na
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19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:26 pm

A (now) 19 year old murderer, who raped, beat and killed an 8 year old girl in Leipzig/Gerrmany last year has been sentenced to a very moderate 9 1/2 years imprisonment today (under the German youth law the highest sentence is 10 years, and he´s under it because he is, mentally and physically, behind his age). The case made huge headlines in Germany last year.

Der Spiegel says its a high sentence, hmm. He´ll be out of prison before he turns 30. They´d better thoroughly check him before he can get out.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,652824,00.html
http://de.news.yahoo.com/1/20091002/...-muss-lange-ins-gefng-8b73c05.html
 
GQfluffy
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:40 pm

Sounds like a Death Penalty would be useful over there. Too bad the EU is a tad bit liberal in that regard.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2

Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:54 pm

He was tried by juvenile law because he was below 18 when he committed the crime. Maximium punishment for murder acc. to German juvenile law is 10 years (years ago the German supreme court ruled that the purpose of juvenile law is less punishment, but betterment, unlike adult law, which in extreme cases can punish a murderer with life without parole).
Also the punishment was reduced by 6 months because the accused made a full confession.
On the other hand I´m quite sure that, even if he finishes his 9 1/2 years, he won´t just be released. In his special case it has to be determined if he is still a danger to society. If yes, at the end of his prison term he might be transfered to a forensic mental institution to be locked away.

Jan

[Edited 2009-10-02 13:55:07]
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racko
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:58 pm

This does not mean that he will get out after 9 years, he will probably get "Sicherheitsverwahrung" once he is over 21.
 
Sabena332
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:08 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
On the other hand I´m quite sure that, even if he finishes his 9 1/2 years, he won´t just be released.

I hope so. This is another crime beyond believe. The little girl trusted him (because they knew each other), she followed him into his apartment, then he forced her to drink alcohol, raped her several times, punched her and broke out several teeth, broke several of her ribs, strangled her to death, and trew her body into a lake.

I hope that he falls down some stairs while being in prison. It is completely beyond me how someone can do things like that, simply disgusting that guy!

Patrick
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na
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:05 am



Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 5):
I hope that he falls down some stairs while being in prison. It is completely beyond me how someone can do things like that, simply disgusting that guy!

Cases like this make me wonder why we shouldnt introduce special uncomfortable prisons where those pigs have to work hard twelve hours a day for the family they have caused so much pain. Not bootcamp pressure, just very hard, dirty work to wear them out. Sum like him should be made responsible to pay for the parents of the child he killed until the day he dies or they die.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 1):
Sounds like a Death Penalty would be useful over there. Too bad the EU is a tad bit liberal in that regard.

No way. Thank god the vast majority is against death penalty. Man should not kill man. A TOUGHLY handled life imprisonment is anyway a stronger punishment than hanging. If anything, they should not make it too difficult for them if such scum wants to commit suicide.
 
sudden
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:24 am



Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 5):
The little girl trusted him (because they knew each other), she followed him into his apartment, then he forced her to drink alcohol, raped her several times, punched her and broke out several teeth, broke several of her ribs, strangled her to death, and trew her body into a lake.

I'm lost for words. How a human(?) can become this sick goes way above my head. The terror this little girl had to go through before she were left with 2 little wings must have been beyond what all of us can imagine all together.
My daughter is 6 years old and you then start to think.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:31 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 8):
I'm lost for words. How a human(?) can become this sick goes way above my head. The terror this little girl had to go through before she were left with 2 little wings must have been beyond what all of us can imagine all together.

Very well said.

I think that short of murdering a person, rape is the absolute worst thing a human being can do to another. And I think the punishments are not nearly severe enough.

I don't know how it works in Germany, but typical "prison mentality" around the US seems to dictate he'll reap what he sowed by the other inmates...
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AverageUser
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:06 am

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
A (now) 19 year old murderer, who raped, beat and killed an 8 year old girl in Leipzig/Gerrmany last year has been sentenced to a very moderate 9 1/2 years imprisonment today (under the German youth law the highest sentence is 10 years,

So a maximum sentence allowed by the law in force, in other words. Minus the 6 months for a confession. Are you saying there's been a miscarriage of justice?

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):

I don't know how it works in Germany, but typical "prison mentality" around the US seems to dictate he'll reap what he sowed by the other inmates

Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals.

Quoting NA (Reply 7):
If anything, they should not make it too difficult for them if such scum wants to commit suicide.

A "Baader-Meinhof" type of event or a normal suicide?
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:55 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 8):
Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals.

Generally civilized people don't make up the prison population in most countries of the world.
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WarRI1
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:18 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 8):
Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals

After being convicted of a terrible crime, and after the appeals process is finished, he should be executed. That is not lynching. He serves no purpose on this earth, he ended that little girls time on this earth. He brought untold misery to her family. He does not deserve to exist.
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signol
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:26 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):

Does your country execute minors?

In this case, he received the maximum penalty under the national law. If the local population wish to change their law, they have the parliamentary means to do so.

signol
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:36 am



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
Does your country execute minors?

Not unless they are tried as adults. And a "minor" constitutes those younger than 18.
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WarRI1
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:38 am



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
In this case, he received the maximum penalty under the national law. If the local population wish to change their law, they have the parliamentary means to do so.

I agree with your statement, but not about their laws. Too lenient for me. A minor can be tried as an adult, so it is possible and has happened in the past as far as I know.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2

Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:52 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 12):
Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
Does your country execute minors?

Not unless they are tried as adults. And a "minor" constitutes those younger than 18.

He was 17 when he committed the crime. This is all that counts.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
In this case, he received the maximum penalty under the national law. If the local population wish to change their law, they have the parliamentary means to do so.

I agree with your statement, but not about their laws. Too lenient for me. A minor can be tried as an adult, so it is possible and has happened in the past as far as I know.

In Germany, if you are below 18 when you commit a crime, you´ll get mandatorily tried by juvenile law. This can even apply to people who commit a crime up to the age of 21 when a psychatric evaluation proves that their mental age is that of a teenager (below 18).
In any case, what happened was the German equivalent of a plea bargain (we don´t have "pleading guilty" or "pleading innocent"). The guy confessed his crime, basically pleading guilty, and as a bargain received 6 months less than the maximum sentence, because he saved the court from spending months going through all the evidence.

Jan

[Edited 2009-10-03 20:53:47]
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sudden
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:24 am

That said,

Will this "person" enjoy the luxury of a new identity, a new home in a new country etc., paid with tax money that comes from this little girls parents, when he will be released? How does the German law work in regards to that?

His time in prison might be short, but after he has been released, he can never walk the street feeling safe for the rest of his life. So in a way he serving lifetime. I can only hope (sad to actually be thinking this) that someone will hunt him down when he comes out of jail.

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DocLightning
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:12 pm



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):

Does your country execute minors?

I believe that in Texas, you could be executed if you committed murder as a teenager. Not sure about that, though.
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AirframeAS
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:02 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
I believe that in Texas, you could be executed if you committed murder as a teenager.

Even in Texas, even if one did not do the actual murders but was present during the murder, person can also be executed for not stopping the crime. It has happened before many, many times.
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Danfearn77
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:33 pm

When i read the thread title i fully expected this to be in the UK. Were used to this sort of slack sentancing over here.

Terrible...
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Mir
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:39 pm



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):

Does your country execute minors?

Yes we do, unfortunately.

We'll see what happens in 9.5 years with this guy, whether he's actually ready to get out or not.

-Mir
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AverageUser
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:30 pm



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 8):
Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals.

Generally civilized people don't make up the prison population in most countries of the world.

Someone has said prison population is 1/3 bad, 1/3 sad, and 1/3 mad, I feel there's a lot of truth to it.

In the U.S. prison sentences are used as a means of combined social policy and racial control in a fashion that's quite exceptional among the industrialised western nations in its extent.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):

Even in Texas, even if one did not do the actual murders but was present during the murder, person can also be executed for not stopping the crime. It has happened before many, many times.

I don't buy into that folklore at all. Even Texas has some justice left.




Quoting Sudden (Reply 15):
His time in prison might be short, but after he has been released, he can never walk the street feeling safe for the rest of his life. So in a way he serving lifetime. I can only hope (sad to actually be thinking this) that someone will hunt him down when he comes out of jail.

There must be a sort of social gratification in this lynch-the-scum mentality, which I reckon is very rare in Sweden in the open in general.
 
sudden
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:22 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 20):
There must be a sort of social gratification in this lynch-the-scum mentality, which I reckon is very rare in Sweden in the open in general.

I haven't lived in Sweden for many years, so would not be able to give a fair answer to that.  Wink

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AirframeAS
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:08 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 20):
I don't buy into that folklore at all. Even Texas has some justice left.

Participating in a crime, even if you are not the actual murderer, can still get you the death penalty. And there are people on death row right now, in Texas, that did not even commit murder but were participants to said crime. Just ask anyone in law enforcement in Texas and they will tell you just that. The only way to avoid earning yourself a spot on death row in Texas is to prove that you tried to stop the crime in progress. That is pretty hard to prove.

You don't need to be a murderer, in Texas, to earn yourself a spot on Death Row.

It is not even folklore. That is how it is in Texas, no matter how screwed up that can be. Why do you think Texas is the Death Penalty Capital of the world?? Think about it.

[Edited 2009-10-04 14:09:46]
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AirframeAS
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:27 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 20):

A clue for you, AverageUser: Look up the Law of Parties in Texas and it'll tell you exactly what I've been saying....

I found this here...

http://deathpenaltyblog.dallasnews.c...9/08/conspiracylaw-of-parties.html

Quoting Texas Death Penalty Article (Reply website):
In Texas you have to be able to predict that someone you are with is going to commit a crime and kill somebody. Jeff Wood was sitting in his truck outside a store that his friend had gone in to when he heard a shot. He went in & found his friend had murdered someone. He didn't know it was going to happen yet he is on death row. THIS IS NOT LOGICAL NOR IS IT FAIR.

But that's not all....

Quoting Texas Death Penalty Article (Reply website):
When I talk to people about the death penalty in Texas, I tell them that they could find themselves on death row some day. They say that they would never kill anyone. Then I tell them about the Law of Parties. Anyone could get caught up in this. I am confident that I will not murder anyone in my lifetime, but I cannot control what other people do, especially outside of my presence. Parents should especially be concerned. It makes the advice about watching who you pick as friends a life and death matter.

It is not so folklore-ish as you thought it was, right?
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na
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:43 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Texas is the Death Penalty Capital

At least from all civilized places in the world which are not under a strict dictatorship Texas is clearly the place with by far the most death penalties. And not a place I wouldnt want to get in trouble with the law in any case. The governor was just forced to free a man who had been in prison for more than 25 years - for nothing.

Of ca. 1100 executions in the US since 1976, more than 1/3, thats almost 400, happened in Texas alone (For comparison: New York: 0, New Hampshire: 1). There must be a grave mentality difference in that state, at least amongst its officials, to the rest of the US.
 
AverageUser
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:14 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
A clue for you, AverageUser: Look up the Law of Parties in Texas and it'll tell you exactly what I've been saying

What you quote here does not say what you've been saying, namely that not acting to prevent a crime punishable by a death sentence would by law make you a death row inmate as well in Texas.

What you quote from a blog is a case where it was unclear who was where doing what. Under most modern jurisdictions I'd think there could not be a guilty verdict in such cases. If what you said were true, the person in your case would have been convicted anyway, as he clearly was not doing his bit in preventing his friend's actions by staying outside in the truck!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:48 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 24):

Of ca. 1100 executions in the US since 1976, more than 1/3, thats almost 400, happened in Texas alone (For comparison: New York: 0, New Hampshire: 1). There must be a grave mentality difference in that state, at least amongst its officials, to the rest of the US.

And interestingly, Texas crime rates haven't been that much lower than the rest of the country.

About this 10y sentence. Perhaps this will galvanize the German public to push for a change in the laws. Honestly, this kid needs to spend the rest of his life not behind bars, but heavily medicated.
-Doc Lightning-

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AirframeAS
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:35 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 25):

Hey.... I didn't make up the laws nor did I write them. That is what Texas has. You can either chose to accept it or continue to call it a folklore. It is the only state in the U.S. (that I know of...) that has such law.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 25):
If what you said were true, the person in your case would have been convicted anyway, as he clearly was not doing his bit in preventing his friend's actions by staying outside in the truck!

That is exactly what happened. The law is the law...as screwed up as it is....

Again, you can accept the fact that there is a law that is in existence in Texas or.... whatever. The choice is yours. Just be thankful you don't live in Texas.
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AverageUser
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:32 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 27):
You can either chose to accept it or continue to call it a folklore.

For the evidence I see, I'm afraid I'll have to choose to continue calling the said principle "not acting to prevent makes you an accomplice [to crimes for which a death penalty exists] in Texas" folklore still. "Being present at the crime scene" does not equal "not preventing the crime".

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 27):
Just be thankful you don't live in Texas.

I am, every day of my life, but still some facts stand.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
About this 10y sentence. Perhaps this will galvanize the German public to push for a change in the laws. Honestly, this kid needs to spend the rest of his life not behind bars, but heavily medicated.

I always hear doctors do not diagnose patients without seeing them?
If you think a permanent medication was in place one would think the patient is also suffering from an undeniable clinical illness, in which case it follows there's a state of dimished responsibility, which in turn cancels everything above.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Perhaps this will galvanize the German public to push for a change in the laws

We have a saying "jokainen tarvitsee neekerin" - "everyone needs his or her negro". I can understand that for people in my income segment and social standing, but why should a respectable high-income professional need one?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:41 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 28):
I'm afraid I'll have to choose to continue calling the said principle "not acting to prevent makes you an accomplice [to crimes for which a death penalty exists] in Texas" folklore still.

Suit yourself.

"Chapter 7.02 of the TX Penal Code says a person can be criminally responsible for another’s actions if that person acts with "the intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense" and "solicits, encourages, directs, aids, or attempts to aid the other person to commit the offense, whether the defendant actually caused the death of the deceased or did not actually cause the death of the deceased but intended to kill the deceased or another or anticipated that a human life would be taken". Furthermore, "If, in the attempt to carry out a conspiracy to commit one felony, another felony is committed by one of the conspirators, all conspirators are guilty of the felony actually committed."

In other words, the LOP means that you can be convicted of guilt by association, even if you didn’t actually commit the crime, and even if you were not present at the crime scene, if you were involved in the planning or commission of the crime, although you did not know a murder was going to be committed.


Normally, that ends with one being on death row.....

You can easily, oh, so easy.... to find that here....  sarcastic 

http://www.lairdcarlson.com/celldoor...oster00603TXandtheLawOfParties.htm

Now, that isn't so folklore-ish, right? If you are still not convinced...then you probabaly ought to do some research yourself. If that won't convince you at all, then you might end up thinking the world is flat and the moon has breathable air.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2

Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:57 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
About this 10y sentence. Perhaps this will galvanize the German public to push for a change in the laws. Honestly, this kid needs to spend the rest of his life not behind bars, but heavily medicated.

From what I´ve heard, the rapist is a functional autist, who, while he is able to understand logically that he had done wrong (else he wouldn´t have been sentenced to prison time, but rather locked away in a mental institution), does feel no or very little empathy for others (incl. the victim). Due to this I think it will be very probably that after his prison therm he will be put in "Sicherungsverwahrung" (protective custody for people with borderline mental issues, who have committed violent crimes and are assumed to be a future danger to the public) in a forensic mental institution for the rest of his life.

Jan
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na
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:45 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
who have committed violent crimes and are assumed to be a future danger to the public) in a forensic mental institution for the rest of his life.

There is a high chance for that, but I just hope they dont waste too much taxpayers money on this human scum. That money is better invested by giving it to the murdered girl´s parents. And if this sick boy is entitled to inherit a considerable sum from his parents that should also go to the victims.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:22 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Due to this I think it will be very probably that after his prison therm he will be put in "Sicherungsverwahrung" (protective custody for people with borderline mental issues, who have committed violent crimes and are assumed to be a future danger to the public) in a forensic mental institution for the rest of his life.

That would be acceptable.

Quoting NA (Reply 31):

There is a high chance for that, but I just hope they dont waste too much taxpayers money on this human scum.

Suppose a diabetic gets hypoglycemic and, in his confusion, kills someone. When he comes out of his hypoglycemic episode, he has no idea what he's done. Should he be put to death? Is he human scum? Well, at least in the U.S. the answer is no. In fact, a friend of mine who is a cop once got punched by a guy, who he was about to cuff when he noticed his medic-alert bracelet (note to the diabetics on the board...take a hint from this story and get a bracelet).

By the same token, this "scum" didn't choose to be autistic. This is a failure of the system for not having forseen that he was capable of this. If he's autistic and that is the reason for this crime, then he needs to be removed from society for our safety, yes. But I thought Germany had already learned a lesson about eugenics. I'm surprised to see you suggesting it here.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 8):

Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals.

But criminals can lynch other criminals.  yes 

Quoting NA (Reply 24):
The governor was just forced to free a man who had been in prison for more than 25 years - for nothing.

Because Germany has never wrongly convicted anyone....  sarcastic 

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 4):
I hope that he falls down some stairs while being in prison. It is completely beyond me how someone can do things like that, simply disgusting that guy!

I hope he gets the crap kicked out of him in prison. Just because civilized people won't lynch criminals doesn't mean we can't let thugs take care of other thugs.
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Aaron747
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:47 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 33):
Just because civilized people won't lynch criminals doesn't mean we can't let thugs take care of other thugs.

And fortunately, when it comes to child rape, we know most of them will get the job done  checkmark 
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na
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:09 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
I'm surprised to see you suggesting it here.

You misunderstood me. I´m not at all suggesting eugenics at all. I just said they shouldnt waste money after he has finished his time in prison by putting him into an expensive institution should he not come out of the state of mind he is in now. Thats all. Better invest the money helping the victims than the criminal, thats my credo.
 
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:11 am



Quoting NA (Reply 35):
You misunderstood me. I´m not at all suggesting eugenics at all. I just said they shouldnt waste money after he has finished his time in prison by putting him into an expensive institution should he not come out of the state of mind he is in now.

Then do what? Execute him? Release him? Those are your two remaining choices, unless you have a third option I've missed.
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na
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:29 am

Sure: Let him work behind closed walls, so he can pay back a bit of what he did. And not lock him up in a hospital for mentally sick and treat him with expensive therapies.
 
AverageUser
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:58 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
the intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
and "solicits, encourages, directs, aids, or attempts to aid

These are all acts ("attempts to aid" is an interesting one though"), "not preventing" is a passive non-act. Therefore, no need for me to change my stand.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Due to this I think it will be very probably that after his prison therm he will be put in "Sicherungsverwahrung" (protective custody for people with borderline mental issues,

I don't know ho the German system operates, but at least here the patient is "Sicherungsverwahrunged" only after extensive medical examinations and the trial, which will for a mental patient will result in either a reduced sentence, or an institutionalization for an indefinite period. It will not be possible to extend the duration of the sentence by other institutionalization summarily. Perhaps Jan has evidence that it is possible to do so "very probably" in Germany as this would be against the European treaties and ultimately send the German government to a court of law?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 34):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 33):
Just because civilized people won't lynch criminals doesn't mean we can't let thugs take care of other thugs.

And fortunately, when it comes to child rape, we know most of them will get the job done

Oh well, yet another "lyncher-by-proxy", hiring the criminals to do the job. Why not pull him into pieces by four horses tied to his limbs in a public show and youtube it all? Surely that would cure all autist childrapers everywhere?

[Edited 2009-10-06 04:13:59]
 
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:40 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 38):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Due to this I think it will be very probably that after his prison therm he will be put in "Sicherungsverwahrung" (protective custody for people with borderline mental issues,

I don't know ho the German system operates, but at least here the patient is "Sicherungsverwahrunged" only after extensive medical examinations and the trial, which will for a mental patient will result in either a reduced sentence, or an institutionalization for an indefinite period. It will not be possible to extend the duration of the sentence by other institutionalization summarily. Perhaps Jan has evidence that it is possible to do so "very probably" in Germany as this would be against the European treaties and ultimately send the German government to a court of law?

§§ 66a,b and c StGb (StGb= Strafgesetzbuch, German penal code). Acc. to Wikipedia similar laws exist e.g. in Denmark.

Jan
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:04 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
§§ 66a,b and c StGb (StGb= Strafgesetzbuch, German penal code

Thanks for the hint! The point seems to have caused a lot of recent political stir in Germany.

While there's the general framework in place, much of what Jan says is simply not true and is exaggerated. There can be no "in custody for the rest of his life" verdict. There's no "lack of empathy" clause that Jan has found in reality either.


In cases where the convict is found to pose a clear and present danger to society, the sentence may include a provision for "preventive detention" (German: Sicherungsverwahrung) after the actual sentence. This is not considered a punishment, but a protection of the public, and elements of prison discipline that are not directly security-related will be relaxed for those in preventive detention. The preventive detention is prolonged every two years until it is found that the convict is unlikely to commit further crimes. Preventive detention may last for longer than 10 years, and is used only in exceptional cases. Since 2004, it is also possible for preventive detention to be ordered by a court after the original sentencing if the danger that a criminal poses upon release becomes obvious only during their imprisonment.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_%28Germany%29

Also straight from the code:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/en...tgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGB_000P66


Section 66

Detention for the purpose of incapacitation

If a person has been sentenced for an intentional offence to a term of imprisonment of not less than two years, the court shall make an incapacitation order in addition to the term of imprisonment if

1.

the convicted person has already been sentenced twice, each time to a term of imprisonment of not less than one year for intentional offences which he committed prior to the offence now at trial;
2.

as a result of one or more of these prior offences he has served a term of imprisonment or detention under a measure of rehabilitation and incapacitation for a total term of not less than two years; and
(my emph.)
3.

a comprehensive evaluation of the convicted person and his offences reveals that, due to his propensity to commit serious offences, particularly of a kind resulting in serious emotional trauma or physical injury to the victim or serious economic damage, he poses a danger to the general public.


Neither #1 nor #2 are present, so no there will be no preventive detention in this case, so Jan, I'm afraid you're wrong about your law.
 
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:37 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 38):
Why not pull him into pieces by four horses tied to his limbs in a public show and youtube it all? Surely that would cure all autist childrapers everywhere?

I do not think of him as an Autistic Child Rapist. I think of him a s a Child Rapist. For some there is always an excuse for the actions. I guess if you are Autistic, it somehow mitigates the horror of the act. I wonder, what else could be used as an excuse to extend mercy to a child rapist?
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:14 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 40):
While there's the general framework in place, much of what Jan says is simply not true and is exaggerated. There can be no "in custody for the rest of his life" verdict. There's no "lack of empathy" clause that Jan has found in reality either.


In cases where the convict is found to pose a clear and present danger to society, the sentence may include a provision for "preventive detention" (German: Sicherungsverwahrung) after the actual sentence. This is not considered a punishment, but a protection of the public, and elements of prison discipline that are not directly security-related will be relaxed for those in preventive detention. The preventive detention is prolonged every two years until it is found that the convict is unlikely to commit further crimes. Preventive detention may last for longer than 10 years, and is used only in exceptional cases. Since 2004, it is also possible for preventive detention to be ordered by a court after the original sentencing if the danger that a criminal poses upon release becomes obvious only during their imprisonment.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_%28Germany%29

Also straight from the code:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/en...tgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGB_000P66


Section 66

Detention for the purpose of incapacitation

If a person has been sentenced for an intentional offence to a term of imprisonment of not less than two years, the court shall make an incapacitation order in addition to the term of imprisonment if

1.

the convicted person has already been sentenced twice, each time to a term of imprisonment of not less than one year for intentional offences which he committed prior to the offence now at trial;
2.

as a result of one or more of these prior offences he has served a term of imprisonment or detention under a measure of rehabilitation and incapacitation for a total term of not less than two years; and (my emph.)
3.

a comprehensive evaluation of the convicted person and his offences reveals that, due to his propensity to commit serious offences, particularly of a kind resulting in serious emotional trauma or physical injury to the victim or serious economic damage, he poses a danger to the general public.


Neither #1 nor #2 are present, so no there will be no preventive detention in this case, so Jan, I'm afraid you're wrong about your law.

You just checked §66, but not §66a, §66b and §66c. I can´t be @rsed to translate several pages of German legalese into English, also, I´m neither a lawyer nor a judge, but from what I understand there already exists the possibility of locking somebody away (obviously with the re-examinations every two years) if he had committed only one serious crime and his personality points to the possibility that he might commit similar crimes again when he is released. Since a few years (due to several high profile crimes committed by people who were imprisoned before for similar crimes), a high probability of committing similar serious crimes is enough for a judge to order Sicherungsverwahrung.
From what I´ve found on the internet, there are currently between 400 and 800 prisoners in Sicherungsverwahrung.

Jan
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:21 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 41):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 38):
Why not pull him into pieces by four horses tied to his limbs in a public show and youtube it all? Surely that would cure all autist childrapers everywhere?

I do not think of him as an Autistic Child Rapist. I think of him a s a Child Rapist. For some there is always an excuse for the actions. I guess if you are Autistic, it somehow mitigates the horror of the act. I wonder, what else could be used as an excuse to extend mercy to a child rapist?

Autism exists in various forms, from the relatively mild Asperger´s syndrome, which, while making a person arkward in interacting wirth other people, still allows him to function in the society, to serious versions, in which the affected person lives within his own universe and can´t take care of himself.
One thing in common is the inability (to a varying grade) to understand and interpret emotional signals from other people.
A serious autist, from what I know, can maybe logically understand that there are rules and laws (often they have a veray logical mind for things which can be memorized), but he can´t feel any empathy for other people., for him other people are just the same as unamimated things in his surroundings.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:45 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):
You just checked §66, but not §66a, §66b and §66c. I can´t be @rsed to translate several pages of German legalese into English, also,

Jan, there exist perfectly good English translations (the link is from your relevant Ministry) of your legal code already -- I used them in fact, kindly see above. By all means use and quote you native German version if you should fancy (or be arsed as you chose to phrase it), but kindly be mentally prepared for the fact that the conditions outlined in the beginning of the chapter 66 will hold -- i.e. the paragraph is applicable for repeat offenders only. (In fact my sources tell the law is fundamentally a 1933 Nazi clause for controlling habitual criminals!)

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 41):
I guess if you are Autistic, it somehow mitigates the horror of the act.

No it does not, but that is not the point. In the current Western legal standard one can feed a wardful of newborn babies through a meat grinder, and not be convicted of the crime, if the perpetrator is found to be criminally insane.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
A serious autist, from what I know, can maybe logically understand that there are rules and laws (often they have a veray logical mind for things which can be memorized), but he can´t feel any empathy for other people., for him other people are just the same as unamimated things in his surroundings

You're wrong here as well. I can't be arsed to ask what books on the subject you've been reading.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: 19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.

Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:23 pm

It is always rather interesting to see the public bubble with rage over such tragedies.

There is always a hint of hypocrisy in it, as the act will almost always be forgotten by all in a few months, except, of course, by the only people who actually care about what happened and who should have a say in this: The families of both the victim and the perpetrator.

I never wish to be in a position where anything like that happened to my daughter, but I suspect that even killing the wrongdoer would do nothing to ease the pain. Two wrongs will never make a right.
It is pretty fair to assume that the rapist's life has been ruined forever, as well as that of his entire family. Even if he wasn't a dangerous autist, spendind the arguably 10 most important years of his life in jail and the ensuing monitoring, reputation and stigma will definitely guarantee him a pretty miserable existence.

As usual, thoughts are being wasted in senseless arguments over the severity of the punishment instead of a meaningful way to try and prevent such things from happening in the first place. It's a shame.
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