AGM100
Topic Author
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Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:51 pm

Interesting event I guess , first time in 15 years Russian Submarines patrol off US Coast line. According to the article the subs are Akula class attack subs not boomers ,so it is a little less of a threat it seems .

I don't feel that it is all that provocative ... maybe it is ?. I would certainly hope that the Navy tracked em there and was trailing them .

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/world/05patrol.html?_r=1

A worry of mine however ,.. is that our Military becomes so focused on fighting guerrilla insurgents and pirates that we let our guard down. Is our navy now more focused on missile threats and sea to land attack then they are Submarine hunting like in the Cold War? I have no knowledge of it .. just curious . I also read the other day that the Navy had grounded a good portion of our P-3C fleet for spar cracks and that it was going to be a while until they were back on line.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Mir
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:21 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
A worry of mine however ,.. is that our Military becomes so focused on fighting guerrilla insurgents and pirates that we let our guard down.

I don't know if I'd say we let our guard down, since we knew that the subs were there.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Lumberton
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:22 pm

I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise. We can save on fuel.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
michlis
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I don't know if I'd say we let our guard down, since we knew that the subs were there.

Even the Russians acknowledge the presence of the subs.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise. We can save on fuel.

There you go. Give those P-3s a work out and possible live tests for the P-8 to help develop the electronics!
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:17 pm

Two Akula's 200nm off the East Coast is not exactly the next Cuban Missile Crisis; USN LA Improved are superior in technology and crew quality (due to training) and the USN Seawolf and Virginia class subs have since then relegated everything else under the seas wholly inferior.

Interesting, but not frightening.
 
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par13del
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:57 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Interesting event I guess , first time in 15 years Russian Submarines patrol off US Coast line

I have no sources but I would question that 15 year gap. Apparently these subs have also been seen on the surface, they are nuke boats, so whats with coming up for air?
This is probably another publicity stunt, if a normal aptrol they ceratinley would not be that close to be called a pair and the US Navy would not be saying anything. The US Navy has patrols by China, Russia and other areas, no fuss there, figure the Russians do the same.

As for practising ASW, the US Navy has been "reshaping" its capabilities since the end of the Cold War, on paper they are fine, wwhy test them?
 
EMBQA
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:38 am

Quoting Michlis (Reply 3):
Give those P-3s a work out


The P3's have all but been pulled from the eastcoast.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise

Yea...? Just how....?? They have closed all of the military bases in the northeast......

[Edited 2009-08-05 18:02:56]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:38 am



Quoting Par13del (Reply 5):
I have no sources but I would question that 15 year gap. Apparently these subs have also been seen on the surface, they are nuke boats, so whats with coming up for air?

According to CNN News:

"Two nuclear-powered submarines have stayed in international waters. The U.S. miltary is monitoring these subs but recognizes right to "freedom of navigation". Russia hasn't been able to send subs so far afield for years, military official says

The Akula-class nuclear-powered submarines, which are normally equipped with surface-loaded cruise missiles and surface-to-air missiles, have stayed in international waters, the source said. These are not the class of submarines that can launch intercontinental nuclear missiles."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/05/rus...ines/index.html?section=cnn_latest

I'm thinking that the "RESET" button that the Obama Administration gave to Comrade Putin had no positive effect.  crazy 
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BEG2IAH
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:44 am

How many US subs are off Russian coast? I would guess at least one, so what's the big deal in having Russian subs in international waters?

BEG2IAH
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
astuteman
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:53 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise. We can save on fuel.

Not that this matters much to an SSN....  Wink

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
the USN Seawolf and Virginia class subs have since then relegated everything else under the seas wholly inferior.

I know for a fact this isn't true..  no 

But at least we're on the same side...  Smile

Rgds
 
michlis
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:40 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
The P3's have all but been pulled from the eastcoast.

There are still a few around. They occassionally do touch and goes at Pease in New Hampshire.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:27 am

What's the big deal?

The American public has an irrational sense of entitlement when it comes to security of its borders.

If they only knew how many assets we have near, on, or beyond the borders of nations we consider enemies... it would make these two Ruskie subs off the coast look like a joke! Hell, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 borders of hostile nations, that I've flown along... sometimes purposely doing so in an aggressive manner.

It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

[Edited 2009-08-06 04:29:07]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:46 am



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 9):
Not that this matters much to an SSN.

We also use surface ships and planes you know....  duck 

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Yea...? Just how....?? They have closed all of the military bases in the northeast..

Umm...I'm getting old but I seem to recall that ships and planes, even SSNs (!), can travel some distance.  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
michlis
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:58 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
What's the big deal?

The American public has an irrational sense of entitlement when it comes to security of its borders.

If they only knew how many assets we have near, on, or beyond the borders of nations we consider enemies... it would make these two Ruskie subs off the coast look like a joke! Hell, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 borders of hostile nations, that I've flown along... sometimes purposely doing so in an aggressive manner.

It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

Very nicely put.  bigthumbsup 
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
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STT757
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:25 pm

I wish they would revisit the decision to close Brunswick NAS, no more ASW aircraft in Iceland, New England or even the Mid-Atlantic. They're all down in Jacksonville FL.
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Flighty
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:12 pm

Wait a minute, you mean Russia has nuclear subs that go global? News flash indeed! How stupid are people?  Big grin

Item #697 of when we do things, it is considered normal, but when they do it to us, it is considered harassment. Personally Id much rather have Russians patrolling there than some other countries.
 
AGM100
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:37 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

OK Already geez 60 , I thought it was kind of a cool thread to start . Man its a tough crowd on here ! Big grin

I don't think its a big deal either , but its not everyday us civilian hear about Nuke subs patrolling off our coast. Man am I stupid ..
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting Michlis (Reply 10):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
The P3's have all but been pulled from the eastcoast.

There are still a few around. They occassionally do touch and goes at Pease in New Hampshire

The P-3's are still at Jacksonville NAS, or at least I still saw them flying around there last week.
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:39 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

OK Already geez 60 , I thought it was kind of a cool thread to start . Man its a tough crowd on here !

We'll blame it on NY Times, no worries.  Smile

BEG2IAH
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
nomadd22
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:35 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
What's the big deal?

The American public has an irrational sense of entitlement when it comes to security of its borders.

If they only knew how many assets we have near, on, or beyond the borders of nations we consider enemies... it would make these two Ruskie subs off the coast look like a joke! Hell, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 borders of hostile nations, that I've flown along... sometimes purposely doing so in an aggressive manner.

It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

You been delegated to speak for the American public now? Save your self righteous superior Bravo Sierra for the Bar.
Anon
 
AirRyan
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:50 pm



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 9):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
the USN Seawolf and Virginia class subs have since then relegated everything else under the seas wholly inferior.

I know for a fact this isn't true.. no

But at least we're on the same side... Smile

The Astute is a fine class of ship, but I'll take Electric Boat and their sound reputation of submarine innovation over BAE's. BAE is the grasshopper to Electric Boat's kung fu master.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
Wait a minute, you mean Russia has nuclear subs that go global? News flash indeed! How stupid are people?

Yeah but like the article points out, since the fall of the Soviet Union and evident by more than one submariner catastrophe since then, they haven't had the budget to project their force as they once used to during the height of the Cold War.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:46 pm

What worries me is that the US seems to be focusing everything on the types of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and forgetting that we are still vulnerable to large countries like Russia. One of the reasons for halting production of the F-22 was we need aircraft aimed at fighting insurgents, not large countries. I find this to be a big mistake, and this Russia incident proves my point. We may think that all future wars will be like the ones in Iraq where you are fighting non technical small groups of people on the ground in cities, but the fact remains that we should be prepared to fight a country the size of Russia or China.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
OK Already geez 60 , I thought it was kind of a cool thread to start . Man its a tough crowd on here ! Big grin

I don't think its a big deal either , but its not everyday us civilian hear about Nuke subs patrolling off our coast. Man am I stupid ..



Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 18):
We'll blame it on NY Times, no worries.

AGM - no I wasn't aiming that at you! I was aiming it at the numerous news outlets/commentators who highlight this story as though its something alarming. And it's not just this story, but go back and look at the overreactions to when two Russian bombers flew down to Cuba, or a few Bears flew along the northern borders of Alaska. Hell, even when the Chinese sub popped up within out carrier group. In these events the media, and some people, act like, "the nerve of those other guys! Who do they think they are?" When in reality, we're doing the same thing, and doing it on purpose. So no worries AGM, we're good.

Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 19):
You been delegated to speak for the American public now?

Uhhhh.... I wasn't speaking for the American public. If you go back and read it, I was speaking about the American public.

But if you would like to nominate me to fill that role, sure I'll take it!  Big grin
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
michlis
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:49 pm



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 21):
What worries me is that the US seems to be focusing everything on the types of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and forgetting that we are still vulnerable to large countries like Russia.

Good point, but really a lot of this sub activity is about Russia strutting to remind us their still in the game. Also, the anniversary of the Georgia war is here and this could be muscle flexing to highlight the fact.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 17):
The P-3's are still at Jacksonville NAS

Yup... Jaxs is it.... NAS Brunswick is set to close soon... leaving only NAS Jacksonville on the east coast. At one time we had 3 VP bases just on the eastcoast... NAS Brunswick had 4 Squardrons with as many as 30 aircraft stationed there... now just a hand full are left
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
lhcvg
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:54 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise. We can save on fuel.



Quoting Michlis (Reply 3):
There you go. Give those P-3s a work out and possible live tests for the P-8 to help develop the electronics!

Yeah, and as far as I'm concerned if they were there for two weeks, that means they just handed us two weeks' worth of sonar recording tapes of some of their better subs. As another poster stated regarding a CMC-2 I just don't see this as that big a deal. Even at worst case, how much could a couple subs do anyway? Obviously they could do a bit, but like the CMC, they are literally in our backyard thousands of miles from home.  yawn 
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:01 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
the USN Seawolf and Virginia class subs have since then relegated everything else under the seas wholly inferior.

I didn't think you guys could track a Trafalgar, let alone its replacement. Diesel electric subs are even quieter the nuclear ones.
 
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STT757
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 24):
NAS Brunswick is set to close soon... leaving only NAS Jacksonville on the east coast. At one time we had 3 VP bases just on the eastcoast... NAS Brunswick had 4 Squardrons with as many as 30 aircraft stationed there... now just a hand full are left

There were more than that, but for the past 15 years or so it's been Jacksonville (3-4 squarons), Willow Grove JRB (2 squadrons) and Brunswick Maine (3 Squadrons). Willow Grove lost their P-3s about 5 years ago (switched to C-130Ts), and Brunswick is in the process of closing. In fact one of the squadrons has already moved to Jacksonville. Eventually Jacksonville with have 5 squadrons.

The Pentagon originally wanted to keep Brunswick NAS open as a Naval Air Field, without aircraft. However the BRAC committee over ruled that decision and decided to close Brunswick outright. The BRAC committee maintened that if ASW missions were need to be moved back to the New England area that the vairous Air National Guard bases in the region (Pease, Bangor, Barnes etc..) could host Navy Patrol squadron detatchments.

I think Pease NH would be the perfect location for Navy Patrol Squadron detatchments to operate from, plenty of ramp and it's relatively close to Brunswick NAS. I think they should bring back the Reserve Patrol Squadrons by adding an additional 36 P-8s to the existing order, that would enable Reserve Patrol squadrons to be established at...

1 Squadron Whidbey Island
1 Squadron Point Mugu
1 Squadron NAS New Orleans
1 Squadron Jacksonville
2 Squadrons at one of the following locations: Pease ANG, McGuire AFB, Bangor ANG
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:47 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 27):
I think they should bring back the Reserve Patrol Squadrons by adding an additional 36 P-8s to the existing order, that would enable Reserve Patrol squadrons to be established at...

It would definitely be an interesting concept to bring the new P-8As online for active service, while pushing down the P-3s into Reserve Patrol squadrons. At that level, the reduced work/flying demands could probably allow for those P-3s to continue flying for quite some time.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:58 pm



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 21):
What worries me is that the US seems to be focusing everything on the types of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and forgetting that we are still vulnerable to large countries like Russia. One of the reasons for halting production of the F-22 was we need aircraft aimed at fighting insurgents, not large countries. I find this to be a big mistake, and this Russia incident proves my point. We may think that all future wars will be like the ones in Iraq where you are fighting non technical small groups of people on the ground in cities, but the fact remains that we should be prepared to fight a country the size of Russia or China.

Exactly! Far better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it!

As for the subs, I agree with most here who say it's no big deal. To put it into perspective, the D5 missile allows our boomers to sail just off our own coast and still be in range of "targets" pretty much anywhere in Russia.  Wink
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AirRyan
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:00 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
I didn't think you guys could track a Trafalgar, let alone its replacement. Diesel electric subs are even quieter the nuclear ones.

Uh huh, well if that's the extent of your information on the USN's modern nuclear submarine fleet, than please don't let me be the one to burst your bubble!  Smile
 
astuteman
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:18 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
I didn't think you guys could track a Trafalgar, let alone its replacement

Whether it's a post-refit example equipped with 2076, or not, will influence that position...  Smile

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 30):
Uh huh, well if that's the extent of your information on the USN's modern nuclear submarine fleet

That's the fun of these discussions isn't it? Most of the real information doesn't come to light...

Which in the context of bursting bubbles is probably just as well  Wink

Rgds
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:36 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 30):
Uh huh, well if that's the extent of your information on the USN's modern nuclear submarine fleet, than please don't let me be the one to burst your bubble!

Not my info, I heard it from a BAe rep at the last Euronaval Expo. He also said the hardest subs of the lot to track were the Vangards.
 
astuteman
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:35 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
Not my info, I heard it from a BAe rep at the last Euronaval Expo

Wasn't me guv.  Wink

In truth, such matters are pretty sensitive, and these days we work VERY closely with our friends and allies in the US Subs fleet (and at EB, for that matter).

And who, by the way, aren't the least bit arrogant.
Like our guys, they're extremely professional and want to know where they're good, and where they're not.

Rgds
 
AirRyan
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:21 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
Not my info, I heard it from a BAe rep at the last Euronaval Expo. He also said the hardest subs of the lot to track were the Vangards.

Well look at the source; BAE had to ask Electric Boat for help in their Astute manufacturing process. I know the Astute is a fine vessel and I wish the Royal Navy had more of they as well as some more advanced surface vessels.

Chinese Type 093? Russian Graney's?

Anything other than USN Seawolf or Virginia classes subs and the Astute would be my pick.

And modern diesel-electrics you say? Nothing but defensive platforms for use in home waters only.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 33):
And who, by the way, aren't the least bit arrogant.
Like our guys, they're extremely professional and want to know where they're good, and where they're not.

It's in confidence that I know the USN and Electric Boat lead the World in modern submarine technology and advancement and have been doing so since 1899. Superior crew training and technology are but just two parts of the equation, you also have to spend the budget to acquire the vessels, too.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6346
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:36 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 34):
BAE had to ask Electric Boat for help in their Astute manufacturing process

 talktothehand 
Are you kidding?
When Astute declared an overrun of £500m and 3 years, the UK MOD insisted that EB audit what we were doing.
Dumbasses.
Do you know what EB said?
"We couldn't do what they've done for the cost or in the timeframe - what's your problem? The Contract was wrong"
(and how)
EB still work with us on Astute, and we're working jointly on the Trident Successor (and on Wesinghouse's AP1000 Nuclear Power station, somewhat curiously, but no matter)
I work with them just about every day.

And I'd tell you which direction most of the learning has been, if it wasn't for that "bubble" thing.

We had a number of EB'ism's foisted on us through political pressure which we're in the process of undoing.
Not that they were wrong per se. But different designs and different infrastructures demand different solutions.

I have great admiration for EB - they're like us in so many ways, and its a pleasure to work with them.
But they are emphatically NOT showing us how to build submarines.  no 
(Mind you, the S9G is sensational from a constructability viewpoint - love it. But the reason we're stuck with PWR2 is nothing to do with ability or engineering skill. It's to with politics around RR being the design authority in perpetuity thanks to the 1958 agreement)

Nor do they buid any submarines (Seawolf or Virginia) that render either Astute or Trafalgar "wholly inferior"  no 

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 34):
It's in confidence that I know the USN and Electric Boat lead the World in modern submarine technology and advancement and have been doing so since 1899.

I admire your confidence, AirRyan.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 34):
you also have to spend the budget to acquire the vessels, too.

There are some fascinating discussions going on at the moment between ourselves and the USN about what large budgets actually get you (ref. my earlier comment)

Rgds
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:51 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 34):
And modern diesel-electrics you say? Nothing but defensive platforms for use in home waters only.

And what would you call the Collins Class, they are ocean going with a mission profile similar to a nuclear attack sub. There are also some rather nice stories I've been told about the Aussie Oberons going into Vladivostok taking snaps of the Soviet fleet, from what I've bean told the Oberon was used because the US didn't have anything quiet enough so they asked the Aussies for help.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:54 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 27):
1 Squadron Whidbey Island

I doubt there would be much need for more than a couple of P-3's at Whidbey Island. 407 Maritime Patrol Squadron already operates a number of CP-140's out of CFB Comox.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
maxter
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 2:23 am

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:21 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
And what would you call the Collins Class, they are ocean going with a mission profile similar to a nuclear attack sub.

And then there is this... A bit dated perhaps, but still an exceptionally capable platform.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/na...es-formidable-assault-rimpac-2207/

Cheers
maxter
 
studedave
Posts: 463
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RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:02 am



Quoting TheCol (Reply 37):
I doubt there would be much need for more than a couple of P-3's at Whidbey Island. 407 Maritime Patrol Squadron already operates a number of CP-140's out of CFB Comox.

And they (alone) can cover the ENTIRE West Coast of North America???

Those guys are gooood....
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
olle
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:11 am

Sweden used to have worse problems  Wink

Here is a Soviet sub into swedish waters 20 years ago!

http://svt.se/content/1/c6/44/87/63/u137_svtbild.jpg
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:16 am

Olle, that would be the 'Whiskey' class sub that ran aground.
As in 'Whiskey on the rocks', as one Scotch company would use in advertising at the time!
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:17 pm

How good are the German Type 212 submarines compared to the international competition?
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:19 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
There are also some rather nice stories I've been told about the Aussie Oberons going into Vladivostok taking snaps of the Soviet fleet, from what I've bean told the Oberon was used because the US didn't have anything quiet enough so they asked the Aussies for help.

Entering Vlad? That sounds like pub talk or opdec. Why not Petro? That's where the boomers were. Why risk a boat and crew for info that could have been obtained by waiting outside the harbor, or via overhead imagry? Diesel boats are optimized for certain shallow water ops. For endurance and open ocean operations the nuke is (much) preferred.

BTW, in the 80s and 90s, before the USN decided liquor was an evil force, lots of these stories abounded.

Here is an "account of an account" of the Oberons during the Cold War for those interested.
http://www.upperiscope.com.au/miscellaneous/The%20mystery%20boats.html

Back to the topic at hand, I've always felt that tracking a submarine in its element is part science and part witchcraft. Even another submarine at the same depth as the target has difficulty. Opportunities to track the "red forces" are rare of late. That is why the first thing that occurred to me when I read that the Russians had obligingly sent two Akulas to our coast was that it was a wonderful intel and training opportunity.

Besides, I would not be surprised to learn that we weren't "all over" (as inside) the Akulas and Sierras (and Oscars and Typhoons) in the '90s at some point. Well, maybe that's pub talk....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
astuteman
Posts: 6346
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:15 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 43):
Back to the topic at hand, I've always felt that tracking a submarine in its element is part science and part witchcraft.

Go along with that. there's a fair bit of "circumstantial" overlaid on top of the "engineered", as far as I can see  Smile

Rgds
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:55 pm

Thanks for the interesting link Lumbertown.

The 'O' class were one of the high points of British post war designs, both sub and surface vessels.
Hence their export success too.

The RN had one, HMS Onyx I think, with the fwd sonar dome replaced by hatches for SF insertion.
Certainly inserted SBS on to the Falklands, maybe even in Argentina in the very southernmost region too.
It was the only non nuke sub down there.

Racko, in 1982 the RN were very concerned about the two modern German boats Argentina had bought some years before. (Oh no, not U-Boats again !)
As it turned out, they played no part in the war.
Some Argentine sources assert that they carried out torpedo attacks against the RN, but faulty equipment or training prevented success.

Seems unlikely, certainly no RN ship was damaged by any torpedo. (The same sources also say HMS Invincible was badly damaged by bombs despite no evidence and 1000's of sailors keeping quiet all this time and it being undamaged on it's return).

Certainly if the RN did not lack one thing in 1982, it was ASW capability.
Either they could not get the boats to operate, (unlikely), or they like the surface fleet chose not to fight after the Belgrano .
They had the technical competence and the subs had been in service 7-8 years by then.

That is rather more likely.

The RN Task Force commander Sandy Woodward put it this way interesting to see the new ships arriving, like HMS Cardiff calling an ASW alert every-time a shrimp farts.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10020
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:58 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 43):
That sounds like pub talk or opdec.

It was recently declassified, not pub talk at all, http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...face/2006/09/07/1157222265317.html

Do a goodle search you'll find lots of referances.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:41 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
It was recently declassified, not pub talk at all

That link says nothing about "going into" Vladivostok harbor clandestinely. Our boats, and those of our allies, routinely conducted surveillance of Vlad and Petro during the cold war. Of course, I am interpreting the "going into" as "entering the harbor".

What do you mean?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
zanl188
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:51 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 47):
That link says nothing about "going into" Vladivostok harbor clandestinely.

Indeed, in fact the link states the subs stayed in international waters..

"The vessels' captains were ordered to stay out of foreign territorial waters, but they could seek permission to move in closer if they felt the risk was worth it. Mr Gatfield found no evidence submarines did so.

Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10020
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..

Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:04 pm

I was told entering the harbor.

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