User avatar
Dreadnought
Topic Author
Posts: 9806
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:04 am

It looks like the Gordon Brown Government pressured the Scottish courts to release the man who played a key part in killing 240 innocent people, in order to help BP's negotiations for an oil deal in Libya. I wonder what the families are feeling about this now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6814939.ece

Quote:
The British government decided it was "in the overwhelming interests of the United Kingdom" to make Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi, the Lockerbie bomber, eligible for return to Libya, leaked ministerial letters reveal.

Gordon Brown's government made the decision after discussions between Libya and BP over a multi-million-pound oil exploration deal had hit difficulties. These were resolved soon afterwards.

In addition, it appears that only one doctor - A GP, not a cancer expert - was willing to say that the man was about to die - the stated reason for his release. Other doctors and specialists who examined him refused to say that.

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/her...ahi_how_long_has_he_really_got.php

This certainly seems to corroborate the accusation that the government went looking for an excuse to release the dirtbag, and to hang their coat on any slightest reason they could find.

Governments have fallen for this kind of thing.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3737
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:12 am

Let the spin machine begin. This sounded strange from the get go.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4549
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:13 am

The question is, will the USA declare the UK to be part of the "axis of evil" and make a "unilateral intervention" in the interests of creating "enduring freedom" for the UK people?  Wink

Mind you, this kind of swindle isn't specific to the UK government. USA helping Saddam Hussein comes to mind as another example of turning a blind-eye to evil because it is convenient.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:43 am



Quoting Cpd (Reply 2):
Mind you, this kind of swindle isn't specific to the UK government. USA helping Saddam Hussein comes to mind as another example of turning a blind-eye to evil because it is convenient.

Saudi Arabia anyone?.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 3690
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:32 am

The Oil rich 'less than exemplar' democracies and downright autocracies of the Middle East are still able to make all of the lesson-giving western governments wear their underpants on the outside if they want to in exchange for some of their oil...

Not a surprise, but it makes you long for the day we can power ourselves without begging those backwards governments for their sticky stuff.

Mind you, every one of these events brought to the light help raise awareness amongst us, so it might serve a purpose.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13069
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:37 am

So basically, Brown yielded to the terrorist regime of Ghadaffi by releasing one of the Lockerbie bombers for the sake of oil? Great, I'm just waiting to hear how the general public will react to that, particularly the family of the victims, because this is could become a shitstorm of epic proportions.  Yeah sure
 
evomutant
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:47 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:17 am

As I understand it, all that happened is that the British Justice Minister, Jack Straw, declined to specifically exempt Megrahi from the UK-Libyan prisoner transfer treaty. Instead, it was a run of the mill "standard" treaty with no special clauses in it. This was quite possibly related to trade.

All well and good. Except it is irrelevant, because the Scottish Justce minister, Kenny Mckaskill, declined to transfer Megrahi to Libya under the terms of that treaty. If he had, Megrahi would right now be in a Libyan prison, or under house arrest. Instead, he released him on compassionate grounds, under Scottish law. It would be completely within his rights to do so whether or not this treaty existed, even if said treaty DID exempt Megrahi.

It doesn't look very good, but lets not let the hype cover up the actual process that happened. Release and transfer are two very different things, and some seem to be forgetting that.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:29 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Governments have fallen for this kind of thing.

Please God, let it be so. Almost all of us in this country have had enough of our lying, deceitful, beguiling so-called government. Shame on them!
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:51 am

Of course Megrahi is very keen to keep the whole issue a secret.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8228219.stm

Megrahi backs Lockerbie inquiry
The man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing has backed calls for a public inquiry into the atrocity.

Speaking to Scotland's The Herald newspaper from his home in the Libyan capital, Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi said he was determined to clear his name.

He also said an inquiry would help families of the victims know the truth.


Yep, that sounds guilty and suspicious. No possibility that MacAskill was correct then? Good to be all knowing.
 
Tiger119
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:02 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):
So basically, Brown yielded to the terrorist regime of Ghadaffi by releasing one of the Lockerbie bombers for the sake of oil

- And now Ghadaffi wants to come to New York to go to the U.N. and he wants to pitch a tent in New Jersey. Does anyone have "Tony Soprano's" cell phone number?  banghead   blockhead   box   duck   sarcastic 
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:04 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
Yep, that sounds guilty and suspicious. No possibility that MacAskill was correct then? Good to be all knowing.

You may ultimately be right, Alan. However, there is no underestimating the sneakiness and guile of our government, and as I have previously said there are no positives here - either we jailed an innocent man or we let a terrorist murderer go free.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:04 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):
So basically, Brown yielded to the terrorist regime of Ghadaffi by releasing one of the Lockerbie bombers for the sake of oil? Great, I'm just waiting to hear how the general public will react to that, particularly the family of the victims, because this is could become a shitstorm of epic proportions. Yeah sure

Basically with the release, the Scottish (and British) governments have also prevented a re-trial with new evidence, which would have put strong questionmarks on previous actions by various governments and would possibly have caused politician´s heads to roll.

Jan

[Edited 2009-08-30 02:08:35]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:26 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
Yep, that sounds guilty and suspicious. No possibility that MacAskill was correct then? Good to be all knowing.

You may ultimately be right, Alan. However, there is no underestimating the sneakiness and guile of our government, and as I have previously said there are no positives here - either we jailed an innocent man or we let a terrorist murderer go free.

Agreed on most fronts RJ, but don't underestimate the sneakiness of other governments just because the UK one has had its spectacular moments. As Jan suggests, the odds are that an innocent man was jailed and in that sense the real sneakiness comes in:

1. Doing that in the first place, and

2. Not being willing to go through with the recommendations for the appeal by Megrahi.

You could hardly call Jim Swire either uninterested or uninformed (or stupid or duplicitous for that matter)

From 2008.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-19419627.html

Article: Swire: I will carry on appeal if Megrahi dies in jail Lockerbie bomber denied bail EXCLUSIVE

THE father of a woman killed over Lockerbie yesterday vowed to stand in and continue the appeal of the Libyan convicted of the bombing if he dies "before justice is done".

Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora, 23, died in the tragedy 20 years ago, has taken legal advice and believes he would be able to pursue the case if Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi cannot.

The revelation came after Megrahi lost his application to be released from jail pending appeal. Three judges at the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh took a week to make the decision and said the argument to release him was currently outweighed by the scale of the atrocity.


Aug 2009
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...iscarriage-of-justice-1771887.html

Leading article: Come clean over this miscarriage of justice

The evidence in the Lockerbie trial must be thoroughly re-examined

....

Yet the fact is that this particular agreement does not look like a Western attempt to curry favour with the Libyan regime. It is doubtful whether al-Megrahi should have been convicted in the first place. Al-Megrahi is unlikely to be a saint, having worked for the Libyan intelligence services for a number of years. But the evidence linking him to the Lockerbie bombing has looked increasingly weak since his conviction in 2001.

In that trial, held in a specially convened court in the Netherlands, al-Megrahi was positively identified by a witness who, it has been alleged, was offered a $2m reward for his evidence. The Libyan's defence team was also, apparently, denied access to official government papers that were made available to Scottish police. Furthermore, evidence has emerged that the Iranian regime sponsored the bombing. One former Iranian agent has come forward to claim that it was revenge for the shooting down of an Iranian commercial airliner by a US warship in July 1988. Taken together, all this provides serious grounds for believing that a miscarriage of justice took place.

Some doubt whether we will ever discover conclusive proof of who was responsible for the mass murder in Lockerbie, arguing that too much time has passed. But it would be wrong simply to give up trying to discover what happened. Even if al-Megrahi is permitted to return to Libya to die, his appeal against his conviction should run its course. The evidence against him – and the Libyan state – must be thoroughly tested.

So much about this tragedy remains shrouded in shadow. If it cannot be dragged into the light, we should at least attempt to establish what we do not know. And if the wrong individual was convicted for this terrible crime, the authorities must not be allowed to sweep that uncomfortable fact under the carpet.


Now we don't want to think about shooting down passenger planes again do we?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:48 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
the Gordon Brown Government pressured the Scottish courts to release the man who played a key part in killing 240 innocent people, in order to help BP's negotiations for an oil deal in Libya. I wonder what the families are feeling about this now.

I hope, the families have long ago realized that this was just one of those somehow involved. Citing the word "key" you used above, I have to say that there were many keys. Some may feel understandably bitter, but they in such a case could have felt even more bitter about the clear fact that most "keypart" players never had to be in court
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 20983
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:09 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Please God, let it be so. Almost all of us in this country have had enough of our lying, deceitful, beguiling so-called government. Shame on them!

I hope they fall for other more important reasons for things they have done to the country other than the controversial Lockerbie issue.
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:22 am

The one problem with this theory is that the Labour government and the SNP up in Scotland, hate each other.
I mean really hate each other.

The feuds within the Scottish Labour Party have been bad enough over the years, most of the Scots in the government from 1997 had a range of personal feuds going back decades.

If one thing ever united them however, it is abject loathing for the SNP.

This is something not alluded to, in a story from a Murdoch paper (and thus suspect by default).

Not saying there is murkiness around this case, there are, as others have pointed out, enough questions going back years anyway, the differing reactions to the US and British relatives of the victims is notable.

And if the SNP thought they'd get any political capitol out this release, well polling evidence, in Scotland itself, shows a clear majority were opposed to the release of this man.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23345
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:44 am



Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
I mean really hate each other.

Indeed. Which is why I ain't buying this theory.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:28 am

I just wish Cameron and the Opposition would grab the opportunity to raise questions in the Commons about the whole episode and find out exactly what deals were agreed and by whom. Chances are Cameron knows more than he will admit proving that there were deals agreed in the highest corridors of power and a retrial of Megrahi would only bring these to light.

Ever since His Tonyness was elected under the promise of being "purer that pure", this government has become totally engulfed by ministers up to their eyeballs in sleaze, corruption and lies. Before Blair, would anyone have believed anything the Libyans are saying? Now they are believed as much as Brown's government.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:32 am

It is interesting to note that BP has it's world headquarters only a few blocks from the Houses of Palrament.
What happened here was a terrible mix of issues.
You had one of the worst terror acts involving aircraft happen. As with such acts, it is almost impossible to really determine who did them or were behind them. Evidence was destroyed, there was much less of a paper or electornic trail to trace to criminal evidence stanadards in 1988 than now to help and people involved were able to hide their identies more easily.
Lybia was a believable supporter of this act of terror due to the attempts under then Pres. Reagan of the USA to murder Qudaffi for his support of terror against Israel with a bombing of his housing compound, killing at least one of his daughters and injuring others.
There was not enough security for international air flights at that time and indeed PA 103 did force a step up in the standards world wide and with flights involving the USA (such as baggage-pax matching).
You had citizens of the USA and families of the vicitms of PA 103 that wanted any kind of revenge against those that did it. Lybia faced substantual economic and trade sanctions from the USA and Europe including on oil sales, just making the situation worse.
Eventually the need for oil by the world and Lybia's need for income caused deals to be made that paid off the vicitms families but never gain real justice.
The justice process was was terrible mix that was intended, especially for Lybia, to be not worth the effort, comprimised UK/Scottish laws, had questions of evidence and political pressures from the USA resulting in a show trial with only 1 person convicted.
That no real justice was done and indeed that the appeal pending could have overthrown the convictons requiered saving face as well as end the sactions as they were of no real value. Lybia was able to show that they could beat the USA and Europe in politics, to the benefit of Qudaffi and make him look like the hero he wanted to be to the Islamic world.
In the end, we never were able to resolve this matter for anyone's satisfaction. Perhaps it is better to just move on.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:03 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 18):
Lybia was a believable supporter of this act of terror due to the attempts under then Pres. Reagan of the USA to murder Qudaffi for his support of terror against Israel with a bombing of his housing compound, killing at least one of his daughters and injuring others.

The reason for this bombing was an attack on a nightclub frequented by American GIs in West Berlin. A bomb was explosed in this nightclub, killing three people, two GIs and a young Turkish woman.
It was immediately assumed that the bomb was put into place by Libyan agents, especially since Libya and the US were at this time at odds due to Ghaddafi´s insistence that the Gulf of Sidra, a huge bay in the Mediterranean, should be Libyan territory, while about anybody else says that it is international waters (except for the usual 12 mile zone).
There were several fights between the American 6th Fleet, Italian airforce and the Libyan navy and airforce in this region.

Ghaddafi also supported the IRA (in the 1980s the British captured a Libyan ship with a load of explosives and weapons intended for the IRA), so Attila the Hen, Margaret Thatcher, was only too eager to support the Americans in bombing Ghaddafi´s headquarters and residence.
Later information coming from the former East German intelligence service archives suddenly made accessible after the fall of the Berlin Wall rather pointed to the nightclub bomb having been placed by Syrian sponsored terrorists.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:26 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 18):

Lybia was
Qudaffi for
Lybia faced
Lybia's need

A) The name of the country is LIBYA
B) The name in question can be transliterated differently but a Qu.... never existed
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:17 pm



Quoting Cpd (Reply 2):
The question is, will the USA declare the UK to be part of the "axis of evil" and make a "unilateral intervention" in the interests of creating "enduring freedom" for the UK people?

Mind you, this kind of swindle isn't specific to the UK government. USA helping Saddam Hussein comes to mind as another example of turning a blind-eye to evil because it is convenient.

First off, the axis of evil was coined by Bush, who is now retired in texas. Second, back when the U.S. helped Saddam, it was more to get rid of Iran, not for oil.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 16):
Indeed. Which is why I ain't buying this theory.

Of course you don't. No one wants to believe that their country does this sort of thing. But oil is one of the most precious commodities on earth. Anything that will look after a country's oil interests, they will listen.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
gkirk
Posts: 23345
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:28 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):
But oil is one of the most precious commodities on earth. Anything that will look after a country's oil interests, they will listen.

You really don't understand just how much hatred there is between Labour and the SNP, do you?  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:34 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
You really don't understand just how much hatred there is between Labour and the SNP, do you?

Or how much oil Scotland already has access to anyway.  Wink
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
fca767
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:29 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:46 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):
Second, back when the U.S. helped Saddam, it was more to get rid of Iran, not for oil.

Some articles said they also helped the present iran government get in power due to an oil thing they had...and now we see what's happened in Iran.
I don't like what's happened and I think it's sick that it's always to do with oil...
Why don't they move to Renewable sources, probably because there are some greedy companies out there...and if we relied on ourselves we wouldn't be giving money out..............
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:18 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):
But oil is one of the most precious commodities on earth.

Interesting concept, pleased to learn this, but slightly puzzled as to why - if it is so - the US wastes so much.
 
us330
Posts: 3407
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:42 pm

Absolutely shameful. BP might be facing a public boycott as news of this spreads.

To think, while people speculated and continue to speculate that Halliburton played a role in the U.S.' decision to invade Iraq, we have a real live case of corporate corruption of a Western power's government.

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 9):
And now Ghadaffi wants to come to New York to go to the U.N. and he wants to pitch a tent in New Jersey. Does anyone have "Tony Soprano's" cell phone number?

Which he is well within his right to do. As much as I would love for the U.S. to bar entry to him, they legally cannot as he is there to attend the U.N.--it was part of the deal when the U.S. allowed the U.N. to use the U.S. as a base.
He is no longer going to stay in New Jersey, according to an article in the NY Daily News. The State Dept. is looking into arranging him accomodations in a Manhattan luxury hotel.
The U.S., however, can restrict where he can go while in New York, and I have a hunch that the only places he will be allowed to go are the U.N., his hotel room, and the airport.
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:55 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
either we jailed an innocent man

it has been known to happen, seriously, does anyone here believe that the UK & Scottish govt would allow this man to go free if he really was the bomber? smells like more rot & we all know where it usually starts.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2261
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:25 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 27):
it has been known to happen, seriously, does anyone here believe that the UK & Scottish govt would allow this man to go free if he really was the bomber? smells like more rot & we all know where it usually starts.

There was a thread recently about the top 10 conspiracy theories. Much was said about the death of JFK, but if there was ever a "conspiracy" this is it, Im willing to bet this deal was worked out a long time ago.

Prostate cancer is a killer, but if caught early enough is treatable and I believe a relatively high percentage of males will get it. This was the convenient excuse the government were looking for.

It was quite clear from the start that Megrahi was framed, even if he was the key man, he was not a lone ranger and there were others in this too. Why did the Libyan govenment let him be framed in this way?? Libya needed the free trade and healing of relations with the west. The west need the oil. The Scots and the Americans needed to put someone inside to give some closure to the mourners and to make the public at ease with a statement to terrorists that they would be located and dealt with, not left to roam free and repeat the atrocitiy. It seems to me he took 'taking a hit for the team' to a new level and you can be sure he has been adequately compensated. Im pretty sure, while he may no doubt have got prostate cancer, its under control and he will be around to see a few more Ramadan's yet...

It doesnt go beyond the realms of imagination to think this deal was all pre-meditated, maybe not conclusively at the time, but in the last few years. If this is true, then the contempt for 270 lives is disgraceful. If a court ever got hold of all that paperwork that was witheld, the world could be in for quite a nasty shock...
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
Pellegrine
Posts: 1766
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:38 am

Lockerbie? 20-some years later it is really time to move on. I'm sorry.

Blood for oil? Never! Is the public so naive?

Tens of thousands did not die in Iraq for nothing. Thousands have not died in the Sudan for nothing... Millions of people have not died, had their lives uprooted, or had their live expectancies cut short due to horrid pollution in our quest for natural resources around the world for nothing... Let the 'educated' westerners not remain so naive, but for the cheap energy we source from relatively unstable regions that runs our economic engines, we'd be right there with them.

What is the truth? Libya (along with Algeria) has a significant amount of hydrocarbons, relatively close to Europe. European sources are drying up. As we see the gas already comes from Russia/CIS. Letting this token man go in exchange for access to energy is prudent if anything. Sometimes ideals must be swept aside in order to secure the future.
oh boy!!!
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2261
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:45 am

Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
evomutant
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:47 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:24 am



Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 30):
Jack Straw is denying it all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8...3.stm

Who's that sick guy? I heard Megrahi was faking it all, so it can't be him.

And deal or no deal, it's irrelevant. The transfer agreement in question wasn't used in his release. The Scottish Justice minister specifically refused to transfer him under that agreement. He was released, which is something very different and could have happened whether this treaty existed or not, and whatever special caveats it had in it.
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:05 am



Quoting Evomutant (Reply 31):
Who's that sick guy? I heard Megrahi was faking it all, so it can't be him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8216466.stm

look at the photo in the two stories, its him.
 
IH8BY
Posts: 758
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:39 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:05 am



Quoting BCAL (Reply 17):
Ever since His Tonyness was elected under the promise of being "purer that pure", this government has become totally engulfed by ministers up to their eyeballs in sleaze, corruption and lies.

To be fair - and don't get me wrong, this is no endorsement of the current government - the last Conservative government was also drowning in its own sleaze by the time 1997 came around.
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9197
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:54 am

This one does not surprise me.
I never believed this man was "terminally ill".

MEGRAHI ‘GETTING BETTER

THE cancer-stricken Lockerbie bomber, far from being close to death, is “getting better by the day”, his family said yesterday.

Relatives claim the health of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, 57, has shown marked signs of improvement and they now hope he could even make a full recovery.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/123796/Megrahi-getting-better-

 Wow!  Yeah sure  Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:00 am



Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 30):
Jack Straw is denying it all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8229193.stm

And it you listen to interviews with the Journo whose byline appears, he keeps on stating, X met Gaddafi and so that must have been about the BP lease conditions, and so if prisoners were being discussed, it must have been centred around BP and Megrahi. So his conclusions do not seem to be spelled out in the magic memos, and for once Straw might be believable.

In any event, there are two other factors,

1. As has been spelled out, Labour and SNP are not really likely to oblige the other and

2. The one thing that might unite the Scottish and UK governments is that the whole trial and the evidence were tainted and if Megrahi's appeal were heard it would be extremely embarrassing.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9197
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:04 am

Oh and this...
We are learning something new every day...

US offered 'millions' to keep bomber in UK

Revealed: Britain and America's major disagreement over where Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi should end his days

Scottish ministers went ahead with the controversial decision to send the Lockerbie bomber back to Libya despite an American offer to bankroll his "house arrest" in the UK, it emerged yesterday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-to-keep-bomber-in-uk-1779389.html
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:15 am



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 33):
the last Conservative government was also drowning in its own sleaze by the time 1997 came around.

The sleaze that certain Conservatives Ministers were into in the late 1990s was like some nuns caught whispering in the chapel compared to the present government. How ironic it is that Bliar who promised to be purer than pure while trying to wrap himself in Lady Thatcher's successes should end his career as a raddled old political tart; as someone dipped to the eyeballs in lies, corruption and sleaze and left behind like minded ministers who carried on his legacy.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 34):
I never believed this man was "terminally ill".

And from what I have read neither did the powers that be. His illness was certified by a GP rather than a specialist in the cancer field.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:12 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 34):
is “getting better by the day”, his family said yesterday.

Relatives claim the health of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, 57, has shown marked signs of improvement and they now hope he could even make a full recovery.

this must be the healthy climate of Libya !  Silly



Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
the whole trial and the evidence were tainted

"tainted" is a mild expression for a "trial" with faulted and corrupted evidence, with a trial where the real culprits were not even mentioned, a trial which came about as a result of twisting and cheating

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 36):
Scottish ministers went ahead with the controversial decision to send the Lockerbie bomber back to Libya despite an American offer to bankroll his "house arrest" in the UK, it emerged yesterday.

This of course in reality is an absolute scandal. I cannot understand how the USA could do something like that.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:15 pm



Quoting BCAL (Reply 17):
I just wish Cameron and the Opposition would grab the opportunity to raise questions in the Commons about the whole episode and find out exactly what deals were agreed and by whom. Chances are Cameron knows more than he will admit proving that there were deals agreed in the highest corridors of power and a retrial of Megrahi would only bring these to light.

The problem is, that as the Labour Party have now lengthened the parliamentary summer holday to almost three months, the earliest opportunity to directly challenge them will be in October, when this will probably be forgotten.

Ever since His Tonyness was elected under the promise of being "purer that pure", this government has become totally engulfed by ministers up to their eyeballs in sleaze, corruption and lies. Before Blair, would anyone have believed anything the Libyans are saying? Now they are believed as much as Brown's government.

I knew this was all true, when Mandelson dismissed it as preposterous, a bigger liar you would be hard put to find.

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 33):
Quoting BCAL (Reply 17):
Ever since His Tonyness was elected under the promise of being "purer that pure", this government has become totally engulfed by ministers up to their eyeballs in sleaze, corruption and lies.

To be fair - and don't get me wrong, this is no endorsement of the current government - the last Conservative government was also drowning in its own sleaze by the time 1997 came around.

The Tory sleaze all looks quite innocent now, sleeping with secretaries, a free nights accomodation in the Paris Ritz etc.
As to the notorious cash for questions case and the brown envelopes of cash, the truth behind it wa that Mohammed Al Fayed paid MP Neil Hamilton £2k in cash to ask a question in the House of Commons. Hamilton took the money, but then failed to ask the question so Fayed shopped him. Fayed should have been up in court for bribing an MP.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 39):
Mandelson di ..... Mohammed Al Fayed ....... Neil Hamilton

All this is almost irrelevant in this business. The U.K. simply got rid of a person who was involved in a crime but in reality just was a minor figure established by his "supreme leader" as THE culprit.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:45 am

I just got to see the home coming celebration in Libya for the ..gentleman.

Sorry but I was hoping a couple of 2000lb JADAM were on there way down to add a little fire works for them..

I know I know , but what a spit in the eye to the west these people are .... we should blow up a few Libyan airliners in mid air see how they like it. man that insulted me. Khdafi is nothing but a rouge thug .... I hope the protesters line up when he shows up in NJ this month. Hell I may fly back for that
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:59 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 41):
Khdafi is nothing but a rouge thug

Anybody having a question about this ?  Wink Muammar and Hannibal K. ARE deranged.
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:44 am

Here are the ten unanswered questions over the extraordinary decision to release Megrahi.

1 Why Did Saif Gaddafi say Megrahi's case was 'on the table' when all trade agreements with Britain were being discussed?

2 Why did Colonel Gaddafi thank British and Scottish governments for freeing the bomber, despite the UK denying any involvement?

3 Was Megrahi encouraged to drop his appeal – a prerequisite for release under a UK-Libya prisoner transfer agreement – having spent years demanding to prove his innocence?

4 Why has Gordon Brown, alone among world leaders whose countries are affected, refused to offer any view on Megrahi's release?

5 What were the 'wider issues' Justice Secretary Jack Straw took into account when he did a U-turn in 2007 and decided Megrahi should be covered by the prisoner transfer agreement?

6 What involvement did Downing Street have in the final decision?

7 Why did Mandleson meet Saif Gaddafi on his summer holiday in Corfu, and did he do anything to encourage Megrahi's release?

8 Do the minutes of meetings between British and Libyan ministers suggest the path was smoothed for Megrahi's release, even if no explicit deal was discussed?

9 Did the Scottish justice department fear Megrahi's appeal would reveal weakness in the case against him?

10 Why was the prognosis that Megrahi had less than three months to live – the limit in guidelines for compassionate release – apparently supported only by an unnamed doctor who had no expertise in terminal prostrate cancer?

If I were a member of an opposition party I would be tabling all ten questions in the House of Commons. However, it is coincidental that the decision was taken to release Megrahi during the middle of the summer recess and MPs do not return to the House until early October.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:20 am

It has just been announced the UK Government and Scottish executive will today release all their correspondence over the Lockerbie bomber's release in a bid to draw a line under the controversy.

Of course, this will be a highly edited version and a whitewash.  banghead 
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:27 pm

It just shows the contempt that our rulers show to us the electorate, in that as the Scottish justice minister was waffling on and on and on, so long in fact that the BBC cut away from the press conference, with the newsreader stating that they would return when he actually said anything; the Libyan plane was waiting at Glasgow for its passenger.
No wonder that the BBC was convinced in advance that he woudl be released, they obviously realised that the plane had been sent, as the Libyans had been told in advance.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:06 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 27):
it has been known to happen, seriously, does anyone here believe that the UK & Scottish govt would allow this man to go free if he really was the bomber? smells like more rot & we all know where it usually starts.

Jeez Monty then why was he locked up to begin with? This is no surprise and just shows that the UK will negotiate with terrorists. Way to go Scotland, just destroy all the work we have done.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:46 am



Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 30):
Jack Straw is denying it all

Am I the only one who's surprised to hear his name again? I had completely forgotten about him. Too bad it didn't stay that way.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
evomutant
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:47 am

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:33 am

I found it mildly interesting while browsing these documents that the US Government refused permission for correspondence between them and the Scottish Authorities to be published. Presumably these backhanded deals to pay for house arrest are a tad too embarrassing to have in the open.

Also interesting that numerous Oncologists and Urologists saw Megrahi. So the "GP only" BS was just that, BS.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Lockerbie Bomber Released For Oil Deal

Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:45 am



Quoting Evomutant (Reply 48):
I found it mildly interesting while browsing these documents that the US Government refused permission for correspondence between them and the Scottish Authorities to be published. Presumably these backhanded deals to pay for house arrest are a tad too embarrassing to have in the open.

Also interesting that numerous Oncologists and Urologists saw Megrahi. So the "GP only" BS was just that, BS.

So you will be interested in this link to Rear Vision - always helpful for things in the past!! Sorry to quote at such length, but it appears some don't know and maybe some don't want to know about the shonky nature of the evidence at the trial. In short, how was his chief assistant not guilty, but Megrahi was?

This is what is mean by tainted evidence, although you could argue that a case has been made that the whole trial procedure was tainted. Which is a terrible consequence for Scotland that until now could make an arguable case for having the best justice system in the world.

I make no additonal comment, the evidence in this program is similar to that which has already appears to have convinced the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC) that there was a case for a review of his conviction.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/rearvision/stories/2007/2024833.htm
Podcast OR Transcript at

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/rearvision/stories/2007/2024833.htm

Extracts from transcript.

The decision of a Scottish judicial commission to allow a new appeal by the one man convicted over the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie nearly 20 years ago has put the spotlight on the fairness and justice of the original trial.

.....

Negotiations between Libya and the US and the UK over how the trial would proceed took years, but finally in 2001, one of the men, Abdel Basset al-Megrahi, was found guilty of placing the suitcase containing the bomb on the plane and he is now serving a life sentence in a prison near Glasgow. Recently however, after mounting disquiet over the original finding, the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission has decided to refer Megrahi's case to the High Court, a step it takes in cases where it believes there may have been a miscarriage of justice.

Today on Rear Vision, we'll look at what happened at the original trial and hear from three men who are relieved that Megrahi will finally have a chance for a proper appeal against his conviction.

Robert Black, QC, is the former Professor Emeritus of Scots Law at the University of Edinburgh. It was he who proposed that a non-jury trial under Scottish law be held at a neutral venue in the Netherlands.

There had been so much advance publicity about the Lockerbie affair and much of that advance publicity simply assumed as true the government contentions about who was responsible for the atrocity, namely these two Libyan men, and it was in that context that I came up with the idea of having a trial under Scottish procedure, but without a jury. And also because they were worried about the physical safety of their citizens if they were tried in Scotland, I also suggested that perhaps the trial should be held in a neutral country, like the Netherlands. And so that was the basis upon which I put forward the original proposal, and the Libyan government and the Libyan defence team accepted that proposal within hours of my formally submitting it to them in writing.
....
Keri Phillips: Attention had switched to Libya after the first Gulf War, when, some suggest, Iran became an important Western ally. For those who'd lost loved ones, the beginning of the trial in 2000 was a relief, although some were mystified that the responsibility had been shifted from Iran to Libya. Jim Swire lost his 24 year old daughter, Flora, on Pan Am 103.
.....
Jim Swire: We had had meetings with politicians in all sorts of different countries in Cairo and in Britain and Libya, including three visits to see Colonel Gaddafi himself, and once the indictments were issued, it was an extraordinary event, because we knew that up until that point the criminal investigation had been presuming that Iran was behind it, because she had the strong motive of having had her airbus shot down two months before by the Americans, and that the Syrian terrorist group had been the executives because they were known to have the technology that fitted perfectly for what had happened. That was the basis behind my thinking at the time. But we had been told also by a chap called Douglas Hogg who was No.2 to the Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hird in Britain at the time, that there was no evidence against any nation other than Libya, and we knew that that statement simply wasn't true, and we couldn't find ourselves believing what we were told.
...

Robert Black: The evidence that was led by the prosecution was much as I think followers of the affair had anticipated. So there were no, I think, real surprises in the prosecution case. But what I think did come as a surprise to some people was how weak some of that evidence turned out to be, particularly the evidence linking Mr Megrahi with Malta, and with the purchase of the clothes which surrounded the bomb. Now these clothes were purchased, so the Crown contended, in a particular shop in Malta. And one of the main planks of the prosecution case against Megrahi was to establish that he was the person who had bought those clothes in that shop in Malta. I think it was partly the problem of the witness, the shopkeeper who actually sold the clothes. He never actually came out and positively said 'I identify Abdel Bassett Megrahi as the person who bought the clothes in my shop.' The most that he would say and the most that he ever said in the run-up to the trial, and in the trial itself, was that Megrahi resembled a lot the person who bought the clothes.

But he had also, in the past, given descriptions of the person who came into the shop and bought these clothes. And that description did not in any way tie up with the physical appearance of Megrahi. For example, in his first statement to the police, the shopkeeper said, 'The person who came into my shop and bought the clothes was over 6-feet tall and was more than 50 years of age'. Now Abdel Basset Megrahi at the relevant time was 36 years old, and was 5-feet 8-inches tall. This came out at the trial. The judges accepted that the shopkeeper effectively had identified Megrahi as the person who bought the clothes, which he never did. And as I say, most neutral, unbiased observers thought that that was an absolutely perverse decision by the judges on the evidence which had been led in court. If it had not been that the court wrongly, in my view, accepted that it had been established that Megrahi was the person who bought the clothes in Malta, there would have been no justification whatever for convicting him. There really wasn't any other significant evidence at all against Megrahi.
....
Robert Black: This is very, very surprising, isn't it, because the basis of the Crown's case against the Libyans was that Megrahi was the brains behind the plot. The bag-carrier if you like was Fahima, the other accused. But the importance of Fahima in the Crown scenario, the Crown explanation of Lockerbie was that Fahima was the one who had the ability to get the case containing the bomb into the airline baggage handling system, because Fahima was the station chief of Libyan Arab Airlines in Malta, and he was the one, according to the Crown, who could arrange for the suitcase containing the bomb, to be transported as unaccompanied baggage from Malta to Frankfurt, then from Frankfurt to Heathrow and at Heathrow then to be laden on to Pan Am 103. So that was Fahima's role. He wasn't the brains, but he was a necessary instrument in getting this bomb into the airline baggage handling system as unaccompanied baggage.

Now when the trial court held that there was not actually sufficient evidence to show that Fahima had done any of these things, that left an enormous gap in the Crown case, because they now could not provide an explanation of how this suitcase containing the bomb actually got into the interline baggage transfer system at all, because if Fahima wasn't responsible for it, there was no other explanation. So many people thought it's absolutely amazing that the person who supposedly was the one who actually sent this piece of baggage on its fatal journey, once he's out of the picture, how on earth are you still able to convict the other man?

...
Jim Swire: What I do know is that were circumstances surrounding the trial which one can just credibly say may have misled the judges. And those are things like the fact that the body of the evidence was essentially obtained and offered up by intelligence services in the West, particularly of course the CIA and the FBI. And intelligence services are not known as seekers after truth. If they're doing their job properly they will be doing what they believe is in the interests of the country for which they work, and that may or may not coincide with the truth. I think that's fairly self-evident. So that's the first thing. The real powers behind the assembly of evidence were not uninvolved, objective-minded people, they were people who had a job to do, and I think that at Zeist we saw them doing it.

Another thing was that I felt very uncomfortable; there were members of the US State Department in court who appeared to me during the actual hearings to be coaching one or two of the witnesses, by giving the very slightest of nods to indicate that he should answer yes to that question during the proceedings. And to have powerful representatives of the accusing power present in full view of the witnesses and apparently acting in that way, was totally and utterly unacceptable I think. And I think in this context we should remember what the great Nelson Mandela said to us and had published just before President Clinton gave the go-ahead for the trial in the first place, Nelson Mandela went public and told everyone No one country should be complainant, prosecutor, and judge. But if you take the UK and the USA as acting as one entity in this issue, the UK and the USA were the complainants, the prosecutor and really they were the judges.
.....
Robert Black: I know that people like Dr Jim Swire who have never been convinced of Megrahi's guilt, even after sitting through the whole of the trial and listening to all of the evidence, their view has been All right, we think an innocent man was convicted and we will fight to get him released. But I think their motivation was largely to the effect that until we get this miscarriage of justice rectified, there will always be a blockage in our path towards finding out the truth about Lockerbie, because every time we say to governments Hold an inquiry into what happened at Lockerbie, the government says We don't need to. We've had a trial and a man's been convicted. We know what happened at Lockerbie. Why are you asking for an inquiry? So to people like Jim Swire you've got to get the blockage caused by Megrahi's conviction removed, and then you can go back to government and say OK, now what reason can you come up with for not holding an inquiry into Lockerbie? And so I think that's part of Jim Swire's motivation, and I support him in that, but I honestly don't think that even if we have an inquiry, that will lead with any certainty to a conclusion as to who was responsible. It may point in certain directions but I personally now think too much time has passed and that we will never actually get an answer that beyond reasonable doubt convinces everyone this is what happened at Lockerbie.
...

Keri Phillips: And it may take a year before Megrahi's case will be heard in a Scottish appeal court.

If you'd like to find out more about this story, do go to the Rear Vision website. I've put a link to Professor Kochler's Lockerbie website there and you can find his reports to the UN, the court judgments and a lot of other articles on the trial.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, Baidu [Spider] and 46 guests