MD11Engineer
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German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:42 pm

In about 4 weeks there will be the elections for the German federal parliament and the federal government.
So far I´ve got no idea who to vote for.
So far I´ve been supporting the Social Democrats (SPD), who used to be centrist to a bit left of center and are the oldest democratic party in Germany, dating back to the mid 19th century. They used to be a working class party with traditional values, a fair salary for a good day´s work, with emphasis on working ethics and had such illustrious figures like Willy Brandt, Herbert Wehner, Helmut Schmidt, Kurt Schuhmacher and Anne-Marie Renger. But since about 30 years they have been taken over by politologists and other wannabe academics and have been drifting towards the left to compete with parties like the populist Linkspartei.
The Linkspartei is the old East German communist party in slightly modified form. like the ratcatcher of Hamelin they try to get the votes of the unemployed and disappointed by offering populist programmes (increasing dole money, reducing weekly working hours at full pay, lowering the retirement age at full pension etc.) without being able to tell who is supposed to pay for it. They vaguely speak about increasing taxes for companies and "wealthy" people (as one of the better earning blue collar workers am I considered to be "wealthy" and to pay more tax?).

The liberal (or Libertarian in American parlance), the FDP, is usually centrist, but has two wings: One wing represents big business and is currently running the party and sees freedom mostly in reducing obstacles (taxes, environmental and labour regulations, social security contributions) for business owners, while the other, now unfortunately less powerfull, wing used to interpret libertarian as personal freedom. I like the social freedom part of their programme, but find their economical programme a bit cynical and too much in favour of big business.

The Christian-Democrats (CDU) and their Bavarian sister party CSU are the center to right party on Germany. they are (usually) finacially conservative, but also socially conservative (especially the Bavarians). While I like their finacial conservatism I don´t like the law-and-order, everything-must-be-controlled by the police approach of their minister of the interior Schäuble. The current chancellor is a member of this party and pretty much represents the centrist wing. Unfortunately on the right wing, there are already interactions with rightwing fringe parties like the Republikaner and the Neo-Nazi NPD. One thing in favour of the conservatives is their positive attitude towards nuclear energy (which they share with the Liberals), all other parties are strictly opposed to nuclear power. I wonder how they want to support our energy needs in future, especially if coal fired powerstations will be shut down due to CO2.

The last serious party in Germany are the Greens. In my profession to vote for the Greens would be suicide, given their attitude towards aviation.

Jan
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LTU932
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:15 am

I was unable to register in time because my passport expired and I needed to get that settled first. However, here's my review of the parties:

SPD: They are turning more and more socialist. It's only a matter of time until they want to form a coalition with the Linkspartei. They have thrown away their ideals of social-democracy to become more socialistic and leftist. Furthermore, they've become known for their infighting, and it's still going on today. That infighting also contributed in part to the fall of Helmut Schmidt (who IMO is one of the few politicians left on this worth that are worth admiring and respecting), and it's still going on today (e.g. the Andrea Ypsilanti fiasco, the Wolfgang Clement issue, etc.).

Linkspartei: To me, they're still the SED. Therefore, they're still the communist party that oppressed over 20 mio. citizens in the DDR. It's a mistery as to why they keep getting elected.

FDP: I don't trust Guido Westerwelle a single bit, especially since they do support big business. I even tend to call the FDP "Flatternde Deutsche Partei" because of how erratic their election results tend to be. That being said, it's likely that they will reach at least 15%, which means that the odds of them getting to power are really good.

Bündnis '90/Die Grüne: Never in hell will I vote for the treehuggers! Environmental consciousness is fine with me, but not the fanatism they try to shove down our throats!

CDU: They're the better of all the evils in politics at this time. The only bad thing about them is the CSU, which has even openly called for a general toll system on the Autobahn, which many Germans reject. Therefore, I prefer 4 more years of Angie, just to avoid the SPD from getting back to power. Also, I hope that for all our sakes, the CSU doesn't get the Ministry of Transportation, because otherwise they will press through their plans for tolls for everyone on the Autobahn.
 
Klaus
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:59 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
So far I´ve been supporting the Social Democrats (SPD), who used to be centrist to a bit left of center and are the oldest democratic party in Germany, dating back to the mid 19th century. They used to be a working class party with traditional values, a fair salary for a good day´s work, with emphasis on working ethics and had such illustrious figures like Willy Brandt, Herbert Wehner, Helmut Schmidt, Kurt Schuhmacher and Anne-Marie Renger. But since about 30 years they have been taken over by politologists and other wannabe academics and have been drifting towards the left to compete with parties like the populist Linkspartei.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
SPD: They are turning more and more socialist. It's only a matter of time until they want to form a coalition with the Linkspartei. They have thrown away their ideals of social-democracy to become more socialistic and leftist.

I don't know what your respective baseline for your comparisons is, but as far as I can see the SPD has largely abandoned its formerly left-of-center core. Agenda 2010 has done great damage to its credibility as a genuine representative of workers and lower-income employees.

If they hadn't abandoned this field, the Linkspartei would never have been able to seize the opportunity and basically inherit this segment of the political spectrum without the SPD even bothering to fight for it.

Today, the SPD has become fuzzy and amorphous, without any credible conceptual center of their own.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
One thing in favour of the conservatives is their positive attitude towards nuclear energy (which they share with the Liberals), all other parties are strictly opposed to nuclear power. I wonder how they want to support our energy needs in future, especially if coal fired powerstations will be shut down due to CO2.

The greens have long pushed for renewable energy and increased efficiency such as hybrid heating / electricity generation.

With the nuclear industry being in shambles and patently incapable of contributing anything but jacked-up electricity prices, a growing and as yet still completely unresolved waste problem and a jawdropping level of incompetence and unreliability in their extremely safety-sensitive field, nothing has done more damage to our energy supply perspective than the total fixation on nuclear energy by especially the right (CDU/CSU/FDP).

Had we invested only a fraction of the gigantic public subsidies not in the shoddily maintained reactors but in actual sustainable energy infrastructure, we could have been well on our way to substantially reduced emissions and much lower costs than we have to pay for the expensive reactors now.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
Bündnis '90/Die Grüne: Never in hell will I vote for the treehuggers! Environmental consciousness is fine with me, but not the fanatism they try to shove down our throats!

"Fanatism"? I guess you've missed a few things since the early 1980s...  mischievous 

Given the sorry state of the SPD, the still rather strong smell emanating from the Linkspartei, the reactionary and backwards-oriented positions of the christian democrats, the unapologetic lobby-cuddling of the FDP and the absence of any other alternatives, the Greens currently provide the most plausible proposal for a more sustainable development on a wide range of issues in my view.

Looking back, they've had a pretty good track record of being right about many issues (of course I have to exclude their lunatic fringe in this, not least since most of them – Jutta Dithfurt comes to mind – have been squeezed out in the meantime).

It is highly unlikely they will end up in the next government, but that is definitely no sufficient reason to vote black or red.
 
racko
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:05 am

CDU: With Schäuble and Von der Leyen absolutely no option for me. Especially Von der Leyen using a "caring mother" mask to hide her evil agenda is just unacceptable. Out.

SPD: They voted with the CDU on Vorratsdatenspeicherung and internet censorship. Plus I really can't think of anything they actually stand for. Out.

FDP: They have a history of just not really giving a damn about policies as long as they get power. They sure as hell won't care how much closer the Van der Leyen-gang will get us to a new Stasi. Out.

Linke: Yeah, right...Out.

Greens: Disagree with them on some economic issues, absolutely agree with their positions on civil rights. Plus they have at least a few MPs who I know from first hand expierence genuinely care about the issues, even if I disagree with them. That's at least something.

Piraten: When it comes to the issues, I agree with them the most. However, their chances of actually getting above 5% are tiny, so I risk my vote not acutally changing anything.

So at the end of the day it will come down to how much the greens annoy me until election day. If they keep it down they'll get my vote, otherwise I'll go with the Piraten.

[Edited 2009-08-23 18:07:06]
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:25 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
I don't know what your respective baseline for your comparisons is, but as far as I can see the SPD has largely abandoned its formerly left-of-center core. Agenda 2010 has done great damage to its credibility as a genuine representative of workers and lower-income employees.

If they hadn't abandoned this field, the Linkspartei would never have been able to seize the opportunity and basically inherit this segment of the political spectrum without the SPD even bothering to fight for it.

Today, the SPD has become fuzzy and amorphous, without any credible conceptual center of their own.

But what about their "Linkskurs" when Frau Yps was running for Ministerpräsident in Hessen? Anyway, I hope we can agree that the SPD has a big tendency for infighting.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:51 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
drifting towards the left

I had the impression that the SPD under Schröder went to almost right-of-centre positions, and since those times is on the march back to a more leftist position again. The growth of the Linkspartei apparently was the result of the SPD leaving a vast space to their left. And Oscar Lafontaine and his colleagues from the former DDR/GDR took full use of the vacuum.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
It's only a matter of time until they want to form a coalition with the Linkspartei. They have thrown away their ideals of social-democracy to become more socialistic and leftist.

If you look back into West European history you can see that the Linkspartei has positions similar to the Social Democratic parties of Scandinavia in the 1960ies, the Socialist Party of France in the 1960ies and 70ies and even 80ies, and the preTonyBlair Labour Party in Britain. An SPD/Linkspartei coalition might be a real option for Germany even if it for many Germans apparently is taboo in a way.
 
Rara
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:32 pm

SPD.

In the last 10 years, this country has changed for the better. Our economy is much more dynamic, we can compete on the world market again, we are a more modern and open society, we realize we have loads to do for the integration of immigrants instead of just ignoring the issue, we're well on the way towards a more sustainable livestyle. The SPD has been the driving factor behind most of these developments - and it has done so under great inner and outer pressure. After a weak start, the Schröder government has got its act together, reformed the social systems - again, against enormous opposition - and kept us out of Iraq In the current cabinet, the CDU/CSU has had almost zero vision and low-quality personnel - with the exception of the chancellor, perhaps Mrs von der Leyen and, newly so, Mr zu Guttenberg. Almost anything else was stemmed by the SPD really.

In my view, the deserve much better than the meagre 20% they're getting in the polls. I'm going to vote for them, even though I sort of hope not to see them in the next government. It would further erode their base and make way for the small opposition parties, which I believe we don't really need.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
The last serious party in Germany are the Greens. In my profession to vote for the Greens would be suicide, given their attitude towards aviation.

Isn't that a bit dramatic? In seven years of a Green coalition government, aviation has fared alright, hasn't it.
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Klaus
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
I had the impression that the SPD under Schröder went to almost right-of-centre positions, and since those times is on the march back to a more leftist position again. The growth of the Linkspartei apparently was the result of the SPD leaving a vast space to their left. And Oscar Lafontaine and his colleagues from the former DDR/GDR took full use of the vacuum.

Exactly.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
If you look back into West European history you can see that the Linkspartei has positions similar to the Social Democratic parties of Scandinavia in the 1960ies, the Socialist Party of France in the 1960ies and 70ies and even 80ies, and the preTonyBlair Labour Party in Britain. An SPD/Linkspartei coalition might be a real option for Germany even if it for many Germans apparently is taboo in a way.

The problem with the Linkspartei is just that they have extremely little substance and run a thoroughly populist platform instead.

Of course their SED past is a huge millstone around their neck, but their primary problem is that they will get only protest votes as long as they don't bother to confront the inevitable complexities of reality in any halfway credible way.

Even the established parties have a hard enough time with that – there's no need for another one which is completely detached from reality.
 
TransIsland
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:53 pm

Knowing the Buergeramt Steglitz-Zehlendorf (Berlin) and their awful habit of using PIN AG instead of Deutsche Post to mail out absentee ballots, I will get mine a few weeks after the elections anyway, so I don't have to worry about which one of these useless parties to vote for.

At least in both the last national election as well as the European election, the tardiness of the Buergeramt/postal service robbed me of my right to vote.
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globeex
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:03 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):

I had the impression that the SPD under Schröder went to almost right-of-centre positions

Well, I agree. For me Schröder was more CDU than SPD.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
And Oscar Lafontaine and his colleagues from the former DDR/GDR took full use of the vacuum.

Hm, well Lafontaine is just a populist in my eyes. First of all, most of the programm of the Linkspartei is not to be realised if they would gain power, and they know it. In fact, they don't even have interest in ruling Germany, because they know that it would be a total fiasco, as they couldn't hold 90% of what they promise. Sometimes, when reading remarks made by Lafontaine you don't know if they were made by him or a politican of the NPD (national extremists). In addition I really can't understand how a person of the lowclass can actually pay him any credibility. I mean, he is one of the wealthy politicians in German with a huge mansion in Saarbrücken and on Ibiza (or Mallorca or whereever  Wink).

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
An SPD/Linkspartei coalition might be a real option for Germany even if it for many Germans apparently is taboo in a way.

See above, I'm telling you. The Linkspartei doesn't have any interest in ruling Germany. In addition, Die Grünen will never work together with the Linkspartei.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
But what about their "Linkskurs" when Frau Yps was running for Ministerpräsident in Hessen? Anyway, I hope we can agree that the SPD has a big tendency for infighting.

Yes (Richie) we can!  Wink

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
Bündnis '90/Die Grüne: Never in hell will I vote for the treehuggers! Environmental consciousness is fine with me, but not the fanatism they try to shove down our throats!

I tend to disagree here. I wouldn't vote for them neither, still many tend to forget, that actually in many points they really are very conservative (even though their leaders don't want to show it). The Greens actually have the problem that most parties, even the CDU CSU step in for the same nowadays as they do (except atomic powerplants) when it comes to energy. You have to keep in mind that Die Grünen of the 1970-80 are the academics of today. Die Grünen are the party with the highest average income among their voters in Germany. That's why the last male CDU chancellor (Schröder, yes, I know, I know  Wink) was able to get Hartz 4 through with the support of Die Grünen. Except their approache of the enviroment they are more conservative than the FDP (even though, again, they don't want to show it).

Quoting Racko (Reply 3):

Piraten: When it comes to the issues, I agree with them the most. However, their chances of actually getting above 5% are tiny, so I risk my vote not acutally changing anything.

Well, Unfortunately they are not a credible party to me (not yet aa least). Nonetheless, I would say, that they step in for the interest of most for the people of my generation (18-30 years). A poll among the people of StudiVZ (the German social network for university students, similar to Facebook) showed that if the federal parliament would be elected by German (university) students the pirate party would be second after the CDU/CSU in front of the SPD, FDP, Grünen and Linkspartei.
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:05 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
An SPD/Linkspartei coalition might be a real option for Germany even if it for many Germans apparently is taboo in a way.

There's no way in hell the people would be for a coalition with a party that had its "citizens" shot at the border just because they pursued freedom. For all intents and purposes, the name Linkspartei is simply a different name for what was the SED, the the result of the forced merger of the Eastern SPD and KPD from the 1940's, which ruled the DDR with an iron fist until its power collapsed in 1989. As Klaus said, they run on a populistic platform and have only little substance at most. The SED is dangerous. The only reason why it gets votes is for protest reasons, and IMO also because of those people who want to relive a misguided "Ostalgie" and wish themselves the old regime back, just because of its social policies, while ignoring the fact that under SED rules, civil liberties were non-existent, people were spied by even their own neighbours, who were very likely party members, or simply STASI IMs (Inoffizielle Mitarbeiter, Unofficial Collaborators).

As for the SPD, they went a very neoliberal course under Schröder, which may have partly benefited the economy but did absolutely nothing to reduce the amount of unemployed. Even after the Agenda 2010 was introduced, the changes weren't becoming evident until Angie took over and inherited some of Schröder's policies that were eventually continued. Nowadays, the SPD is going a more leftist approach in certain regions (remember the fiasco under Andrea Yps in Hessen, who blatantly broke her promise of not even considering collaboration with the SED), and even Steinmeier himself did not rule out a coalition with the SED. The SPD as a whole is torn apart between those who still represent the old base (which are becoming less) that still believes in the ideals adopted by the SPD after the war, those who want a continuation of Schröder's neoliberal policies, and those who want to cooperate with the communists and represent the ultraleft wing.

The SPD is what we'd call a "Hühnerhaufen". There's no clear policy, too much confusion on which way they want to go politically, too many problems with people they want to expell from the party for speaking up (like the four members of the Hessian SPD who wanted to vote against Ypsilanti in the parliamentary confirmation vote), and those little scandals (e.g. Ulla Schmidt using a government vehicle for private purposes, aka the Dienstwagenaffäre) aren't helping either. Sure, CDU/CSU isn't exactly the best option either, but it's the better of these two evils. My prediction: The SPD could slip well below the 20% line by the time the first polls are released in the elections. Anything over 25% would be a miracle. I say the SPD won't get more than 16%, while CDU/CSU and FDP should get a very comfortable margin for a coalition.
 
globeex
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:17 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
The problem with the Linkspartei is just that they have extremely little substance and run a thoroughly populist platform instead.

Couldn't have said it better.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
there's no need for another one which is completely detached from reality.

Spot on. In my eyes the Links Partei is a huge burden for Germany and the years to come. Not even because of they politics (If you call it that). But because they make it really hard for coalitions to form. So we might see a lot of governments in the future who consist of three rather than two parties and this will make it very hard to follow a straight course (As we say in Germany, "Viele Köche ruinieren den Brei")

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
and even Steinmeier himself did not rule out a coalition with the SED.

HAHA! I just like how you keep saying SED. But in my eyes they are just that as well.

Quoting Rara (Reply 6):

In my view, the deserve much better than the meagre 20% they're getting in the polls.

Well, they deserved much better than this. Not right now though. They do have the potential of more obviously, but not right now, when looking at how this party is run.
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OHLHD
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:29 pm

What are your opinions towards Steinmeier?


I saw a program on ARD about him promising to send money and technology to various parts of the Gaza stripe but until today none of the investments were done. When asked he commented very harsh: No Comment!
 
HT
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:06 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
German Federal Election Whom To Vote For? 

Find out which party best suits your general preferences; www.wahl-o-mat.de starts 04-SEP-2009
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
pelican
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:13 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
Had we invested only a fraction of the gigantic public subsidies not in the shoddily maintained reactors but in actual sustainable energy infrastructure, we could have been well on our way to substantially reduced emissions and much lower costs than we have to pay for the expensive reactors now.

Two objections:
1. Shoddily maintained reactors? Do you have any facts to back that? Or is it just propaganda?
2. We subsidise renewable energy infrastructure with huge sums (and as always subsidies come along with great wastages.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Law (English)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erneuerbare-Energien-Gesetz (German)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft-W%C3%A4rme-Kopplungsgesetz (German)
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/0,1518,644644,00.html (German)
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,543769,00.html (German)

pelican
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:00 pm



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 11):
I just like how you keep saying SED.

Because they still are. Formally, the SED never dissolved, they simply changed names and for some reason, those who vote for them have forgotten that fact. They still have people in their party that were involved in the communist era (e.g. Hans Modrow, former first Secretary of the Party in Dresden, who was about to order troops during a protest in Dresden to use violence against the protesters, he's still a party member). Even if they did kick out Erich Honecker and Willi Stoph out of the party, that doesn't change the fact that the SED still exists, although under a different name, hence why I continue to refer to the Linkspartei as SED or Die Linke.SED, or just as "the so-called Linkspartei".
 
Klaus
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:54 am



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 11):
Spot on. In my eyes the Links Partei is a huge burden for Germany and the years to come. Not even because of they politics (If you call it that). But because they make it really hard for coalitions to form.

It may not be a bad thing if they force the still largely paralyzed SPD to actually fight for the left-of-center part of the spectrum again.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 14):
Two objections:
1. Shoddily maintained reactors? Do you have any facts to back that? Or is it just propaganda?

Just look at the disastrous management of the Krümmel reactor or at nearly any other. The owners consistently show a disturbing lack of commitment to security and a lack of professionalism that is quite simply unacceptable.

By actual application of the regulating laws we would not have any reactors running any more today.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 14):
2. We subsidise renewable energy infrastructure with huge sums (and as always subsidies come along with great wastages.)

Peanuts compared to the gigantic public subsidies for the nuclear industry already paid and yet to be paid through centuries.

And that is fully discounting the unresolved problems of limited supply of nuclear fuel and the rapidly growing amount of toxic nuclear waste which have no parallel with renewable energy.

Even just requiring the operators to buy actual risk insurance would immediately put them out of business. In reality this insurance does not exist – we all just have to live with their risks and foot any bills they're shoving our way.

Nuclear energy is a clumsy, inefficient and risky dead-end technology that has exactly one function and one function only: Keeping the large energy conglomerates in an oligopoly controlling our infrastructure and extorting basically any price they want, even though a decentralized and competition-oriented infrastructure would be cheaper to operate, less vulnerable for disruptions, sustainable over the long term and much safer to boot.

It had once looked like a cute idea – unfortunately it has never lived up to its promises. Time to pull the plug for good. We'll have to work hard and continue to pay through the nose for many, many years just to clean up the mess they've made up to now.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:05 am



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 9):
pay him any credibility. I mean, he is one of the wealthy politicians in German with a huge mansion in Saarbrücken and on Ibiza (or Mallorca or whereever

Many of the leaders of the Communist parties in Italy and France also did so, and many of them were hotel-owners and entrepreneurs in other fields. The only known communist in Zurich had an extremely well doing bookshop right in the city centre, and a book-tracking service second to none. The last leader of the Italian Communist Party, Enrico Berlinguer, came out of a top family and was a rich man.
 
wilco737
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:34 am

What about the HSP? Horst Schlämmer Partei Big grin

Just kidding.

I haven't decided what to vote yet. Need to do some more research. But I still have a couple of weeks time...

wilco737
 
avek00
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:51 am

The German people have an extremely capable leader in Chancellor Merkel, who frankly has outperformed the expectations of her allies and detractors alike by maintaining a stable postpartisan governing coalition that has managed to successfully guide Germany through the world's worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Live life to the fullest.
 
pelican
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:13 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Just look at the disastrous management of the Krümmel reactor or at nearly any other. The owners consistently show a disturbing lack of commitment to security and a lack of professionalism that is quite simply unacceptable.

As I thought - just propaganda. In the 49 year long history of nuclear power generation in (West) Germany there were just 3 incidents, none was serious. Hence German nuclear power stations are safe.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Peanuts compared to the gigantic public subsidies for the nuclear industry already paid and yet to be paid through centuries.

I wouldn't call 4,2 Billion Euros just for the EEG peanuts and the overall sum of subsidies for renewable energy sources is bigger than that.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Even just requiring the operators to buy actual risk insurance would immediately put them out of business. In reality this insurance does not exist – we all just have to live with their risks and foot any bills they're shoving our way.

Fortunately for everyone using fossil fuels the actual damages caused by it haven't to be paid by the users.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):

And that is fully discounting the unresolved problems of limited supply of nuclear fuel and the rapidly growing amount of toxic nuclear waste which have no parallel with renewable energy.

That's a widespread - at least in Germany - misconception: Nuclear power generation and power generation by renewable sources don't compete but complement each other.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):

Nuclear energy is a clumsy, inefficient and risky dead-end technology that has exactly one function and one function only: Keeping the large energy conglomerates in an oligopoly controlling our infrastructure and extorting basically any price they want, even though a decentralized and competition-oriented infrastructure would be cheaper to operate, less vulnerable for disruptions, sustainable over the long term and much safer to boot.

Problem is, renewable sources aren't able to shoulder the base load of energy generation at the moment and probably for the next 1-2 decades.
So we are faced with a decision between two evils - reducing nuclear power generating capacities while mantaining or even enlarging fossil fuel based power generating capacities or mantaining nuclear power generating capacities and reducing the fossil fuel based power generating capacities.
Here we are back to politics: CDU and CSU say that the second option is the lesser evil in a time of CO2 induced climate change, growing dependance on not so reliable sources of fossil fuels and a growing demand for electrical power - if the plans of many car manufacturers to build electromobiles come true.

BTW Even if the Germans don't change their fear driven approach towards nuclear power generation, it will not change their dependance on nuclear power that much. Nuclear power will be produced abroad - Poland has just annouced to build 3 nuclear power stations between 2016 and 2030 and the French nuclear power generating capacities are growing, too.

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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 19):
The German people have an extremely capable leader in Chancellor Merkel, who frankly has outperformed the expectations of her allies and detractors alike

Exactly my feeling also. When this woman got into the play, I not just underestimated her but rather thought "how can they.... " but I in the meantime have corrected my view of that formidable lady. And what I like about her, quite unlike Mrs Thatcher, Mrs Merkel is ready and up for compromising and practical solutions quite independently of party doctrines. And being flexible in my view is a positive thing, even if some peoply may yell about "principles" .

I basically expect the CDU to be among the winners in the elections, but I do not trust too much the forecasts of experts in regard to the other parties. I think it looks quite good for Mr Westerwelle and his FDP, so that a CDU-CSU/FDP coalition government might become possible.

And this would give the SPD the chance to change. To change the candidate for federal chancellorship from competent and top on the job Mr Steinmeier, but with the "charm" of a Prussian "Land-Junker" to somebody with more down-to-the-earth charm, and to change the party leadership from humourous but heavily and clearly aging Mr Müntefering to somebody more in touch with the younger generation

At the other hand, a surprise-change to the left could result in a SPD-LP coalition, even if denouced by everybody including the German participants on this forum.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:31 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):
Exactly my feeling also. When this woman got into the play, I not just underestimated her but rather thought "how can they.... " but I in the meantime have corrected my view of that formidable lady. And what I like about her, quite unlike Mrs Thatcher, Mrs Merkel is ready and up for compromising and practical solutions quite independently of party doctrines. And being flexible in my view is a positive thing, even if some peoply may yell about "principles" .

I feel exactly the same way.

Jan
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Rara
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:39 pm



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 19):
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The problem is that her government isn't really up for re-election. Complicated I know, but the more people vote for her, the more likely it becomes that the government will change to conservative-libertarian, which would arguably result in an entirely different cabinet and political direction.

It may seem paradoxical, but if you go by "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", the surest bet is to vote for her direct competitor - a stronger SPD means it's more likely that the current coalition will continue...
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
TransIsland
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:55 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 8):
Knowing the Buergeramt Steglitz-Zehlendorf (Berlin) and their awful habit of using PIN AG instead of Deutsche Post to mail out absentee ballots, I will get mine a few weeks after the elections anyway, so I don't have to worry about which one of these useless parties to vote for.

At least in both the last national election as well as the European election, the tardiness of the Buergeramt/postal service robbed me of my right to vote.

My apologies to the Bezirkswahlamt, I actually did get my absentee ballot yesterday.

So, whom to vote for? I'll have to put some thought into this, there's no party that comes to mind immediately that I like.  Sad
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Rara
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:22 pm

If you've got the time, you can wait for the Wahl-o-Mat to be published in a week or so.
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TransIsland
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:11 pm



Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
If you've got the time, you can wait for the Wahl-o-Mat to be published in a week or so.

I have a pretty good idea what the Wahl-o-Mat will tell me, the problem with that though is that it judges the parties by what they PROMISE and not by what they might actually do if elected...  liar 

Anyone remember the last federal election, where the CDU wanted to increase VAT by 2% and the SPD wanted to leave it as is... their great compromise then was to raise it by 3%.

Or: Helmut Kohl: "Bluehende Landschaften!"

Schroeder: "I won't be responsible for a health care system that allows people's social status to be judged by the condition of their teeth."

I'll leave it at that.  pessimist 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:33 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
I was unable to register in time because my passport expired and I needed to get that settled first. However, here's my review of the parties:

no time to register anymore...? shit... so 1 vote less for the xxx  Smile from my side
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:40 am



Quoting Avianca (Reply 27):
no time to register anymore...? shit... so

Yes, because it wasn't until August when I finally had the chance to go to the embassy. Before that, I simply didn't find the time. But this time, as I'm moving back to Hamburg, I'm good to go for at least the 2012 Bürgerschaftswahlen.  Wink
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:43 am

I have 2 questions for our German members:

1. Where does each party stand on Germany's participation in Afghanistan?
2. Where do the German people stand on their participation in Afghanistan?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Rara
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:40 am



Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):

1. Where does each party stand on Germany's participation in Afghanistan?

Four of the five parties in parliament are in favour of continuing the mission. Only the socialists are completely opposed to it.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):

2. Where do the German people stand on their participation in Afghanistan?

Largely against. In polls, most people say we shouldn't be there.
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:56 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28):
Yes, because it wasn't until August when I finally had the chance to go to the embassy. Before that, I simply didn't find the time. But this time, as I'm moving back to Hamburg, I'm good to go for at least the 2012 Bürgerschaftswahlen

hmmm I thought I can register till 2 weeks before th elections... specially as I am registered in the Caracas embassy.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:28 pm



Quoting Avianca (Reply 31):
hmmm I thought I can register till 2 weeks before th elections... specially as I am registered in the Caracas embassy.

The problem in Costa Rica is not only that it may be too late to register, but also that, since the paper were sent via the regular postal service, they may not even arrive in time. If it was to send out ballot back, we could do this via diplomatic correspondence, but in this short time, it's close to impossible to receive the papers in Costa Rica in a timely manner.

BTW: It appears as if the CDU has lost a lot in the elections in the Saarland and in Thüringen, at least according to the first Hochrechnungen. On the bright side, Stanislaw Tillich may have good chances at a full term because the CDU appears to have won in Sachsen. Tillich should be good to go for a coalition with the FDP, while in the Saarland and in Thüringen, the only way for the CDU to retain power and keep the communists from going into the government (The SED got 21,3% in Saarland, the highest they ever got in the West!  Wow! ) is a Grand Coalition. The biggest fear that I have, is that in both Thüringen and Saarland, it could come to Rot-Rot-Grün in the Landtag.

http://wahlarchiv.tagesschau.de/wahl...009-08-30-EVENT-SNTHSL/index.shtml

I hope that there will be brave men and women in the SPD who can help prevent the horror of Rot-Rot-Grün.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:56 pm

This election is even more difficult than before for me because both most likely alternatives aren´t good. I´m not a strict supporter of a certain party. Black/Yellow is bad, as is Red/Red/Green.
I´d wish the CDU/SPD "big coalition" could do it once again, that would be the best. They didnt do a bad job in the past 4 years, better than what happend in the 20 years before. And CDU/SPD together are strong enough to DO something.

I used to be a CDU man until after the reunification 1989/90, but the increasingly unfair politics (pro for the big companies and strongly supporting rich, just bla-bla for the poor) of the once-Helmut Kohl party (together with the cold-hearted FDP) has alienated them for me. And the prospect of a black/yellow government makes it worse. Since the early 90s I´ve mostly voted for the SPD until chancellor Schröder preferred to become friend of the bosses rather than the friend of his traditional voters.

I only know there are two of the 5 big parties I wouldnt vote for, thats the FDP and the Linke. These two have a good number of extremists among them, either brutal capitalists or softened communists, none of such people should be having power.

Its probably SPD again for me, because a strong CDU/FDP would be a nightmare for social consense in this country. Black/Yellow would be a further step to breaking up of the once quite fair society structure. But maybe I just throw away my vote to a small party and go for the Pirates. I´m so tired about our less and less effective democracy, the parties are more and more becoming the lobbies of certain groups, just as in the mid-20s...

The best times for the German democracy were the 70s until the times when Kohl became almighty in 1990.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:19 am

Any opinions on yesterday's state elections in Thüringen, Saarland and Sachsen? It's curious that the CDU people who lost were also one of the most controversial. Peter Müller was heavily criticised for his policies in Saarland, while Dieter Althaus still has to put up with his skiing accident and the death that it caused. On the other hand, Stanislaw Tillich came to power in the wake of the Sachsen-LB scandal, when Milbrandt resigned, and was in fact strenghened in his position by the popular vote. He can choose the coalition partner that he wants, though he'll likely go for the federal solution, Schwarz-Gelb.

One thing that scares me is the possibility of Rot-Rot-Grün in Saarland. By allowing the SED back into power, this time in the West, a party is being rewarded despite a history of brutal political and civil oppression, surveillance of its "citizens" by its own intelligence apparatus and which is mostly known for murdering innocent people who sought nothing but freedom and civil liberties in the West. It would be a very sad day if Rot-Rot-Grün in Saarland was to happen. Just imagine what Honecker, a native of Neunkirchen (Saar) would have said about this if he was still alive.  Yeah sure

I hope common sense prevails and the lesser evil is chosen for becoming the next government in the Landtag of the Saarland, a Jamaika-Koalition between CDU, FDP and Grüne.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:37 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
prevent the horror of Rot-Rot-Grün

Such R-R-G coalitions would be what was in the past called "Volksfront-Regierung". I am not surprised by the Leftwingers success in Saarland, but I really am surprised by the strength of the leftists overall. So that I start to get ready to see a Volksfront-government with Mr Steinmeier as Federal Chancellor. Might be interesting  Big grin Trendwise it may be simply a continuation of the present Grand-Coalition.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:40 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
Any opinions on yesterday's state elections in Thüringen, Saarland and Sachsen? It's curious that the CDU people who lost were also one of the most controversial.

It seems the more market-ideological conservative voters are migrating to the FDP since they see them fighting for the purer ideology of upwards redistribution of wealth while many "visiting" voters who had not been dyed-in-the-wool CDU supporters are jumping ship again as well. At the same time, the CDU/CSU is progressively suffering from their lack of attraction to people under 50 – given the demographic change, their reliance on older, less educated voters spells trouble over the longer term.

The SPD still has trouble regaining any recognizable attraction for left-leaning voters so many are defecting to the Linkspartei – the SPD will need to try winning these voters back.

The Greens have been building a pretty solid core of followers, but they have not been able to profit much from the general shift to the left.

One shouldn't forget that even the current Bundestag is actually dominated by the left – it was a conscious choice of the SPD to forgo the obvious red-red-green coalition and choose a grand coalition with the CDU/CSU instead. In the same constellation, they will most probably repeat that choice, but the fact remains: Angela Merkel had actually lost the last election already – it was by choice of the SPD that she still became chancellor.

And my guess is that this year the election results will shift further to the left, just with basically the same end result, with a further weakened CDU/CSU and SPD, a strengthened FDP and Linkspartei still in Opposition together with the Greens.

The black Bundesrat majority is now gone, however, and that signals a certain change of direction.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
One thing that scares me is the possibility of Rot-Rot-Grün in Saarland. By allowing the SED back into power, this time in the West, a party is being rewarded despite a history of brutal political and civil oppression, surveillance of its "citizens" by its own intelligence apparatus and which is mostly known for murdering innocent people who sought nothing but freedom and civil liberties in the West. It would be a very sad day if Rot-Rot-Grün in Saarland was to happen. Just imagine what Honecker, a native of Neunkirchen (Saar) would have said about this if he was still alive.

The Blockflöten who had always paid their dues to Erich Honecker just like any SED official had been welcomed with open arms into CDU and FDP (including, notably, their money!), so that is not a real difference, especially not twenty years after the end of the GDR. The sanctimonious damnations hurled against the Linkspartei are more than just slightly insincere in many cases.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
I hope common sense prevails and the lesser evil is chosen for becoming the next government in the Landtag of the Saarland, a Jamaika-Koalition between CDU, FDP and Grüne.

That is almost completely impossible, with the extreme ideological positions of the FDP.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:52 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
By allowing the SED back into power, this time in the West, a party is being rewarded despite a history of brutal political and civil oppression, surveillance of its "citizens" by its own intelligence apparatus and which is mostly known for murdering innocent people who sought nothing but freedom and civil liberties in the West.

Sorry, but that description fails by a long margin. You know as well as I do that nobody in Saarland voted for the SED. They voted for their old minister-president Lafontaine, who led the government for 13 years.
And even in the East, "Die Linke" is not SED anymore. I know they have some die-hard communists in their ranks, but that's not saying much - the CDU had Nazi members for many years after the war. I absolutely despise "Die Linke", because I want a united left in this country instead of one populist and one realist party But there was a void on the left side of the party spectrum and Die Linke filled the gap. If you want to attack them, attack them for what they are - populists, gaining their votes with fear and empty promises, anti-Europeans... getting at their precursor from 20 years ago doesn't really cut it.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:31 pm



Quoting HT (Reply 13):

Find out which party best suits your general preferences; www.wahl-o-mat.de starts 04-SEP-2009

I just ran the Wahl-O-Mat, and it tells me that my political views coincide more with CDU/CSU and FDP. I never thought that my views would in some way coincide with the FDP, though I figured that I would likely coincide with the Conservatives.
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:14 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 13):
Find out which party best suits your general preferences; www.wahl-o-mat.de starts 04-SEP-2009

Despite being too young to vote I took the test. Generally my personal opinion coincided with the result, but there were also some surprises. My 'focus' (double consideration) was on nuclear phaseout (    ), abolition of compulsory military service (    ) and rise of Hartz IV standard rate (    ). I would say wahl-o-mat is a nice tool but I wouldn't blindly follow the suggestions who to cast my vote for, because there are also other points to be considered and while one party supports one of my views, it doesn't persuade another.

[Edited 2009-09-07 14:25:13]
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Luftfahrer
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:38 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 39):
it doesn't persuade

*convince me with another

[Edited 2009-09-07 15:38:49]
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:58 pm

I did the Wahl-o-mat test yesterday. To my surprise i found that I'm mostly aligned with the Piratenpartei and the FDP. I'm probably quite libertarian, though not sharing the support of big business as the FDP does.
I'm especially annoyed about the constant erosion of individual civil rights, as both the SPD and CDU propose, in the name of fighting crime and terrorism.

I highly respect Steinmeier and Merkel, but unfortunately you can't get Merkel without Schaeuble and the CDU cronies at local level and Steinmeier without Gabriel and Ypsilanti and the other leftwing cloud cuckoo land sectarians.

Concerning the FDP, I like their social libertarism butyou can't get them without the big business wing (I'm too blue collared to support a total erosion of labour laws).

For the Piratenpartei, while I might fit into their profile, I doubt that they'll receive many more votes than the 5% hurdle, so my vote might be wasted.

Jan
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:21 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
just ran the Wahl-O-Mat

whenever I am not a German, I did do so as well, and this here was the result :

ÜbereinstimmungPartei 54 von 78 Punkten SPD 48 von 78 Punkten DIE LINKE 46 von 78 Punkten FDP 44 von 78 Punkten CDU/CSU

so that I apparently had to be in favour of an SPD/DL/FDP coalition !  yes   wave 
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:29 am



Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 39):
I would say wahl-o-mat is a nice tool but I wouldn't blindly follow the suggestions who to cast my vote for, because there are also other points to be considered and while one party supports one of my views, it doesn't persuade another.

We've had these type of "tools" in the last couple of Danish elections as well, and I agree that it's a good way to get a general oversight of where the parties/candidates stand on specific issues. I usually take the names of the top 5 candidates and run through their websites to see what they say about themselves and their politics.

Also, I'm usually not one to judge people by their appearance, but who on earth approved the photo for the poster of Eva Högl (SPD)?! I saw it numerous times when I was in Berlin, and every time I thought it appeared as though she was in the middle of making a smile, but didn't quite make it in time for the photo being taken  Wink
 
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:16 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 41):
I did the Wahl-o-mat test yesterday. To my surprise i found that I'm mostly aligned with the Piratenpartei and the FDP.

From what I've seen you write, I'm actually not surprised!  cool 

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
so that I apparently had to be in favour of an SPD/DL/FDP coalition !

Now that would be entertaining to watch! Big grin

Unsurprisingly, Greens and SPD came up top in my run, with CDU and FDP coming in last.

The actual election results won't exactly fit this alignment, however (even assuming that the presented positions actually reflected the policies the respective politicians would really promote when elected).
 
racko
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:32 pm

I end up with

1. Piraten
2. Grüne
3. FDP
4. SPD
5. Linke
6. REP
7. NPD
8. CDU


Holy Shit! I acutally tried them all, the only party I agree with less than with the CDU is Zentrum.
 
rlwynn
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:34 am

I did the Wahl O Mat and I am in with the CDU and FDP equal.
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na
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:34 pm

On the one side the Wahlomat tells what I already suggested, that the program of moderate small parties suits me best. But I was surprised that the "hitlist" of the Big parties is almost the other way around to what I thought. That the "Wolkenkuckucksheimparty" Linke finishes last though is no surprise.

1. FWD (Freie Wähler)
2. Piraten
3. CDU
4. FDP
5. SPD
6. Grüne
7. Linke
 
na
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:40 pm

Though I like the idea of the Wahl-o-mat there is one serious shortfall. All questions count equally. Thats isnt how life is. They should install a top 5 questions list which anyone can choose individually and which count double or triple. How can "animal tests" be as important as points as "fortune tax" or "human rights" to anyone, seriously?
 
racko
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RE: German Federal Election Whom To Vote For?

Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:36 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 48):
Though I like the idea of the Wahl-o-mat there is one serious shortfall. All questions count equally. Thats isnt how life is. They should install a top 5 questions list which anyone can choose individually and which count double or triple. How can "animal tests" be as important as points as "fortune tax" or "human rights" to anyone, seriously?

???

You can do exactly that, after you've finished you're asked which questions are more important to you and their value doubles.

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