texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:22 pm

Why is it better? Because it is my idea of course! Critiques welcome.

Is a half baked plan better than no plan? The current plan the Democrats want to push through Congress, while well intentioned, fails to truly lower health care costs and make it available to everybody quickly. What we really need is free universal health care. But let's face it. Universal health care by itself will not pass through Congress. To successfully sell universal health care, you need more in the bill and you need a better marketing program. What you need is a comprehensive package.

Luckily, I have come up with an idea: The Business Relief and Growth Act of 2009 (or 2010). Here is what you offer: universal healthcare; a six-month tax free period for small and medium size businesses (defined as businesses with less than 500 employees) for technology or environmental investments (defined as any upgrade or investment in technological processes that will make the business run more efficiently or any environmental investment, including things like reinstalling insulation, that reduce the business's carbon footprint, emissions, or other environmental measures by greater than 5%); and a six-month period for all businesses where any investment in technology will allow for a greatly increased rate of depreciation, meaning large businesses will be able to basically write down their new technology investments at faster rates, allowing them to pay lower taxes over the life of the investment.

Why would this plan work while the current plan has, if not failed, flailed around in uncertainty? It is all about the money and marketing. Sure, market it here and there as a universal health care package. But the sure fire way to get support behind the bill is to market it as a tax break for small businesses and a reinvestment in American businesses. The best part is that you could truthfully market this as an across the board business tax break as well as a reinvestment in American businesses. It would not be a spurious claim, like the Republican Claim of death panels and other such nonsense. You would be able to paint everybody voting against the bill as anti-business, anti-American, pro-tax increase politicians who do not give a damn about their constituents.

But how would it be a reinvestment in American businesses? If the government takes over health care, businesses in the U.S. would save nearly $1 trillion dollars per year that they would otherwise spend on insurance premiums. With $1 trillion saved, companies would have more money to invest in new projects, new building, new employees, and other innovations like new research. Additionally, these technology and environmental purchases will either be tax free (if your business has less than 500 employees) or will have a minimal long term tax hit (for all businesses). Those tax breaks could contribute billions more dollars of potential investment to American businesses, creating new jobs, raising income, alleviating the housing and credit crises, and, potentially, bringing us into a new period of increased income, investment, and employment within 12 months of the bill being enacted.

The bill would come at a cost, true. The United States government would be assuming a greater financial burden by covering health care. However, with healthier citizens, healthier businesses, and more money flowing into the market, the situation would begin to correct itself sooner rather than later. Yes, there are still some areas where the government must cut back spending. Of course, there are also areas where the government needs to increase spending. It is all part of the game. But this plan would promote long term prosperity and an end to the recession, likely within 12-18 months.

Congress, though, is not brave enough to enact such a plan. And that should give us all reason for concern.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
MSNDC9
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:14 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:28 pm

You're an even bigger socialist than Pelosi.

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:57 pm



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):
You're an even bigger socialist than Pelosi.

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?

Constructive. Thanks. And providing tax breaks for businesses is not exactly socialist. Neither is promoting business. But what does reality matter if you get to use a scary label?

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:59 pm

Texan is right. One of the biggest reasons American business has trouble competing, despite our allegedly much more business-friendly laws than other industrialized nations, is the massive burden businesses shoulder in health and retirement costs. Essentially every other industrialized country handles this through the government, which saves massive amounts of money through economies of scale as well as a reduced overall capital outlay by business. People try and focus on taxes, but money paid is money paid, regardless of where it goes.

Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?

So people should have to pay to live? Sounds like the most regressive form of taxation ever.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:07 pm



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?

 checkmark  Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege." Just because we are the wealthiest country in the world, doesn't mean we should have to have a bureaucratically (see incompetent) government run universal health care system. Next, liberals will be demanding that we the TAX PAYING citizens be forced to provide cheap cars, cell phones, and laptops to the poor and needy. I don't get the whole entitlement mindset of liberals, and to them us Conservatives are 'uncompassionate'... Yeah sure

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
If the government takes over health care, businesses in the U.S. would save nearly $1 trillion dollars per year that they would otherwise spend on insurance premiums.

If this were true, then why does the Democrats current bill cost upwards of 1.2 TRILLION dollars, and subject to balloon even more?? Also, according to the CBO's latest cost estimates on the latest garbage health care bill, the Democrats plan to generate 167 Billion over 10 years in fines paid by businesses and individuals ($750.00 per employee/year) who don't purchase health care...so they are planning on bringing in that 167 billion dollars banking on people not purchasing health care. What will happen if far more people purchase health care? Their BS bill will grow billions more because of lost revenue from penalty fines they won't be getting?? It's absolutely ludicrous.

On a side note, unemployment just hit 10.2%, and the Democrats are still pushing hard as ever to pass a massive tax increasing, massive spending bill?? Even worse for the Democrats, is they are now projecting unemployment will remain above 10% through next summer...good luck in 2010 fellas.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:10 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege."

What about "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?

To have "life".. you need health care..

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
according to the CBO's latest cost estimates

And what was the CBOs report on the Republican Health plan? The report is out you know.
Step into my office, baby
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:25 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege."

The government's job is "to promote the general welfare." What is more basic to general welfare than being healthy and, you know, alive? Furthermore, you are missing the point: this is essentially a tax break for businesses. Of over $1 trillion. Per year. Plus the investment tax breaks I discussed. Which will increase jobs and help revive the economy. But it is so much easier to just label things socialist because you refuse to comprehend that information. Oh well.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Next, liberals will be demanding that we the TAX PAYING citizens be forced to provide cheap cars, cell phones, and laptops to the poor and needy.

Yes. Making sure people stay alive = let us give free cars, phones and laptops to everybody. Seriously? That may be one of the most flawed slippery slope arguments I have ever read.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
If this were true, then why does the Democrats current bill cost upwards of 1.2 TRILLION dollars, and subject to balloon even more?? Also, according to the CBO's latest cost estimates on the latest garbage health care bill, the Democrats plan to generate 167 Billion over 10 years in fines paid by businesses and individuals ($750.00 per employee/year) who don't purchase health care

As I said, the current bill is not a good bill. I would rather have no bill than a bad bill. But let us put your stats in perspective quickly and assume they would stay true under my idea (which it is not). So a bill would seek to gain $167 billion over ten years. Expensive. Now, let us compare that to how much money businesses save by NOT being required to pay for health care (essentially, a health care tax that I am trying to remove . . . why do you hate businesses and want increased taxation?). That is still a savings over 10 years of over $9 TRILLION dollars. Not to mention the investment tax breaks and increased depreciation available in the other part of my plan. Which would save billions more. Your argument still makes no sense and, under your plan, businesses have less money to spend on their business and more money that must be paid in taxes. Why do you hate American businesses?

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:31 pm



Quoting Texan (Reply 6):

Seriously. Universal single payer is a PRO-business, PRO-taxpayer solution. Do any of the so called "conservatives" out there understand how much the US auto industry alone would save? Not to mention if we reworked Social Security so it 1) couldn't be raided to pay for other government projects and 2) combined with a reworked Medicare to mean seniors didn't come up short every month?

We have this massively, dangerously deregulated business environment in this country and are just about the most business unfriendly country in the world anymore because of all the ancillary costs business have to take on here. That ain't capitalism folks.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:32 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Seriously. Universal single payer is a PRO-business, PRO-taxpayer solution.

No it isn't...at least not the bill in front of us now. It's yet another one of Obama and the liberals bull$hit massive tax/massive spend power grab bills. It's got nothing to do with the 'well being' of Americans and Obama is DEFINITELY NOT PRO anything but government. If Obama wanted to get us out of this recession faster, he'd have paid a lot more attention to providing help to small business. Owning my own business with 6 employees, I can tell you, there was virtually no help for us, only pay backs to his union and wall street pals.

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
As I said, the current bill is not a good bill.

This we can agree on  checkmark 

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
Furthermore, you are missing the point: this is essentially a tax break for businesses. Of over $1 trillion. Per year. Plus the investment tax breaks I discussed. Which will increase jobs and help revive the economy.

Well your proposed health care bill would be nice if there was no government control, could guarantee there'd be no health care provided to illegal immigrants, and could guarantee the quality of my health care wouldn't drop. I'm sensitive to these having an older brother whose currently a doctor and captain in the Army. Lowering taxes and cost is always good. But just how realistic do you think it is to cover the 15% of the population w/out health insurance, keeping health care costs down, providing the quality of care we currently have (which is the best in the world-the system is what needs help, not the medicine itself), while still saving 1 Trillion dollars per year??? You are either smarter than all of the Dems and Reps in D.C. or we just have a bunch of morons with no common sense in D.C. It's definitely the latter at the very least.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
MSNDC9
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:14 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:39 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 5):
To have "life".. you need health care..

Everyone in American can get health care. What's your point?
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:39 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
We have this massively, dangerously deregulated business environment in this country and are just about the most business unfriendly country in the world anymore because of all the ancillary costs business have to take on here. That ain't capitalism folks.

Neither is anything Obama has proposed. Are you going to call him out on that?? Government takeovers are about the least Capitalist and UnAmerican things I can think of.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:45 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):

Neither is anything Obama has proposed. Are you going to call him out on that??

Um, I will be the first to say the Democrat plan is imperfect...because it doesn't go far enough.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):
Government takeovers are about the least Capitalist and UnAmerican things I can think of.

You have no idea what you are talking about? Incidentally, how often do you use the US Postal Service?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:13 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 8):
Well your proposed health care bill would be nice if there was no government control, could guarantee there'd be no health care provided to illegal immigrants, and could guarantee the quality of my health care wouldn't drop. I'm sensitive to these having an older brother whose currently a doctor and captain in the Army. Lowering taxes and cost is always good. But just how realistic do you think it is to cover the 15% of the population w/out health insurance, keeping health care costs down, providing the quality of care we currently have (which is the best in the world-the system is what needs help, not the medicine itself), while still saving 1 Trillion dollars per year???

I have no problem having it run by a non-profit with governmental oversight, like the Swiss have. That way the amount of government interference is minimal and the bureaucracy is reduced dramatically, even from the current private sector. The decrease in bureaucracy saves billions per year, reducing the cost of health care to the government.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I specifically stated this proposal would save private business over $1 trillion per year, not the government. The government cost would increase, although with the decreased administration costs and negotiated deals for medicine and some services, the cost to government should not be astronomical, especially considering the government pays a lot for uninsured individuals already. I do not have exact numbers, though.

More income will come from the normal taxes collected as more people are employed and the tax base increases. Furthermore, businesses will be selling more products, increasing taxes collected there too, without having to raise the tax rate. That should, theoretically, reduce the costs to a manageable level. We do need, however, to continue to streamline governmental programs and processes to reduce costs in other organizations and programs.

I would also disagree that the quality of care we currently have is the best in the world. We rank 31st in Life Expectancy, 37th in Infant Mortality, and 34th in Maternal Mortality. http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat/EN_WHS09_Full.pdf. In terms of avoiding preventable deaths, the U.S. ranked last out of the 19 countries surveyed in another report. http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/411947_ushealthcare_quality.pdf. We do have a good health care system, but it needs to be improved and there needs to be equal access.

As a final thought, think of how much money could be saved by allowing people to receive preventative health care instead of having people wait until they need emergency care before going to the hospital. That, too, would reduce health care costs dramatically.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:23 pm



Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
Another thing to keep in mind is that I specifically stated this proposal would save private business over $1 trillion per year, not the government. The government cost would increase, although with the decreased administration costs and negotiated deals for medicine and some services, the cost to government should not be astronomical, especially considering the government pays a lot for uninsured individuals already. I do not have exact numbers, though.

More income will come from the normal taxes collected as more people are employed and the tax base increases. Furthermore, businesses will be selling more products, increasing taxes collected there too, without having to raise the tax rate. That should, theoretically, reduce the costs to a manageable level. We do need, however, to continue to streamline governmental programs and processes to reduce costs in other organizations and programs.

Not to mention the greater taxes collected from higher profit margins, because businesses will no longer be writing off so much money in health care costs.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:29 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Not to mention the greater taxes collected from higher profit margins, because businesses will no longer be writing off so much money in health care costs.

True, forgot about that!

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:29 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
US Postal Service?

I avoid it like the plague. If there was another alternative, I'd use it. It's government run...a glimpse of how government run health care would work.

Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
I would also disagree that the quality of care we currently have is the best in the world. We rank 31st in Life Expectancy, 37th in Infant Mortality, and 34th in Maternal Mortality. http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat/EN_WHS09_Full.pdf. In terms of avoiding preventable deaths, the U.S. ranked last out of the 19 countries surveyed in another report. http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/411947_ushealthcare_quality.pdf. We do have a good health care system, but it needs to be improved and there needs to be equal access.

But these numbers aren't an accurate reflection of our quality of medicine. How bout we look at the American lifestyle...our diet/exercise/hours of work/etc. We live far more abusive lifestyles than many countries around the world. I lived in Cleveland for years, and they had daily chartered flights to and from Canada that would bring people to the Cleveland Clinic for heart surgeries. When I asked why, a health care professional said because the wait in Canada is too long, and their system is over burdened...see socialized medicine.

Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
As a final thought, think of how much money could be saved by allowing people to receive preventative health care instead of having people wait until they need emergency care before going to the hospital.

This is an important point Texan. It's the preventative care that's critical too. Like I said, my older brother is a doctor, and many of his patients are those who have abused their bodies to oblivion and want him to put them back together. Well that cost money, and a lot of it. And the poor do have health care, and they use it...the ER. On one of my brother's rotations (his OB rotation), 70% of the babies he delivered were Hispanic babies from parents who couldn't speak a lick of English. He had to have a translator...you think illegal immigrants pay their hospital bills? Look at California's Hospital closures due to unpaid medical bills.

Back on point, you are right about preventative care. I think this is one part that is overlooked by many. And I do NOT think that giving everyone affordable access to health care will promote better preventative care. I know several people that have health insurance, but only use it when they absolutely have to, not because of co-pay costs, but because they don't want to go unless it's an emergency. Again, this is a good point, and requires an entirely different thread alone.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:30 pm



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 9):
Everyone in American can get health care. What's your point?

How much money do we spend on "liberty"?
Step into my office, baby
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:39 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
How much money do we spend on "liberty"?

Well you must have liberty to have health care. You do not have to have health care to have liberty.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:49 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
When I asked why, a health care professional said because the wait in Canada is too long, and their system is over burdened.

Well, but then there are some HMO plans like the one my mother is on through her work, that say that if they go to one specific clinic, in which there is only one nurse and one physician's assistant (no doctors), then they receive their preventive care treatment for free. If they go anywhere else, they must pay full price through the first $2,000. Lots of people don't have an extra $2,000 and will just wait until they get sick and go for emergency care rather than wait for an appointment. The current wait time for an appointment at that clinic is 2.5 weeks, by the way, and they do not accept walk ins. HMOs and PPOs are helping wreak havoc on our health care system.

To avoid lengthy delays, we should continue to encourage people to go to medical school. The pay should take care of itself: remember, we are lowering overhead costs for hospitals and doctors by relieving them of having to argue and deal with health insurance companies who do not want to pay for procedures. This decrease in overhead means doctors and hospitals will have more money in their practice to spend elsewhere -- new equipment, technological improvements (see the small/medium size tax break discussed in my proposal), or expanding their practice -- that, in return, should make medical care more accessible for more people. Moreover, with rates negotiated by the non-profit or government run system, other overhead costs, such as CT Scans, MRIs, blood tests, etc., could decrease in cost, making them more available and also adding to the expendable income doctors have. Therefore, doctors win because they will have more money in the bank. Patients win because they have more money in the bank. Businesses win because they are being relieved of major costs. Regular people win because businesses are investing in improvements, creating jobs, which allows more people to buy homes and cars, thereby revitalizing the economy. The government wins because it collects more tax dollars from the revitalized tax base without having to raise taxes, it decreases the cost of medical procedures leading to decreased spending in some areas of medicine, and the government becomes instrumental in promoting the health and safety of its citizens through the initiative. In other words, everybody wins, the economy recovers, and we all lead happier, healthier lives.

You are right, though, that we also need to get off our butts and lead a more active lifestyle and watch our diets. That is indeed worthy of a thread of its own.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
N104UA
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:54 pm

I have the best plan ever for health care reform

SINGLE PAYER

(i.e. Medicare for ALL)
it is just that simple
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:54 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
You do not have to have health care to have liberty.

You have to have life to have liberty..

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
Well you must have liberty to have health care

Actually Cuba has health care.
Step into my office, baby
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:24 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 20):
Actually Cuba has health care.

 rotfl  You got me there...I wonder how magnificent their health care is???
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:28 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
rotfl You got me there...I wonder how magnificent their health care is???

You said "health care" not "good health care"

But the reason that i say Cuba - is that in fact their health care, while vastly inferior to the US - is not that bad.

But still there is some form of Health Care - even though they dont have freedom..

How much has Freedom cost the US?
Step into my office, baby
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:32 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
I avoid it like the plague. If there was another alternative, I'd use it. It's government run...a glimpse of how government run health care would work.

You are kidding, right? 44 cents to send a letter anywhere in the country? It works amazingly well. Also, it is only sort of governmental, you know that, right?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:47 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
You are kidding, right? 44 cents to send a letter anywhere in the country? It works amazingly well. Also, it is only sort of governmental, you know that, right?

Yes I prefer not to go there, because the attitude is always "we move at one pace only folks, so if there's a line, tough luck." There's never any sense of urgency, never any sense of giving a $hit about their customers, and yes I'm aware they're not entirely government run. But I can only imagine how wonderful a health care system run by a bunch of bureaucratic morons who have also, might I add, failed at running medicare and social security, as well as got us trillions in debt, and the mountain of debt (especially under Obama-1.8-2.1 Trillion his first 10 months in office-he even out did Bush and that says a lot) seems to grow exponentially daily. Why would I ever want the government to run our health care???
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:53 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 24):
failed at running medicare and social security

Um, no. Only because GOP governments decided to raid the Social Security kitty to pay for their bloated, unconservative spending is Social Security having issues. Remember Al Gore's lockbox? We should have that now.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 24):
Why would I ever want the government to run our health care???

Because it would save this country trillions.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:13 pm

N1120A , Texan, great posts as usual.

I am a small business owner and provide fully paid health care to my employees. I would really like everyone to either take care of it themselves, or better still, make it a public utility. It's also a tax-free expense for me, so thoughtfully provided for by the insurance lobby.

Most of the folks who rails against universal health care have never spent a dime on health insurance and expect their employer to foot the bill. Now that's Socialism!

I am also well aware of Blue Cross and Medicare who are actually extremely efficient (Seniors love Medicare!), and they do a great job, better than Oxford and Aetna etc.

I can't wait for the day when I can focus on paying my employees for the work they do and not for Health Insurance, which is not my business anyway. Employer-provided Health Care is an outdated concept. We need to understand the the insurance companies are just middlemen, and provide no value except through administration of benefits and actuarial planning: something a caveman could do. My competition overseas does not have to worry about this stuff, even in France  Smile
 
Ken777
Posts: 9023
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:27 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege."

So government dollars shouldn't worry about paying out big dollars for the H1N1 virus?

Or spending money for any level of public health?

Maybe we can drop Medicare so the non-rich elderly can die faster.

And let's forget Medicaid. It doesn't matter that conservatives work hard to keep minimum wage far below a level where private health insurance is affordable.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
If this were true, then why does the Democrats current bill cost upwards of 1.2 TRILLION dollars, and subject to balloon even more??

And what is the cost to employers and self employed for insurance today?

What percentage of the GDP is it?

And how big an increase of a percentage of the GDP over the past 50 years has it grown?

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
On a side note, unemployment just hit 10.2%

It now called the Great Recession - the parting gift of a conservative Republican administration.

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
The government's job is "to promote the general welfare."

The conservative's view of "General welfare" is their own pocketbook. Forget anything else.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 5):
What about "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?

Not if it costs conservatives two cents in tax dollars.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 8):
No it isn't...at least not the bill in front of us now.

One of the least expensive approaches is to use a tax on profitability for core care. That eases up the burden on companies when they are in start-up mode, or going through tough time. It also allows for a catch up when things get better.

By the way, "core care" isn't a Cadillac program. You might end up in a bed in a ward instead of a private room, but wards are pretty efficient - especially with "Matron" watching over the ward.

You might also end up with a resident if that's all your condition needs.

Get rid of core costs on most insurance plans and the private coverage takes a nose dive in costs.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 8):
Well your proposed health care bill would be nice if there was no government control,

With no government control the private insurance companies would be totally unrestricted.

That's even scarier than Palin as President!

Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 9):
Everyone in American can get health care.

Is that a Dick Cheney joke?

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):
Government takeovers are about the least Capitalist and UnAmerican things I can think of.

And allowing the quality of health care for Americans through private sector treatment denials is one of the most embarrassing situations I can think of.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
It's government run...a glimpse of how government run health care would work.

Check out some of the litigation against private health insurance companies if you believe your approach is so pure.

Not up to Madoff standard, but pretty sorry by any standard.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
Well you must have liberty to have health care.

Odd statement since Cuba is about equal to the US in some of the medical outcome standards - like infant mortality rates.
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:31 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Quoting EA772LR (Reply 24):
Why would I ever want the government to run our health care???

Because it would save this country trillions.

 rotfl  that is the most absurd thing I've read in quite some time...the U.S. government taking control of something and reining in spending, saving trillions  rotfl  You've got to be kidding me.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Um, no. Only because GOP governments decided to raid the Social Security kitty to pay for their bloated, unconservative spending is Social Security having issues. Remember Al Gore's lockbox? We should have that now.

Yeah, and Liberal administrations never had anything to do with that... rotfl  What planet have you been on?? Obama is the single biggest spending president in the history of the United States (or certainly on his way). He's ran up close to a !!!!!$2,000,000,000,000.00!!!!! deficit in his first 10 months! He promised that his 800,000,000,000.00 Porkulus bill will save or create 3 million jobs, and curb unemployment to no more than 8 percent. We're at 10.2% and rising. The liberals have just as much to do with raiding Social Security as any Conservative.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 28):
that is the most absurd thing I've read in quite some time...the U.S. government taking control of something and reining in spending, saving trillions rotfl You've got to be kidding me.

Are you serious? Do you not understand what the massive savings would be if business stopped paying directly for health care?

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 28):
The liberals have just as much to do with raiding Social Security as any Conservative.

Riiiight. That's why Mr. "Liberal" Al Gore is the one who actually had the best plan to leave it alone.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 28):
What planet have you been on?? Obama is the single biggest spending president in the history of the United States (or certainly on his way). He's ran up close to a !!!!!$2,000,000,000,000.00!!!!! deficit in his first 10 months! He promised that his 800,000,000,000.00 Porkulus bill will save or create 3 million jobs, and curb unemployment to no more than 8 percent. We're at 10.2% and rising

Dude. He's trying to dig this country out of this mess started by the pseudo-conservatives. Last time we had a balanced budget? Under actual-conservative President Clinton.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
JRDC930
Posts: 882
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:36 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:53 pm

It doesnt sound too bad. The current plan is certainly very half-baked, and doesnt cover enough people. like you said, we need universal health care, but that wont happen as long as people are foolish enough to keep electing republicans. Republicans are simply too greedy to support a plan that helps the less fortunate, because they would have to part with some of their precious millions. The fact is, if most of Europe can provide a single payer system, the US should more than be able to pay for a single payer universal system. Its not about weather or not we can afford it, its weather or not the greedy wealthy are willing to do something for the greater good rather than their selfish selves..your plan might be an interesting compromise. But i believe a single payer system is feasable; the Democrats just have to keep working on kicking the republicans out of office,and show to people just how callus republican politicians are...increase the senate and house majorities...and we may have hope yet for a universal government funded plan...however we would have to wait a while for those majorities to increase.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:59 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
So government dollars shouldn't worry about paying out big dollars for the H1N1 virus?

Or spending money for any level of public health?

Maybe we can drop Medicare so the non-rich elderly can die faster.

I never said government spending money (our tax dollars) to fund research was a bad thing, just government run anything is a bad thing. They've failed to run Medicare and SS, and dug us into trillions in debt and growing quickly under Obama...why is a government takeover the only solution??

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
And what is the cost to employers and self employed for insurance today?

What percentage of the GDP is it?

A hell of a lot less than the money they're talking about spending and the money I'll have to pay my employees under their garbage plan.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
It now called the Great Recession - the parting gift of a conservative Republican administration.

Why do people perpetuate this lie?? This mess was kicked in motion under Jimmy Carter's 'Community Reinvestment Act of 1977' which began the sub-prime lending followed by several administrations who slowly eroded the oversight. Congress was approached in 2004 about adding more oversight to Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac but Mr. Barney Frank and other African American representatives complained that it would discourage home buying, and all those greedy bastards cared about was putting poor folks in middle income homes, even at the risk of not being paid back, cause that's the "fair thing to do."

Listen closely to those DEMOCRATS blowing smoke. Stop playing the blame game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
That's even scarier than Palin as President!

I don't know if anything is scarier than that woman! She's a botox injected, drugged out, psychotic freak, who is so far removed from reality it's absurd.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Dude. He's trying to dig this country out of this mess started by the pseudo-conservatives. Last time we had a balanced budget? Under actual-conservative President Clinton.

Of course, the liberal pass for allowing an idiot like Obama to spend us into oblivion, print so much money that hyperinflation will kick in. The last time we had such a clown in the White House, we had a eroded military, weakened foreign policy, high unemployment, and outrageous interest rate...all under a liberal-Jimmy Carter. We had to have Carter to get a Reagan, and we have to have an Obama to get someone who can turn the country around. We don't need another closet liberal-spending neo-con like Bush. If you poll Americans biggest concerns, they're concerned about the economy/unemployment followed by deficit spending. This administration is hell bent on passing another disastrous pork filled bill that won't do anything to lower costs for health care.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:06 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
Congress was approached in 2004 about adding more oversight to Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac but Mr. Barney Frank and other African American representatives complained that it would discourage home buying, and all those greedy bastards cared about was putting poor folks in middle income homes, even at the risk of not being paid back, cause that's the "fair thing to do."

Barney Frank is not African American and the Republicans controlled Congress in 2004.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
User avatar
OA412
Crew
Posts: 3733
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:14 pm



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):
Whats free next? Cars? Houses?

What a bizarrely convoluted argument. The right to life is a basic human right and is what the entire health care debate is trying to address. You're cheapening the argument by making this statement.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 28):
  that is the most absurd thing I've read in quite some time...the U.S. government taking control of something and reining in spending, saving trillions  

To reiterate what others have stated repeatedly in this thread, this plan will result in trillions of savings for business who will no longer have to shoulder the responsibility of paying for employee health care. Whether or not you choose to accept this fact is up to you.

Continue to blame the government all you wish but a smaller federal government is not the answer. Katrina is a prime example of the immense danger involved with weakening the power of the federal government.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Dude. He's trying to dig this country out of this mess started by the pseudo-conservatives.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Comorin (Reply 26):
N1120A , Texan, great posts as usual.

Second that.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:30 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):

Lets rewind a second. Do you believe that businesses should turn a profit? Do you call yourself a capitalist?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TLG
Posts: 364
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:41 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:12 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Are you serious? Do you not understand what the massive savings would be if business stopped paying directly for health care?

I don't understand where the savings would come from. If the government took over health care, taxes would have to be raised, or a new tax levied, to pay for it. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing that any potential savings in health care costs to a business would end up going back out in taxes. The money to fund health care has to come from somewhere, whether private, corporate, or government.

-TLG
 
seb146
Posts: 13773
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:21 am



Quoting TLG (Reply 35):
taxes would have to be raised, or a new tax levied, to pay for it. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing that any potential savings in health care costs to a business would end up going back out in taxes.

Remember back in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s when we had millionares and large corporations that made profits but paid high taxes? What is wrong with going back to that system? What is wrong with going back to a system that truly puts American workers and American industry first? Take, for example, Tri-Met. They wanted a self-propelled commuter train. One important stipulation: It had to be built in the United States. They ended up with a piece but it was built in Colorado. Instead of outsourcing, which is so popular these days with wind turbines and solar panals and call centers, we could truly put America first. Even without massive tax hikes, that alone would boost tax revenue.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19619
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:37 am



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):

checkmark Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege." Just because we are the wealthiest country in the world, doesn't mean we should have to have a bureaucratically (see incompetent) government run universal health care system

Let's talk about incompetent bureacracy. I recently left my job and went to COBRA. Filled out the forms, sent in the payments, and then BC continued to cover me.

Two months later, as I'm filling one of my prescriptions after my Achilles tendon operation, I am notified that I'm terminated. I find out that this is because the COBRA administrators never got my registration. It's now after the 60 day window. I call back my employer, explain the situation, they go to bat for me, and the COBRA administration agrees to take my payment and retroactively cover me. I send a new payment and form in. A week goes by and I hear nothing. Another week goes by and I call. My payment has not yet been received. I send yet ANOTHER check. Two days later, the first one is processed. I am reassured that BC will cover me within 3 business days.

A week later, I am not covered. I call up the COBRA administrators who say that they have sent the information to BC. BC says they never got it. Both sides keep passing the buck. I call my old employer's benefits office. I turns out that the information somehow got lost in the system.

Today, four months after I first tried to apply for COBRA coverage, my insurance kicked in. Meanwhile, the hospital is after me for over $10K of money that my insurance company denied because I "wasn't a member." All of my prior authorizations are gone and I have to get the doctors to re-submit claims.

Now, that's private insurance. Please explain to me how the bureaucracy would get worse? I don't think it can get worse than a private system. At the very least, with a single-payer system, the one thing they can't tell you is that you aren't covered.

Oh, and as far as healthcare not being a right, then the next time I have an uninsured patient come into the ER, should I just let him die? If I do, I'm a criminal because, under the law, all patients have the right to receive medical care regardless of their ability to pay. So apparently it is a right. But the cost of covering the uninsured is passed off to the hospitals. And so they have to inflate their billing of covered patients to recoup their losses.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:44 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 33):
Whether or not you choose to accept this fact is up to you.

Continue to blame the government all you wish but a smaller federal government is not the answer. Katrina is a prime example of the immense danger involved with weakening the power of the federal government.

First off, since when is it the Federal Governments job to respond to hurricane damage? Should I call the Feds when my house gets blown away with a tornado? The city of New Orleans did nothing to prevent those levees from failing, and that place has had nothing but Democratic leadership for a long time. Don't pen New Orleans unpreparedness on Republicans or the Federal Government. Are you suggesting we have a giant nanny state so the big brother government can take care of all our problems?? Psshh please. Secondly, what are you talking about?? Where is the savings going to come from?? Stop drinking the Obama koolaid for a few minutes and run the numbers:

"On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer."

"In addition to reducing future Medicare funding by an estimated $500 billion, the bill fundamentally changes how Medicare pays doctors and hospitals, permitting the government to dictate treatment decisions."

How will this help anyone? Our economy is consumer spending driven, and having to pay this much in extra taxes, etc. will have a detrimental effect to the economy.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...1055918380.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Do you believe that businesses should turn a profit? Do you call yourself a capitalist?

Running my own business, I sure do. And to cover the mandatory costs of health care for my employees, I will have to lay off at least 3 of the 6 that work for me.

"Sec. 412 (p. 272) says that employers must provide a "qualified plan" for their employees and pay 72.5% of the cost, and a smaller share of family coverage, or incur an 8% payroll tax. Small businesses, with payrolls from $500,000 to $750,000, are fined less."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...1055918380.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Tell me how that will help the economy. And don't tell me that health care will become more affordable for the average consumer, therefore he/she can purchase their own. Read the link above for that. This will be a job killer thanks to the outrageous costs via raised taxes on ALL TAX PAYING CITIZENS!
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:06 am



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 38):

Running my own business, I sure do.

Do you also believe in capitalism?

Quoting TLG (Reply 35):

I don't understand where the savings would come from. If the government took over health care, taxes would have to be raised, or a new tax levied, to pay for it. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing that any potential savings in health care costs to a business would end up going back out in taxes

That isn't how it would work. Without a profit motive, the costs would drop precipitously. So would economies of scale aid things.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:15 am



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
I wonder how magnificent their health care is???

A life expectancy a little less than a year lower than the US, and an infant mortality rate that's lower than the US. While that hardly paints a complete picture, Cuban health care is obviously not in dire straits.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 8461
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:13 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Oh, and as far as healthcare not being a right, then the next time I have an uninsured patient come into the ER, should I just let him die? If I do, I'm a criminal because, under the law, all patients have the right to receive medical care regardless of their ability to pay. So apparently it is a right. But the cost of covering the uninsured is passed off to the hospitals. And so they have to inflate their billing of covered patients to recoup their losses.

Good one, the system is so screwed up now it is ridiculous. I bow once again to your expertize in these matters. We do have some hysterical experts on here. I wonder where their expertize comes from. I hope to hell it is not Rush and Sean, and the rest of the hysterical crowd, yelling the Sky is falling, the sky is falling, Oh My!
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9023
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:56 am



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
but Mr. Barney Frank and other African American representatives

Barney is gay, not black.

But he is a liberal so he might not mind being called black.  Smile

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
They've failed to run Medicare and SS, and dug us into trillions in debt and growing quickly under Obama

My Medicare and SS is working as well as it did for my father. My SS is working as well as it did for my grandfather, who died 60 years ago.

If there is a need for increasing the taxes to keep both programs going then let's either increase them, or come out with a "unfortunate, but necessary premium increase" like insurance companies do.

Conservatives could probably go with the "premium increase".

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
A hell of a lot less than the money they're talking about spending and the money I'll have to pay my employees under their garbage plan.

So what is the annual premium for each employee in 2009 and 2010? Going up any? How about deductibles and co-pays?

Big companies will learn to leverage their costs to improve profitability and small companies may be very happy indeed. As long as they are paying for a decent insurance policy for their employees.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
Why do people perpetuate this lie??

It's simple, Bush & Cheney built a house of cards that collapsed before they left office. Actually came close to something far worse than a "Great Recession"

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
Of course, the liberal pass for allowing an idiot like Obama to spend us into oblivion, print so much money that hyperinflation will kick in.

Obama isn't spending enough to be the tip of Bush iceberg spending iceberg.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
The last time we had such a clown in the White House, we had a eroded military, weakened foreign policy, high unemployment, and outrageous interest rate...all under a liberal-Jimmy Carter.

The last time we had a clown in the White House he eroded the military with an unnecessary war in Iraq, wore down the boots on the ground with too many deployments and too little time in between to recover, weakened our foreign policy by letting everyone else "know that we were the deciders and knew more than they did", set up tax cuts that ensured the wealthy grew significantly richer while leaving the average taxpayer with a tax cut that was a fraction of the increases in their medical insurance, went "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" to the financial sector. Left us with the Great Recession and high unemployment.

But interest rates were lowered.

Wow.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 33):
Katrina is a prime example of the immense danger involved with weakening the power of the federal government.

It's a classic example of how bad a job the previous Administration did.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Meanwhile, the hospital is after me for over $10K of money that my insurance company denied because I "wasn't a member."

Know that situation. After a surgery. Both the insurance company and hospital said they spent hours on "my case". I kept waiting for them to get their act together and they finally sent me to a collection. I protested the charges and in my protest demanded various documents covering all the meetings they had held - wanted it for my lawyer.

For some reason I have never received any communication from them since the letter was faxed. Maybe they actually worked it out together like they should have 18 to 24 month before.

Personally I think in your situation I would get a friend who was a lawyer to write to everyone involved and motivate them to resolve the issues without bothering you anymore.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Now, that's private insurance. Please explain to me how the bureaucracy would get worse?

It can't.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
But the cost of covering the uninsured is passed off to the hospitals. And so they have to inflate their billing of covered patients to recoup their losses.

I call it a "surcharge" or "hidden socialized medicine tax", but conservatives accept it as a normal aspect of their liberty freedom. They pay it monthly in one form or another and will fight to the death to continue paying it.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
One of the biggest reasons American business has trouble competing, despite our allegedly much more business-friendly laws than other industrialized nations, is the massive burden businesses shoulder in health and retirement costs.

Of course the corporate income tax rate wouldn't have anything to do with it either right?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/22917.html

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
People try and focus on taxes, but money paid is money paid, regardless of where it goes.

Money to government is usually money wasted.

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
The government's job is "to promote the general welfare."

Exactly where does it say that "welfare" has anything to do with healthcare? Typical liberal injection of meaning. BTW it says "promote the general welfare" not "pay for the general welfare".

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
That ain't capitalism folks.

What you're pushing is pure socialism.

Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
As a final thought, think of how much money could be saved by allowing people to receive preventative health care instead of having people wait until they need emergency care before going to the hospital. That, too, would reduce health care costs dramatically.

The CBO totally disagrees with you.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
So government dollars shouldn't worry about paying out big dollars for the H1N1 virus?

Correct. A look at how well they've handled getting H1N1 vaccinations made available on the schedule they announced should pretty much say it all.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
Maybe we can drop Medicare so the non-rich elderly can die faster.

At least private insurance prices would fall since they wouldn't have to make up the 30% the government doesn't pay. Less people would be denied as well since it has become public knowledge that the largest denier of medical insurance claims is none other than Medicare.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
It now called the Great Recession - the parting gift of a conservative Republican administration.

Exacerbated by the new democratic administration.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Are you serious? Do you not understand what the massive savings would be if business stopped paying directly for health care?

So just where is all this money going to come from? How about if you look at Denmark's personal income tax rate for an answer.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Dude. He's trying to dig this country out of this mess started by the pseudo-conservatives. Last time we had a balanced budget? Under actual-conservative President Clinton.

   The budget was never balanced under Clinton or any other President since Johnson. For the umpteenth time as long as SS payments are included in the general fund and IOU's issued to the SS administration in return, no budget is balanced.

[Edited 2009-11-06 22:09:34]
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19619
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:05 am



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):

rotfl You got me there...I wonder how magnificent their health care is???

Cuba's healthcare is pretty damned good, actually. At least, if what I hear from my physician colleagues who actually did exchange rotations there. The facilities are meager, the supplies are poor (mostly because of the U.S. embargo), but the physicians are excellent and the patients get good care.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
san747
Posts: 4344
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:10 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 43):

The budget was never balanced under Clinton or any other President since Johnson. For the umpteenth time as long as SS payments are included in the general fund and IOU's issued to the SS administration in return, no budget is balanced.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...dministration_was_the_federal.html

Note that whether you do or do not count SS payouts, there was still a surplus. No one is saying it was a huge one, but the state of the budget at the end of the Clinton administration was hundreds of billions of dollars better than during the Bush years.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:17 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 45):
Note that whether you do or do not count SS payouts, there was still a surplus.

That article is incorrect. What they fail to mention is if you took away the SS iou's the government would have then had to borrow the money thruough the issuance of bonds, securities, or outright borrowing from commercial lenders. When you borrow the money you incur interest payments. So just saying if you took away the SS payments it wouldn't have mattered is a simplification of a complex problem. A truly balanced budget would not include any iou's to SS and not having to borrow money to make up the difference either. Hence the budget was never truly balanced.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:47 pm



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
What we really need is free universal health care. But let's face it. Universal health care by itself will not pass through Congress. To successfully sell universal health care, you need more in the bill and you need a better marketing program. What you need is a comprehensive package.

Single Payer works but its hard to convince people to take a tax hike that will end up saving them in the long term, which is what the intention of a system like this is.

It is by no means a perfect system however the issues are far simpler to manage but I'll tell you that here in Canada our system is underfunded mainly because we are like everyone else and do not want to accept a tax hike to pay for what will be unavoidable increasing costs in the next few years with all the baby boomers retiring. Also yes there is some issues with wait times but it is for non-essential procedures and not life-threatening ones. However would I trade this system for a for profit health insurance system like the US absolutely not!

The biggest issue with the US health care system is not who runs it because a lot of the European systems run in a similar manner with private insurance companies providing the care mixed in with some government funding here and there. The difference is that in all other industrialized nations with the exception of the US profiting off health care is illegal.

This is bad because when you are out to make money there is no incentive to get people healthy. This is because for an insurance or pharmaceutical company they make more when people have conditions such as obesity that can allow higher premiums to be charged as well as it more profitable to put that person on medication than to tell them to join a gym or see a nutritionist. Whereas if the profit motive is removed then it is the interest for the healthcare system to get people healthy which costs less.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Ken777
Posts: 9023
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:10 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
Exactly where does it say that "welfare" has anything to do with healthcare?

Looking at the advancement of medical knowledge at the time I doubt the issue ever entered the minds of our Founding Fathers. Sort of like they failed to address NASA and raising taxes to go to the moon.  eyepopping 

My opinion can be traced back to my days in elementary school. The Polio Vaccine had not been developed at that time and Polio was spreading. A girl in my 5th grade class caught it (fortunately it just impacted her hand) and all of our parents went to the Public Health Department to get a couple bottles of some rather thick stuff (gamma globulin?) that our pediatricians stuck in our bums. I got a 16.2 cc shot - can still remember that.

And then there were the iron lungs - I can really remember them. Google "iron lung" or just go to http://colgurchemistry.com/Science9/Biology/iron%20lung%201.jpg. Might have to enlarge the picture. This is where health care and the general welfare clearly are one and the same.

Today the relationship is not quite as easy to see - unless you happen to be one of the less fortunate.

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
BTW it says "promote the general welfare" not "pay for the general welfare".

If promotion has a financial cost then payment is a responsibility. If it requires the draft then there is a responsibility to serve.

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
A look at how well they've handled getting H1N1 vaccinations made available on the schedule they announced should pretty much say it all.

We're talking about a vaccine that is produced by the private sector - maybe their failure to deliver more and faster should be the focus of your comments. But if the private sector established their production infrastructure to maximize profits then you might find the delivery rte we are seeing as very acceptable.

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
At least private insurance prices would fall since they wouldn't have to make up the 30% the government doesn't pay

Insurance prices fall? Is that another Dick Cheney joke?

The only time you'll see insurance prices fall is when they have some competition from public options.

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
Exacerbated by the new democratic administration.

I guess that conservatives will call any effort to clean up the mess created by the previous administration as "making things worse".

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
How about if you look at Denmark's personal income tax rate for an answer.

Now throw in OUR state, county, city taxes to get a clearer picture and a better balance. Better yet, add in [the individual cost of health care (be sure to shift employer contributions over to the individual for the comparison) and now tell me what the answer. A family of 4 with a $1,000 a month health insurance bill and a $60,000 gross income would be ahead if they had a tax rate 20% higher, no deductibles, and small co-pays under a public option.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:09 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
Looking at the advancement of medical knowledge at the time I doubt the issue ever entered the minds of our Founding Fathers.

I doubt medical needs entered their minds at all since they would have considered that a personal responsibility, not a right that should be gauranteed by the government.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
If promotion has a financial cost then payment is a responsibility. If

Then the federal government is already guilty of shirking that duty as they are tranfering more medicaid costs to the States to make this idiotic bill look finanically acceptable.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
We're talking about a vaccine that is produced by the private sector - maybe their failure to deliver more and faster should be the focus of your comments.

Of course we wouldn't want to accuse the new administration of being inept at handling anything now would we?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
The only time you'll see insurance prices fall is when they have some competition from public options.

Competition from the government? Is that an Obama or Pelosi joke? At least you have the good sense to leave "fair competition" off.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
I guess that conservatives will call any effort to clean up the mess created by the previous administration as "making things worse".

As long as the administrations efforts are making things definitively worse then the answer would be yes. How many jobs did they save today?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
Now throw in OUR state, county, city taxes to get a clearer picture and a better balance.

I live in Texas. We don't have a State income tax, nor, since I live in a township do I have any city tax. I pay property tax to the country government.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
A family of 4 with a $1,000 a month health insurance bill and a $60,000 gross income would be ahead if they had a tax rate 20% higher, no deductibles, and small co-pays under a public option.

Not in Texas and I highly doubt anywhere else as well. Since so many of your fiugures have been busted how about a link proving that.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Gemuser, johnboy, kngkyle and 34 guests