dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:40 pm

Sometimes you just have to wonder where in the world common sense has disappeared too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090903/us_nm/us_bank_thumbprint


MIAMI (Reuters) – A bank in Florida refused to cash a check for an armless man because he could not provide a thumbprint.

"They looked at my prosthetic hands and the teller said, 'Well, obviously you can't give us a thumbprint'," Steve Valdez told CNN on Wednesday.



Having a general policy is all well and good and I appluad their efforts to make things secure, but never say never, there are just some situations that call for an exception to the rule.

Perhaps they should have had him remove a shoe and sock and provide a toe print?    Would the machine even recognize the difference?   

I hope this guy wasn't a vet who lost his arms in battle. If he is, actually regardless if he is, shame on BOA and their employees for not finding a supervisor or manager no matter how high up the chain they had to go to remedy the situation.

[Edited 2009-09-03 08:41:37]
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:53 pm



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Sometimes you just have to wonder where in the world common sense has disappeared too.

Lawsuit incoming in 5...4...3...2...1...  Yeah sure
 
avent
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:11 pm

Isn't this really a policy issue? Why is this a problem with biometrics?
 
Charles79
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:31 pm

Sad story indeed. I hope it was the case where a low level employee just wasn't informed enough and not a widespread issue within the company. For you and I it reads as a lack of common sense but from the employee's perspective it may not be as clear (perhaps he's under pressure to follow the rules strictly without deviation). Also, I wonder if it was a case where there was a fingerprint on file (accidentally linked to his profile) and thus the employee exercised caution. Either way I hope that BoA is working to rectify the situation.

Quoting Avent (Reply 2):
Isn't this really a policy issue? Why is this a problem with biometrics?

On the face of it sounds like a policy issue indeed. Perhaps when they enacted the policy no one took into consideration the number of people who do not have the capability to produce digits for fingerprints (for whatever the reason, lost arms/hands, no fingers, lost fingers, born that way, etc). Maybe a solution would be to accept the toe print?
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometric

Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:42 pm

HAJ uses electronic fingerprint scanners for airside access (there are two fingerprints stored in ther system, of which at least one is needed to match the ID badge to open the gate to airside. Actually a good idea, because, unlike a PIN number a fingerprint can´t be lost or easily given to somebody else).
The system worked well with the office people, but us maintenance techs, mechanics and engineers often either have stuff ile sealant or paint on our fingers (which can´t just be washed off, but takes a few days to disappear) or our fingertipps a ground smooth due to work. While normally the index fingers were standard, they had to use a ringfinger and a pinky in my case, since the scanner couldn´t recognise the other fingers.

Jan

[Edited 2009-09-03 12:43:27]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:21 pm



Quoting Avent (Reply 2):
Isn't this really a policy issue? Why is this a problem with biometrics?

It is both. The BoA employee should have refered the customer up the line until they could get someone with enough clout to void the fingerprint requirement in this instance. As to the biometrics problem, if you don't have hands what good is it unless as I asked the machine is capable of accepting a toe print in its place. I don't know that it can which is why I posed the question. Regardless someone wasn't thinking very far ahead when they developed the policy.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 3):
Maybe a solution would be to accept the toe print?

Does the machine take the toe print? Can it tell the difference between a toe and a finger if the original input is a toe print?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
avent
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 5):
Regardless someone wasn't thinking very far ahead when they developed the policy.

Therefore it was a policy issue.

Q.E.D.

'nuff said.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:30 pm



Quoting Avent (Reply 6):
Therefore it was a policy issue.

As well as a biometrics issue since if they had thought ahead they would have had the wherewithall to ask the biometrics people if their machines could handle a toe print which we still don't know if they can or not. If we find out they can then and only then is it not a problem with the biometrics machine.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Charles79
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:51 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 5):
Does the machine take the toe print? Can it tell the difference between a toe and a finger if the original input is a toe print?

As far as I know it doesn't matter whether you use a toe or a finger as long as you use the same one for future recognitions. But still in this case a little bit of humanity and rationality would have gone miles further.
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2026
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:12 am

 faint 

Must be the end of the world. I just agreed fully with a post by DXing!!!!

I'm going out to look for the four horsemen, and also see how the Apocalypse is affecting my local donut joint...
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 3702
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:05 am

This is not really about biometrics in general, but more about how institutions who use it forget to provide alternatives to their use for special cases like this one.

And it shouldn't be too hard. Banks have worked well without biometrics for ages. No excuses.

It makes you wonder what qualifications exactly are required to become a bank manager these days...  Yeah sure (and he probably makes more money than me... talk about lost opportunities.)
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
avent
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:18 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 10):
This is not really about biometrics in general, but more about how institutions who use it forget to provide alternatives to their use for special cases like this one.

Yeah, that's what I thought, but apparently the inability of fingerprint technology to work on people without arms is considered a problem with the technology. I suppose that cars can't fly should now also be considered a problem with the auto-industry.

Maybe there really was a failure in the specifications: the fingerprint technology manufacturer was asked to provide a fingerprint technology solution for both those with and without arms, and they failed to do so?  Wink
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:06 am

This is why I don't do business with Bank of America solely because of this thumbprint policy.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometric

Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:41 am

I think a person having no arms is a pretty distingiushing attribute. Nobody would voluntarely cut off his arms for committing a bank scam and I don´t think that there are too many people with the customer´s name and no arms around. This should suffice to confirm the identity of the customer. Additionally to the fingerprint menu on the computer should be a tick box for "Fingerprinting not possible" with short field for the explanation.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 21029
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:07 am



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Sometimes you just have to wonder where in the world common sense has disappeared too.

Problem with society today. Thick people in front line jobs. Its rife in every industry.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1444
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Common Sense Fails Again, The Prob W/biometrics

Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:46 am

Another good reason to dump biometrics. I had an option whether to take a biometric or non-biometric I.D. and I choose the non-biometric.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
I hope this guy wasn't a vet who lost his arms in battle. If he is, actually regardless if he is, shame on BOA and their employees for not finding a supervisor or manager no matter how high up the chain they had to go to remedy the situation.

Whether he was a veteran or not, it is a shame what they´ve done to him.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aesma, seb146 and 9 guests