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OA260
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Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:33 pm

After todays shameful conclusion of the report into Priests abusing and raping children what should their fate be?

Abuse 'covered up' by Dublin Archdiocese
Thursday, 26 November 2009 16:01
The report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin has said it has no doubt that clerical child abuse was covered up by the Archdiocese and other church authorities.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1126/abuse.html

------------

'Revulsion and anger' at report findings

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has questioned how any member of the Catholic Church would be allowed to put some clergy beyond the reach of the law.

Speaking at the publication of the report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, Mr Ahern said the bottom line is a collar will not protect the criminal.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1126/abusereax.html
 
Curtisman
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:37 pm

I don't know if you are referring to a group of guilty priests just in 1 country or worldwide - as this problem has happened in a few countries.

My opinion is that they face the penalty just as anyone else would face the penalty. They are not above the law.

Here in Canada we do not have the death penalty so my answer would be no if it happened here in Canada.
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mt99
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:51 pm



Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 1):
few countries.

I am willing to bet that this has happened in way more than a "few" countries.

Unfortunately, in some places like latin america - 99% of time priests would get away with it because the institutions that should deal with these issues are generally weak to begin with and unwilling to take on the powerful Catholic Church.
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kaitak
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:20 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 2):
Unfortunately, in some places like latin america - 99% of time priests would get away with it because the institutions that should deal with these issues are generally weak to begin with and unwilling to take on the powerful Catholic Church.

That's exactly what happened in Ireland. The church had far too much power; one man in particular had a land in that - the late John Charles McQuaid, archbishop of Dublin for c.40 years, but of course, it required the "connivance" and spinelessness at a political level. The Catholic Church had massive power in Ireland and it really makes me angry to think about what they did, for example, to young women who became pregnant out of wedlock and were sent to laundries - basically the equivalent of gulags in Russia: forgotten and without any rights, outside the protection of the law. The curse of the damned, as they say, is not that they did not wrong, but that they did nothing.

Here's another media report today:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/r...y-to-conceal-sex-abuse-435897.html

As to what should happen, well, I certainly think that the individuals should receive the full weight of the law; there's no point talking about the death penalty; such people, in any case, are really just walking dead anyway; living - no, existing - with the knowledge of having done what they have done - is not a life at all. But I think we need to look at the institution of the church and what needs to happen with it, because we know that even despite what has happened here, the church will still try - given half a chance - to throw its weight around when rights are given to people it views as "untermenschen" - be it gays, transsexuals or whoever else. We need to use this as the impetus for a final drive to break the influence of the church in Ireland - take it out of education, keep it to where it should be and make it absolutely clear that if it - or any of its members - so much as sneeze in the wrong direction, the state will come down on it.

Our eyes have been open for some time to how totally ridiculous it is to have a group of men who live an unhealthy, enforced lifestyle (and don't tell me celibrcy doesn't have a part in this - not that it's an excuse for a moment for what they did), with very limited "real world" knowledge/experience - trying to impose their views on society at large and worse still, having virtual impunity in discriminating against other sections of society; how bloody absurd it was!

Just can't wait to see what Pope Benedict says about this - no doubt some crocodile tears and a "heartfelt apology".
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:41 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but since when is the death penalty the standard punishment for rape?  Yeah sure

If and when they throw these sick bastards behind bars, they WILL receive the appropriate punishment from their fellow inmates, I guarantee it.  box 
 
PSA53
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:50 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
Correct me if I'm wrong but since when is the death penalty the standard punishment for rape?

Agree.To the law.Not an act of vengeance.

 checkmark 

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):

If and when they throw these sick bastards behind bars, they WILL receive the appropriate punishment from their fellow inmates, I guarantee it.

Agreed,part 2.But if there's major problem in Catholicism,can it not be said the problem is widespread in many other religious practices?
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Mir
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:15 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 5):
But if there's major problem in Catholicism,can it not be said the problem is widespread in many other religious practices?

I'd tend to say no. Other religions may have their own things that they'd prefer to keep behind closed doors, but the Catholic Church seems to be the only one with a widespread child molestation problem.

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Kiwirob
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:21 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
they WILL receive the appropriate punishment from their fellow inmates, I guarantee it.

How can you guarantee that? Are you speaking from personal experience?
 
kaitak
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:45 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
But if there's major problem in Catholicism,can it not be said the problem is widespread in many other religious practices?

I doubt it; I maintain that it's because of the unhealthy nature of the church and its attitudes to celibacy; the combination of that and the "availability" - for want of a far better words - of vulnerable young people outside the protection of the state was little short of a tinder-box. It's a bit like the Reason Model of Organisation failure (the Swiss cheese model); here, the cheeses lined up and the result is, well, what you have now.

Is this really so absurd? If there was a healthy, human, realistic and compassionate approach to human sexuality, recognising that people have a sexual persona, would the current crisis have arisen, or have been as bad as it is? I doubt it very much.

Will it change? No; not really; it's as committed to celibacy as it always was, and as mysogenistic as it always was (witness the plan to attract ultra right wing members of the Church of England into its ranks). Again, ingredients for a very lopsided and unhealthy view of - and relationship to - the real world, the world inhabited by its rapidly diminishing flock.

I always make the parallel between the church and a wing; what happens if the wing doesn't flex; it snaps off or breaks up; the same will ultimately happen to the Church.
 
mt99
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:21 pm

how does the bible suggest we deal with rape?
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rfields5421
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:26 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 5):
But if there's major problem in Catholicism,can it not be said the problem is widespread in many other religious practices?


I'd tend to say no. Other religions may have their own things that they'd prefer to keep behind closed doors, but the Catholic Church seems to be the only one with a widespread child molestation problem.

Not according to what I have seen in the news media and reports of lawsuits in the US.

There is not the organized level of moving suspected child abusers to other churches or treatment centers and not reporting suspicions to the police as occured with the Catholic church. However there have been several cases in the Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Church of Christ and most other Protestant religious groups in the US.

And I'm not even counting those 'fundamentalist' and ex-communicated Mormon sects in the news with their spiritual marriages to underage girls.

The lawsuits and criminal cases tend to be smaller headlines for the other churches because proving an official coverup is much more difficult in a church without the well organized structure of the Catholic church.

But there have been plenty of youth ministers and such who have moved from church to church over the years, leaving behind a trail of abused children.

However, there does seem to be more male-male in the Catholic church and male-female in the Protestant churches in my opinion.
 
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OA260
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:35 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
Correct me if I'm wrong but since when is the death penalty the standard punishment for rape?  

For rape and murder I support the death penalty.
 
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:51 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
how does the bible suggest we deal with rape?

Deuteronomy 22:

Quote:
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

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mt99
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penal

Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:00 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):
Quote:
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

this is female rape. so men are fair play?

what about rape of a non-virgin?
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Cadet57
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:25 pm



Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
After todays shameful conclusion of the report into Priests abusing and raping children what should their fate be?

The same as anyone else convicted of rape. So now there is a separate legal standard for priests?

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
Correct me if I'm wrong but since when is the death penalty the standard punishment for rape?

 checkmark 
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:04 pm



Quote:
For rape and murder I support the death penalty.



Quote:
The same as anyone else convicted of rape. So now there is a separate legal standard for priests?

Gay catholic priests. Would this be a hate crime, since the gay priest is forcing himself on a boy who may not be gay ? Maybe these gay catholic priests should get the death penalty ?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1126/abusedetail.html

Quote:
"The report states the priest had a total aversion to all women and brought young boys for trips in his car and to nude bathing sessions in a swimming pool in his garden."

Wonder how many of these priests belong to NAMBLA ? Exploiting children, that is sick.
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OA260
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:16 pm



Quoting CALTECH (Reply 15):
Gay catholic priests. Would this be a hate crime, since the gay priest is forcing himself on a boy who may not be gay ? Maybe these gay catholic priests should get the death penalty ?

Gay , Straight , Polish whatever , if you do the crime then take the penalty. IMHO
 
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:45 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 5):

Agreed,part 2.But if there's major problem in Catholicism,can it not be said the problem is widespread in many other religious practices?

Part of the issue is celibacy, I think. What heterosexual man would decide to forgo sex for life? I've always believed that it had to be a repository for people with sexual desires that were unacceptable. I'm sure that lots were gay men and that there's been plenty of schtupping among priests and monks. But some pedophiles also got in there, and they had access to kids.

By contrast, to be a minister in, say a Baptist Church, you almost have to be married. I don't think I've ever met a protestant minister who wasn't married, or at least engaged. That doesn't mean that pedophiles don't get into those positions, too, but I think it cuts down on it.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 15):

Gay catholic priests. Would this be a hate crime, since the gay priest is forcing himself on a boy who may not be gay ? Maybe these gay catholic priests should get the death penalty ?

Wait. Stop. Whether you molest little boys or little girls, it is not an issue of gay or straight. Pedophiles are attracted to little kids. Gay men are attracted to men. Not little boys.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:56 pm

It is interesting to read the suggestion that these criminals should receive the death penalty, and the response that these people have not committed murder.

No, they haven't taken anyone's life.

They took their victims' souls and their dignity. Their victims have their own life sentences; what punishment could ever be commensurate to such an act, made worse by the fact people have knowingly turned a blind eye for years?

Rgds.
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sasd209
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:56 am



Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
After todays shameful conclusion of the report into Priests abusing and raping children what should their fate be?

Surely we should not change the laws to "punish" this lot? If so, where does it stop?
 
nwadeicer
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:29 am

I'll tell ya what. My wife is a Detective, her area of expertise is crimes against children. A couple of days ago she comes home from work in tears, she had to watch a video that a 26yr old man had made of him fucking a 6 yr old girl. And last month she had a case of a 9 yr old girl who's stepfather had been raping her for the last 3 years, and keeping her locked in a large dog crate. If the girl soiled her underwear she was forced to eat it. Oh, I forgot about the case about 6 months ago of the young boy who has to have a colostomy bag for the rest of his life due to not having any control over his sphincter muscle as the result of numerous rapes.

Sorry, don't buy the no death penalty for rapists.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:46 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
How can you guarantee that? Are you speaking from personal experience?

Hell no. But it is well known rapists and specially pedophiles are the most hated out of all the inmates at a prison.
 
Flighty
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:00 am

I agree with NWA, we can send them straight to their new home, burning in hell.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:55 am

Death penalty, no, that isn't going to happen. If the public courts can convict, extremely long jail terms, including life terms as should be available for any other sex offender.

As to the far too many abuses by Roman Catholic Priests, perhaps what really needs to be done is to find some way in law to go after the Bishops and other Roman Catholic Church authorities as well as the organization itself. The nature of the RCC's organiztion, their power structure, conflicting Church Law, all makes it too easy for the Church to cover up the crimes and the Criminals.

Perhaps ending certain tax exemptions and other privileges, not allowed to officiate marriages for the state, not allowed to participate in any social programs or to operate games of chance or get temporary alcoholic beverage licenses for parties on church property and the like that require government agency licenses or approvals would be a way to let the RCC know they were wrong to the greater society.
 
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:14 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):

For rape and murder I support the death penalty.

Come on man. You're being way too soft on them. For rape and murder I support pulling fingernails and then death penalty  bigthumbsup 
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
kaitak
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:21 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 23):
As to the far too many abuses by Roman Catholic Priests, perhaps what really needs to be done is to find some way in law to go after the Bishops and other Roman Catholic Church authorities as well as the organization itself.

But that's the civil law of the state; the problem in Ireland wasn't that there was no law, but that those involved in enforcing the law chose not to do so and chose to take a view that had no valid legal standing, i.e. that the church and its members were above the law.

As far as the death penalty is concerned, perhaps the only argument one can make here is that all of this should have come to light in the 60s and 70s, when the death penalty was still on our statute books (the death penalty was on our statute books until the 1990s, though the last execution was in 1954). The problem here is that the political will simply did not exist to take the church on and such was the power that the church held over the state and its people that any attempt to do so could have been electoral suicide and any minister brave enough to do so would probably have been "got at" from various different angles. Tragically, just another hole lining up in the cheeses, as I mentioned in a previous post.

In the post war years, as a strongly Catholic society, we were a bulwark against communism and identified the church with freedom. How ironic it is, now, to find that so many children - innocents, not people (as in the communist world) who took a political stance against the authorities - were put in a position, with the connivance of all in authority , that removed them from the protection of the state, or indeed any protection whatsoever.

It's futile, of course, to talk about what should have happened, but had the will existed then to take the church on, that's when the death penalty should have been used - and the legal system enforced rigorously to tackle this issue. Instead, the poison was just allowed to spread.

Here's an editorial from today's Irish Times (the leading Irish daily newspaper):

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...inion/2009/1127/1224259545409.html
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:16 am

I'm starting to think, more and more that the old idea of penal colonies could work, particularly for the most serious of criminals

I think, set up a big empty island somewhere with enough resource to sustain a population. Just start dumping people on it. Every couple of weeks, bring in any new convicts and just add to the population.

It would be a living hell, but taking a big picture view of community impact, positive overall.

Minimal adminstration and security would be required, so long as the islanders do not have the means to construct a form of escape.

Thinking of New Zealand, we could use the Chatham Islands for this purpose. Australia could use the Christmas Islands, Lord Howe Island, or Norfolk Island. France can send theirs to the UK.
 
TheCol
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:29 am

These guys will get what they deserve in prison.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):

Are you suggesting that church and state be one and the same?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:21 am



Quoting TheCol (Reply 27):
Are you suggesting that church and state be one and the same?

Some would say in the past they were, which has brought Ireland to where they are today with this terrible episode.
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:53 am

The penalty should be high considering the position the person holds.
regds
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na
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:21 pm

This death penalty rubbish makes me sick. Especially when no one involved committed a murder. A long imprisonment (under very harsh conditions of cause) is a worse sentence than the electric chair anyway.
You shall not kill. Not even a state should when not at war. In war I support the strongest measures against soldiers raping civilians. Otherwise not.

That said, this case in Ireland seems to be the biggest and saddest ever discovered in this respect. As Priests, in particular catholic priests, are generally public persons of respect and to some extent teachers the criminal ones now found should be suffering an exemplary penalty at the very highest level the law allows. I dont know how much that is in Ireland. And they should be send amongst likewise scum, means serious criminals, and not be locked away in a specially protected cage. Maybe they´ll find one or the other of their former victims in prison to get the right payback.
 
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OA260
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:35 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 24):
Come on man. You're being way too soft on them. For rape and murder I support pulling fingernails and then death penalty

Some of the stuff I was reading in the newspaper on the flight this morning was just very upsetting.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Wait. Stop. Whether you molest little boys or little girls, it is not an issue of gay or straight. Pedophiles are attracted to little kids. Gay men are attracted to men. Not little boys.

Very true. Its a shame when people are so ignorant to actually believe that. Theres no hope for some people in this world. The rest of us have to get on with it.
 
mt99
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:08 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 24):
For rape and murder I support pulling fingernails and then death penalty   

But that would make you a terrible Catholic..
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Jalap
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:42 pm

One remarkable point: I don't know about other countries but in Belgium this isn't getting major media attention. It sure is mentionned on TV news and gets a page in the papers but can in no way be compared to the attention the Josef Fritzl case got! (And definitely not comparable to Dutroux but that has a fairly logical explanation)

Why is that? Surely this case is far bigger than what those individuals did. Hell, it went on for decades, hundreds of victims, dozens of criminals of the worst kind AND they were protected by the state. In Belgium ministers got fired, people lost all trust in justice, our police was completely reformed after Dutroux. Then, when priests do practically the same on a gigantically larger scale.... barely anything happens. Has this got something to do with nobody being surprised about Christian priests molesting children? Do we find this not as important as an individual psychopath? I don't get it!
 
EISHN
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:58 pm

Personally, I think we are horribly spineless in this country. The reports come out, they stay in the news and media for two weeks, we all go on about how terrible it was, the government and the Gardaí say they will punish those responsible, and then it all fades away, and another story takes over, and nothing is done. I have no fatith in the Government to do much about this, or for that matter, the opposition either, even if they get into power. We the people, really couldn't be bothered to put any pressure on the powers that be to do something, and there's not much that can really be done. Hell, we don't even know the names of many of the abusers, as they have once again been protected. Even if we got to the stage of prosecuting them, it would be a terrifically lenghty process, and then any sentance that is handed down wouldn't be enough for the people who are crying for blood.
It wouldn't change the churches position in this country. They would still have the special privalages that they have now, they would still have a vast amount of control over the schools. I can't imagine a time in Ireland when there won't be a crucifix in every class room.
I have to say, the Gardaí working on this report did a very good, by the book job. But it's hard to tell how much farther it will go. The last report released a few months ago hasn't seen anyone tried or convicted.
I have no faith in God, the church, or this country to really tackle this problem. Very soon, many of those abusers will be dead, or nearly dead, having gotten away with a crime against humanity. Fuck 'em.
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babybus
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:42 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
For rape and murder I support the death penalty.

The death penalty is a bit final, isn't it? How many times have people been accused of these crimes only later to find they were innocent.

I don't like that these guys abused their position of trust with boys when there would have been adult males they could have propositioned.

Surely as Catholic priests their punishment awaits them in the fiery bowels of Hell for all eternity.  devil 
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OA260
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:36 am



Quoting Babybus (Reply 35):
The death penalty is a bit final, isn't it? How many times have people been accused of these crimes only later to find they were innocent.

Well it would have to be beyond reasonable doubt and also there is a period between being sentanced and actually being given the lethal injection. Also with DNA and other technologies around its easier than years ago. Indeed modern technology has freed people in recent times. Maybe a period of 2 years would be appropriate before punishment was carried out.

I will never have kids but the right of children to be protected as much as is humanly possible remains a strong belief of mine. The effect it has on them in their adult life can be totally destroying making them unable to have proper relationships and can lead to suicide and other mental health issues.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:16 am

I don't believe in the Death penalty for most cases involving murder. I certainly don't believe in it for cases of rape.
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mayor
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RE: Should Guilty Catholic Priests Get Death Penalty?

Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 26):
Thinking of New Zealand, we could use the Chatham Islands for this purpose. Australia could use the Christmas Islands, Lord Howe Island, or Norfolk Island. France can send theirs to the UK.

I can think of a couple of islands in the Aleutian chain off Alaska that would work for the U.S. I was stationed on one of them, Shemya, in the Air Force and it would be perfect.
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