baroque
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What Could Follow Hamas

Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:08 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8202746.stm


Gaza Islamist leader dies in raid
The leader of a radical Islamist group involved in a shootout with Hamas in Gaza is one of at least 22 people killed in the raid, reports say.
Abdul-Latif Moussa died in an explosion, officials said, but it was not clear whether he blew himself up.
On Friday Hamas, which controls Gaza, launched a bloody crackdown on the group, Jund Ansar Allah, after it declared an "Islamic emirate".


Hamas is by no means the most extreme of organizations. Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

As they say, be careful what you wish for. As in:

The Hamas spokesman, Taher al-Nono, said: "We hold Abdul-Latif Moussa and his followers fully responsible for what happened because of his hasty declaration during Friday prayers of a so-called 'Islamic Emirate'."
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:27 pm

Baroque, my ausie friend, dispite what the BBC, or any other news media says, Hamas is still a terrorist organization, according to the US, UK, EU, and Australia. The fact they have "problems" with another terrorist group, Jund Ansar Allah, and both have fighting between themsleves, is only a good thing for civilized people.

Some people insist that a terrorist is simply a freedom fighter by another name. I don't buy that as freedom fighters don't routinely target innocent men, women, and children just to grab a headline.
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:42 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Baroque, my ausie friend, dispite what the BBC, or any other news media says, Hamas is still a terrorist organization, according to the US, UK, EU, and Australia.

Or my US friend you could read a bit more carefully. I said:

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

Which might raise the question of why has Hamas used terrorist tactics? This is seldom asked. Then again, I am sure some would argue that many western powers seldom ask why their armies are engaged in wars.

Yep, that is the best thing, just keep banging out heads against the walls. We just know we will feel the pain more if we stop.

Arguably declaring the whole of Hamas a terrorist organization was a fairly major mistake as it ruled offside the most effective social support organization that the Palestinians had as well as the terrorist side of the organization. Surely it is not beyond the wit of all these experienced diplomats to be able to cope with an organization that has more than one function? Or then again, perhaps it is.

At all times we must remember

Four legs good
Two legs bad.

Oh no, that is the other side. I forgot, humble grovellings.
 
fridgmus
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:56 am

I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

Hamas knows what it needs to do: Renounce terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

As Baroque says, they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

I'm hoping that if Hamas moderates and gets control of their militant personnel, Israel will back off and they can start down the road to Peace. Or they can just keep killing each other.

Time will tell.

F
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us330
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:40 am



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
As Baroque says, they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

Maybe in Gaza, but not necessarily in the West Bank.
While the world mourns Gaza's plight, the West Bank has quietly turned itself around, and is actually witnessing some economic growth and development.
There was an op-ed in the WSJ a couple of days written by Michael Oren, the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., a former professor of mine. He's admittedly a biased source, but it is hard to argue with numbers such as 7% economic growth rate and a 24% average wage increase.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...70203863204574348292035667088.html
 
fridgmus
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:52 am



Quoting Us330 (Reply 4):
Maybe in Gaza, but not necessarily in the West Bank.
While the world mourns Gaza's plight, the West Bank has quietly turned itself around, and is actually witnessing some economic growth and development.

I'm really glad to hear that. I know that Hamas isn't much of a force in the West Bank. Now if some of this economic prosperity can grow in Gaza, then that will be the start of Peace there.

The Israeli's would do well to help promote that.
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:55 pm



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

Yes, it is a real bugger when the "baddies" turn out to be even vaguely related to partial goodies.  eek  The irony is that even the NGOs have sweet all chance of delivering much aid even if permitted to by GOI if Hamas do not agree.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping that if Hamas moderates and gets control of their militant personnel, Israel will back off and they can start down the road to Peace.

The Aung San / US swimmer episode may have relevance if the US revises its approaches to matters various. From what I read, the moderates in Hamas have sort of won, just with continued Israeli pressure the overall result is that Hamas is reluctant to allow much to emerge to show that moderation is the flavour of the month. They are on record as being willing to revise their founding document, just they want a quid pro the quo.

But keep shutting Hamas out, even without bombing them again, and they will give way to something more extreme. As Brutus is claimed to have said " There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries" And it cuts both ways as the man said giving his son a two edged sword!
 
futurepilot16
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:23 pm

Well this is one thing I actually applaud Hamas for. I too hope that they can develop into a legit organization where people can vote for their leaders instead of living in a military state. They've already proven to be fierce warriors, i'm sure they would get a lot of respect from Israel and the west if they take the next step to better themselves.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
The Aung San / US swimmer episode may have relevance if the US revises its approaches to matters various.

What exactly is the relevance?
The US senator "rescued" (at what cost?) the swimmer whose role in the entire incident is unclear to say the least. He could be anyone from a pure lunatic to - far more likely - someone (cue the easy release by the Burmese junta) who has been used/hired to create an excuse to nail Aung San Suu Kyi. He's off the hook and she's stuck with another 18 months of house arrest and the junta most likely got some sweet, behind-the-closed-doors deal
Yeah, great job Mr. Senator I hope you are proud of what you did.  Yeah sure

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 7):
i'm sure they would get a lot of respect from Israel and the west if they take the next step to better themselves.

Geez, why didn't we gave nazis a second chance to "better themselves"? Their social policies were pretty robust too...

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 7):
fierce warriors

Warriors do not hide among civilians and deliberately choose civilian targets. Terrorist cowards do.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:08 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):

At all times we must remember

Four legs good
Two legs bad.

Did you just turn into a Kiwi?  duck 

The thing is that Hamas has become much more moderate and they have stopped terrorist attacks for the most part. The terrorist attacks that occur in Hamas's name are typically a "Real IRA" sort of arrangement. They aren't sanctioned by Hamas. Hamas went from a group of angry men to a group of men who grew the hell up and realized that being angry is not very productive.

This new group seems like a new group of angry young men and we need to figure out what we can do in that part of the world to stop generating so many angry young men.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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avi
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:31 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Which might raise the question of why has Hamas used terrorist tactics?

Why don't you answer that?
Why don't you explain us (or at least me) why AFTERT Israel and the Palestinians signed the Oslo accord on September 93 and AFTER Israel started to withdraw from Gaza during winter 94, Hamas started to blow up themselves in Israel streets (The first one was on April 94)?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
The thing is that Hamas has become much more moderate and they have stopped terrorist attacks for the most part.

Hamas stopped terrorism? You got to be joking. We stooped them. We in very hard work which took long time, in many operations against them and with a great help of the security fence, we stooped them. They didn't stop anything. Just give them an opportunity to do something and they will.
They didn't stop firing rockets on us because they decided to stop firing, they stooped because we decided to put an end to that (way too late) and now they know they will pay for every single shot (something that didn't happen until January) so not only they don't fire, they operate against who – in rarely occasions now - does (like exactly this group who fired on us last week causing Hamas to pay the price).
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baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:14 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
occur in Hamas's name are typically a "Real IRA" sort of arrangement. They aren't sanctioned by Hamas.

And then of course in the IRA sequence you get the PIRA (or Provos) and now even a splinter from the who are still a problem, now ironically a problem just as much to the Provos as to the Brits as the Provos are in government. The two chuckles (McGuiness and Paisley) were an amazing example of what could be achieved by patient politics.

Just as JI in Indonesia has renounced violence and N Top still has a group blowing up hotels. Once a group adopts a violent policy, it is much more difficult to stop than it was to allow the conditions under which it started.

Quoting Avi (Reply 10):
and AFTER Israel started to withdraw from Gaza during winter 94

Interesting definition of withdrawal. There were still about 9k settlers and as Israel still controls all border crossing and the sea off Gaza it still controls Gaza. All care and no responsibility come to mind??

Israel knows that the settlements are a problem but continues with policies that perpetuate them.

It withdrew from Sinai and does it have problems with Egypt - no. It fails to withdraw from Palestine, it has problems. Surprise.
 
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:21 pm



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
Hamas knows what it needs to do: Renounce terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

LOL! They're kind of out of business if they do that....

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

There is no legitimizing terrorists. Let's stop the moral equivocation. It's bad enough we so cavalierly throw around the term "lesser of two evils" when we Americans go to the ballot box, but in this case, I refuse to accept evil of any flavor or shade.
 
avi
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:33 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Interesting definition of withdrawal. There were still about 9k settlers and as Israel still controls all border crossing and the sea off Gaza it still controls Gaza.

It was the first stage of many to come as agreed and signed with the Palestinians themselves but Hamas had problems with the peace process so when they saw it actually happening, they decided to "blow it up" by blowing us up and you are too afraid to admit that. You prefer to ignore that like the timetable was different.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
It withdrew from Sinai and does it have problems with Egypt - no. It fails to withdraw from Palestine, it has problems. Surprise.

We don't have problems with Egypt (actually there terror attacks on us in Egypt and from Egypt after we withdrew but the government does everything they can – and they can - to prevent such attacks) or Jordan (no withdrawal here) because the 2 countries actually meant to do what was signed, to honor the peace agreement. It never was the case with the Palestinians. Arafat said in a very clear way what he thought about the agreement the day after it was signed and stupid us continued anyway (and not even stooped after the beginning of the suicide attacks).

By the way, we completely withdrew from Lebanon. So what? Did that put an end to attacks on us? No. But the war in 2006 did. Not a single attack on us by Hezbollah since then.
Long live the B747
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:51 am

No Avi, I fell for your line the first time to discuss Hamas but not twice. This thread is not about Hamas per se, but about what might follow Hamas if some sort of accommodation is not made with them. Currently, it seem to be Israeli policy to undermine Hamas, an organization that it helped found. What sort of an organization does it expect to follow? Because the uprising gives a good idea of what might follow.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:26 am



Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
Hamas is by no means the most extreme of organizations. Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

-
The saying I think was created during the French Revolution "the revolution eats its own children". And also the Fundamentalists differ among themselves. President Mubarak reduced the power of the Fundamentalists by giving them some freedom, so that there in Egypt are now three or four fundamentalist parties fighting for their segment of voters. To have a counterweight to them, Mubarak gradually allowed extreme leftwing parties into parliamentary politics. And this was quite successfully copied in Algeria by Abdelaziz Bouteflika. You could see the difference also in Afghanistan where the "ancien regime" Taliban put the other also fairly fundamentalist movements, among them the one of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (of CIA/OBL fame) to the side. And now, among the various movements posing as "Taliban", Gulbuddin Hekmatyar is very important again.

And this was the reason for the swift and brutal action of the Hamas authorities. They realize the danger for them about a split among the fundamentalists. They in Gaza in the last parliamentary elections got a 60% majority, but that was a protest vote, and does not mean that they have a following of 50%plus, but their actual support base is at around 30%. If they were to allow another fundamentalist group to take hold, that base might even shrink to 25% or less. And all this is the reason why Hamas refuses even to talk about any new parliamentary elections as they know that any such elections would mean them to lose their leading role in Gaza. And they know that their approval for elections would mean to allow observers from the Arab League and the EU into Gaza where they had to give up their total rule they have right now.
 
BA
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:53 am

I wish Fatah and Hamas would agree to start working together despite their differences. As long as the Palestinians are divided into two camps, they will remain weak and make little progress, both politically and economically.

The two camps have very different ideologies, one being Nationalist and the other being Islamist, but common ground can be found. Both parties represent substantial portions of the Palestinian population, so one solution is perhaps a consociational government. This is how Lebanon gets by (tries to).

[Edited 2009-08-18 00:06:05]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:12 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Hamas is still a terrorist organization

-
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

-
The already have evolved into a "legitimate" political party. But have not become better in any way or in any respect.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
Hamas knows what it needs to do: recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

As Baroque says, they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

I'm hoping that if Hamas moderates and gets control of their militant personnel, Israel will back off and they can start down the road to Peace.

> Hamas does not know what to do, and refuses to accept the existence of Israel
> also Fatah, PFLP, PDFLP and el-Saika have social support networks
-- whenever the one of Hamas dominates in the Gaza Territory
> Hamas moderates are a minority and are dominated by their extreme leaders

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 5):
Now if some of this economic prosperity can grow in Gaza, then that will be the start of Peace there.

-
No economic progress is possible as long as the government is as extreme as Hamas. Just one aspect. Gaza would have a potential in beachside tourism, just as some other ugly cities in the Mediterranean. But tourists want to have alcoholic beverages at least inside the hotel compounds. And do not want to go to a place where there always is a likelihood for violence. And investors want a government to work with, while investors accept dictatorships, they cannot work with religious zealots. And forget the comparison with Iran. Iran has cultural treasures while Gaza has none. And Saudi Arabia does not allow tourism.

Quoting Slider (Reply 12):
There is no legitimizing terrorists

-
Hamas already is "legitimized", not least by international elections observers. They may be "terrorists" but they primarily now are a political party and the government party in the Gaza Territory.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:52 am



Quoting BA (Reply 16):
I wish Fatah and Hamas would agree to start working together despite their differences. As long as the Palestinians are divided into two camps, they will remain weak and make little progress, both politically and economically.

The two camps have very different ideologies, one being Nationalist and the other being Islamist, but common ground can be found. Both parties represent substantial portions of the Palestinian population, so one solution is perhaps a consociational government. This is how Lebanon gets by (tries to).

Working together for Fatah and the other PLO parties with a party who insists totally on its principles like
> not accepting Israel
> a total ban on alcoholic beverages
> a strict dress code for everybody
> social rules in fundamentalist way
> extreme restrictions against all sorts of entertainment
is not very easy to start.
-
In Lebanon, the only fundamentalist party, and one of the two Shi'ite parties, is opposed to the present government coalition, and even if getting into government it could only do so as a partner in a new coalition. As soon as Hamas is ready to get into new parliamentary elections, the doors will become open for the future.
 
us330
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:13 am



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 7):
I too hope that they can develop into a legit organization where people can vote for their leaders instead of living in a military state. They've already proven to be fierce warriors, i'm sure they would get a lot of respect from Israel and the west if they take the next step to better themselves.

"Fierce warriors"? This group targets civilians and unarmed innocents as much as they do the IDF. I don't call someone who specifically targets civilians and innocents a "fierce warrior," while hiding among their own civilian population--I call them a murderer and a coward.

The only way for Hamas to gain any sort of respect from Israel is to become truly revolutionary....abandon it's "exterminate the Israelis" rhetoric and become the first Palestinian organization with a decent amount of power to recognize the existence of Israel.
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:56 am

There is this document:
http://middleeast.about.com/b/2008/0...-teasing-recognition-of-israel.htm
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, in an interview published on April 2 in the Palestinian daily Al-Ayyam, focused attention again on an enigmatic Palestinian document that appears to recognize Israel's right to exist. "There is a Palestinian document," Meshaal said from his office in Damascus, "and in it all organizations say they agree to a state in the 1967 borders."

The 18-point National Conciliation Document, also known as the Prisoners' Document, was drafted on May 11, 2006 by Palestinian prisoners held in an Israeli jail. It was revised on June 28, 2006. It calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state along the pre-1967 Israeli borders --- in Gaza and the West Bank, with Jerusalem as its capital. It also calls for "the right of return for [Palestinian] refugees to their homes and properties from which they were evicted." Which is to say, return to Israel proper (or Palestine, depending on the perspective).

The document, signed by both Hamas and Fatah representatives, has been interpreted as a tacit recognition of Israel's right to exist.


While nobody talks to Hamas, the document could mean anything anyone chooses to think it might mean and neither Israel, the US nor the EU is in much of a position to argue.

However, again, this thread is NOT about what Hamas is, or is not, what Hamas has done or might do, but about what might follow Hamas if outside powers continue to work for the collapse of Hamas. If you want to rant about Hamas I suggest starting a thread entitled "Ranting about Hamas". Analysing Hamas is fine, but ranting is pretty pointless, we have had scads of threads on that during the last war.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:56 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Baroque, my ausie friend, dispite what the BBC, or any other news media says, Hamas is still a terrorist organization, according to the US, UK, EU, and Australia.

Or my US friend you could read a bit more carefully. I said:

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

Then Hamas needs to purge themselves of the extremists elements within their organization. All of us on this planet need to compromise with each other as we have no choice but to live together.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Which might raise the question of why has Hamas used terrorist tactics? This is seldom asked. Then again, I am sure some would argue that many western powers seldom ask why their armies are engaged in wars.

Yep, that is the best thing, just keep banging out heads against the walls. We just know we will feel the pain more if we stop.

Arguably declaring the whole of Hamas a terrorist organization was a fairly major mistake as it ruled offside the most effective social support organization that the Palestinians had as well as the terrorist side of the organization. Surely it is not beyond the wit of all these experienced diplomats to be able to cope with an organization that has more than one function? Or then again, perhaps it is.

Hamas has made great strides in the West Bank, that portion of Hamas, seems to have learned that violence begets violence. However their Hamas brothers in Gaza haven't or won't learn that same lesson. Maybe Hamas is splitting into two different groups, and the split is not complete, for whatever internal reason. But as long as the "Good Hamas" is tied to the "Bad Hamas", they will be overall considered a threat to the civilized world and a terrorist organization. The choice is really up to Hamas as a whole.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

Hamas knows what it needs to do: Renounce terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

I believe that is all Israel has ever asked oif them

Quoting Us330 (Reply 4):

Maybe in Gaza, but not necessarily in the West Bank.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
From what I read, the moderates in Hamas have sort of won, just with continued Israeli pressure the overall result is that Hamas is reluctant to allow much to emerge to show that moderation is the flavour of the month. They are on record as being willing to revise their founding document, just they want a quid pro the quo.

I have no problem with a quid pro quo with Hamas. They do deserve a chance to demonstrate their embrassing the civilized world, not attacking it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Hamas is still a terrorist organization

-
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world. While some believe that one persons terrorist is another persoins freedom fighter, that agument goes out the window with indiscriminate rockets fired into innocent civilian areas, and not at an opposing military force.
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:39 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Hamas is splitting into two different groups

I doubt if between us we have enough fingers to count the schisms let alone splits. Might manage if allowed to use all our toes as well.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Hamas is still a terrorist organization
-
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world.

I think MAF was probably meaning the internal perception of Hamas where any terrorist activities have generally been someone else as far as those carrying out the social program are concerned, and it was their social activities that won them the election that was denied. Not a good look by the way for the advocates of democracy: "You must vote". Soon turned to
"You voted for the wrong candidates, we refuse to recognise the results".

The west has nearly nowhere to go after tha debacle.

Basically the use of terrorist tactics by some Palestinian groups has now become an entrenched excuse for doing nothing except build more settlements. What lesson does that teach the Paliestinians? It certainly does not seem to have stopped terrorism, or so we are constantly told. But as the thread asks, do you want the Hamas style or do you want a more extreme style, just take your pick, because the choice is with you!!
 
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:55 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 19):
The only way for Hamas to gain any sort of respect from Israel is to become truly revolutionary....abandon it's "exterminate the Israelis" rhetoric and become the first Palestinian organization with a decent amount of power to recognize the existence of Israel.

-
they cannot do so for two reasons, one being their ideology, the other one being that the member organisations of the PLO, el-Fatah, el-Saika, PLA, PFLP and PDFLP (and some minor ones) already HAVE recognized the existence of Israel !

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Then Hamas needs to purge themselves of the extremists elements within their organization

-
These "elements" right now are the leadership of that organisation. How can you expect the leadership of an organisatio to "purge itself" of itself ??

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world

And I do NOT NOT NOT and NEVER accept your view that by being nicer to you or Israel makes Hamas "acceptable" !!!!  Angry  Angry


And what the "Western World" accepts or not is not the real thing, really not !  thumbsdown   thumbsdown 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
it was their social activities that won them the election

No, what won them the elections not just was some corruption inside the PA which was not more than usual in the Middle East but the lame and inactive ways of the PA in regard to almost everything. The social activities were almost irrevlevant in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, what mattered was that very many Palestinians missed action

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
build more settlements

this simply is support for extremism. But it unfortunately is not the first time that Israel supported extremism, in mistaken views of short-term gains.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:23 pm

What could follow Hamas? I think a fleet of Predators would be nice.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:00 am



Quoting Avi (Reply 10):

Hamas stopped terrorism? You got to be joking. We stooped them.

Then you admit that they have stopped terrorism if you stopped them.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):

Then Hamas needs to purge themselves of the extremists elements within their organization.

So does the GOP. In fact, the similarities are striking.

Quoting Avi (Reply 10):
They didn't stop firing rockets on us because they decided to stop firing, they stooped because we decided to put an end to that (way too late) and now they know they will pay for every single shot (something that didn't happen until January) so not only they don't fire, they operate against who – in rarely occasions now - does (like exactly this group who fired on us last week causing Hamas to pay the price).

I'm sorry, but I'm sick of it. I'm sick of being a Jew and the relative of Holocaust Survivors and then watching Israel, the country that was to be the new Homeland, a safe place for Jews, react by treating the Palestinians the same way that Jews have been treated through the stories told in Torah. They are thrown in ghettos. They live in the third world while Israelis live in a technological paradise just next door.

You didn't get them to stop shooting because you shot back. You cannot shot yourself to peace.

Those people over there are humans. Just like you. And they are very poor and very desperate. You win peace with schools and clinics. You educate them and teach them to be something so that they have something to live for. Education is what beats religious extremism, not fire falling from the sky. That causes religious extremism.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Mir
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:21 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):

Then Hamas needs to purge themselves of the extremists elements within their organization.

So does the GOP.

What organization doesn't need to purge themselves of their extremists?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:45 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
What organization doesn't need to purge themselves of their extremists?

-
The trouble is if the top-leadership is the extremists inside an organisation. No party leadership will purge a party of itself. In case of the GOP, it would mean that the basis of that party would replace much of its leadership by moderate people in the ways of Dwight D Eisenhower, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, and phase out the hardliners in the ways of Ronald Reagan and GW Bush. In short if they would return to normalcy. This however is hard to imagine in case of Hamas, a movement without a democratic basis and lead entirely and in an authoritarian way from the top.
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:21 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
This however is hard to imagine in case of Hamas, a movement without a democratic basis and lead entirely and in an authoritarian way from the top.

You could nearly start a useful thread on whether this structure just happened or was part of the original plan and we know who assisted with the original plan!!!
 
avi
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:28 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
I'm sorry, but I'm sick of it. I'm sick of being a Jew and the relative of Holocaust Survivors and then watching Israel, the country that was to be the new Homeland, a safe place for Jews, react by treating the Palestinians the same way that Jews have been treated through the stories told in Torah. They are thrown in ghettos. They live in the third world while Israelis live in a technological paradise just next door.

You didn't get them to stop shooting because you shot back. You cannot shot yourself to peace.

What the hell are you talking about?
When rockets were falling like rain on Sederot, our first priority should have been to stop it and not make peace (I doubt big time if the citizens of Sederot felt back then they were living in a "technological paradise").

Yes, the condition in the GS is horrible but allow me to remind you that Israel stooped to be responsible to the Palestinians lives in the GS in 94 (when Arafat came) and we completely left in 05. They decided to keep attacking Israel and not build their homeland. Fine. They have what they asked for. I don't see the simple man protesting against Hamas and its actions (although we all know how that one will end).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
You win peace with schools and clinics. You educate them and teach them to be something so that they have something to live for. Education is what beats religious extremism, not fire falling from the sky. That causes religious extremism.

Are you saying Israel should educate the children of Gaza? How are we suppose to do that?
Hamas is educating them and we all know to what (and this education will be the same no matter what Israel will do or won't do).
Long live the B747
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:19 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 29):
Are you saying Israel should educate the children of Gaza? How are we suppose to do that?
Hamas is educating them and we all know to what (and this education will be the same no matter what Israel will do or won't do).

Well it would be a smart idea if you do not want more generations of fundamentalists. Why do you suppose that Australia is busily constructing schools in Indonesia? If I recall correctly, Australia has never occupied Indonesia, but it feels that an alternative to the religious schools is a really good idea. Then again, we tend to have good relations with Indonesia. Note, they are Islamic schools, but not ones supported by Saudi Arabia which has been one of the problems in Central Jawa.

http://www.indonesia.embassy.gov.au/jakt/MR07_050.html
Indonesia and Australia Celebrate the Opening of 46 Islamic Schools

The Australian Ambassador to Indonesia, Bill Farmer, and the Secretary General of Ministry for Religious Affairs, Prof Bahrul Hayat, today attended a ceremony at MTs PSA Al Fauzan in Labruk Lor (Lumajang) to mark the opening of 46 Islamic junior secondary schools (Madrasah Tsanawiyah) that have been built with Australian assistance.

Construction of the 46 schools commenced in 2006 ready for the 2007 school year, which began last month. Work is due to commence in coming weeks on a further 275 Islamic schools that will open to students in mid 2008.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:21 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Hamas is splitting into two different groups

I doubt if between us we have enough fingers to count the schisms let alone splits. Might manage if allowed to use all our toes as well.

Correct, but I was being very general.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
I think MAF was probably meaning the internal perception of Hamas where any terrorist activities have generally been someone else as far as those carrying out the social program are concerned, and it was their social activities that won them the election that was denied. Not a good look by the way for the advocates of democracy: "You must vote". Soon turned to
"You voted for the wrong candidates, we refuse to recognise the results".

The west has nearly nowhere to go after tha debacle.

The west, mostly the US and EU have recongnised the elections by the Palistinians. What most of the west does not want to do is accept the new government with offers of aid to them as the use of that money could easily be used to fire more rockets against Israel. The west does not want to be part of that.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
But as the thread asks, do you want the Hamas style or do you want a more extreme style, just take your pick, because the choice is with you!!

No, my friend, the choice is not mine, or your. It is the Palistinians.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world

And I do NOT NOT NOT and NEVER accept your view that by being nicer to you or Israel makes Hamas "acceptable" !!!!


And what the "Western World" accepts or not is not the real thing, really not !

What are you smoking? Here is the entire quote from me, quoting you.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Hamas is still a terrorist organization

-
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world. While some believe that one persons terrorist is another persoins freedom fighter, that agument goes out the window with indiscriminate rockets fired into innocent civilian areas, and not at an opposing military force.

It is the terrorists actions and rockets that have me convinced that, at least in Gaza, Hamas has not changed.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
build more settlements

this simply is support for extremism. But it unfortunately is not the first time that Israel supported extremism, in mistaken views of short-term gains.

Israel has also given up concessions in an attempt for peace between the Jews and the Palistinians. Osrael has even given up land they paid for with blood in 1948, 1967, and 1973.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Quoting Avi (Reply 10):

Hamas stopped terrorism? You got to be joking. We stooped them.

Then you admit that they have stopped terrorism if you stopped them.

No, the terrorism has not been stopped. They will start a new cycle again, maybe during Yon Kepur this year, or Ramadan early next year.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):

Then Hamas needs to purge themselves of the extremists elements within their organization.

So does the GOP. In fact, the similarities are striking.

Oh really? Exactly how many people has the GOP shot? How many school buses have they blown up? Political debate between the GOP and the DNC makes for a very healthy political climate here in the US, can Hamas and the IDF say that?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
You didn't get them to stop shooting because you shot back. You cannot shot yourself to peace.



Quoting Avi (Reply 29):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
You win peace with schools and clinics. You educate them and teach them to be something so that they have something to live for. Education is what beats religious extremism, not fire falling from the sky. That causes religious extremism.

Are you saying Israel should educate the children of Gaza? How are we suppose to do that?
Hamas is educating them and we all know to what (and this education will be the same no matter what Israel will do or won't do).

Doc, you are smarter than that. In the US, you would be correct, but we are talking about a totally different culture here. To many Muslams (not all), education and religious education is the same thing.

Trying to get the Jews and Palistinians to live peacefully together, may not be impossible, but right now it is like trying mix oil and water. Or maybe gasoline and fire is a better comparison?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:33 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 26):

What organization doesn't need to purge themselves of their extremists?

The KKK. They can keep them.  Smile

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
Oh really? Exactly how many people has the GOP shot?

Well, there was that wedding party in Afghanistan that the GOP-run military at the time blew up. And a bunch of other random civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't even begin to include the people we all agree were our enemies. The GOP has also abducted, beaten, and tortured people, some of whom were U.S. Citizens who had done nothing wrong.

No, it wasn't the GOP, per se. But it was the U.S.A. when both the executive and legislative branches were GOP-controlled, which is analogous to Hamas being in charge of the Palestinian government.

So in just about any way you look at it, the GOP has been far more deadly than Hamas ever has been.

Quoting Avi (Reply 29):

Are you saying Israel should educate the children of Gaza? How are we suppose to do that?

By giving money to organizations like Red Cross and Red Crescent and supporting them. By working with the Palestinian Authority to help them construct schools and clinics.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):

No, the terrorism has not been stopped.



Quoting Avi (Reply 29):
I don't see the simple man protesting against Hamas and its actions (although we all know how that one will end).

No, you don't. Because the rockets that fell from the sky and killed his wife and children had Israeli flags painted on the side. And so ISRAEL killed his wife and kids. Not Hamas.

When Israel learns to stop shooting back, the militants will learn to stop shooting because they aren't getting the reaction they need to keep people hating Israel.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
avi
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:19 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
Well it would be a smart idea if you do not want more generations of fundamentalists. Why do you suppose that Australia is busily constructing schools in Indonesia? If I recall correctly, Australia has never occupied Indonesia, but it feels that an alternative to the religious schools is a really good idea. Then again, we tend to have good relations with Indonesia. Note, they are Islamic schools, but not ones supported by Saudi Arabia which has been one of the problems in Central Jawa.

What are you comparing here?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
No, the terrorism has not been stopped. They will start a new cycle again, maybe during Yon Kepur this year, or Ramadan early next year.

I'll send this important peace of intelligence to the authorities.
Seriously now, I'm not saying there will never be a terror attack on us again (no one can say that). BUT, you won't see again what there was here in 02-03 (more than 700 dead people).
You won't see again a rain of thousands of rockets on one of our civilian city without any real response (or at least until we will decide to stop it). These times ended.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
By giving money to organizations like Red Cross and Red Crescent and supporting them. By working with the Palestinian Authority to help them construct schools and clinics.

Palestinian Authority? What Palestinian Authority in Gaza? Where were you when Hamas did a very violent coup d'état against them in June 06 (single weekend) and kicked their asses out of there (I'm talking about those who stayed alive since many didn't). There is no Palestinian authority in the GS and everything that will be built there no matter by who, will "fall" into Hamas hands.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
When Israel learns to stop shooting back, the militants will learn to stop shooting because they aren't getting the reaction they need to keep people hating Israel.

Do you have any idea how much time we waited and did nothing before we put an end to that? Way too long.
In this area if you don't do anything in return, you are not strong, you are weak, you are vulnerable, you will get hit (they won't stop). Only when you make clear that you will response to anything without proportion (I "love" that word), you will have the quiet you want. You can ask confirmation from both Hamas and Hezbollah for that.
Long live the B747
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:32 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 33):

Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
Well it would be a smart idea if you do not want more generations of fundamentalists. Why do you suppose that Australia is busily constructing schools in Indonesia? If I recall correctly, Australia has never occupied Indonesia, but it feels that an alternative to the religious schools is a really good idea. Then again, we tend to have good relations with Indonesia. Note, they are Islamic schools, but not ones supported by Saudi Arabia which has been one of the problems in Central Jawa.

What are you comparing here?

Positive and negative approaches to a problem??

Remember the Bali I bombs killed just over 200 folk, mostly Indonesians but a high number of Australians too. We dont think it is a good idea to bomb E Jawa but we do think it is a good idea to build schools so the next generation will not be attracted to terrorism.
 
avi
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:57 pm

Again, what are you comparing here?

Beside the fact that the bombing in Bali was an isolated attack and not something that happens several time a day, every day for years, it didn't happen by the government. Right?
Don't you understand it is different in Gaza?
The terror group who did the attack in Bali doesn't control the schools over there. Hamas does! Nothing will happen in Gaza without Hamas approval and they will approve only what fits to their ideology and Israel existence is not in that ideology.
Long live the B747
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:50 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
This however is hard to imagine in case of Hamas, a movement without a democratic basis and lead entirely and in an authoritarian way from the top.

You could nearly start a useful thread on whether this structure just happened or was part of the original plan and we know who assisted with the original plan!!!

I never considered Mossad or other secret services as democratically minded institutions Big grin

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

What are you smoking?



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
It is the terrorists actions and rockets that have me convinced that, at least in Gaza, Hamas has not changed.

And here you go again !! Giving major importance to some side aspects and completely ignoring the main thing. Sounds as if you, in case Hamas gave up their anti Israeli stances and actions, would accept them.

While the real aspects, to say it again, are that Hamas is
an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:10 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
Oh really? Exactly how many people has the GOP shot?

Well, there was that wedding party in Afghanistan that the GOP-run military at the time blew up. And a bunch of other random civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't even begin to include the people we all agree were our enemies. The GOP has also abducted, beaten, and tortured people, some of whom were U.S. Citizens who had done nothing wrong.

No, it wasn't the GOP, per se. But it was the U.S.A

Correct, it was't the GOP, or DNC (also a part of Congress at that time). Unfortunate mistakes happen in wars. The US does try to minimumize that as much as possible, but these types of unfortunate events will happen again. Unlike the other side (yeah, the bad guys) who target innocent civilians at will. BTW, neither the GOP, nor DNC, runs the military, the sitting President does. So any unfortunate accidents that happen between now and when Obama leaves office will be blood on his hands, according to your statement, right?

Also don't forget about Teddy Kennedy, who took his girlfriend staffer for a swim with his Oldsmobile sometime in July 1969. What was the name of that place, and her name? Oh yeah, it was on Chappaquiddick Island, Massachusetts and her name was Mary Jo Kopechne. She wasn't shot, and that wasn't a terrorist event, unless you consider her reactions inside the car as it plummited into the water.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Quoting Avi (Reply 29):

Are you saying Israel should educate the children of Gaza? How are we suppose to do that?

By giving money to organizations like Red Cross and Red Crescent and supporting them.

The Red Cross, you have got to be kidding. You do know the Red Cross accepts donations, buys things needed at the disaster, then will sell those things to the people in need. They did that even in New Orleans.

I give to the Salvation Army, who actually gives out to those in need, without charge.

Quoting Avi (Reply 33):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
No, the terrorism has not been stopped. They will start a new cycle again, maybe during Yon Kepur this year, or Ramadan early next year.

I'll send this important peace of intelligence to the authorities.
Seriously now, I'm not saying there will never be a terror attack on us again (no one can say that). BUT, you won't see again what there was here in 02-03 (more than 700 dead people).

I hope you are right, my friend. I just don't trust any terrorist.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
It is the terrorists actions and rockets that have me convinced that, at least in Gaza, Hamas has not changed.

And here you go again !! Giving major importance to some side aspects and completely ignoring the main thing. Sounds as if you, in case Hamas gave up their anti Israeli stances and actions, would accept them.

While the real aspects, to say it again, are that Hamas is
an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom

If Hamas changed today, I would welcome them into the civilized world, but still keep a sharp eye on them too. I just don't see that a realistict possibility. When they begin shooting rockets again they will show they will never change. Notice I did not say "if"?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):

I give to the Salvation Army, who actually gives out to those in need, without charge.

The same Salvation Army that inexplicably came out with a position statement against gay marriage, rather than shutting up about it and just helping those in need?

That was the day I stopped donating to them. Pity they didn't just stick to their mission, but had to get high and mighty about it.

Quoting Avi (Reply 35):
Nothing will happen in Gaza without Hamas approval and they will approve only what fits to their ideology and Israel existence is not in that ideology.

And nothing will happen in Israel without Israeli approval. The children in Israel are taught only what fits Israeli ideology.

Part of that ideology is that "Palestine" does not exist. And I find that disgusting because if Palestinians aren't from Palestine and they aren't from Israel, then where are they from?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:25 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):

I give to the Salvation Army, who actually gives out to those in need, without charge.

The same Salvation Army that inexplicably came out with a position statement against gay marriage



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
That was the day I stopped donating to them.

You are free to donate to which ever charity you choose. I happen to agree with the Salvation Army, who, BTW is a christen based group, and have the same position against gay marrage.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
Part of that ideology is that "Palestine" does not exist. And I find that disgusting because if Palestinians aren't from Palestine and they aren't from Israel, then where are they from?

The historic country of "Palestine" extended along the Med. from inside Egypt (almost to the Nile river delta) to inside present day Turkey. It also extended west beyond the Jorden River. Today, that includes parts or all of Egypt, Sini, Gaza, Israel, Golan heights, Lebenon, Syria, Jorden, and parts of Turkey.

That was only 2,500 years ago. They lost all that land some 2,300 years ago. The Palestinians only occupied the modern day country of Israel for less than 200 years. Why, becaues the Palestinians were traditionally a wandering group.

Those areas today have many more Arabs living in them than Jews in Israel. Why don't the Arabs ever get asked to give land back to the Palestinians? Why are only the Jews demanded to conceed their country?

Israel, of the other hand, and you probibly know this better than I do, is the land promised by God to the Jews more than 5,000 years ago. Israel is the true traditional home of the Jews.

The Palestinians only controlled what is modern day Israel for 400 years, or so in the last 5,000 years.
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:33 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
Why, becaues the Palestinians were traditionally a wandering group.

Oh puleeeeees. Where do you get this stuff?

Oh, Yahoo answers, why did I not guess!! Even the spelling is appalling let alone the information.

Most Palestinians were not nomadic. The Bedouin were, but they were a minority.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:45 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
If Hamas changed today, I would welcome them into the civilized world, but still keep a sharp eye on them too. I just don't see that a realistict possibility. When they begin shooting rockets again they will show they will never change. Notice I did not say "if"?

A) I would not be welcoming to them if they just "changed" their attitudes and methods towards Israel without changing the real things. I will "welcome" them into the modern world as soon as they mellow their stances in the aspects I mentioned. At the other hand, they hardly can separate different aspects in a surgical way. Everything goes together. I simply opposed your giving priority to their stance on Israel and the minor things you perceive as "terrorism"
B) their shooting rockets is not the reason for the major aspects I mentioned but a result of those major aspects. To quote President Sadat "the glorification of violence is a danger to ...... men as it leaves free course to the lowest instincts of men" .

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
The historic country of "Palestine" extended

a "historic country of Palestine" never existed. What you describe is the Levantine coastline. Palestine was a geographical area without cut borders. "Palestinians" before 1920 were "Arabs in Palestine" just as Algerians were "Arabs in Algeria" . And for centuries before 1920, Palestine was part of Turkish Syria, which included what now are Jordan, Israel-Palestine, Syria, Lebanon and Kylika (part of the Republic of Turkey, as based on the Von-der-Goltz line of 1917 ) .

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
The Palestinians only occupied the modern day country of Israel for less than 200 years. Why, becaues the Palestinians were traditionally a wandering group.

The "Palestinians" are what became of people along the Levantine coastline. If you are Christian, study the Bible and check where the Jews were in all these times. Sometimes as rulers, sometimes as servants, often in between, just as other people of that region, neither better nor worse. Some of the ancestors of modern-day "Palestinians" were wandering groups, other were city-dwellers for ages. Just imagine that Damascus is roughly 7000 years (plus) old and Aleppo more than 8000 years. "Palestinians" never "occupied" any country. They simply lived there, I mean somewhere between Cairo and Damascus for ages. And the area, whenever under Turkish rule since roughly 1300AD was inhabited by people who since about 800AD saw themselves as "Arabs".

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
Why don't the Arabs ever get asked to give land back to the Palestinians? Why are only the Jews demanded to conceed their country?

A) then, Israel had to give "land back" to modern day Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians who also inhabited parts of "Palestine-Israel". B) Jews are not demanded to conceed their country. The are just demanded to give up settlements in the Palestinian territories. Nobody is demanding of them to conceed any square-meter of their country. GazaTerritory, EastJerusalem and WestBank are NOT "their country".

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
Israel is the true traditional home of the Jews.

-
But "Israel" does not include GazaTerritory, EastJerusalem and WestBank. And "traditional" is misleading, as the Jews, traditionally a wandering group, only for short periods controlled and occupied the territories of Palestine-Israel

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
The Palestinians only controlled what is modern day Israel for 400 years, or so in the last 5,000 years.

Hardly. As the term "Palestinians" only started in the 20th Century. Modern day Israel-Palestine however was inhabited by Arabs between 800AD and the 20th Century, which means more than a millenia and which means the right of usage and customs

And the Jews in the 5000 years you mentioned only for historically short periods controlled some areas of that whole area, as the Jewish kingdoms only occupied small parts of the area. Again, look it up in the Bible.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
Most Palestinians were not nomadic. The Bedouin were, but they were a minority.

While Ibrahim, oh sorry, Abraham I mean, WAS a bedouin ! Cheers to our bedouins !
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:41 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):

Israel, of the other hand, and you probibly know this better than I do, is the land promised by God to the Jews more than 5,000 years ago. Israel is the true traditional home of the Jews.

I'm sorry, but promises made by fictional deities should not factor into international policy. The fictional deities have this annoying habit of never being capable of wrong, and yet they never seem to agree with each-other.

By your argument, we should release the U.S.A. to the native Americans and return to our countries of origin. That makes no sense. Palestinians were there, they have a right to a nationality, and they have a right to humanity. Israel has attempted to deny them of both.

It makes me disgusted and ashamed of my heritage.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:03 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
Most Palestinians were not nomadic. The Bedouin were, but they were a minority.

While Ibrahim, oh sorry, Abraham I mean, WAS a bedouin ! Cheers to our bedouins !

Oh yes, I forgot this rather awkward point that is better than most in terms of real history. But then Abe might have been an Iraqi, sooooo!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
I'm sorry, but promises made by fictional deities should not factor into international policy.

Must be about time for the Palestinians to make a miraculous discovery in one of those caves up in the limestone country!!!!

Getting back to MAFs points, it is rather amazing that the rocketing and bombing habits of Hamas attract all the attention rather than the philosophy behind these responses to pressure. It is a bit like the argument I had with Avi over schooling for Palestinians. It does tend to suggest that the last thing Israel as an entity wants (not MANY MANY of its population) is a solution to these problems. Perhaps "Quarrel and conquer" should be the national motto.

Take the advice of the Jesuits and catch them early!!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:15 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
then Abe might have been an Iraqi, sooooo!

Oh sure he was an Iraqi ! The reason why Mr Ben Gurion, possibly after a bit of "spirit" spoke about an "Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates" --- which by some propaganda people was taken very literally ! I rather would have enquired about the name of his favourite Whiskey !
 
baroque
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RE: What Could Follow Hamas

Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:18 pm

Apropos of MAFs comments

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2663450.htm

When Hamas won power in the Gaza Strip in elections in 2007, many were concerned that political legitimacy had been given to extremists. But for some, Hamas has been far too moderate. Now it has launched what is being called a virtue campaign aimed at imposing a stricter Muslim lifestyle on the territory's inhabitants.

Vodcast available, transcript will follow in a few hours.

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