na
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Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:40 pm

Just out on auto-motor-und-sport.de:

Mercedes pulls put of Mclaren and buys the majority (75,1%) of Brawn GP. The new Team will be named Mercedes GP, drivers Button and Rosberg, cars will be silver.
McLaren will get free engines for the next two years and until then the cars will retain the wellknown beautiful silver-red-black look.

With Rosberg in the team I see Button having a hard time next year. Rosberg is one of the drivers with champion ability.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:18 pm



Quoting NA (Thread starter):
Mercedes pulls put of Mclaren

This is overreaching. WSJ has an article which says that the state of the McLaren relationship is indeterminate as of yet.

Quote:
Aabar's move makes it the third, high-profile Arab investor in Formula One. Abu Dhabi investment firm Mubadala Development Co. owns a 5% stake in Ferrari, while Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Co., which is wholly owned by the government of Bahrain, holds a 30% stake in McLaren Group, which is also 40%-owned by Daimler.

A spokesman for McLaren wasn't immediately available for comment on what Daimler's involvement with Brawn will mean for the team.

Aabar, Daimler to Buy Majority Stake in Brawn GP
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na
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
This is overreaching. WSJ has an article which says that the state of the McLaren relationship is indeterminate as of yet.

The site I quoted is next door to Mercedes and while "our" leading car magazine its widely known in Germany as a Mercedes-minded publication.

Mercedes takes 45,1 %, Mercedes Abu Dhabi stake owner Aabar 30 % of Brawn. Through this deal Mercedes will get most of the teams profits, something that didnt work with McLaren. Norbert Haug will become the boss of Ross Brawn in a way, although the genius from Britain will remain the team´s boss. With Rosberg for the first time since Mercedes came back in 1994 a German will be drivng a Silver Arrow.

McLaren-Mercedes will keep its name, but loose Mobil as sponsor (which leaves in the same direction as Mercedes), 30 million Mercedes development money a year, and 50% of the drivers payments which Stuttgart payed so far. Because Ron Dennis/McLaren had made serious mistakes in the last years (not so much in sport, but legally) Mercedes could walk out of McLaren earlier than the contract said (which would have meant at the end of 2011). For how much money Mercedes sold their stake in McLaren is unknown. Now McLaren builds a streetcar which somehow is a competitor to Mercedes new SLS, which is also not what the car manufacturer likes too much. McLaren will get engines for free for 2010 and 2011 and has the right to purchase until 2015.

All in all this strong commitment of the Star from Stuttgart is a good sign for F1 after all the gloom of this year´s largely horrible season.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:57 pm

Not unexpected. It's been rumoured for some time that Mercedes-Benz wanted to increase its participation in Brawn and scale its part in McLaren down.

To me, the biggest advantage isn't that they finally get a German driver to drive a Silberpfeil, but mostly that they have now a genious working for them with Ross Brawn.
 
aerobalance
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:08 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
genious working for them with Ross Brawn

In what way do you consider Brawn a genius?
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t1210s
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:14 pm



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 4):
In what way do you consider Brawn a genius?

8 x Drivers World Championships including five back to back
8 x Constructor World Championships including six back to back
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:16 pm



Quoting T1210s (Reply 5):
8 x Drivers World Championships including five back to back
8 x Constructor World Championships including six back to back

What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
N1120A
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:20 pm

Doesn't Daimler-Benz (Karl Benz should not be screwed out of his legacy) own a controlling interest in McLaren? If so, this deal seems odd. I wonder if papaya orange is in the cards for McLaren?
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Stealthz
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:20 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 2):
All in all this strong commitment of the Star from Stuttgart is a good sign for F1 after all the gloom of this year´s largely horrible season.

Not sure I agree there, despite all the achievements of Daimler-Benz the record of auto manufacturers as F1 team owners is not a stellar one, certainly not in recent decades.
I fear (and for Brawn's sake I hope I am wrong) that Mercedes ownership might bring with it the sort of committee based decision making and inertia that were the most culpable failings of Honda & Toyota as team owners.

Having said all that and understanding how our German friends feel this is big news, it is really just part of the sports evolution, this thread should ideally be continued here......
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GrahamHill
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:21 pm

Post edited as StealthZ was quicker than me  Smile

[Edited 2009-11-16 11:22:56]
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t1210s
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:23 pm

His career in motorsport began in 1976 when he joined March Engineering in the town of Bicester as a milling machine operator. Soon afterwards he joined their Formula 3 racing team as a mechanic. Brawn was hired by Sir Frank Williams in 1978 as a machinist for the newly formed Williams team. He quickly moved up through the ranks, working in the R&D department and as an aerodynamicist in the team's wind tunnel.

After brief stints with the now-defunct Haas Lola and Arrows F1 teams Brawn's efforts caught the attention of Jaguar, which hired him in 1989. He began work in their sports car racing division, bringing as much F1 technological experience as he could, and succeeded in designing the Jaguar XJR-14 cars which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship.


Later in 1991 Brawn returned to F1 as technical director of the Benetton team, helping it win back-to-back World Drivers' Championships in 1994 and 1995 with Michael Schumacher, and to take the World Constructors' Championship in 1995. Brawn was credited by much of the specialist press with being an important part of these championships, particularly in terms of devising race strategy.



Ross Brawn followed Schumacher to the Ferrari F1 team in late 1996, at the end of Schumacher's first year with the team. Again he was renowned for his race strategies as the team began to challenge for the championship from 1997, despite the superiority of the Williams cars that year and the McLarens from 1998 onwards. After these "rebuilding" years, he (as Ferrari technical director) helped Ferrari regain glory when the team won the Constructors' Championship in 1999, the first of six consecutive titles. The Brawn-guided Scuderia also powered Schumacher to five consecutive drivers' titles, from 2000 to 2004. Brawn's contributions to this unprecedented string of titles has led many to label him as a vital member of the Ferrari "dream team" along with Schumacher, team principal Jean Todt and chief designer Rory Byrne. In 2005 Ferrari never quite found form, and had to relinquish the title to Renault, and Schumacher passed the crown to Fernando Alonso. In 2006 Ferrari had a poor start to the season, but clearly had the fastest car by the end of that season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Brawn
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na
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:57 pm



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 8):
Having said all that and understanding how our German friends feel this is big news, it is really just part of the sports evolution, this thread should ideally be continued here......

I´m more of a Ferrari fan than Mercedes I must say, but while its part of the Sports evolution its not just big news for German F1 fans. This is about a major deal involving this years champions, last years champions, Europe´s most prestigious mass car producer, F1s best tactician (Brawn) and some of the best drivers. It cant get bigger in F1 besides Ferrari doing something spectacular.
 
bill142
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:46 pm



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.

He designed the cars that won those championships. He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Doesn't Daimler-Benz (Karl Benz should not be screwed out of his legacy) own a controlling interest in McLaren? If so, this deal seems odd. I wonder if papaya orange is in the cards for McLaren?

The stake in McLaren is being sold back to the team. They will continue in the silver livery for 2010 at least. From 2011 it's possible to see the livery based around the Vodafone brand.
 
na
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):
From 2011 it's possible to see the livery based around the Vodafone brand.

Which would mean a red car, some sort of a British Ferrari.
Could be worse.
 
sudden
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:38 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):
Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.


He designed the cars that won those championships. He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

Brawn is also known for his pit stop strategies. More then 1 race has been won because of the right decision taken from the pit wall by Brawn himself. His years at Ferrari comes to mind.
So yes, he sure is a genius who knows what he's doing.

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LTU932
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:46 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 13):
Which would mean a red car, some sort of a British Ferrari.

They could do it like in the times Marlboro (Philip Morris) sponsored them, creamish-white and red.
 
richm
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:25 am

This is interesting news!

The official press release for this can also be read on Brawn GP's website.

Here's the link:
http://www.brawngp.com/readstory.asp?bgp=j%C1%AA%C0rZ%7Cg

The page also shows a picture of a new car. It looks very McClaren like imo, but it still looks great!

Cheers

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aerobalance
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:08 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):
He designed the cars that won those championships. He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

Here I was thinking that Rory Byrne designed the Championship winning Benetton's and Ferrari's at the time Ross Brawn was with those teams...Jorg Zander and Loic Bigois were designers of the Brawn GP entrant for 2009 with Zander being the Chief Designer.

I believe Brawn is a good manager of resources...
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waterpolodan
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:13 am



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):

What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.

To discount his role in the championships his teams have won is doing him a disservice. He may not have been the driver or the chief designer of all of the cars involved, but he certainly was a huge factor in that success. As others mentioned, he masterminded much of the Schumacher pit strategy that won many races that would otherwise have been lost at both Benetton and Ferrari, he was the driving force behind getting many people with diverse talents to gel into a cohesive group that produced the most dominant performance in F1 history in the 2000-2004 period with the Scuderia, and he had the foresight to make a very shrewd business decision in purchasing the basically defunct Honda program, turning it into a championship team, and selling most of his ownership to Mercedes. He must have gotten an absolutely astronomical return on his investment in the BGP affair, considering where they started and where they are now. On a personal level, he is generally regarded as one of the smartest men in pitlane. My dad ran into him in a lounge at Heathrow a couple years ago, they got to talking and it immediately became clear to my dad that Ross has an intuitive knack for engineering that extends well beyond cars. My dad works for a high end speaker manufacturer, and Ross discussed the intricacies of the engineering that goes into such devices as if he were involved in the business himself, and he had the same knowledge and enthusiasm about America's Cup yachts, which my dad is a big fan of. Pretty much a genius no matter how you slice it, not sure what you'd call him?

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 17):


I believe Brawn is a good manager of resources...

That's an understatement.
 
bill142
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:10 am



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 17):
Here I was thinking that Rory Byrne designed the Championship winning Benetton's and Ferrari's at the time Ross Brawn was with those teams...Jorg Zander and Loic Bigois were designers of the Brawn GP entrant for 2009 with Zander being the Chief Designer.

Geez.. My posts are about as factually correct as an aviation journalists articles.
 
sudden
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:26 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 19):
Geez.. My posts are about as factually correct as an aviation journalists articles.

 rotfl 
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A333TS
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:03 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):



Quote:
He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

He may have won the championship with Brawn GP, but that was because the car was in the development for about 6-8 months before all other teams on the grid. All the teams were still developing 2008 models while Brawn was was spending millions of Honda's money on 2009 model. He did win 2009 championship and we can't take that away from him but you can see how much the car was falling behind when the rest of the field caught up with the development by the European Races.

Also, the illegal diffuser that he put on the car sure helped him a lot.

He is a smart guy but we will see the difference in his skills when he does not have almost unlimited resources of Ferrari and Honda to develop a car. Also, next year's car will not be in development for almost a year, unlike last year's car .


A333TS
 
waterpolodan
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:20 pm



Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):


Also, the illegal diffuser that he put on the car sure helped him a lot.

Illegal, eh? Strange that the FIA and race scrutineers never once ruled that it was illegal, and that Williams and Toyota both had the same design from the first race on and yet never won a race... It was a loophole that only 3 teams had the foresight to exploit. Call it against the spirit of the regulations, but I say exploiting loopholes for performance advantage is exactly what the spirit of F1 is. By mid season every other car on the grid was running the same design and yet BGP were still consistently in the hunt for wins. Their advantage was down to much more than just the diffuser.

Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):
He may have won the championship with Brawn GP, but that was because the car was in the development for about 6-8 months before all other teams on the grid. All the teams were still developing 2008 models while Brawn was was spending millions of Honda's money on 2009 model. He did win 2009 championship and we can't take that away from him but you can see how much the car was falling behind when the rest of the field caught up with the development by the European Races.

Brawn/Honda are not the only team to have ever abandoned development during a season to focus on a future car, Ferrari did it this year for instance with the F60. They are however the only team to do this and turn up the following year with a dominant design and win the championship that I can think of. It's not like it was some unfair tactic employed by Brawn that takes something away from his victories, every other team has the same option and all of the teams were indeed working on their 2009 cars starting as early as the Honda/Brawn car, just not with as many engineers and wind tunnel/CAD time as the BGP car perhaps. When you say that the car fell behind, it did get caught by Red Bull and Mclaren on a good weekend towards the season's end, but it still was qualifying consistently in the top 5 and finishing on the podium. Maybe that isn't a 1-2, but I think the Brawn team did an excellent job maintaining their performance, and for all we know they may have pushed more of their manpower towards developing the 2010 car once they had achieved a dominant points lead early in the season so next year's Mercedes F1 machine will be even stronger. You seem quick to undersell Brawn's achievements, I can't understand why because the man has always been a gentleman, a great team leader, and a credit to the sport who almost singlehandedly saved the honda operation from complete withdrawal and turned the F1 pecking order on its head. I'm as big a Ferrari nut as you'll find, but I know when to give credit where it is due.
 
bill142
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:34 pm



Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):
Also, the illegal diffuser that he put on the car sure helped him a lot.

Yes, the same illegal diffuser that every team was running by the end of the season. I wonder how 10 teams could get away without the FIA knowing?
 
sudden
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:54 pm



Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):
Reply 21

Oh my, apart from what Bill142 and Waterpolodan already told you, you should really try to check up on some facts before posting.
It looks more like you have something against Brawn GP as a team, or Ross Brawn himself. Either way, your lack of knowledge is really embarrasing.

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A333TS
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:59 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 23):



Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 22):

Toyota and Williams did not have the same diffuser, similar but not the same. Ferrari had to redesign the rear end of the chassis in order to make a diffuser work.

Toyota and Williams did not have the horsepower to compete with the Mercedes power to win the races. Williams also helped Toyota (provided some design information) in return for the engine supply, there is my reason why Toyota and Williams had similar diffusers. I have no issues of thinking outside the box and that is exactly what Brawn did on his car but when 7 other teams have issues with it something must be wrong. My guess (it only a guess) Toyota would not have had the diffuser if it wasn't for Williams design.

As with regards to FIA ruling on legality of the diffuser used by Brawn, Williams and Toyota, FIA has made some bad calls in the past, and in my books that is one of them.(Renault incident this year)

As to the credit, Ross Brawn deserves a credit for for building a winning car and wining the championship and I hope he can do this next year, but he is not as good as people make him to be.


A333TS
 
sudden
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:15 pm



Quoting A333TS (Reply 25):
but he is not as good as people make him to be.

Indeed, cause he's better!
Have you not read above what other members have posted? Please do check Brawns background to see what he has achived in F1, and you will see that he has far more titles with his name on it then anyone else probably will ever get.

Quoting A333TS (Reply 25):
As with regards to FIA ruling on legality of the diffuser used by Brawn, Williams and Toyota, FIA has made some bad calls in the past, and in my books that is one of them

FIA had nothing to do with it! Rule about diffuser was blurry, and Brawn made use of it. Simple as that. FIA knew that they could not do anything about it even though other teams handed in complaints against BGP for using the DDD. So how you can turn that against FIA looks a bit odd.
The Renault deal is a totally different story all together, and should not even be compared to the DDD story.

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waterpolodan
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:28 pm



Quoting A333TS (Reply 25):
I have no issues of thinking outside the box and that is exactly what Brawn did on his car but when 7 other teams have issues with it something must be wrong.

No, it must be wrong if and only if the FIA declares it illegal, which never happened. Any time one team or a couple teams make a step forward with an innovation that exploits some ambiguity in the rules, every other team that didn't think of the innovation first complains about it to the FIA. Does that make it wrong? No, it happens all the time. Ross Brawn approached the FIA before the season and double checked the dimensions and area defined by the rules as to what could be used in the diffuser, and when he presented his "double" diffuser to them, they saw nothing technically illegal about it. Of course the other teams whined, but once it became clear that he had legally exploited the rules they all followed suit. This sort of thing happens all the time, sometimes the loophole is closed like the fan on the Brabham in '78 or the double brake system on the Mclaren in '98, and other times it is allowed and subsequently adopted by all other teams like this diffuser. Why you vilify Brawn in this matter which only speaks to his genius and ability to innovate is very confusing, he did nothing wrong other than put some much better funded and more experienced teams in the uncomfortable position of being beaten badly.

Quoting A333TS (Reply 25):
but he is not as good as people make him to be.

Really? Might I ask... who is better? If you don't think he's the best team boss in F1, I'd like to see who you might consider as his superior? If he wasn't the best, he wouldn't have the championships, simple as that. He didn't just luck into his jobs with Benetton, Ferrari, Brawn, and now Mercedes, you know...
 
A333TS
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:53 pm

I was looking at the achievement with Brawn GP and not the other achievements that both of you guys mentioned (sorry I was not clear on that, not good on explaining everything in writing).

Brawn GP achievement last season should also be accredited to Honda. What I was trying to say that if he would not have won if he had to start a team from scratch, not $1 buyout from Honda, and Mercedes power.

A333TS
 
sudden
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:21 pm



Quoting A333TS (Reply 28):
Brawn GP achievement last season should also be accredited to Honda

In regards to the whole development of the 2009 car, Brawn was very specific about including everyone who had taken part of it. Especially the staff who had to leave after he had to reduce the work force. During interviews after the race in Brazil he said all this. So he sure didn't take all the credit for the WDC/WCC title.

Quoting A333TS (Reply 28):
he would not have won if he had to start a team from scratch

If I may, this is not a valid comparison.
You can be sure that Honda looked really stupid after what Brawn achived this year. F1 is far more then just having a fast car. Namely strategy, which Brawn masters better then anyone else on the grid.

If Brawn would have set up a new team from scratch, I would bet that he with his background would still have got a very competitive package with a big engine supplier backing him up cause Brawn is a known for knowing his $hit.
This is basically what is happening now with Mercedes buying BGP.

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A333TS
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 29):
You can be sure that Honda looked really stupid after what Brawn achived this year.

I don't know about that, I think having a Mercedes engine helped. But we will never know, if Honda would have stayed they may have not won the championship.

A333TS
 
bill142
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:22 am



Quoting A333TS (Reply 28):
Brawn GP achievement last season should also be accredited to Honda. What I was trying to say that if he would not have won if he had to start a team from scratch, not $1 buyout from Honda, and Mercedes power.

It all stems from a programs and changes Ross Brawn started when he became team principal of Honda. So no matter how you look at it, the achievements of Bronda team, for want of a better word, can be traced back to Ross Brawn.
 
na
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RE: Big F1 News: Mercedes GP

Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:53 am



Quoting A333TS (Reply 30):
if Honda would have stayed they may have not won the championship.

Surely not. Brawn would mosr likely also have been one of the top teams in 2009, but it was the Mercedes engine together with Brawns superior aerodynamics that was decicive this year. Look at McLaren, after they sorted out the chassis bugs they were as quick as the Brawns - because they had the best engine.

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