Airstud
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SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:26 pm

They have closed the Bay Bridge indefinitely while Caltrans "engineers" ponder how that thar shiny piece fell plumb out; fahv minutes b'fore the evening COMM-yoot.

Are you losing faith (if, unlike me, you ever had any) in the safety of the Bay Area's transportation apparatus?

Every day I watch MUNI buses barrel through red lights; making pedestrians scurry (I'm not embellishing here; this actually happens at least three times a day at 1st & Market). MUNI drivers' union hammered out agreements whereby they're allowed to stay on the job after causing five injury accidents.

Now, the Bay Bridge is, apparently, unraveling. Closed due to the failure of something that was itself an "emergency repair" a month ago. (Did someone, a month ago, misread "emergency repair" for "emergency request" on the work order? As in, customer requests an emergency?)

And I don't wanna hear any "let's just be thankful no one was hurt." No kidding we're all thankful for that. It means Caltrans - and the commuters - are lucky. It doesn't mean the former isn't screwing up horrifyingly.
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LH459
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SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:55 pm



Quoting Airstud (Thread starter):
Every day I watch MUNI buses barrel through red lights; making pedestrians scurry (I'm not embellishing here; this actually happens at least three times a day at 1st & Market).

Happens constantly at 3rd and Market as well. Believe it or not, I swear it was worse when I first arrived here 10 years ago. There was one driver in particular, easily identified because of the hat he wore, who consistently ran the light every time he came by. So, I can't say that I've ever had any faith in Muni. Not since my first day in SF. The road infrastructure, however, is another matter: I'm absolutely appalled by this turn of events! Of course, after years of delays and budget overruns on the whole Bay Bridge project, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
D L X
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SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:21 pm

This is a little hyperbolic, isn't it, saying "no more Bay Bridge?" I mean, the part that broke is still part of the span that is in the process of being replaced by the completely new span, is it not?
 
LH459
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SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:24 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
the part that broke is still part of the span that is in the process of being replaced by the completely new span, is it not?

Correct.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
Airstud
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SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:33 pm

Closed indefinitely, that was my reference.

Also I don't believe the spec for the original eastern span was "to fall apart if repairs are ever attempted."

(This bridge will self destruct in [count] projects.)
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clemsonaj
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SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:09 pm

I don't know what the original design life of the Bay Brdige was, but it looks like we're creeping up on that time (the Bay Bridge is 70+ years old). Moisture and saline environments (Bay Area?) speed up the wear and tear on the exposed steel. Add to that damage sustained from earthquakes and constant heavy traffic and you get instances like this. It's probably a good thing that the eastern span is already in the process of being replaced.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:17 pm

I pretty much stopped reading when you put mocked the job title of Engineer.

CalTrans hires actual engineers, you know?
 
Airstud
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:26 pm

OK, I guess so.

But then how come the thingy came undone?!?!?!
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lincoln
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:30 pm



Quoting Airstud (Reply 7):
But then how come the thingy came undone?!?!?!

Cuz the other thingy wasn't on tight enough.
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ER757
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:37 pm

Well, that's going to make the cross-bay commute a nightmare if it's not open come rush hour
 
N1120A
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:48 pm



Quoting Airstud (Thread starter):
Now, the Bay Bridge is, apparently, unraveling. Closed due to the failure of something that was itself an "emergency repair" a month ago. (Did someone, a month ago, misread "emergency repair" for "emergency request" on the work order? As in, customer requests an emergency?)

Its an old bridge that is in the process of replacement. In fact, they should have done this work years ago, but Pete Wilson decided to pass the buck on a ton of major projects to pretend he had balanced the budget. In reality, all he did was make things more expensive for the future.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):

CalTrans hires actual engineers, you know?

Very good ones too. If CalTrans were a private engineering firm, they would probably be the best in the world.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 8):


Quoting Airstud (Reply 7):
But then how come the thingy came undone?!?!?!

Cuz the other thingy wasn't on tight enough.

 rotfl  rotfl 

Quoting ER757 (Reply 9):
Well, that's going to make the cross-bay commute a nightmare if it's not open come rush hour

I think BART is going to see a few more riders for a while.
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LH459
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:00 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
I think BART is going to see a few more riders for a while.

That is an understatement! My usual train was nearly 10 minutes late, and even more packed than normal. Many of the people on the train were not regular BART riders and had no idea how to behave on public transport (i.e. not blocking doors, moving into the train, etc.)  Angry
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
chrisair
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:30 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
In fact, they should have done this work years ago, but Pete Wilson decided to pass the buck on a ton of major projects to pretend he had balanced the budget.

It wasn't just Pete Wilson. It was those clowns in Bay Area politics. Good ole Willy Brown and his bizarre Yerba Buena Island plan delayed it. Jerry Brown, the Oakland Mayor, delayed it as well, when he thought the original plan (the single level, flat) was ugly and wouldn't make Oakland look good (HA HA HA).

Then the vote in 1998 where voters approved that nonbinding ballot measure to add rail lines (!!!) to the bridge. That would have removed something like 3 lanes of traffic on the suspension span.

But remember, there'll be a bike lane for the clowns on bikes who want to impede the traffic. Oh goodie.

I agree with you, this should have been finished +/- 10 years ago. As much as I love the Bay Area, I'm very glad I moved away more than 10 years ago.
 
N1120A
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:49 pm



Quoting Chrisair (Reply 12):
Jerry Brown, the Oakland Mayor, delayed it as well, when he thought the original plan (the single level, flat) was ugly and wouldn't make Oakland look good (HA HA HA).

Actually, it was ugly and wouldn't just make Oakland look bad. It would also be a PITA for boat traffic. The planned bridge is fine, they just need to get it finished.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 12):
Then the vote in 1998 where voters approved that nonbinding ballot measure to add rail lines (!!!) to the bridge. That would have removed something like 3 lanes of traffic on the suspension span.

You know, rail lines used to cross the Bay Bridge. Closed in 1958. It wouldn't be a bad idea, though BART has largely obviated the need for that.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 12):

But remember, there'll be a bike lane for the clowns on bikes who want to impede the traffic.

They won't impede traffic. Hence the point of a lane. It is actually a good idea.
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DocLightning
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:58 pm

This is really bad for me because I live in the City but on Monday I will start a new job an hour across the bridge.

My commute SHOULD be about 45 minutes. Because of this closure, I now have to take the Golden Gate Bridge (meaning I have to meander through the City). So, until this is fixed, my commute will take twice as long. This means that I will spend my first few weeks on the job having to leave my house no later than 7:15 AM and I won't be home until at least 10PM after I'm done with swim practice.

Since the "switch" on the Bay Bridge, this is the third unplanned closure. The first was an extension of the "switch" period when a crack was found in the bridge and had to be fixed. The second was when a Safeway truck took the curve too quickly and blocked all westbound lanes. And this has been in the last two months.

It's my opinion that an unplanned infrastructure emergency like this should be declared a Federal Emergency and that every engineering corps in the country should be put to work on it. That bridge is San Francisco's aorta and without it, we're in major trouble.

But this bridge is starting to look like the 787.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):

You know, rail lines used to cross the Bay Bridge. Closed in 1958. It wouldn't be a bad idea, though BART has largely obviated the need for that.

Suspension bridges generally don't like trains. The trains tend to make the bridge bow downwards, so the train has to go "uphill" for the whole bridge.
-Doc Lightning-

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Airstud
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:02 pm

Subway trains cross the Manhattan Bridge and the Villiamsboyg Bridge in New York, which are suspension bridges.

And PATCO trains cross the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philamadelphia.

(Streetcars crossed the Brooklyn Bridge when it first opened.)

Hey was there ever any streetcar/train traffic on the Triboro or George Washington bridges when they opened?
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Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:20 pm



Quoting Airstud (Thread starter):
Every day I watch MUNI buses barrel through red lights; making pedestrians scurry (I'm not embellishing here; this actually happens at least three times a day at 1st & Market).

Yes you are embellishing here. As much as I HATE MUNI (it's well documented here), that is something I almost never see. I always get drivers that stop at green lights and never go through intersections when the light has been green for awhile.
Our MUNI drivers are the slowest I've ever seen. I would love to get a driver that is fast. That rarely happens but it seems like Airliners.net members besides me gets those drivers.  confused 

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
I pretty much stopped reading when you put mocked the job title of Engineer.

I was thinking the same.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 7):
But then how come the thingy came undone?!?!?!

$h!t happens.
How come airplanes crash sometime?
How often has cables snapped on the Bay Bridge?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
In fact, they should have done this work years ago, but Pete Wilson decided to pass the buck on a ton of major projects to pretend he had balanced the budget. In reality, all he did was make things more expensive for the future.

That is partially true.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 12):
It wasn't just Pete Wilson. It was those clowns in Bay Area politics. Good ole Willy Brown and his bizarre Yerba Buena Island plan delayed it. Jerry Brown, the Oakland Mayor, delayed it as well, when he thought the original plan (the single level, flat) was ugly and wouldn't make Oakland look good (HA HA HA).

Then the vote in 1998 where voters approved that nonbinding ballot measure to add rail lines (!!!) to the bridge. That would have removed something like 3 lanes of traffic on the suspension span.

But remember, there'll be a bike lane for the clowns on bikes who want to impede the traffic. Oh goodie.

 checkmark 
Frikkin' environmentalist helped delay the process in fixing the Bay Bridge. These worthless environmentalist has to have a say in everything in local politics and they will block any new projects that exclusively benefits motorist.
On top of that, one of our worthless majors Art Agnos is responsible for the removal of the Embarcadero Freeway. He wanted CalTrans to build a freeway that was 100% seismically safe which is not possible.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
They won't impede traffic. Hence the point of a lane. It is actually a good idea.

As long as their lane isn't at the expense of lanes for cars.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
But this bridge is starting to look like the 787.

Sad but true.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Airstud
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Quoting Airstud (Thread starter):
Every day I watch MUNI buses barrel through red lights; making pedestrians scurry (I'm not embellishing here; this actually happens at least three times a day at 1st & Market).

Yes you are embellishing here.

'Scuse me; do you work at 1st & Market?

I cross that intersection several times each workday and I don't recall a day when I didn't see a MUNI bus barrelling through a red (not yellow; but rather, red) light.

Unless you've got a series 8-hour videos of the weekday traffic through that intersection, somehow "disproving" that which I have witnessed in person, you cain't be tellin' me that I'm embellishing anything.

Also: did Mayor Agnos remove the Embarc Freeway? 'Cause I thought the earthquake did that...
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Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:46 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 17):
'Scuse me; do you work at 1st & Market?

Used to work 1 block from there and walked through that intersection all the time. Still do actually. It's not even possible for a bus or even a car to build up enough speed to go "barrelling" through that intersection. Those blocks are very short and a driver would have to floor it from the next block over to reach a high speed. Our drivers may be stupid but they aren't that stupid.
Sorry but I don't cut pedestrians in the city any slack. San Francisco has the dumbest pedestrians I have ever seen! People cross intersections without looking both ways first. That is something that is taught to EVERY Kindergartner.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 17):
Also: did Mayor Agnos remove the Embarc Freeway? 'Cause I thought the earthquake did that...

The earthquake damaged the Embarcadero freeway and our stupid mayor at the time ask CalTrans to rebuild a freeway that was 100% seismically safe which is not possible.

[Edited 2009-10-28 17:10:41]
Bring back the Concorde
 
mham001
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:03 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
The earthquake damaged the Embarcadero freeway and our stupid mayor at the time ask CalTran to rebuild a freeway that was 100% seismically safe which is not possible.

Absolutely incredible. Has to be the only city in the country that can't build a through highway. HWY 101 on surface streets??? Amazing. The city that can't. I avoid the place like the plague.
 
chrisair
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:07 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Actually, it was ugly and wouldn't just make Oakland look bad. It would also be a PITA for boat traffic. The planned bridge is fine, they just need to get it finished.

It was hideous, yes. But to be quite honest, the 5-6 year delay in deciding what to do to make it "look good" was ridiculous. It also caused the price tag to skyrocket. You folks who wanted it to "look pretty" are now responsible for the $4 tolls (soon to be $5). As someone who uses it routinely when in town for work, I say thanks. I'm glad I don't live there.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
You know, rail lines used to cross the Bay Bridge. Closed in 1958. It wouldn't be a bad idea, though BART has largely obviated the need for that.

Yes. That was when trucks had the bottom lanes, plus a rail line. Two lanes each way on the upper deck. But what's the point? These folks wanted to run CalTrain over the bridge. No need. BART does the job good enough. Although being in the tube in an earthquake is one of my biggest fears. Add the cantilever section of the Bay Bridge to that list now, too.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
On top of that, one of our worthless majors Art Agnos is responsible for the removal of the Embarcadero Freeway.



Quoting Airstud (Reply 17):
Also: did Mayor Agnos remove the Embarc Freeway? 'Cause I thought the earthquake did that...

It actually started in the mid-80s with Mayor Feinstein. She wanted it gone with a couple board of supervisors members. The ballot measures were defeated. After the 89 earthquake, Agnos just helped move it along and I remember him grandstanding for the TV cameras with a hammer and pounding away on the deck. The freeway was damaged, but I don't think it was heavily damaged like the Cypress Freeway. It was closed after the earthquake, I know that.

The problem with the Embarcadero Freeway was that it didn't do anything. It just sorta ended halfway down the Embarcadero. I believe the original plan was to extend it to the Golden Gate Bridge, but that never materialized. I vaguely remember the freeway coming to an abrupt, and unfinished end at the North Beach off ramp. As anyone who has sat on 19th (like I did last week) at 5p on a Friday, it's a nightmare. They desperately need a freeway to connect the GGB and the Bay Bridge/80/101. If only 19th was a freeway....

FWIW, I think getting rid of the Embarcadero Freeway was the best thing SF did. I really do. I remember going downtown in the late 80s/early 90s before it came down and you never could get to the Piers easily. It was dingy and dirty around there.

Go over there now and you'll hardly recognize the place. It's beautiful. Parking is outrageous, but you can at least be surrounded by beauty when you're paying $6.00 to park for 90 minutes at Noon on a Friday. (F You Newsom for your 'congestion parking fees').

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
They won't impede traffic. Hence the point of a lane. It is actually a good idea.

Where will they go once they get to Treasure Island?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
But this bridge is starting to look like the 787.

This bridge will be finished before the 787.
 
Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:26 am

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
Yes. That was when trucks had the bottom lanes, plus a rail line. Two lanes each way on the upper deck. But what's the point?

Also there weren't as many drivers and the Bay Area wasn't as populated back then either.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
These folks wanted to run CalTrain over the bridge.

Our local politicians rather consult with environmentalist and angry bicyclist instead of engineers when it comes to building a bridge.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
It actually started in the mid-80s with Mayor Feinstein. She wanted it gone with a couple board of supervisors members. The ballot measures were defeated.

I heard she was a crappy mayor but she did turn out to be a decent US Senator.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
Agnos just helped move it along and I remember him grandstanding for the TV cameras with a hammer and pounding away on the deck.

What a total jerk!

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
The problem with the Embarcadero Freeway was that it didn't do anything. It just sorta ended halfway down the Embarcadero. I believe the original plan was to extend it to the Golden Gate Bridge, but that never materialized. I vaguely remember the freeway coming to an abrupt, and unfinished end at the North Beach off ramp. As anyone who has sat on 19th (like I did last week) at 5p on a Friday, it's a nightmare. They desperately need a freeway to connect the GGB and the Bay Bridge/80/101. If only 19th was a freeway....

FWIW, I think getting rid of the Embarcadero Freeway was the best thing SF did. I really do.

I know I am in the minority on this but I think it looked better with the Embarcadero Freeway. When looking at the skyline from Treasure Island, the double-decker freeway looks like a bow wrapped around the skyscrapers.
Also it was very convenient for those in going to & from North Beach on to the Bay Bridge and Peninsula. Now you have to sit in traffic, sit through tons of red lights, get held up by angry protesters, flicked off by angry cyclist and occasional wad of spit by panhandlers.
The new 'beautiful' water front and remodeled Ferry Building is full of shops that hardly anyone can afford to shop at. Most expensive boutiques, expensive parking and slower traffic is just what this city needs.  

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
Where will they go once they get to Treasure Island?

Are you using your brain again?  
I guarantee you, if these smelly, speed-addicted bicyclist get their way, they will complain and protest until they take away a few more lanes on the western span of the Bay Bridge.




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[Edited 2009-10-28 17:37:56]
Bring back the Concorde
 
steeler83
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:28 am



Quoting Airstud (Reply 15):
And PATCO trains cross the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philamadelphia.

Yep. I've been on that bridge. I've driven across it and I've taken the PATCO line. I think multimodal bridges (Ben Franklin, Manhattan, Williamsburg) are neat considering they provide travel for at least 2 modes of transportation.

Regarding the environmentalists. They are everywhere, but I would have to say that CA has far more per capita than just about anywhere else. Perhaps they overdid the whole hippy garbage...?

 Wink  duck 
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Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:42 am



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Regarding the environmentalists. They are everywhere, but I would have to say that CA has far more per capita than just about anywhere else.

There aren't enough sane, level-headed people to put them in check. Sadly, too many people have bought in to the is 'green' movement. Lot's of regular people have been suckered and suffer from eco-guilt.
I know Pen & Teller did a special on this. Read up more on this. I don't want the thread to drift any further.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Airstud
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:54 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
Our drivers may be stupid but they aren't that stupid.

Actually, they are. As I've multi-said, I've seen it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
Sorry but I don't cut pedestrians in the city any slack. San Francisco has the dumbest pedestrians I have ever seen! People cross intersections without looking both ways first. That is something that is taught to EVERY Kindergartner.

And I'm talking about people who have done precisely that, and are in the crosswalk, WITH PERMISSION FROM THE SIGNAL. If that's your idea of "the dumbest pedestrians" then I don't know what to tell you...

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
Where will they go once they get to Treasure Island?

Wherever on Treasure and Yerba Buena islands they want to!!!
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GQfluffy
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:01 am



Quoting Airstud (Reply 24):
And I'm talking about people who have done precisely that, and are in the crosswalk, WITH PERMISSION FROM THE SIGNAL. If that's your idea of "the dumbest pedestrians" then I don't know what to tell you...

If you trust your life to a series of lights on a street signal without looking...well...you get whatever is coming to you.

The idea of the new bridge is to improve traffic flow, not help out some bicyclists...but more power to you.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
lincoln
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:18 am



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 25):
If you trust your life to a series of lights on a street signal without looking...well...you get whatever is coming to you

I would beleive that "whatever is coming to you" would be a rather large settlement check from someone's insurance company.

Generally hitting pedestrian at any time is frowned upon... but if they're in a marked crosswalk with both the "pedestrian in marked crosswalk" automatic right-of-way and a the walk signal...

MUNI drivers scare the crap out of me -- as a passenger the first time I was in SF 10 years ago, and as a pedestrian when I was there a month ago [nearly had one clip me in a marked crosswalk at a non-signalized intersection-- I held my ground; I could use the money] -- it will be interesting when I'm there next month.
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Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:16 am



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 25):
If you trust your life to a series of lights on a street signal without looking...well...you get whatever is coming to you.

 checkmark 
Amen to that!
Your quote should go up on billboards all over this town!

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 26):
I would beleive that "whatever is coming to you" would be a rather large settlement check from someone's insurance company.

A check to your relatives because you won't be alive to collect anything.
Even if you do have the right of way as a pedestrian, you are supposed to look both ways before you cross the street.
People do this in every city except San Francisco.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 24):
Wherever on Treasure and Yerba Buena islands they want to!!!

...and then they'll complain that they can't get to San Francisco from Treasure Island and next thing you know, more existing lanes will be dedicated to bicycles creating even more of a traffic nightmare.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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WarRI1
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:24 am

These are the times, that I am glad that I live in little old Rhode Island. Probably more people cross that body of water in a day than we have in the whole state, or darn close.  Smile
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
chrisair
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:01 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 28):
Probably more people cross that body of water in a day than we have in the whole state, or darn close.

~250,000 people cross the Bay Bridge daily. Often times at about 5pm it feels like there's about 250,000 people crossing at once. In your direction.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Regarding the environmentalists. They are everywhere, but I would have to say that CA has far more per capita than just about anywhere else. Perhaps they overdid the whole hippy garbage...?

I'm not going to go on a tangent about the "greenies," since I sell environmentally friendly products for my company, but California (specifically SF and Berkeley) have always been out there. There's no way for me to explain it. And you won't understand unless you've lived in the area. But the people are just....out there. In Berkeley, there are protestors protesting the protest. God forbid I tell anyone I fly weekly. I'd be crucified up there for my insanely large carbon footprint.

And yes, there are environmentalists everywhere. They also live in Portland where they're just as anti freeway/car as San Francisco.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
Now you have to sit in traffic, sit through tons of red lights, get held up by angry protesters, flicked off by angry cyclist and occasional wad of spit by panhandlers.
The new 'beautiful' water front and remodeled Ferry Building is full of shops that hardly anyone can afford to shop at. Most expensive boutiques, expensive parking and slower traffic is just what this city needs.

I happen to love the new Embarcadero and not just the Ferry Building. Perhaps if that freeway had been pushed through to the GGB like it was supposed to, I'd be a bit more upset without it. I don't think the shops are that much more than other places in the city. I frequent Taylor's routinely and aside from the $5 milkshakes, the prices are decent, IMO. $5 for beer? Good deal.

Ever sit through a critical mass ride, when those clowns decide to ride down all lanes on 19th or Van Ness or Broadway or Mission or Folsom at 5p on a Friday?

Quoting Airstud (Reply 24):
Wherever on Treasure and Yerba Buena islands they want to!!!

Good for them, just don't come across the western span when I'm driving on it.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:09 am



Quoting Chrisair (Reply 29):
~250,000 people cross the Bay Bridge daily. Often times at about 5pm it feels like there's about 250,000 people crossing at once. In your direction.

Well, certainly in one week, they exceed our entire population,
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:31 am



Quoting Airstud (Reply 7):
OK, I guess so.

But then how come the thingy came undone?!?!?!

LMAO...such things happen...having worked aboard a survey vessel, it seemed like things went awry immediately after we seemed to be getting on a roll...every time...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
I pretty much stopped reading when you put mocked the job title of Engineer.

I was thinking the same.

Same here...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 28):
These are the times, that I am glad that I live in little old Rhode Island. Probably more people cross that body of water in a day than we have in the whole state, or darn close. Smile

LOL! The traffic in Providence (6-10 Connector mainly from my brief experience) can be a PITA though....and 138 Eastbound over Jamestown when the Pell is closed for an accident...though considering Docs potential 90 minute commute would get you across one and a half Rhode Islands....yeah, I'm glad  Wink

Sorry for being OT
"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
 
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WarRI1
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:00 am



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 31):
LOL! The traffic in Providence (6-10 Connector mainly from my brief experience) can be a PITA though....and 138 Eastbound over Jamestown when the Pell is closed for an accident...though considering Docs potential 90 minute commute would get you across one and a half Rhode Islands....yeah, I'm glad

It do make a difference. In this case as in sex, size does matter.  Smile
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:02 am



Quoting Chrisair (Reply 29):
I happen to love the new Embarcadero and not just the Ferry Building. Perhaps if that freeway had been pushed through to the GGB like it was supposed to

I don't like the idea of dropping traffic jams down to street level. It has made the city more of a pristine dollhouse which I am not a fan of. The Embarcadero south of the Bay Bridge used to be industrial. Products were actually made here. Hills Brothers coffee, Bethlehem Steel, Falstaff beer, Hostess Cupcakes & Twinkies and many other products were made here in city proper. Now it's become a play ground for new money classless transplants.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 29):
Ever sit through a critical mass ride,

I used to be one of those clowns years ago but then I matured and grew up. All of those brats need a good a$$whipping!
These clowns actually have a lot of say in traffic planning decisions in the city.
SHAME!
Bring back the Concorde
 
johnboy
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:35 am

I think bicycle lanes on the western span of the Bay Bridge makes perfect sense.
 Smile
 
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DocLightning
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:15 am



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 26):

I would beleive that "whatever is coming to you" would be a rather large settlement check from someone's insurance company.

Which, I'm sure makes you feel all lovely, warm, and fuzzy inside when you're paralyzed from the neck down and can't even scratch your own itching nose for the rest of your life.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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MYT332
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:30 am

I've got some questions about the BART.

First of all why does is smell like a rancid charter plane from the 1990's? Is it because of the cloth seats?

Secondly why do the announcements at the stations sound like Stephen Hawking? I'd be waiting for my ride home from work and then I'd hear the old Doc fire up with '12 car Pitsburg Bay Point Train' and I couldn't help but laugh.

Thirdly who thought those tickets machines were a good idea? I'd be there every day at 7am adding and then deducting the exact money for a single trip and it was such a pain in the ass! Took me a while to figure out it's best to buy more than one journey at a time. Big grin

Saying all of that I do rather like the BART and if anybody wants a ticket still with $5.30 on it and wants to pay for international shipping then just let me know! Obviously worth the hassle!  Wink

Good luck to the morning commuters though. I remember it got packed at the peaks and this was before the bridge fell to pieces.
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ltbewr
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:50 am

This bridge system is unlike any other in the world in it's design and faces issues that really challenge it including earthquakes. It is probably well overused from it's original design, has design flaws that are now becoming much more apparent and I would suggest that budget issues of the region and state probably deferred critical maintenance. It is in process of being replaced albeit later than it should have been due to politics, environmentalists and financial issues.
Now you have a real mess of a failing bridge and insufficient alternatives. Hopefully it will encourage innovative thinking to deal with this crises including shifting heavy trucking to off-peak hours, allowing fewer people to have to work in the city by setting up satellite offices on the other side of the Bay or more working in the home, allowing longer days but only have to work 4 days a week and so on.
 
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STT757
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:38 pm



Quoting Airstud (Reply 15):
Hey was there ever any streetcar/train traffic on the Triboro or George Washington bridges when they opened?

The George Washington Bridge when originally opened in 1931 had one level for cars, it was designed to accommodate a lower level for a subway from NYC to Bergen County NJ. In 1962 they opened the newly completed second (lower) level of the George Washington bridge, however it was built for vehicles not the Subway.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
PHLBOS
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:14 pm



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 31):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 28):
These are the times, that I am glad that I live in little old Rhode Island. Probably more people cross that body of water in a day than we have in the whole state, or darn close. Smile

LOL! The traffic in Providence (6-10 Connector mainly from my brief experience) can be a PITA though....and 138 Eastbound over Jamestown when the Pell is closed for an accident...though considering Docs potential 90 minute commute would get you across one and a half Rhode Islands....yeah, I'm glad

Sorry for being OT

Actually, for roughly during a 6-month period in 1986 when the Mount Hope Bridge (linking Bristol to Portsmouth, RI) was closed for a major overhaul; many commuters saw their average commuting time triple and even quadruple during that period. The hardest hit by the closure were those who worked and/or attended Roger Williams University (then, it was still Roger Williams College); the campus was located at the southern end of Bristol at the northern end of the bridge.

To further add insult to injury, the college's Architecture Division had design studios in a leased space at a public school in Portsmouth, about 3 miles south; the on-site Archtecture Building w/in-house design studios didn't open until 1987. The closure added on about 22 extra miles one-way (fortunately, a temporary shuttle bus service to transport those w/out cars from campus to studios and vice-versa). The worst part of the drive was the first 8 miles heading NORTH on Route 136 into Swansea, Massachusetts to pick up I-195; all stop-and-go-traffic.

As far as 138 and Jamestown is concerned; it was a lot worse before the current Jamestown Bridge was built. The old (and long gone) 1938 span was a rickety (sp) 2-laner.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 15):
And PATCO trains cross the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philadelphia.

IIRC, when that bridge first opened (originally called the Delaware River Bridge) in 1926; there were trolley tracks along the actual bridge; the cantilevered portions (that support the PATCO tracks) came later.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
On top of that, one of our worthless majors Art Agnos is responsible for the removal of the Embarcadero Freeway. He wanted CalTrans to build a freeway that was 100% seismically safe which is not possible.

Sadly, there are a lot of planners in other cities (Philly being one of them) that want to do similar and have mentioned the Embarcadero Freeway removal as a model. Last summer, some yo-yo planners in Philly (including the group Penn Praxis) had a meeting and were seriously contemplating removing a section of I-95 near Penn's Landing as a means of linking the city's core to the waterfront when the time comes to rehab the highway (it's now 30 years old). ANYONE who's ever been over there knows darn well that the nearby alternative roadways CAN NOT handle the traffic loads that would be added if even a small piece of I-95 was removed.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:42 pm



Quoting Johnboy (Reply 34):
I think bicycle lanes on the western span of the Bay Bridge makes perfect sense.

Only if a 3rd. deck was added underneath the lower deck specifically for pedestrians.

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 36):
First of all why does is smell like a rancid charter plane from the 1990's? Is it because of the cloth seats?

Stinky, smelly homeless bums.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 37):
It is probably well overused from it's original design,

Bingo!
There was supposed to be a second Bay Bridge (South Bridge) that was supposed to extend from Ceasar Chavez Ave. and cross the bay and end in Alameda or just south of the Oakland airport. That never happened because......

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 37):
politics, environmentalists and financial issues



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
Sadly, there are a lot of planners in other cities (Philly being one of them) that want to do similar and have mentioned the Embarcadero Freeway removal as a model.

Sorry to hear about that. I hope Penn Praxis loses out on that foolish proposal.
When the Embarcadero freeway was torn down in 1991, real estate prices shot up 300% making the city even more expensive.
Bring back the Concorde
 
N1120A
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):

As long as their lane isn't at the expense of lanes for cars.

It won't be. Actually, I believe the new bridge is supposed to be wider.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
On top of that, one of our worthless majors Art Agnos is responsible for the removal of the Embarcadero Freeway.

That eyesore should have never been there in the first place.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):

Suspension bridges generally don't like trains. The trains tend to make the bridge bow downwards, so the train has to go "uphill" for the whole bridge.

Trains ran on the Bay Bridge for more than 2 decades.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
StuckInCA
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:14 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
smelly, speed-addicted bicyclist get their way

Sigh. Somebody steal your bike from you when you were a kid?

It's funny how people complain when cyclists try to get bike lanes included in planning, they complain when cyclists ride on the road when there aren't bike lanes (their right), and they complain when cyclists ride off road.

Wonder why so many cyclists aren't too bothered by the fact that you're bothered?
 
Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 42):

Sigh. Somebody steal your bike from you when you were a kid?

It's funny how people complain when cyclists try to get bike lanes included in planning, they complain when cyclists ride on the road when there aren't bike lanes (their right), and they complain when cyclists ride off road.

Wonder why so many cyclists aren't too bothered by the fact that you're bothered?

 confused 

I am a cyclist myself but I don't agree with the bicycle activist. It's not a viable transportation alternative. I'll ride short trips to the store and for exercise but I always yield to motorist.
Many cyclist here don't and can't understand why so many get hit by cars.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
That eyesore should have never been there in the first place.

It should have went to the Golden Gate Bridge like it was originally planned.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DocLightning
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:34 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):

It should have went to the Golden Gate Bridge like it was originally planned.

Yeah. The lack of any way of quickly getting from 101 to 101 is really frustrating. Something needs to be built to remove the need to spend up to an hour in city traffic (which can happen on busy weekends) to get the 5 miles from one end of 101 to the other.

I think a tunnel is probably the best solution, but it will still mean that someone is going to have to get a building or two eminent domained. And noooo, that can't happen!
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:43 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
Yeah. The lack of any way of quickly getting from 101 to 101 is really frustrating. Something needs to be built to remove the need to spend up to an hour in city traffic (which can happen on busy weekends) to get the 5 miles from one end of 101 to the other.

I think a tunnel is probably the best solution, but it will still mean that someone is going to have to get a building or two eminent domained. And noooo, that can't happen!

City Hall's solution would be to ride MUNI, bicycles and give up our cars.  Yeah sure
Our local elected officials have abandoned motorist. The original interstate plan of the 1950s should have went full-speed ahead without out any regard to the NIMBY protests of that time.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Aaron747
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:00 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
seriously contemplating removing a section of I-95 near Penn's Landing as a means of linking the city's core to the waterfront when the time comes to rehab the highway

That's positively nuts. Completely different waterfront and traffic patterns. You can't just take a slice out of one of the busiest sections of I-95.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
The original interstate plan of the 1950s should have went full-speed ahead without out any regard to the NIMBY protests of that time.

You can't be serious:

The original 1947 plan had all kinds of unecessary crap like a freeway running the length of Ocean Beach and three crosstown routes, including through Mt. Sutro!



The 1955 plan was scaled back significantly but as with Beverly Hills killing a crosstown freeway for decades in LA County there's no way they'd have ever succeeded with sending 480 through the Marina, nor having Pac Heights breathe all the exhaust.

http://www.cahighways.org/maps/1955trafficways.jpg
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Superfly
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:05 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 46):
You can't be serious:

I meant the plan from the 1950s.
One thing that should have went through was the Southern Crossing bridge.
Bring back the Concorde
 
N1120A
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:14 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
City Hall's solution would be to ride MUNI, bicycles and give up our cars. Yeah sure
Our local elected officials have abandoned motorist. The original interstate plan of the 1950s should have went full-speed ahead without out any regard to the NIMBY protests of that time.

Public transportation is a good thing, not a bad thing. Not the least of which because it makes driving better for all of us.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 46):
The 1955 plan was scaled back significantly but as with Beverly Hills killing a crosstown freeway for decades in LA County there's no way they'd have ever succeeded with sending 480 through the Marina, nor having Pac Heights breathe all the exhaust.

Luckily, Beverly Hills has thrown its weight behind Metro Rail expansion.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PHLBOS
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RE: SF-Oakland Bay Bridge Closed Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:33 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 46):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 39):
seriously contemplating removing a section of I-95 near Penn's Landing as a means of linking the city's core to the waterfront when the time comes to rehab the highway

That's positively nuts. Completely different waterfront and traffic patterns. You can't just take a slice out of one of the busiest sections of I-95.

 checkmark  I completely agree with you 100% and thankfully, when Center City District Paul Levy suggest similar about 10 years ago; PennDOT shot him down (and rightfully so IMHO).

What's troubling to me is that some of these city planners (who obviously think vheicles and highways are the enemy) are revisiting this insanity (even in the talking stages) when a rehab replacement for I-95 is coming due. Hopefully, the mandatory change in Governors (Rendell can't serve a 3rd term) in 2011 will stop this idiotic proposal once and for all.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981

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