na
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Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:57 pm

I understand Russians (and not only them) get angry about this case:

A German teacher, speeding through Moscow with double the allowed speed, killed two students with his Porsche Cayenne. Because of a diplomatic status he leaves Russia unmolested and is sentenced in Germany. Fine: 5000,- Euros. Plus one year on probation.

5000 Euros for the death of 2 young men. How much is 5000 Euros for a Cayenne driver? Like 500 for an average man I´d say.
What does this say? Behave well for some time, then you can kill more with your Porsche, it´ll only cost you 2500 per "piece".
At least he should serve this year in prison immiadetely, a year on probation is simply ridiculous.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:17 pm

You forget that this is the standard sentence in Germany for causing an accidental death in a car accident. He was not drunk, if he had been drunken, the sentence would have been higher and he would have eventually have to spend a few months in jail The Russians wanted to lock him away for 15 years which is what you usualy get for intential murder here, in far better "living conditions".
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DYflyer
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:27 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
You forget that this is the standard sentence in Germany for causing an accidental death in a car accident.

I think in most countries it is not considered "accidental" when you drive at twice the speed-limit.
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PanHAM
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:49 pm



Quoting DYflyer (Reply 2):
think in most countries it is not considered "accidental" when you drive at twice the speed-limit.

Possible, but we have the information from hear-say. I think we both don't know what the actual situation was and the court will certainly have had the details available on which the sentence was based.

The fact that he drove a Porsche cayenne must not mean that he is rich. Diplomats get the cars tax free, they have something like double pay or more (over what they make at home) so a Cayenne is within reach . Fines are usually on per day rates and they are calculated not on what he used to get in Russia but what he gets paid now.,
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na
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:31 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):


Quoting DYflyer (Reply 2):
think in most countries it is not considered "accidental" when you drive at twice the speed-limit.

Possible, but we have the information from hear-say. I think we both don't know what the actual situation was and the court will certainly have had the details available on which the sentence was based.

I´m sure we will know more soon. "Der Spiegel" and others will likely pick up that story.

This man drove 50 km/h above the city speed limit - thats motorway-speed, and even if nothing happens, you´ll loose your driving license for it. A very grave mistake even without accident. Unless those two students ran onto the road drunken and in darkness this sentence is a joke under all circumstances. Of cause the 15 years he would have possibly got in Russia would have been a joke too.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 4):
f cause the 15 years he would have possibly got in Russia would have been a joke too.

certainly not for the guy himself. He was lucky to have diplomatic status, as an average German company rep in MOW he'd had to buy himself out of this.

Read about this already yesterday. Knowing German judges when it comes to traffic cases I cannot imagine that they gave preferrential teatment.
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na
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:11 am

Btw, this guy owned the Cayenne.
A 5000 Euro fine for someone who can afford a 120.000 Euro car is a joke.
For comparison, that would be less than 1000 Euro fine for VW Golf driver if the same standrads are applied - for killing two young guys!

The worse: he´ll loose his driving license for just one month.
Just to set the standard right: If you´re caught drunk in Germany but have caused nothing, you´ll loose it for three months.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:38 am

I would suspect that all insurance companies will either making him unisurable or only at extremely high rates. His basic 3rd party insurance on a older model 1 liter VW Polo could cost him many 1000's in Euros/year if he can get it. He could also lose his job, his diplomatic immunity, have more difficulty in getting any job that involves driving and other difficulties in his life. I bet he will never be allowed into Russia again.
Most of all, he will have to live with the guilt and shame for his killing 2 persons.
 
pilotsmoe
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:44 am



Quoting NA (Reply 4):
This man drove 50 km/h above the city speed limit - thats motorway-speed, and even if nothing happens, you´ll loose your driving license for it. A very grave mistake even without accident. Unless those two students ran onto the road drunken and in darkness this sentence is a joke under all circumstances. Of cause the 15 years he would have possibly got in Russia would have been a joke too.

50 km/h (30 mph) isn't exactly all that fast. That's a pretty common speed limit in an American city, unless it's a school zone.
 
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:49 am



Quoting Pilotsmoe (Reply 8):
50 km/h (30 mph) isn't exactly all that fast. That's a pretty common speed limit in an American city, unless it's a school zone.

It's 50 km/h (30 mph) OVER the limit. That's not the speed he was traveling at.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:11 am



Quoting NA (Reply 6):
Btw, this guy owned the Cayenne.
A 5000 Euro fine for someone who can afford a 120.000 Euro car is a joke.
For comparison, that would be less than 1000 Euro fine for VW Golf driver if the same standrads are applied - for killing two young guys!

The worse: he´ll loose his driving license for just one month.
Just to set the standard right: If you´re caught drunk in Germany but have caused nothing, you´ll loose it for three months.

The guy was not drunk, he was just speeding. Had he been drunk, the fine would be much higher and he would likely serve some time, may be a year or so.

Fines do not go by the value of the car, fines go by the income you have. I mentioned before, that diplomats do not pay VAT and other taxex on cars, so the purchase price the the Cayenne was likely much beloe €100K.

He could afford that car while he was a teacher in Russia, with a high tax free income., he left Russia immediately afterwards. If he does not have a new job now (and he likely will never get anything near the income he had in MOW), and if he lives on tranfer income, € 5000,00 is ore than a years worth.. Fines go by the "days income x number of days here as you know.

There was an article in die WELT yesterday and the judges in Muenster said that the fine was not at the lower level of the spectrum., The other thing is, the Russians should not complain about this at all, the son of a high ranking minister was invlved in something similar and the case was dismissed.
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sr117
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:26 am

This article certainly does not paint the guy in a very positive light:

http://www.russia-ic.com/news/show/8539/

Unfortunately my iffy german does not allow me to browse German sites for more info on the case.

Aren't these cases deserving of vehicular manslaughter? How can you treat running someone over like any other traffic violation? Unless of course the driver can prove that there was no other way to avoid the collision..
 
PanHAM
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:48 am

nlo doubt that this guy is a reckless driver, but he cannot be punished for more than what the law says in this case. If he had no previous conviction, was not dsrunk, that's it.

If he was drunk, he would not have gone away with a probation term (the maximum for that is 2 years, if convicted for longer than 2 years, it cannot be on probation) but that would have been for a first time offender not even 3 years. The maximum sentence is 5 years I believe.
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na
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 F

Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:39 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Fines do not go by the value of the car, fines go by the income you have.

And 99% of the Cayenne owners will have a higher income than a VW Golf driver I´d guess. Otherwise they couldnt afford it, even if he didnt have to pay VAT (which was the case here).

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Fines go by the "days income x number of days here as you know.

Thats right. But isnt your fortune also brought into this formula? But fortune is likely counting less than income. Germany taxes high what you achieve by your own hands, and taxes low, what you get for free.  banghead 

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
nlo doubt that this guy is a reckless driver, but he cannot be punished for more than what the law says in this case.

You mean, German law says you can kill to people and the highest punishment in terms of car driving is a 4 week pause? Thats ridiculous. A case of law and right are totally different pairs of shoes.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:14 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 13):
Germany taxes high what you achieve by your own hands, and taxes low, what you get for free. banghead

how do you know this guy owns a "fortune"? Even if the income from that fortune is taxed at aextactly the same rate as all other income. Chances are that he, after he lost his job in MOW, has no income at all right now. Otherwise the fine must have been higher than e 5K

.

Quoting NA (Reply 13):
You mean, German law says you can kill to people and the highest punishment in terms of car driving is a 4 week

I don't quote my opinion here, I report from what I have read in a ndewspaper about this case. Now, "killing people" and causing death by accident is not the same. The punishment was not only 4 weeks license suspension but a sentence on probation and the said € 5K penalty.

Quoting NA (Reply 13):
A case of law and right are totally different pairs of shoes

May be. But then you must agree that 15 years in a Russian jail would have been totally out of line and the dismissal of a case where the son of a Russian minister also killed people in a traffic accident (and he was, other than the German guy, drunk) is certaqinly not right. The latter could not have happened in Germany.
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na
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:23 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
May be. But then you must agree that 15 years in a Russian jail would have been totally out of line

I do. See my earlier post.

I only wanted to say that its a very low sentence, if someone who killed two people due to gross negligence only looses his driving license for 4 weeks (probation and 5K fine aside). 30 km/h above the speed limit in the city alone will mean you´ll loose it for 1 months in Germany. This man drove 50 km/h too much and killed two. Same penalty. So something doesnt add up here. This you cant deny.
Seems that in respect of the driving license the German law doesnt care if you just drove too fast or if you drove too fast and caused a deadly accident. This is not right.
 
flybyguy
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:37 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
You forget that this is the standard sentence in Germany for causing an accidental death in a car accident. He was not drunk, if he had been drunken, the sentence would have been higher and he would have eventually have to spend a few months in jail

So you're telling me that if I flew to Frankfurt, rented a car and mowed down a couple people crossing the street for the hell of it... that I could just pay a small pittance and go on my merry way? I'm surprised Germany isn't the number one tourist destination for hard core GTA gamers!
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PanHAM
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:59 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 15):
Seems that in respect of the driving license the German law doesnt care if you just drove too fast or if you drove too fast and caused a deadly accident. This is not right.

we are just guessing here, thew written verdict would be the source of information why the judges not handed out a harsher sentence.



Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 16):
So you're telling me that if I flew to Frankfurt, rented a car and mowed down a couple people crossing the street for the hell of it... that I could just pay a small pittance and go on my merry way? I'm surprised Germany isn't the number one tourist destination for hard core GTA gamers!

I am not telling you anything, except that after you posted this here, you better not do that because the DA might accuse you of intentionally mowing down people because the fines are - what you consider - a pittance. In that case you will go in for manslaughter and serve about 10 years, but OK, it's much more comfy here than any US or Russian prison. Except, may be as a Yank you might get caugt in between the front lines of the Arab and Russian gangs.

Anyway, the law says that there is a maximum sentence of 5 years plus a penalty which is according to your income. With the severance of the case, this might be anything like 6 or twelve months of the net income. First time offenders never get the highest, beeing drunk always makes the case and the penalty more severe.

BTW, this guy will have a gard time finding new employment, definatley not as a teacher employed by the Government.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Moscow: German Cayenne-driver Kills 2 - 5000 Fine!

Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:19 pm

Well, this week´s Spiegel already got hold of the case. According to the article, the teacher was caught numerous times by Moscow police for intentionally disobeying traffic rules (speeding, dangerous passing, driving on the wrong side of the road, when the lanes in his direction were blocked by congestion etc.), but, since he had diplomatic status, there was nothing they could do about it. From what I remember of this article, the Moscow police already complained about him to the ambassador before the accident, but nothing happened

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