children as the parents have in general absolute rights over their children as to medical treatment if it would conflict with their faith beliefs. Various court decisions have supported extreme displays of beliefs, unless it involves the use of generally illegal drugs (Native Americans and Peyote) or services with poisonous snakes (some Southern cults).
Still, in this case the parents could have found a doctor that would have accommodated their beliefs and assured the health of the girl.
 
texan
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:41 am



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 8):

That's our criminal code here in WI, you're probably thinking of your own jurisdiction.

Gotcha. Yeah, just finished the bar exam so I had multistate law on the mind.

Texan
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san747
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:50 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 1):
Next time someone in their family gets sick, I hope a doctor would be first thing on their mind.

Probably won't be, unfortunately. You can never accuse people with beliefs that strong of learning a lesson. Like ScrubbsYWG said, to them, it was God's plan/will that she die.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 2):

But something tells me that folks who wouldn't take their deathly ill child to a doctor probably don't have the same conception of what it means to lose that child as most of us "normal" folk.

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Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Still, in this case the parents could have found a doctor that would have accommodated their beliefs and assured the health of the girl.

I think going to any doctor of any kind would have been against whatever beliefs they have. I still can't understand how not saving or at least trying to help your child sick with a deadly disease is a positive affirmation of your faith.

Most of the time, beliefs like this are harmless, but this time, a child died and that is inexcusable. I'll ask any of my Christian friends, but I'm pretty sure that what those parents did is not in line with the doctrine of any Christian denomination I've ever heard of.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:12 am



Quoting San747 (Reply 11):
Most of the time, beliefs like this are harmless, but this time, a child died and that is inexcusable. I'll ask any of my Christian friends, but I'm pretty sure that what those parents did is not in line with the doctrine of any Christian denomination I've ever heard of.

That's the same way I feel. As a matter of fact, I don't think these people were straight christians. It didn't say that they were in the article, all it said was that they thought that the sickness was caused by sin and was a test of their "faith". Faith to what? I don't Know the answer to that. But if it is christianity, they must adhere to a pretty radical form because I know people who are christians and they would never do anything like this.
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jamincan
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religi

Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:35 am



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 3):
What do I think? That they should be charged with first degree reckless homicide instead.

I'm not quite sure how their behaviour could be considered reckless. Recklessness implies that someone participates in an activity while disregarding the consequences of that activity, while negligence implies that someone fails to act and disregards the direct consequences of failing to do anything.
 
lowrider
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:41 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Such situations shows a deep conflict as to the USA's almost absolute and Constitutionally protected rights as to how one can practice a faith in this country.

As with many of our Constitutionally protected rights, there is the risk for misuse. However, at the writing of the Constitution, it was decided to err on the permissive side that would allow for this occasional misuse, so the vast majority could enjoy the responsible use.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religi

Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:52 am



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 13):
I'm not quite sure how their behaviour could be considered reckless. Recklessness implies that someone participates in an activity while disregarding the consequences of that activity, while negligence implies that someone fails to act and disregards the direct consequences of failing to do anything.

Then why were they charged with reckless?
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LTU932
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:10 am

I still think mandatory castration should be applied to such wreckless parents. If they let their kid die because "it's God's will", then it's obvious that they are not fit to be parents, and that they do not deserve to have children ever again.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:15 am



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 13):
I'm not quite sure how their behaviour could be considered reckless. Recklessness implies that someone participates in an activity while disregarding the consequences of that activity, while negligence implies that someone fails to act and disregards the direct consequences of failing to do anything.

I agree, I thought it should be negligent homicide as well. But I think that in the case of reckless, they can be sentenced to more time like 25 years, while negligent could get you about 12.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Charged With Negligent Homicide. Cause? Religion

Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:46 am



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 17):
I agree, I thought it should be negligent homicide as well. But I think that in the case of reckless, they can be sentenced to more time like 25 years, while negligent could get you about 12.

What would you charge him with?

940.01 First−degree intentional homicide.
940.02 First−degree reckless homicide.
940.03 Felony murder.
940.04 Abortion.
940.05 Second−degree intentional homicide.
940.06 Second−degree reckless homicide.
940.07 Homicide resulting from negligent control of vicious animal.
940.08 Homicide by negligent handling of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire.
940.09 Homicide by intoxicated use of vehicle or firearm.
940.10 Homicide by negligent operation of vehicle.
940.11 Mutilating or hiding a corpse.
940.12 Assisting suicide.
940.13 Abortion exception.
940.15 Abortion.
940.16 Partial−birth abortion.
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