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DocLightning
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Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:09 pm

I'm in Michigan right now where I was invited to be the keynote speaker at a conference on ADHD (which went very well, BTW). I stayed a few extra days so that I could visit my old hometown. It's turned out to be one of the most depressing trips I've ever taken.

All my mom's friends have gotten so...old! They're wrinkled, they use walkers, they are losing their faculties, it's awful to see. But what's worse to see is the lack of young people. They're leaving as fast as they can. All the houses in our neighborhood are full of old people with their nurses and maids. There are no children to be seen. It's like "Children of Men."

And my friends? They don't do things that people in their 30's should be doing. They're not dating, they're not having kids ("why would you have a kid in a time like this?"), they can't find jobs, they're struggling not to lose their homes, it's awful. It's as if the cycle of life here is grinding to a halt.

Last night I went to my friend Rob's place. Rob had two bright, cute, very active Jack Russels named Spot and Splash when I left here 4 years ago. Once, their reaction to anyone at the door was to slam headlong into the door, then do a lap around the dining room table, then slam headlong into the door and bark their throats out. Now, Spot is gone and Splash doesn't even know that someone's at the door because he's deaf and blind and can hardly walk without falling over. I broke down sobbing when I saw my strong, goofy, crazy little friend as a tired, arthritic, confused old dog who looks just about ready to give up. Rob's not ready to put him down just yet.

The economic crisis is obvious here, but unlike San Francisco, I think this was the final death blow to the area. Shops are boarded up and homes are abandoned, their tenants evicted without any new tenants to replace them. Places I remember from my childhood have recently closed down, due to the recession. Tony's Barber Shop is gone after 40 years. I got my hair cut there from age 5 until I went to Stanford. The people look as if they have simply come to accept the destruction as the new "normal." The name "Detroit" seems to refer to a memory these days. The region is no longer "Metro Detroit," but rather "Southeastern Michigan." The city of Detroit has become irrelevant, a victim of slow abandonment. A modern Mandu.

I came home after all these years and all I found is death, decay, and a wasteland. I used to hate Detroit with a passion because I felt trapped here, but I don't hate it anymore. It just makes me so sad to see my childhood home so devastated. It's been like a surreal movie. I was expecting it to be bad...but as an ex-pat native, I think it looks worse to me than it does to the locals who have watched this happen day-by-day. It's just a horrible shock to see what has happened. I can only hope that something new will take root and grow here. There's tons of space, ample water, and a wealth of abandoned buildings from which to draw raw materials for construction.

I don't know why I posted this. There isn't much to discuss. I'm just blown away by the devastation. And I'm thankful, so very thankful, to have made my home in San Francisco. I go back home this afternoon... F-class on a NW 752.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:43 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
the lack of young people. They're leaving as fast as they can



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
until I went to Stanford

Well, there you have the cause of the problem... or shall I say, you are the cause of the problem. "Brain drain" = young, educated people leaving the area, while less educated people stay there. Many places suffer from this, especially rural areas in developing countries, or as in this case, industrial areas that are past their best years.

Soren santahat 
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
Mike89406
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:01 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I don't know why I posted this. There isn't much to discuss. I'm just blown away by the devastation. And I'm thankful, so very thankful, to have made my home in San Francisco. I go back home this afternoon... F-class on a NW 752.

Don't feel bad it's Michigan  duck  J/K.

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 2):
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I came home after all these years and all I found is death, decay, and a wasteland

Depends on where you're looking. Yes we are getting hit hard by this depression. But as has happened before, Michigan and the Detroit area will rebound.

Then again Detroit has suffered from a bad rap before the Economy Downturn.

I will say this although my hometown wasn't as bad when I went back for my recent reunion I always felt a depressing Aura surrounding  Sad the Spokane area anytime I go to visit.

Mike
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:19 pm

Here is a link to a website with some very sorry looking images of Detroit http://www.seedetroit.com/pictures/urbandecay/ the train station has to be the biggest travesty of the lot, stunning building left to rot.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:45 pm

Time moves on and waits for nobody. It kind of reminds you of the saying "You can never go home again". Home has changed and will never be the same again.
How many years has it been since you were last in Detroit?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
Flighty
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:08 pm

I went to Detroit this summer. It was a surprisingly good looking city. Yes, it has vast wastelands. But, it also has a lot of good stuff.

I'd love to hear your opinions on ADHD someday. I am pretty skeptical of that whole movement. But, opinions are pretty strong on both sides of it. Another thread probably.
 
FX772LRF
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:51 pm

I don't think what Mike was trying to get at was that Michigan is a bad place, but more of what you don't realize as you get older. Things change...drastically. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. I think Mike's position is the latter.

It's sad to see what happens and what you realize when you get older. It's got to be hard, and I'm not looking forward to it at all. Everyday, I have a voice in the back of my head, wondering when our eldest dog is going to pass away and how I'm going to deal with it.

Mike, I hope your trip and keynote presentation went well, and thanks for sharing.

-Noah  wave 
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AirframeAS
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:16 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
until I went to Stanford.

There is your problem, Doc. You left while your family stayed behind. You could have gone to UM instead and stayed closer to your family. Had you done that, your thinking about Michigan would probably be 180 degrees the other way.

Again, you are the one that left in the first place....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 12):
I invite any and all of you to come to my hometown, let ME show you around, and you will see that Detroit with all it warts is still a great town!

I'll take your offer up on that, I'd love to see what Michigan is really like.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:52 pm

The news media wouldn't have much to talk about if they posted these pics of Detroit. Yep ,nothing but rot and decay

The Guardian building


The Fisher building


The Fox Theatre
 
Stealthz
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:42 pm

I think our young doctor friend has finally seen life without his rose tinted glasses..

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
All the houses in our neighborhood are full of old people with their nurses and maids.

This is a bad thing, there would be many millions of elderly folk in your country (and mine) that would feel quite priveliged to grow old gracefully with the assistance of nurses AND maids.

Really Doc, you do have a distorted view of the world.

Dtw9, those are some glorious buildings.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:44 pm

A few of my friends went to detroit for the final four last year and they said it looked so awful, it seemed like a third world country. I know there is a thread right now about whether California is the first failed state, I think we could make a great argument that if Detroit continues down this path with no recovery, it could be on its way to being a failed city at this point in time, not the first failed city, but a failure nonetheless. Hopefully they can get something going there in Detroit, ya gotta feel for em. What can they do to bring in some jobs there that can generate enough income? Because the last thing a city needs is for people to move somewhere else because of the scarcity of jobs.

[Edited 2009-10-04 17:00:28]
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:55 pm

The Detoit Opera House, home of the Michigan Opera Theatre
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f127/dtwclipper/a-full-house.jpg

Wayne State
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f127/dtwclipper/waynestate1.jpg

Ford Field, Home of the Detoir Lio.....oh maybe not such a great example
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f127/dtwclipper/fordfield-detroit-DSC08410-1.jpg

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 18):
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
All the houses in our neighborhood are full of old people with their nurses and maids.

This is a bad thing, there would be many millions of elderly folk in your country (and mine) that would feel quite priveliged to grow old gracefully with the assistance of nurses AND maids.

This is true in many parts of the country! Older suburbs were the original owners are still there and have aged in their own homes rather than moving. I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with that. I plan on staying in my current home for many, many years. My father's "lady friend" has been in her home in Franklin, Michigan since she got married in 1949 when she moved in with her in-laws who built it in 1927. What is the problem there?
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:10 am

Look at all the rot and decay in birmingham at the Woodward dream cruise. 16 miles of classic car heaven

http://www.detroitmoxie.com/storage/DSCN5921.JPG?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1250480670752

Clipper you picked the wrong statium

http://i.pbase.com/u26/spepple/upload/31637291.comerica_park2.jpg
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:15 am



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 21):
Clipper you picked the wrong statium

Ok, here you go:



Oh, and you can't spell Detroit without
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:21 am



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
Oh, and you can't spell Detroit without

Yes I can

 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:28 am

And you couldn't be a kid from Detroit if you don't remember this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQqyDj7RX6Y
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:31 am



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 24):
And you couldn't be a kid from Detroit if you don't remember this

You'll like this site:

http://www.detroitkidshow.com/detroit_commercials


Remember the DIA "you've gotta have art"!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
NW747400
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:34 am

I'd like to travel to Detroit to see it for myself but like many others here my friends who have been there have not painted a very pretty picture of what it is like. They say that, although there are still some magnificant buildings, much of the city is in decay. They also said that Detroit has consistantly had the highest violent crime rate in America. That being said I hope that someday Detroit can get its act together and once again take a place among the great cities in America.
NW747400
 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:36 am



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
Remember the DIA "you've gotta have art"!

It's already on my computer. Don't know why the DIA doesn't bring that one back
 
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tb727
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:38 am

Ewww Vernors! I'm more of a Faygo fan!

Anyways, did anyone see the piece in Time last week? It's part of a year long look at the city by Time. I thought it was pretty good and I'm looking forward to seeing all the pieces.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1925796,00.html

The part I found interesting is the changing of the abandoned parts of the city to greenbelts. I think that would really help the immediate image people get when they drive into the city for their first time.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 13):
I'll take your offer up on that, I'd love to see what Michigan is really like.

It is awesome, I love Michigan, that's very hard to say for someone that grew up in Ohio but I am here to stay. I travel all over this great country for a living and I am always counting down the days until I come back home. Come on out and enjoy the splendor of the Great Lakes state.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:43 am



Quoting NW747400 (Reply 26):
That being said I hope that someday Detroit can get its act together and once again take a place among the great cities in America.

Not one of us who live in the Metro area (about 5 million) will deny that we have our share of problems, but remember "Detroit" is more than just the city, it is the entire South East Michigan area from Ann Arbor, Birmingham, Royal Oak, the Grosse Pointes, and many other great places!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:44 am



Quoting NW747400 (Reply 26):
They also said that Detroit has consistantly had the highest violent crime rate in America.

Isn't it amazing we can have over 1 million people year after year downtown at one of the country's biggest fireworks displays and have very little crime. We have a million and a half at the Woodward dream cruise with no crime. We have a million at the Thanksgiving day parade and you guessed it,very little crime. As with all cities you know where and when to go and not go.
 
NW747400
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:57 am

[quote=Dtw9,reply=30]Isn't it amazing we can have over 1 million people year after year downtown at one of the country's biggest fireworks displays and have very little crime. We have a million and a half at the Woodward dream cruise with no crime. We have a million at the Thanksgiving day parade and you guessed it,very little crime. As with all cities you know where and when to go and not go.[/quote

I agree with you that in any major city a little common sense goes a long way, but still the statistics tell the story. Detroit consistently has the highest violent crime rate in the country.
 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:03 am



Quoting NW747400 (Reply 32):
I agree with you that in any major city a little common sense goes a long way, but still the statistics tell the story. Detroit consistently has the highest violent crime rate in the country.

Quite true. But do some research on those stats. You'll find that most violent crime in Detroit is drug related,domestic disputes,friend on friend or family on family.


Random crime is not the main source of the stats.Clipper this one will make you feel old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Wt_DHw684&feature=related
 
dtw9
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:23 am



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 33):
Quite true. But do some research on those stats.

Here's a 2007 report from Wayne State

http://www.tedconline.com/uploads/2007_Final_Crime_Report%5B1%5D.pdf
 
ltbewr
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:37 am

Many other mainly old industrial cities in the 'rustbelt' region of the USA are also suffering from the movement of industry away to other parts of the USA as well as overseas and due to improvements in productivity and transportation. Detroit is not alone, but is in a far worse situation as to those changes due to the dominance of the motor vehicle industry.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:49 am

I have been visiting Detroit twice a year for the past 15 years and absolutely love it. I look forward to it every single time. NAIAS in January and friends/family in June. I've got family all over the area, from Trenton out to Farmington Hills. Is the economy tough there? Sure. Is it a complete shithole worthy of taking pot shots at? No. It's funny how people consistently forget Oakland County is one of the wealthiest counties in the entire nation. Detroit is far more than the abandoned neighborhoods downtown.

Here's to my upcoming visit in January!  champagne 
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
AverageUser
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:34 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
My mom's "For Sale" sign has been up for 3 years now. It's a beautiful piece of land on a lake and no matter how much she drops the price... nobody wants to buy.

I can see even across from here that those property values have been inflated from the outset. There'll always be a buyer when the price is right, the basics of market economy should reign in the U.S. of all places, where basically everything is a commodity and readily liquidizable.
A tough lesson, but the asking prices just need to go down further. I wonder whether there's public domain property sales price information available in the area at all?
 
BMI727
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:00 pm

Detroit has been hit hard, and for that matter wasn't the greatest place (at least by reputation) before. But come on, it isn't like Mogadishu or something. At least there is a government.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
prosa
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:21 pm

Houses in parts of Detroit can be purchased for less than the price of a typical new car. It could well be that investing in these neighborhoods, while risky, can be done so cheaply that it will pay off very well over time.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Toulouse
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:29 pm

Dear all,

I have just ripped this thread apart and deleted some 40 posts. Perhaps I should have just locked it, but I, and the other moderators, felt the Thread Opener had a right to express his feelings and that they could be discussed in a constructive manner.

The reason for this massive number of deletions is simply because a limited number of users, 2 or 3 in particular, took personal offence at DocLightning's views, and turned the thread into a series of personal comments against the thread opener. These types of comments will not be tolerated.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, and just because somebody doesn't agree or like it, is not a reason to make personal comments on the forum against the poster. If you want to argue their opinion, do it in a civilised and mature way by providing arguments in favour of your opinion, without making demeaning comments towards the user whose opinions you disagree with.

I fully understand people's desires to defend their hometowns/states/countries when somebody says something against them, I would feel the same. But this must be done without disrespecting any user on the forum.

On a personal note, I feel DocLightning feels a mixture of "nostalgia and sadness" (as another moderator put it) regarding his native city. Please discuss his opinions/feelings in a polite, civilised, respectful and constructive fashion.

Any further problems will result in this thread being immediately locked.

Many thanks for your understanding.

Kind regards,
Toulouse
Forum Moderator
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Superfly
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:41 pm

....and DocLightning drives a Japanese made Toyota Prius!      




My hometown of Gary, Indiana has suffered the same challenges as Detroit, Michigan (actually Gary has it worse but that is for another thread) . As a result, I don't dump on similar cities in the rust belt.
Like DocLighning, I live in San Francisco too. I just about 1 mile from DocLighning actually.
I certainly know what is like to see the stark contrast between San Francisco and places like Detroit.

However, I can't bring myself to knocking Detroit.
The city has a lot of history and many great things have come out of Detroit. The city of Detroit has so much potential. It is the only large US city on the US/Canada border. Two major powerful nations side by side and the 1 major metro area on this border really should be a world-class city.
I was in Detroit back in the spring of this year.
I wrote an extensive trip report about it actually.

Detroit Rock City (SFO-PHL-DTW) (by Superfly May 11 2009 in Trip Reports)#1

The people of Detroit has a great sense of pride and they should. This city has given the world so many great things from music, to automobiles, sports just to name a few. Some of the most beautiful homes, churches, commercial buildings and museums are here in Detroit.
I want to see this city make a strong rebound and to be on par with Chicago, New York, San Francisco and other major US cities that are desirable to live.
With the right leadership and heads of industry investing properly, this city could explode in to an economic powerhouse. The infrastructure is already in place. Plenty of factories that are standing and a large pool of skilled manufacturing workforce.

....and the food!
I've had some of the best food ever in Detroit. In fact, Falstaff took me to a Greek restaurant that had gyros and saganaki that tasted better than the Greek food I had in Greece!
No joke!

I actually look forward to re-visiting Detroit within the next year. Ideally in the middle of winter when it's freezing cold. I actually DO miss those those freezing cold winters in the Midwest.


I certainly do my part in not only helping Detroit, but the US economy as a whole.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 11):
We have watched as our friends who own their own business struggle to keep their doors open, we have witnessed our home values fall and state services falter.

I've gone to Yelp.com and left great reviews for all the really good ma & pa restaurants I ate at on my last trip. These owners were grateful and hopefully this could these businesses stay afloat.

Thanks again for the tour of your aviation shrine Jeremy.   


WOW!
Those are some awesome photos!  Wow!

Other fine products of Detroit;















http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1950-1959/1959-Cadillac-Eldorado-Biarritz-Convertible-white-ra-lr.jpg

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1960-1969/1966-Lincoln-Continental-White-sa-c-sy.jpg










http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/Superfly8track/UA727Cadillac.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Chrysler-300C-SRT8.jpg/800px-Chrysler-300C-SRT8.jpg



[Edited 2009-10-05 13:44:42]

[Edited 2009-10-05 14:12:41]
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:12 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

Other fine products of Detroit;

Which proves that there's nothing inherently wrong with the place. Truly GREAT THINGS have come from Detroit.

My grandfather is from a tiny town up north called Onaway. Onaway used to be the home to a factory where all the steering wheels for Detroit were made. When you drove into town, there was a sign: "Onaway steers the world!"

Today, it's: "Welcome to Onaway: Sturgeon capital of Michigan."  Sad

What industries do you think Detroit should pursue? I think that they should go to great pains to try to capture the biotech, high-tech, and aerospace industries. Might also be a good idea to try to trap the rail industry, which would help to rebuild the city's rail system and lead to more transit-centered development.

"Aerospace? Are you kidding?" No. To a degree, the industry is already there, because of NW's DTW hub. That hub brings a lot of revenue to the area. Michigan has hundreds of thousands of square km of wide, flat open space for building runways and factories. The snow and weather isn't actually a big problem, since DTW operates just fine unless it's a really terrible blizzard. You couldn't use it for space launches because you want the most southernmost points for that to 1) avoid frost and 2) be closer to the equator.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

....and the food!
I've had some of the best food ever in Detroit. In fact, Falstaff took me to a Greek restaurant that had gyros and saganaki that tasted better than the Greek food I had in Greece!
No joke!

Oh my god yes. And not only that, but the Mid-Eastern food is the best! S.E. Michigan has the largest Middle-Eastern population in the world (outside of the Mid-East). (As an aside, I have no idea why; you'd think they'd go to Arizona or someplace more like home.) But if you want some REALLY good shwarma, hummus, or falafel, S.E. Michigan is the place to get it.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 28):

I can see even across from here that those property values have been inflated from the outset. There'll always be a buyer when the price is right, the basics of market economy should reign in the U.S. of all places, where basically everything is a commodity and readily liquidizable.

Now, to orient you, the former CEO of Ford lives on our lake. So these were once very valuable properties.

However, there is NOT always a buyer when the price is right. The houses in that neighborhood are on large plots of land that need upkeep and maintenance. Even if my mom lowered her price to $500, I bet she still would have trouble finding a buyer. Why? Because nobody has even expressed interest in the house. In the three years that it's been on the market, it's been shown four times.

First of all, the house itself is a tear-down. It's a nice house, but it's 50+ years old, built in 4 sections, and has (as a consequence) two heating systems and three air conditioning systems. So whoever buys it will probably have to immediately tear it down  Sad and build something new. It's the land that has the value.

Second: in order to sell houses and property like that, you need white-collar executives who are looking to buy. However, Detroit is severely lacking in white-collar executive jobs at this point. Who's hiring them? GM? Ford? Chrysler? So that's why nobody has been coming to look at it.

Third: You might think that, since the prices have dropped so severely, that people from less expensive neighborhoods might come. The problem is that *everyone* lost a ton of money in the recession. So even those who would jump at this great deal don't have the money.

In California, a house like this would probably be worth upwards of US$5m. Especially if it were near the coast.

I'm begging my mother not to sell it, to wait until the area recovers, but she feels that the chances of a recovery before she dies (she's 75, so figure 10-15 more years) is so low that she'd rather save on the property taxes by selling at a loss.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

I actually look forward to re-visiting Detroit within the next year.

So do I. I want to take my partner there and show it to him... before I can't even recognize it anymore.  Sad

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
....and DocLightning drives a Japanese made Toyota Prius!

Aren't they made in Kentucky or something? Anyway, yeah! When Ford or GM can make a decent competing car of similar quality, I'll happily buy American.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 27):
No. It's funny how people consistently forget Oakland County is one of the wealthiest counties in the entire nation.

The reason for that at this point is because the retired auto execs live in Oakland County. But now there isn't really any self-sustaining industry in Oakland County. Southfield has a few banks and office towers, but Oakland County got rich because Detroit was producing so much. I'm not aware that there's much new money flowing into the area. So Oakland County may be OK now, but there needs to be new industry in the area for it to stay that way.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:22 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Aren't they made in Kentucky or something?

Nope, that is assembled in a sweatshop in Japan by outsourced immigrants from Burma, Vietnam by laborers who are stripped of their passports an forced to work 16 hour shifts 7 days a week. Raw materials for those hybrids come from nickel mines in Canada an China. Huge carbon-foot prints are made to ship parts for those cars across continents and oceans before they are delivered, marketed and sold in the United States.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
"Aerospace? Are you kidding?" No. To a degree, the industry is already there, because of NW's DTW hub. That hub brings a lot of revenue to the area. Michigan has hundreds of thousands of square km of wide, flat open space for building runways and factories. The snow and weather isn't actually a big problem, since DTW operates just fine unless it's a really terrible blizzard. You couldn't use it for space launches because you want the most southernmost points for that to 1) avoid frost and 2) be closer to the equator.

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No THAT is a good idea!  idea 
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:26 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Nope, that is assembled in a sweatshop in Japan by outsourced immigrants from Burma, Vietnam by laborers who are stripped of their passports an forced to work 16 hour shifts 7 days a week.

Wait this can't be true, Japan allows this to happen? I agree that the Prius is a poor excuse for a truly green car (turbo diesel is a much better choice).
 
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:39 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

Nope, that is assembled in a sweatshop in Japan by outsourced immigrants from Burma, Vietnam by laborers who are stripped of their passports an forced to work 16 hour shifts 7 days a week. Raw materials for those hybrids come from nickel mines in Canada an China. Huge carbon-foot prints are made to ship parts for those cars across continents and oceans before they are delivered, marketed and sold in the United States.

check your facts:
http://russelldad.blogspot.com/2007/...t-checking-on-hummer-vs-prius.html

This is becoming one of those urban myths, like the one that says that water in toilets in the northern hemisphere flows the opposite way from the southern hemisphere (in fact, water in a toilet flows whichever way the manufacturer aims the vents).

There are allegations that Toyota's competitors actually paid CNWMR for that report.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 35):
Wait this can't be true, Japan allows this to happen?

Not sure.
I've started a thread about it here.
Slavery-like Conditions At Toyota Factory In Japan (by Superfly Oct 5 2009 in Non Aviation)
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:41 am



Quoting Toulouse (Reply 31):

On a personal note, I feel DocLightning feels a mixture of "nostalgia and sadness" (as another moderator put it) regarding his native city.

That's exactly what I feel. Whichever mod pointed it out, thank you. That's a great choice of words.

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 22):

Isn't it amazing we can have over 1 million people year after year downtown at one of the country's biggest fireworks displays and have very little crime. We have a million and a half at the Woodward dream cruise with no crime. We have a million at the Thanksgiving day parade and you guessed it,very little crime. As with all cities you know where and when to go and not go.

BTW, those fireworks and that parade? Up until a few years ago, my sister was the head of the company that put those events on. I swear, when the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup back in 1997, she was the only Detroiter rooting against them because she knew that if she won, she had 12 hours in which to organize and produce a victory parade. And after one very sleepless night, she threw a hell of a parade.

This is why, when my dad died, we had ten caterers and event planners taking care of all the funeral stuff for free.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:46 am

Not to have this blow up in everyone's faces again...

Why would your sister do that? It's her job, is it not? People would kill to have even work for 12 hrs of paid work now. Of course...the Wings died on home ice in June and the Kitties are...well...who knows yet. Back on topic...overtime sucks...but it puts food on the table.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:49 am



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 39):

Why would your sister do that? It's her job, is it not?

Of COURSE she was rooting for the Wings, silly. It was a joke. You know, ha-ha? Funny?
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:57 am



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 9):
The news media wouldn't have much to talk about if they posted these pics of Detroit. Yep ,nothing but rot and decay

St. John's Episcopal Church, in Detroit. Opened in 1861 (chapel opened in 1859). One of the last Episcopal churches still using only the 1928 prayer book and 1940 hymnal. It is a real inspiration, to us old school Episcopalians. Just across the street is the Fox and Comerica Park; two great places. Just down the road is the Detroit Beer Compnay, a fine bar I spent much of this past Saturday at.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/church003.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/church001.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/church004.jpg

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 12):
Ford Field, Home of the Detoir Lio.....oh maybe not such a great example

It is a nice stadium anyway....

Quoting PROSA (Reply 30):
Houses in parts of Detroit can be purchased for less than the price of a typical new car. It could well be that investing in these neighborhoods, while risky, can be done so cheaply that it will pay off very well over time.

A house across the street from my buddy's place in Detroit sold for $440 a few weeks ago. A house down the block had an opening bid of $500; nobody bid. I live in Taylor, a western inner ring suburb. You can buy a livable house in my neighborhood for $ 10,000. If you want to spend $40,000 you can get decent size house that is in good shape. My house is worth about $20,000 and I owe $80,0000 on it still. It was worth $105,000 back in 2003.

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 207kb
My House

The house on the right needed work, but it sold in 2007, before the market completely fell apart for $31,000.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:05 am

I went to Detroit for the first time this summer (other than having connected in DTW a few times). If the rest of the city was as nice as the airport, it'd be one of the nicest cities in the country. There are some very, very nice parts of that city, especially the areas around Comerica Park and Ford Field. I spent most of my time in Novi/Linvonia area for the wedding. However, go just a few blocks from there (literally) from Ford Field and Comerica Park and you hit the dumps. Our first night there we went to Game 7 of the Conference Semi-Finals between Detroit and Anaheim and we got off one exit too early for the Joe, and well, it's clearly not a part of town you want to end up in. I made the comment that this looks like the area where they filmed Gran Torino, and my friend's dad told me we actually weren't that far from that site.

Detroit is a city that refused to change with the times, and they've done it to themselves. The auto-industry is slowing and leaving. But I look at a state like North Carolina, and it's hard for me to feel sorry for Detroit. North Carolina used to be a state that thrived on the textile and furniture market. Now those markets are overseas. The tobacco industry is slowly fading away too. However, North Carolina has been willing to change. Many of those tobacco farms are now wineries. And now instead of textile mills, the state is building upon banking and finance, particularly in Charlotte, while the medical research and pharmaceutical industry is growing in the Raleigh/Durham area.
Pittsburgh is another city that fell on hard times as the steel industry shifted away but now the city is bouncing back. So if Detroit is to change and thrive again, it's up to Detroit.

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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:06 am



Quoting PROSA (Reply 30):
Houses in parts of Detroit can be purchased for less than the price of a typical new car. It could well be that investing in these neighborhoods, while risky, can be done so cheaply that it will pay off very well over time.

Oh yes they can. But first you have to convince investors that it will happen this lifetime.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 42):
while the medical research and pharmaceutical industry is growing in the Raleigh/Durham area.

And Pfizer closed their labs in Ann Arbor a few years ago. Not sure why. My guess is that they couldn't get people who wanted to stay there.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:38 am



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 14):
Oh, and you can't spell Detroit without

Yuck! I will stick to my Canada Dry. When I was in Michigan, I would buy Canada Dry and people would ask why I wasnt buying Verners. Once I brought out my I.D. when I used my card they would say "oh, thats why".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
At least there is a government.

Thats even pushing it  Wink

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
but the Mid-Eastern food is the best!

Oh your telling me! I loved going Dearborn, MI and eating middle eastern food. Met some pretty neat people from Iraq and Iran there.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Oakland County

Isn't Oakland mainly known for the PGA course and the college?

I lived in Michigan from 2004 to 2009 (January) and loved living outside of Detroit but going to the city wasn't that great at night. Fun to go and take pictures but kind of stuck to Ann Arbor and Dearborn for food. Certain places have become pretty ran down and kind of sad when you drive around and see a house for sale for $9,000. My last car was more than that and I bought it used! The downward times though has helped some of my friends become first time home buyers but when your job is in construction, your not making much money. Now I lived closer to MIS in Jackson and that place had its fair problems too and when I have been back there sense moving, it makes me sad sure, but I sure do love the people.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:57 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 44):

Yuck! I will stick to my Canada Dry. When I was in Michigan, I would buy Canada Dry and people would ask why I wasnt buying Verners. Once I brought out my I.D. when I used my card they would say "oh, thats why".

Gentiles...er...non-Michiganders don't like Vernors because of what happens when you get it too near your nose and inhale. You can't inhale while drinking Vernors.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:01 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):

I wish someone would have told that to this Gentile.  Smile I will admit though, Vernors did make a better Boston Cooler than Canada Dry.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):

Second: in order to sell houses and property like that, you need white-collar executives who are looking to buy.

We don't have the rule here. Everyone with the asking money is allowed to buy no matter what the colour of the collar. In my street here I have medical doctors and university people, but also several operators and technicians. If you want to keep the area "clean" and consist only of CEO level of people by keeping the property asking prices artificially high, I really can't see much of a point.

[Edited 2009-10-06 05:18:55]
 
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 47):

We don't have the rule here. Everyone with the asking money is allowed to buy no matter what the colour of the collar.

You misunderstand.

This is the neighborhood where the former CEOs of Ford and GM live. My parents live there because they got the house 40 years ago. These lots are all larger than an acre and on a lake.

The property taxes on that piece of land are such that no blue collar worker could afford it, even if he bought it for free. That's why the collar matters. No other reason. Any upper-level management type could snap it up for pennies now, but there are no upper-level management types moving to Detroit.

At this point, the people looking to sell would be willing to sell to anyone. I don't think they care who lives in the neighborhood, as long as you can afford the upkeep and taxes.
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RE: Death, Decay, And Detroit

Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:15 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 48):
The property taxes on that piece of land are such that no blue collar worker could afford it,

I see, selling to a developer is no option then? Or splitting up the properties so that more people, even collarless, would be able to build their homes there?

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