texan
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Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:19 am

The logical extension of Prop 8 in California: ban divorce! Protect marriage! Love it! John + Four and Kate + Four = Sin

Texan
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kiwiandrew

RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:01 am

absolutely priceless - it will be interesting to see how many of the right wing loonies are crazy enough to vote for this ( or what their excuses would be for not voting for it )
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:40 pm

I'll vote for it!

Seriously, if that's what it takes to demonstrate how crazy the "Marriage is sacred" people, then I'll totally vote for it!

Let's show them how you REALLY legislate morality!
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Dreadnought
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:03 pm



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
absolutely priceless - it will be interesting to see how many of the right wing loonies are crazy enough to vote for this



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Seriously, if that's what it takes to demonstrate how crazy the "Marriage is sacred" people, then I'll totally vote for it!

Go for it if you like - I don't live there.

The fact is that divorce IS too easy in our society. Some people get bored once all the fireworks of a new relationship go out. Personally, I don't believe in divorce, but I wouldn't try to make that the law - it's a mental problem, the inability to stick with your commitments, a sort of narcissism.
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DocLightning
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:05 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):

The fact is that divorce IS too easy in our society. Some people get bored once all the fireworks of a new relationship go out. Personally, I don't believe in divorce, but I wouldn't try to make that the law - it's a mental problem, the inability to stick with your commitments, a sort of narcissism.

I agree with you, BUT... if you're going to beat your chest about how sacred marriage is, then this is the logical conclusion.

And I would love to see it pass.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:13 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
I agree with you, BUT... if you're going to beat your chest about how sacred marriage is, then this is the logical conclusion.

No it is not, because even if I think marriage is sacred, there are a few legitimate reasons for it - physical abuse, for example, which even the Catholic Church would agree to. This proposal does not make any such distinction.
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fca767
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:24 pm

Death doesn't part us anyway so they should change that...  Smile
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:29 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):

No it is not, because even if I think marriage is sacred, there are a few legitimate reasons for it - physical abuse, for example, which even the Catholic Church would agree to. This proposal does not make any such distinction.

In the LDS Church, you are married for all eternity, even if there's abuse or if a spouse dies, you are still married for all eternity, even though you can re-marry.

But I think that undermines the sacred state of marriage. If you, as a consenting adult, marry an abusive spouse, then you made that decision of your own free will and should live with it. After all, it is GOD'S law, not man's, right? We only should be legislating it!

(Yes, I'm being cheeky and a devil's advocate).
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:51 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
In the LDS Church, you are married for all eternity, even if there's abuse or if a spouse dies, you are still married for all eternity, even though you can re-marry.

And in Islam, you can have multiple wives. Why bring in the LDS?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
But I think that undermines the sacred state of marriage. If you, as a consenting adult, marry an abusive spouse, then you made that decision of your own free will and should live with it.

I know a couple of people like that - people who were on their best behaviour during courtship, and who change completely after the wedding. Let's face it, you can't really know somebody completely, even if you've known them for years. Things happen. And if it's bad enough, it should be a legitimate cause of "I'm outta here".

What I despise is the "I'm bored with him/her" kind of argument. Do people expect to be entertained their entire lives? Some do.
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757gb
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:20 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
What I despise is the "I'm bored with him/her" kind of argument. Do people expect to be entertained their entire lives? Some do.


 checkmark 
I very much agree with what you're saying. There are many situations in which a marriage becomes destructive, and divorce unfortunately is the only healthy route to follow. Yet we can't take it to the other extreme and treat marriage almost like a business partnership.

There are situations when one will have to care for the other even when all romance & fun are gone, maybe because of illness or what not. It really takes love & commitment to hold on. You've got to do the best you can. Then again, some situations will only destroy both parts and it's better to go separate ways. I just don't approve of taking marriage lightly and just letting go after getting bored or without a really meaningful reason.
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:27 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Why bring in the LDS?

Because that's where the major (financial) support for Prop 8 came from.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
or what their excuses would be for not voting for it

You didn't have to wait long:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Personally, I don't believe in divorce, but I wouldn't try to make that the law - it's a mental problem, the inability to stick with your commitments, a sort of narcissism.

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OA412
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:53 am

Oh good god! How funny would it be if this actually passed? The marriage rate in California will fall off a steep cliff.
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petertenthije
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:44 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
No it is not, because even if I think marriage is sacred, there are a few legitimate reasons for it - physical abuse, for example, which even the Catholic Church would agree to. This proposal does not make any such distinction.

Then get some kind of "morality police" to judge those cases. Seems to work in theocracies.  Wink
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LTU932
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:55 am

Am I the only one who feels reminded of the song "Every Sperm Is Sacred" from the film Monty Python's The Meaning Of Life?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:33 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Personally, I don't believe in divorce, but I wouldn't try to make that the law - it's a mental problem, the inability to stick with your commitments, a sort of narcissism.

Forget the arguments being made here about physical abuse. Suppose your partner deliberately conceals facts and/or lies about themselves before the marriage, in fact is at heart a liar, wouldn't someone be mentally ill to stay in that kind of a relationship?

Of course a more subtle version of this is that indeed it's impossible to truly know another person, so it's impossible to enter the commitment in good faith.

So maybe we should ban marriage for everyone?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
No it is not, because even if I think marriage is sacred, there are a few legitimate reasons for it - physical abuse, for example, which even the Catholic Church would agree to. This proposal does not make any such distinction.

Of course it does not, since it's all a big joke, but you knew that already....
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:42 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
Forget the arguments being made here about physical abuse. Suppose your partner deliberately conceals facts and/or lies about themselves before the marriage, in fact is at heart a liar, wouldn't someone be mentally ill to stay in that kind of a relationship?

Depends on what he/she is hiding. Some people hide things because of shame or remorse, like having been sexually abused. I found out stuffo f that sort about my wife years after we were married, and it didn't make me want to leave.

Now if you find out that your spouse has a secret life as a porn actor/actress while you are at work, that might be different (or rather cool, depending on your point of view  Wink)

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
Of course a more subtle version of this is that indeed it's impossible to truly know another person, so it's impossible to enter the commitment in good faith.

You can always go in in good faith.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
So maybe we should ban marriage for everyone?

Considering that we know for a fact that family life is a dramatic influence on the outcome of children, HELL NO.
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DocLightning
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:11 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):

Of course it does not, since it's all a big joke, but you knew that already....

Not to me. I'll be supporting this legislation. After all, it can't affect me, anyway. I *can't* get married!
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Tugger
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:35 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Considering that we know for a fact that family life is a dramatic influence on the outcome of children, HELL NO.

Agreed! A committed, married couple are the best situation within which to raise a child. There are plenty of "less than ideal" situations that turn out fine as well but we should always encourage people to commit to each other, to support each other "for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish, till death us do part". That is what everyone has been supporting, the key thing is the commitment to support and work with each other.

Marriage is not easy but is well worth it. I support marriage - for everyone brave enough and strong enough to enter into it. But they need to understand it is a commitment not to happiness and love, but to the union you create, to the person with whom you took vows, and to that special space within which you can build a strong family if you so choose.

Yes there are reasons to leave a marriage and these should always be allowed, and many people do so for good reason but nowadays too many just leave because of convenience or because they did not take the true meaning of marriage to heart when they entered into the union.

And THAT is what demeans and undermines marriage.

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signol
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:40 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
I *can't* get married!

Sure you can! Get on a plane to somewhere else with your other half and go home with the certificate  Wink

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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:02 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):

Considering that we know for a fact that family life is a dramatic influence on the outcome of children, HELL NO.

I have an idea: since the legal definition of marriage seems to do nothing to keep couples together but it does make a lot of money for a lot of lawyers, HELL YES.

Get rid of it! Allow domestic partnerships for legal arrangements only, and make those require a lot of pre-nups and well-thought-out planning.

And if you want to get married, nobody is going to ban priests from performing weddings, but they'll have no legal significance.

You don't need to be married to have a joint bank account and a bit of simple legislation can allow you to designate anyone on your health insurance.

I don't know about your relationship with your S.O., but mine exists of its own free will and irrespective of laws.
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:33 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Get rid of it! Allow domestic partnerships for legal arrangements only, and make those require a lot of pre-nups and well-thought-out planning.

And if you want to get married, nobody is going to ban priests from performing weddings, but they'll have no legal significance.

Actually I am in complete agreement with you.

You can pick youself off the floor now  Smile

Seriously, in many countries this is exactly how it is handled. I got married in Switzerland, and we had a civil wedding (civil union, if you will), performed at the town hall by the mayor. 2 days later we had the religious wedding at a church. A church will not marry you if you haven't done the civil ceremony first. Legally, all that is required is the civil union - the religious one is optional, though traditionally that is the one where you have all your guests and so forth.

I like it because it clarifies the seperation between church and state. I have always found the idea disturbing of granting state authority to a priest (or Elvis impersonator in Vegas) in the US. That lack of clarity is the cause, I think, of 99% of all the acrimony around gay marriage. I have no problem with gay civil unions. But the state shouldn't require priests to perform such weddings, as a condition of their state authority.
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Ken777
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:37 am

As an old fart who has been married 40 years (as of last April) I know I am one of the very lucky ones on this earth. Guess right the first time around and never looked back.

But then I understand that people change over the years. Your thinking in your 30's is different than in your 20s, and on and on. My blessing is that my wife and I pretty well stayed in sync over the years.

The one thin I can say is that it takes a lot of luck to find someone who you can comfortably grow old with. Comfort in addressing all the changes and challenges you go through in a marriage.

So I count my blessings and wish everyone could be as lucky. For those who are not, I try to understand.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:21 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):

The one thin I can say is that it takes a lot of luck to find someone who you can comfortably grow old with. Comfort in addressing all the changes and challenges you go through in a marriage.

Good on ya. I'm barely 7 months into my (hopefully) life-long relationship. So far, we're weathering an achilles tendon rupture well...

But banning divorce will make people think long and hard before getting hitched. I see it happening way too quickly and impulsively of late. And I'm not talking about Hollywood. I don't even pay attention to that stuff.

BTW, how long have the tabloids been predicting that Brad and Angelina are on the rocks? Since two days after their wedding?
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RE: Til Death Do Us Part . . . But You're Not Dead Yet

Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:36 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
Of course a more subtle version of this is that indeed it's impossible to truly know another person, so it's impossible to enter the commitment in good faith.

You can always go in in good faith.

Yes, but the penalty for getting it wrong is steep, emotionally and financially.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
I have an idea: since the legal definition of marriage seems to do nothing to keep couples together but it does make a lot of money for a lot of lawyers, HELL YES.

Get rid of it! Allow domestic partnerships for legal arrangements only, and make those require a lot of pre-nups and well-thought-out planning.

 checkmark 

We're on the same wavelength.

Seems many here who have positive thoughts of marriage have had the good luck of finding a good partner (and yes, done the hard work it takes to be a good partner themselves). But it doesn't always turn out the way it does in the story books.

Interestingly enough, I am divorced and my divorce went as well as such things can go: we did our own paperwork, split up our stuff and went our separate ways. No kids involved, no house to fight over, no alimony. But that "near miss" gave me a glimpse of what could have happened and it scared the bejeezus out of me.
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