CometII
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Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:18 am

Out of what, 200?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...ev00-1225779132520?from=public_rss

"Delegations from Argentina, Australia, Britain, Costa Rica, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, New Zealand and the United States left the room as Mr Ahmadinejad began to rail against Israel, a European source said.

Israel had already called for a boycott of the speech and was not present when the Iranian leader began his address. Canada had already said it would heed the boycott call.

In his address, Mr Ahmadinejad again took aim at Israel without mentioning the country or Jews by name, referring only to the "Zionist regime".


I guess Mr. Mahmoud has yet to speak clearly on what he really believes. Maybe next time more countries will walkout on a man that has no quarrels in killing the Iranian people, threatens Jews with extermination, and kills westerners in their own countries through terrorism.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:37 am



Quoting CometII (Thread starter):


I guess Mr. Mahmoud has yet to speak clearly on what he really believes. Maybe next time more countries will walkout on a man that has no quarrels in killing the Iranian people, threatens Jews with extermination, and kills westerners in their own countries through terrorism.

You know, it's amazing. It's a country of intellectuals who have written some of the greatest philosophy in all of humankind. It's a country of engineers who can keep 747-200's in mint condition. It's a country of artists whose works are among the most awesome in the world. I know many Persians, both Iranians and others and they always amaze me. They are the most beautiful people, physically and mentally, that I have ever met.

Why can't they get a decent government? If they can pull so much together, why can't they pull together a revolution?
-Doc Lightning-

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N104UA
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:42 am

Well I would walk out on someone too if they became "President" by fraudulent means.
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Springbok747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:46 am

More proof that the UN is a big joke. And these rants by Ahmedjihad is really getting tiresome. What an idiot, along with Qadaffi, we got a real nice show today.
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babybus
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:18 am

Good job no one walked out. that would look a bit childish in an adult audience.

You have to listen first, then think and then respond. Walking out is not an acceptable method of showing disgust, especially in front of other nations.

Everyone is allowed to say what they want to say.
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:26 am



Quoting Babybus (Reply 4):

You have to listen first, then think and then respond. Walking out is not an acceptable method of showing disgust, especially in front of other nations.

Sorry I disagree since the election in Iran was a fraud and Ahamdinejad wasn't fairly elected.
 
TheCol
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:27 am



Quoting Babybus (Reply 4):
Good job no one walked out.

There were a number of delegates that walked out or did not show up.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 4):
You have to listen first, then think and then respond. Walking out is not an acceptable method of showing disgust, especially in front of other nations.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Walking out is sending the message that we will not sit by and allow Ahmadinejad to propagate hatred and prejudice. The UN was created as a means of defense against genocide, not to allow a nation to deny or justify it.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
sebolino
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:50 am

Unfortunately, walking away doesn't help much. It would perhaps be interesting that some countries answer to him. But honestly, what is the purpose of such speeches ? It will convince nobody which is not already convinced.
 
babybus
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:52 am



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
Sorry I disagree since the election in Iran was a fraud and Ahamdinejad wasn't fairly elected.

Is there evidence to support this or are we relying on newspaper reports?

My concern is with correct avenues of diplomacy in an adult environment.
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pelican
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:09 am



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
Sorry I disagree since the election in Iran was a fraud and Ahamdinejad wasn't fairly elected.

By that standard those delegations would have to walk out regularly. The majority of the countries in the UN have leaders who weren't elected according to the lowest democratic standards.

pelican
 
N1120A
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:16 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

Why can't they get a decent government? If they can pull so much together, why can't they pull together a revolution?

They did. Three times. Unfortunately, the West was no help.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):

Sorry I disagree since the election in Iran was a fraud and Ahamdinejad wasn't fairly elected.

Should people have walked out of every US delegation speech from 2001-2004?
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RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:24 am

There's no point in pretending that the guy doesn't exist. Whether or not he came to power legitimately, whether or not you agree with what the guy says, he is the President of Iran. I think we've already established that shunning governments doesn't actually do anything except give them ammo. Cutting people off really doesn't help.
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N1120A
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:26 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
I think we've already established that shunning governments doesn't actually do anything except give them ammo. Cutting people off really doesn't help.

Exactly. This is what has kept that regime in power for 30 years.
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TheCol
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:58 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
There's no point in pretending that the guy doesn't exist.

I think President Obama addressed him, and Iran, pretty clearly. Prime Minister Harper also has said a few words about the boycott:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BZbkzcgn0o&feature=related

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
Cutting people off really doesn't help.

Nobody is cutting Iran off, though the UN has an obligation to deny the legitimacy of statements made by members who deny or justify genocide.

[Edited 2009-09-25 02:02:52]
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MillwallSean
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:00 am

The problem with Iran is that the only democratically and non theocratic pm they have had, the west, the Brits and the Americans to be exact, made sure to get rid of through a military coup.

Instead electing to set up a regime headed by the Shah, a very corrupt regime that quickly made sure that the British and American oilcompanies gained control over most of Irans oil. Many Iranians remember this.
So Bush Jr wasn't the first going for the oil of the Middle East, many has gone before him...

I actually doubt the Iranians are to keen on further western "help".
China, Russia or another country deemed less partial by the Iranians might be able to assist and broker some form of relationship between Iran and the western world hopefully.
Why Ahmedinejad is constantly threatening and provoking I don't understand. His fixation with Israel seems almost manic and although I am sure he speaks to a very receptive audience in the Middle East I really wonder what he think he can gain from pursuing a collision course with the west.
Getting Iran bombed in the end and what use is that?
Propaganda victory in the Middle East perhaps.

Whether the present president won fair or not is impossible for us to know. But no matter who won, we should remember that the other candidate and his allies ruled Iran during the late 1990:ies and early 2000.
Its not like we are choosing between two very different candidates here. One is conservative, he apparently lost, and the other is ultra conservative, he won.

We should also remember that bush for instance called Iran under the loosing group for "axis of evil".
So despite us all screaming for the conservatives this time, it might be good to remember that we had the chance to work with them 8 years ago.
We weren't interested.

Now our disinterest probably helped Mr Ahmedinejad win his first election, not the first nor the last mistake committed in the Middle East during the yearly part of this century...
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RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:43 am



Quoting TheCol (Reply 13):
Nobody is cutting Iran off


Long years of sanctions suggest otherwise.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 13):
though the UN has an obligation to deny the legitimacy of statements made by members who deny or justify genocide.

Yes, but that is not achieved through boycotts and walking out.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:11 am



Quoting Babybus (Reply 4):
You have to listen first, then think and then respond. Walking out is not an acceptable method of showing disgust, especially in front of other nations.

Everyone is allowed to say what they want to say.

I fully agree.

For one I do not believe what the MSM in the US and the EU are telling about the Iranian elections.

Ghadafy and Mr A. are allowed to deliver speeches at the UN just as much as any other heads of State.

Quote Mr A. at the UN
"It is not acceptable that some who are several thousands of kilometers away from the Middle East would send their troops for military intervention and for spreading war, bloodshed, aggression, terror and intimidation in the whole region while blaming the protests of nations in the region," he said. "The bombing in Afghanistan and Palestine have never stopped."

"It is not acceptable that the United Nations and the Security Council, whose decisions must represent all nations and governments by the application of the most democratic methods in their decision making processes, be dominated by a few opinions should be the determining factors, the continuation of the present situation is impossible, and fundamental changes seem to be unavoidable," he said.

It is pretty shameful when the United States delegation walks out during the speech.
Americans should have their UN representatives fired.

And also shows you how disrespectful all these countries are that walk out without at least hearing the man!!!

If this was a work meeting and we walked out, we would be FIRED!!!
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directorguy
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:33 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):

You're completely right. Although I don't exactly approve of Ahmedinijad's stance on Israel, he has made some valid points that get lost in the shuffle, I suppose. The tragedy is, he makes some valid criticisms (even if they're hypocritical) but then goes on to bring the Holocaust into the whole thing, reducing his credibility.
I think that we would all do well to get off our PC high horses and listen before judging.
 
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par13del
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:47 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
If this was a work meeting and we walked out, we would be FIRED!!!

And you would also be fired for saying some of the things he said you may not even be allowed to finish before security threw you out, so its half of one half of the other, same difference.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:51 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 18):
And you would also be fired for saying some of the things he said


Like what for example?

I am going to facilitate your task by providing you with a full transcript of the Iranian President's speech. I just want exerpts from his UN speech, nothing else.

http://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.c...t-the-un-general-assembly-9-23-09/

[Edited 2009-09-25 06:45:07]
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Birdwatching
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:03 pm



Quoting N104UA (Reply 2):
Well I would walk out on someone too if they became "President" by fraudulent means.

So you would have walked out on George Bush?
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:37 pm



Quoting Babybus (Reply 8):

Is there evidence to support this or are we relying on newspaper reports?

Newspaper reports are better than most other sources coming from Iran I'd say.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):

By that standard those delegations would have to walk out regularly. The majority of the countries in the UN have leaders who weren't elected according to the lowest democratic standards.

I know. That's why a delegation consisting only of countries where true democracy exists should be created I think.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Should people have walked out of every US delegation speech from 2001-2004?

Do you believe they should?
 
RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 21):
Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):

By that standard those delegations would have to walk out regularly. The majority of the countries in the UN have leaders who weren't elected according to the lowest democratic standards.

I know. That's why a delegation consisting only of countries where true democracy exists should be created I think.

So let me get this straight - you advocate excluding those countries who by definition tend to have the most serious problems from world fora? That doesn't sound like a partiularly convincing recipe for world progress, which is basically the UN's stated reason for existence. The fact that many countries have governments who came to power through non-democratic means indicates that they require greater engagement to resolve their problems - not less.
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babybus
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:51 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 21):
That's why a delegation consisting only of countries where true democracy exists should be created I think.

When you think about it, aren't all countries really democracies? If the people didn't like the leader or what was happening they would revolt.

These leaders do not operate in isolation. There are always other competing families ready and willing to take their place. There are traitors waiting in the army, police, civil service both inside and outside the country.

The status quo enforced must be acceptable to the majority or else these leaders would find their position untenable. There is no easy ride in this world.
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RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:00 pm



Quoting Babybus (Reply 23):
When you think about it, aren't all countries really democracies? If the people didn't like the leader or what was happening they would revolt.

It's not really that simple. As long as influence and power is concentrated in the correct hands then the larger population can be broadly ignored. Take care of the right sections of society to ensure effective repression, keep people scared enough with harsh and summary justice, embellished with a good measure of extra-judiciary violence, and there you have it - a population too frightened to do anything except obey.
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:01 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 22):
So let me get this straight - you advocate excluding those countries who by definition tend to have the most serious problems from world fora? That doesn't sound like a partiularly convincing recipe for world progress, which is basically the UN's stated reason for existence. The fact that many countries have governments who came to power through non-democratic means indicates that they require greater engagement to resolve their problems - not less.

I am not saying the UN should not exist. I'm saying there should be created another delegation of countries with democracy along the UN.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 23):
When you think about it, aren't all countries really democracies? If the people didn't like the leader or what was happening they would revolt.

Try saying that to the people of North Korea.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:03 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 25):
I am not saying the UN should not exist. I'm saying there should be created another delegation of countries with democracy along the UN.

A two-tier system of international relations might seem a nice idea on the face of it, but is basically flawed. It would only increase alienation and provide plenty of propaganda opportunites about how 'they' are plotting against 'us'.
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DocLightning
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:09 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 21):

I know. That's why a delegation consisting only of countries where true democracy exists should be created I think.

The United States wouldn't like that. Our electoral system is somewhat less reliable than those of a few other countries.
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:09 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 26):
A two-tier system of international relations might seem a nice idea on the face of it, but is basically flawed. It would only increase alienation and provide plenty of propaganda opportunites about how 'they' are plotting against 'us'.

Perhaps, but the UN as it is now as flawed as well. I don't see the point of a guy like Ahmadinejad allowed to make a speech at the UN, when he's made statements publicly denying that the holocaust ever existed. I don't see what good such a comment will ever do to contribute to the international community.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
The United States wouldn't like that. Our electoral system is somewhat less reliable than those of a few other countries.

There's room for improvement...  



[Edited 2009-09-25 08:59:50]
 
travelexec
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 pm



Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 20):

Quoting N104UA (Reply 2):
Well I would walk out on someone too if they became "President" by fraudulent means.

So you would have walked out on George Bush?

Close to the bone, but pertinent... on that basis, the 50% of Americans that believe that GWB did no actually win the 2000 election would expect foreign nations to up and leave when he addressed them...
 
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par13del
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:57 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 19):

Ah in your work place example you are being specific to this particular speech, I'll retract my portion of your example and leave well enough alone.

Cheers
 
RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:30 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):
Perhaps, but the UN as it is now as flawed as well

It is, but it's the best that we have at the moment.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):
I don't see the point of a guy like Ahmadinejad allowed to make a speech at the UN, when he's made statements publicly denying that the holocaust ever existed

Like it or not, he is the President of a member state. That is the point. Everyone is allowed to state their view at the UN, no matter how unpalatable - that is part of the reason the organisation is there. His is an extreme view, but part and parcel of the UN is hearing what those you disagree with have to say.
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DocLightning
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:47 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):


There's room for improvement...

To put it mildly...
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Mortyman
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:54 pm

Walking out, putting ones heads in the sand, thinking that it solves problems, is childish and is of no help.

Instead, the countries delegates should walk up and state their opinion face to face.

Norway's foreign minister has done so several times when others have walked out. It proabably makes no difference to Iran, but atleast we are not giving Iran any further bones in which it can score points on.
 
slider
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:54 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):
Perhaps, but the UN as it is now as flawed as well.

Flawed?

It’s flat-out broken. Non-functional. A den of terrorists, thieves and rogue states that get more face time, speaking time and thusly, media coverage and implied credibility through this misplaced attention than they deserve.

Nothing the UN does surprises me anymore. It stands by and watches genocide happen under its very nose, engages in corruption, pontificates against the West, allows nations to stand on human rights councils who don’t acknowledge much less support true liberal human rights.

And it condones the transparent meanderings of El Baradei and his commission who have abjectly failed and now everyone feigns shock and surprise that Iran is going nuclear? And then give its whackjob leader open forum? Along with Gaddafi? Give me a break.

The UN is bullshit. End this farce now.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:04 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
The UN is bullshit. End this farce now.

The UN is only ever going to be as good as people make it. Let's be honest - many countries have not done their best by the UN but then go out of their way to bash it when, surprise surprise, it doesn't function very effectively. We can't have it both ways.
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:11 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
Everyone is allowed to state their view at the UN, no matter how unpalatable - that is part of the reason the organisation is there. His is an extreme view, but part and parcel of the UN is hearing what those you disagree with have to say.

Well that is exactly the point with a different group of nations with democracies.

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):

It’s flat-out broken. Non-functional. A den of terrorists, thieves and rogue states that get more face time, speaking time and thusly, media coverage and implied credibility through this misplaced attention than they deserve.

  

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):

The UN is bullshit. End this farce now.

I think the idea behind the UN is good, so I think it should remain, but it needs to be changed in some ways. Leaders that just want to spread hatred without constructive solutions shouldn't be allowed. They can do that back where whereever they come from.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 33):

Instead, the countries delegates should walk up and state their opinion face to face.

Acutally that is comparable to arguing with a spoiled child that won't listen anyway. Better to ignore the child instead of feeding it with more attention I think.

[Edited 2009-09-25 10:13:52]
 
N104UA
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:30 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
Quoting Babybus (Reply 4):

You have to listen first, then think and then respond. Walking out is not an acceptable method of showing disgust, especially in front of other nations.

Sorry I disagree since the election in Iran was a fraud and Ahamdinejad wasn't fairly elected.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Babybus (Reply 4):
You have to listen first, then think and then respond. Walking out is not an acceptable method of showing disgust, especially in front of other nations.

Everyone is allowed to say what they want to say.

Everyone is allowed their say but countries that walk out are showing that they will not support this hate.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 8):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
Sorry I disagree since the election in Iran was a fraud and Ahamdinejad wasn't fairly elected.

Is there evidence to support this or are we relying on newspaper reports

Well when there were more votes for Ahamdinejad in a town then people in the town I smell fraud

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 20):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 2):
Well I would walk out on someone too if they became "President" by fraudulent means.

So you would have walked out on George Bush?

He did not cheat with stuffing ballot boxes but I was no fan of GWB and I do believe that Al Gore was elected president. But in short I would say No but there are many factors to that answer as an American I do respect the office of the president but if he stuffed ballot boxes I would say yes
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
slider
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:00 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 35):
The UN is only ever going to be as good as people make it. Let's be honest - many countries have not done their best by the UN but then go out of their way to bash it when, surprise surprise, it doesn't function very effectively. We can't have it both ways.

It has nothing to do with wanting it both ways. I ask you: what is the purpose of the UN? If you can answer that for me cogently, I’ll buy the first round. And I’d disagree that it’ll ever be as good as people WANT it to be. It’s intentionally steered and run by totalitarians. Doesn’t anyone ever wonder why the Secretaries General have all been socialist totalitarians? Never from Western nations, hell, even the first one, Alger Hiss, should have been a red flag.

Does no one just laugh out loud at the irony that the very concept of democratic participation is being used against the democratic nations by those nations that refuse to acknowledge some other countries’ mere existence? Or that women have rights? If that’s the “both ways” you’re referring to, you’re right—you cannot have it both ways. Because, and this will be grossly unpopular with some of you, NOT all nations are the same. Nor should they be treated the same. You want a voice and a seat at the table? Don’t be a douchebag. All nations screw up, but you CANNOT give free rein and platform to those who stand COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of what the very UN charter allegedly supports.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 36):
I think the idea behind the UN is good, so I think it should remain, but it needs to be changed in some ways. Leaders that just want to spread hatred without constructive solutions shouldn't be allowed. They can do that back where whereever they come from.

Exactly right. I don’t disagree with the concept of the UN, even though it’s a fool’s errand and it’s grown to the point of being a corrupt bureaucracy not interested in peace and the advancement of people. The UN’s laundry list of scandal and corruption is impossible to even defend by the most ardent peaceniks. From oil-for-food to child sex trafficking, procurement & contracts bribes, money laundering, and on and on, it never stops. Additionally, the UN ignores world history if they think that giving a forum to tinpot dictators, terrorists and rogue states AND equalizing them with free societies is a way toward global peace and understanding.

The UN can’t stand up to Chavez, Gaddafi or Ahmedinajad, much less did they ever do anything about the Soviets, China or anyone else. Hundreds of millions have died under UN’s watch, while they stood by doing nothing. From Tibet, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Rwanda, Darfur, to the tanks rolling into Hungary, the UN did nothing. They’ve placated barbarians, empowered tyrants, emboldened communists and statists, and done so at the expense of weakening the very Western nations that, for all their own faults, provide the protection against the evil the UN decries.

It’s a mean, shitty world that’s always had wars, injustice, inequality, and always will. I think it’s all noble and well and good that we strive toward peace but you don’t do it by immersing in a sort of moral relativism that gives identical stake to one as it does to another. This limp-wristed kumbaya stuff isn’t borne out in history and you cannot change human nature. I for one am tired of everyone claiming that the poor downtrodden nations that continually are repressed for whatever reason need endless welfare handouts and well-meaning UN programs that do nothing to materially change things (except to assuage some nations Westernized guilt over their prosperity, of which they should never feel guilty about). I’m weary of the overreaction and misplaced agenda that says if those nations don’t get a voice that wars and greater injustices will occur. The UN’s own track record would tell you that whatever their tack is, it’s not working, hasn’t worked and will only cultivate MORE not less angst, anger and tension until the point that, IMO, the very organization that allegedly exists to foment peace actually contributes to the outbreak of a wholly untenable agenda and eventually outright hostility.

Finally, what is the fundamental problem I have with the United Nations is that it abdicates our own nation’s sovereignty. If that were the ONLY reason to leave, it’s more than sufficient.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:11 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 38):
Doesn’t anyone ever wonder why the Secretaries General have all been socialist totalitarians? Never from Western nations

Like Dag Hammarskjold? Kurt Waldheim? I never thought of Sweden or Austria as totaliarian, non-western states. How about the present SG - Ban Ki Moon? To apply that description to Kofi Annan would also be pretty inaccurate. To say they have all been socialist totalitarians is quite a stretch.

Quoting Slider (Reply 38):
what is the purpose of the UN?

Quite simply, it is intended to be a forum for world issues and international relations to be aired, and as far as possible a place where an international consensus on how to deal with the can be reached. Whether or not any of this is actually achieved is a different matter.
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slider
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:01 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
Like Dag Hammarskjold? Kurt Waldheim? I never thought of Sweden or Austria as totaliarian, non-western states. How about the present SG - Ban Ki Moon? To apply that description to Kofi Annan would also be pretty inaccurate. To say they have all been socialist totalitarians is quite a stretch.

Dag Hammarsskjold was a Swedish socialist. Waldheim a former Nazi for crissakes. Trygve Lie was a Norwegian socialist, U Thant was a Marxist from Burma, deCuellar a Peruvian socialist and Boutros-Ghali an Egyptian one.

They all share the same DNA.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
Quite simply, it is intended to be a forum for world issues and international relations to be aired, and as far as possible a place where an international consensus on how to deal with the can be reached.

So it IS a Coffee House and Debating Club! My descriptor has been accurate after all!

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
Whether or not any of this is actually achieved is a different matter.

I’m glad you made that distinction, because this is the critical point here. In terms of RESULTS, the answer is not much. One could argue they’ve inflicted more misery than solves problems in fact.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:41 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 38):
The UN can’t stand up to Chavez, Gaddafi or Ahmedinajad, much less did they ever do anything about the Soviets, China or anyone else. Hundreds of millions have died under UN’s watch, while they stood by doing nothing.

I agree. I think what has the biggest impact on world peace and understanding between cultures are websites like facebook and youtube. Websites like those probably have more power than any nation, and hopefully they will contribute to spreading democracy around the world way more effectively than the UN could ever do.
 
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:54 pm

The Iranian elite maintain power through terror, seeing those 'militia' at work a few months ago showed that.
Recruited young, uneducated and ignorant types preferred, indoctrinate them, the more thuggish the better, better yet, thuggish and woman hating.

But it's a complex regime with as we've seen, splits and factions galore, a highly chaotic system which partly explains why an oil rich nations has fuel shortages.
The place with great traditions of learning, with much of the power in the hands of those who propagate ignorance.

It cannot last, it will not last, they teetered badly in June/July.
A massive young population, increasingly fed up with the petty, nasty, stupid restrictions on normal life.

As for that jumped Goat-herder as President, his record on what he was in 2005 elected (probably genuinely that time), tacking the economic problems, is worse than useless.
Wonder why he's falling back on fear and repulsive conspiracy theories?
The (bloody) history of leaders doing that is clear, in the end, it does not save them.

He is making Iran more and more isolated, even it seems the Russians have had enough.

I for one am glad the UK people walked out, some British people are still alive who liberated the Belsen death camp.
Next time put some remaining Nazi death camp survivors in the front row.

It's worth remembering that the mass movement that got rid of the Shah, was not by any means wholly made up of the types who now rule Iran.
In the chaos, they effectively staged a coup.
 
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OA412
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:19 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 38):
Doesn’t anyone ever wonder why the Secretaries General have all been socialist totalitarians? Never from Western nations



Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
Dag Hammarsskjold was a Swedish socialist. Waldheim a former Nazi for crissakes. Trygve Lie was a Norwegian socialist,

You initially claim that none have come from Western nations then you go on and name 3 Secretaries general from 3 different Western nations. Seriously?  scratchchin 

Oh and by the way you do realize that there is an enormous difference between the 'socialism' practiced in Sweden and Norway and that practiced in totalitarian regimes right?
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RussianJet
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:26 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
Dag Hammarsskjold was a Swedish socialist. Waldheim a former Nazi for crissakes. Trygve Lie was a Norwegian socialist, U Thant was a Marxist from Burma, deCuellar a Peruvian socialist and Boutros-Ghali an Egyptian one.

They all share the same DNA.

Seriously? Come on. You said totalitarians and not from western countries - clearly not true.

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
So it IS a Coffee House and Debating Club! My descriptor has been accurate after all!

Not really. Talk is essential to begin resolving problems, but I stand by my original point that the UN can only be as good as the sum of its parts, particularly in terms of transforming the talk into action.
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PPVRA
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:44 pm



Quoting Babybus (Reply 4):
Walking out is not an acceptable method of showing disgust, especially in front of other nations.



Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
Unfortunately, walking away doesn't help much. It would perhaps be interesting that some countries answer to him.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):



Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Walking out flies in the face of why the UN was set up to begin with. It's absolutely shameful and childish behavior of the countries that walked out.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:48 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 45):
Walking out flies in the face of why the UN was set up to begin with. It's absolutely shameful and childish behavior of the countries that walked out.

I disagree as stated above. What I find childish is taking advantage of an opportunity to talk at the UN to spread nothing but hatred.
 
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:02 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46):
I disagree as stated above. What I find childish is taking advantage of an opportunity to talk at the UN to spread nothing but hatred.

Was his entire speech really 'nothing but hatred'? I don't think so somehow. The guy has, to put it mildly, some extreme views. However, he has more to say than just the well-known attacks on Israel. He is rightly condemned for expressing the distasteful views that he does, but dismissing everything else he says because of them is not wise or constructive.
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TheCol
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:07 pm

The same people crying foul in this this thread would be singing a different tune if it was Israel certain countries were boycotting or walking out on. This is the whole reason behind the UN being an infective organization. As long as the international community is going to continue to grant legitimacy and credibility to oppressive regimes to satisfy various personal agendas, the UN will remain a useless organization.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
And also shows you how disrespectful all these countries are that walk out without at least hearing the man!!!

You talk of disrespect, yet you grant credibility to an entire tirade of BS and hypocrisy by guy that doesn't believe a word of it himself, represents a regime that has absolutely no respect for human rights, supports terrorist organizations, and associates with those who justify and try to cover-up the massacre of 6 million people. How can you, as a regular voice against violations of human rights, possibly live with that?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 33):
putting ones heads in the sand

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? There hasn't been a day that's gone by in the past week without a country making some kind of statement about Iran.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 33):
Instead, the countries delegates should walk up and state their opinion face to face.

The entire UN should have voiced their contempt and thrown Ahmadinejad out on his ass.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 33):
Iran any further bones in which it can score points on.

Iran is in the dog house. They have no way of scoring any points with anybody other than their fellow human rights abusers.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Only 12 Countries Walked Out On Ahmadinejad

Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:12 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):

Was his entire speech really 'nothing but hatred'?

Well if not hatred, then a lot of accusations that are just baseless and outright insane.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
The guy has, to put it mildly, some extreme views.

You got that right...

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
He is rightly condemned for expressing the distasteful views that he does, but dismissing everything else he says because of them is not wise or constructive.

Yes, but the outrageous accusations he comes up with unfortunately overshadows his other point of views.

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