Mike89406
Topic Author
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 pm

My Clutch Is Done.

Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:26 pm

After 7 years since brand new and 198,000 miles on my 2002 Honda Accord the clutch is about done. I knew it was wearing out slowly about a month ago and was going to replace it but not this quick.

The car took a turn for the worse all the sudden yesterday as the clutch was slipping bad enough where I could barley get over 55-60 without over revving the engine, but anytime before that even Friday it was fine with a little slippage. After Parking the car finally you could smell a faint smell of burnt metal after I parked the car in my garage. I can still drive the car but it barely goes uphill although i=t can slowly get up to a speed once you build momentum or go downhill. I decided to park it since yesterday. In fact I might have it towed to the dealership.

When I first got a quote about a month ago one guy said 1,600.00 and change which was why i waited. I called the same dealer yesterday another sales rep told me 1,600.00 sounds steep unless you need more extensive work done actually starting price according to him is around 1200-1300.

One question I have is this what I should expect with parts and labor? It sucks though as this is my only car right now.

Mike
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:31 pm

A clutch change is a pretty straightforward job. Don´t you have independent garages around? Little father and son outfits not attached to any brand? They can probably do the job much cheaper and even loan you a car while they fix your own (even if it is an old clunker, at least it will get you to work and back).
Or, see if you can rent a lift in some place for a day plus a gearbox jack, get the parts and change the clutch yourself.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:50 pm

Clutch changes aren't really that complicated as Jan said. The hard part is getting to the clutch. Once you get to it you pretty much just slap a new one in.
 
N1120A
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:44 am



Quoting Mike89406 (Thread starter):

When I first got a quote about a month ago one guy said 1,600.00 and change which was why i waited.

Complete and total rip. Going to the dealer will always be so. You should not hesitate to take it to a cheaper local mechanic, especially since clutch jobs are really easy.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Mike89406
Topic Author
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:25 am

Mike

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 2):
Clutch changes aren't really that complicated as Jan said. The hard part is getting to the clutch. Once you get to it you pretty much just slap a new one in.



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
clutch change is a pretty straightforward job. Don´t you have independent garages around? Little father and son outfits not attached to any brand? They can probably do the job much cheaper and even loan you a car while they fix your own (even if it is an old clunker, at least it will get you to work and back).
Or, see if you can rent a lift in some place for a day plus a gearbox jack, get the parts and change the clutch yourself

Another thing is should I worry about the flywheel?
 
ATCtower
Posts: 471
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:19 am

It all depends on if your Accord is a manual or auto.

If its a manual and youre close to Colorado, a buddy and I can do it for lunch and a six pack. If you are dealing with an automatic tranny, the price he quoted you (albeit high) is probably about what you will be looking for.

You can find the parts online including a new clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, and throw-out bearing (manual tranny) for about 500 for something you will never have to replace and find a friend who knows how to do it.

Long story short, a manual transmission is far easier to work on with Japanese cars than an automatic. I have been shopping around for some time now as I will be replacing my clutch (et. al) on my WRX and even being AWD, I do not plan to spend more than about 800 all inclusive and we are doing the work ourselves in a garage over a weekend.
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
afterburner
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:35 am



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 5):
It all depends on if your Accord is a manual or auto.

I thought Americans can't drive stick shift cars.  Silly
 
Mike89406
Topic Author
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:56 am



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 6):
Quoting ATCtower (Reply 5):
It all depends on if your Accord is a manual or auto.

I thought Americans can't drive stick shift cars.

 laughing  But seriously thats all I prefer to drive. Well at least for the last 15 years all the cars I've owned are standard. It can be a hassle driving in the big city streets though.

Mike
 
sovietjet
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:46 am



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 5):
It all depends on if your Accord is a manual or auto.

 Confused  Confused There's no clutch on an auto car...
 
Lrockeagle
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:40 am

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:58 am



Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 8):

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 5):
It all depends on if your Accord is a manual or auto.

Confused Confused There's no clutch on an auto car...

Totally just made my night! I read it and read it and never caught that!  silly 
 
afterburner
Posts: 982
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:32 am

From Wikipedia

Quote:
A clutch is a mechanism for transmitting rotation, which can be engaged and disengaged. Clutches are useful in devices that have two rotating shafts.

Clutches exist in cars with automatic transmission. The different is that they are engaged and disengaged automatically, not by the drivers.
 
sovietjet
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Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:34 am



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 10):
Clutches exist in cars with automatic transmission. The different is that they are engaged and disengaged automatically, not by the drivers.

Well sure, but in an auto transmission it is known as a torque converter. No mechanic or auto shop would call it a clutch. For one thing, a clutch in the traditional and popular meaning of the word works differently than a torque converter.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 11768
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:31 am



Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 11):

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 10):
Clutches exist in cars with automatic transmission. The different is that they are engaged and disengaged automatically, not by the drivers.

Well sure, but in an auto transmission it is known as a torque converter. No mechanic or auto shop would call it a clutch. For one thing, a clutch in the traditional and popular meaning of the word works differently than a torque converter.

Indeed. Torque converters work through a fluid medium, if I remember correctly. Suppose you could call it a "fluid clutch" or something, but it's not the regular flat-plate clutch found in manual transmissions.

Although, these days, there are automatic transmission cars being built with clutches. I keep hearing about cars that have a dual-clutch automatic transmission.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
N1120A
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:36 am



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 5):
It all depends on if your Accord is a manual or auto.

It is certainly a manual.

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 6):

I thought Americans can't drive stick shift cars.

 Silly

Sad, but true. That said, I refuse to own a car without 3 pedals.

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 10):
Clutches exist in cars with automatic transmission. The different is that they are engaged and disengaged automatically, not by the drivers.

True clutches only exist on true manuals and a small minority of high end sequential transmissions. Otherwise, they are very different animals.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Molykote
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:43 am



Quoting Mike89406 (Thread starter):
When I first got a quote about a month ago one guy said 1,600.00 and change which was why i waited. I called the same dealer yesterday another sales rep told me 1,600.00 sounds steep unless you need more extensive work done actually starting price according to him is around 1200-1300.

One question I have is this what I should expect with parts and labor? It sucks though as this is my only car right now.

A quick look at an OEM clutch "kit" lists parts at $160 delivered from an internet vendor vs. $260 MSRP. If you're going to a shop, I'd expect parts costs to be closer to $260 MSRP + consumables.

People often look at parts and overlook the cost of skilled labor. Here's my objective take.

My last dealer labor rate experiences are noted below:
$95/hr at a BMW dealer (330Ci)
$85/hr at a Toyota dealer (Camry)
$65/hr at a Mazda dealer (MX-5)

Assuming ~$300 for parts (MSRP for clutch + consumables and tax) and Toyota-like labor rates, this leaves 15+ hours of labor to replace a clutch. Way too much.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
afterburner
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:38 am

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:26 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
I refuse to own a car without 3 pedals.

You'll change your mind if you live in Jakarta. Big grin
 
Cadet57
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:57 pm



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 12):
Although, these days, there are automatic transmission cars being built with clutches. I keep hearing about cars that have a dual-clutch automatic transmission.

Like the VW DSG gearbox. the 1st, 3rd and 5th gears have their own "clutch" and the 2nd 4th and 6th gears have their own "clutch" so the next gear is always engaged to shift. Its amazing.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:45 pm

Technically, automatic transmissions have "clutch packs", and there can be up to 30 or more clutches within those packs, but they serve a different purpose.

But yes basically the torque converter is to an auto what a clutch is to a manual.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:50 pm

Perhaps if you didn't ride the clutch you'd have made another 200 miles out of it.  crazy . But even at 1600.00 it's better than a car payment and the beast should last another 200,000 miles.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
AM744
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:55 pm



Quoting Mike89406 (Thread starter):
I knew it was wearing out slowly about a month ago and was going to replace it but not this quick.

How did you know it was wearing out? I'm concerned about my own 6 year old car. How can I determine if my clutch is about to be done without having it dissassembled (and ripped while having a preventive check done)?
 
Mike89406
Topic Author
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:58 pm



Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 18):
Perhaps if you didn't ride the clutch you'd have made another 200 miles out of it. . But even at 1600.00 it's better than a car payment and the beast should last another 200,000 miles.

I don't ride the clutch. My wife did in the beginning til I got on her about it. But yeah it should last another 200,000 miles with a new clutch system. Everyone even the dealer seemed suprised it has lasted so long.
 
desertjets
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:02 pm



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 20):
Everyone even the dealer seemed suprised it has lasted so long.

But nearly 200k miles on a 7 year old car indicates to me that you are not doing a lot of short distance, stop n go driving, so getting that much life out of a clutch seems reasonable. With the insane resale that a Honda commands... even an '02 Accord with a fried clutch, you probably end up ahead replacing the clutch vs. buying new.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Mike89406
Topic Author
Posts: 1388
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:13 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 19):
Quoting Mike89406 (Thread starter):
I knew it was wearing out slowly about a month ago and was going to replace it but not this quick.

How did you know it was wearing out? I'm concerned about my own 6 year old car. How can I determine if my clutch is about to be done without having it dissassembled (and ripped while having a preventive check done)?

The first ominous sign was several months ago when I would accelerate after shifting there was a literal slipping once in a while right after shifting in to gear. FOR EXAMPLE- (like holding the brake and accelerating but not hard enough to hold the wheel completely and it moves or jitters as you move in to speed)

I let that go for a while because it was only occasionally that would happen and it worked fine most of the time.

1 1/2 months ago or less all of the sudden the tachometer would rev up really fast and was squirrley but the speed didn't go as quick as it used to. When I was driving normal and put a little gas to speed up the tach would quickly jump up until I slowed down.

On Saturday it was so bad I could hardly accelerate past a certain speed without the tach jumping over 4,000 RPM. You will notice that because the engine has to work too hard to do its normal job. Believe me it's something you'll never forget.

Mike
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:21 pm



Quoting Molykote (Reply 14):
People often look at parts and overlook the cost of skilled labor. Here's my objective take.

My last dealer labor rate experiences are noted below:
$95/hr at a BMW dealer (330Ci)
$85/hr at a Toyota dealer (Camry)
$65/hr at a Mazda dealer (MX-5)

This is very expensive. Hourly rates around here are around $ 50-60 with a non-branded shop and a little more with a dealership.

In Berlin we used to have a chain of shops called Nippon parts, They sold wear parts for Japanese cars, if you wanted without the brand name printed on them, but from the same supplier and same quality as OEM parts, but a LOT cheaper.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:19 pm



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 22):

You will notice that because the engine has to work too hard to do its normal job.

Also, overworked, overheated or dying clutches put out a very distinctive smell. If you've ever roasted your own brakes after autocrossing/agressive mountain driving or have seen a semitruck with stuck breaks its a very similar smell.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:31 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 15):

You'll change your mind if you live in Jakarta.

I already live in Los Angeles. I do not fear traffic.  Wink

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 22):

The first ominous sign was several months ago when I would accelerate after shifting there was a literal slipping once in a while right after shifting in to gear

At that point, you should have started looking to repalace

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 22):
1 1/2 months ago or less all of the sudden the tachometer would rev up really fast and was squirrley but the speed didn't go as quick as it used to. When I was driving normal and put a little gas to speed up the tach would quickly jump up until I slowed down.

On Saturday it was so bad I could hardly accelerate past a certain speed without the tach jumping over 4,000 RPM. You will notice that because the engine has to work too hard to do its normal job. Believe me it's something you'll never forget.

I remember driving my car from New Orleans to Los Angeles with it doing that exact thing. Not fun at all. And it happens pretty quickly.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 21):

But nearly 200k miles on a 7 year old car indicates to me that you are not doing a lot of short distance, stop n go driving, so getting that much life out of a clutch seems reasonable.

Yeah, that is exactly my take. It also helps that the car is likely a low powered 4-cyl using the same clutch as larger engined cars.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 20):

I don't ride the clutch. My wife did in the beginning til I got on her about it. But yeah it should last another 200,000 miles with a new clutch system. Everyone even the dealer seemed suprised it has lasted so long.

I'm not surprised, and it really has nothing to do with it being a Honda. All clutches are essentially created equal as far as wear and tear. If you are easy on them, and avoid a lot of hills, you can stretch a clutch a long way.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 19):
How can I determine if my clutch is about to be done without having it dissassembled (and ripped while having a preventive check done)?

It starts with the car failing to immediately disengage. Then you will notice it more if it actually revs some before you shift. At this point, you need to move immediately. If it isn't slipping, you should be fine.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sovietjet
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:03 am

On my car the first signs I noticed that the clutch is done is that it slipped when the car is cold(Chicago winters hehe). For example I would start the car warm it up for a couple of minutes and when I start driving especially in 5th gear it would slip even with a little bit of gas. What I never understood is why it starts slipping at the longer gears first. It would slip in 5th but not in 3rd  Confused . After 15-20 minutes of driving it's warmed up real good and the slipping went away. But eventually after couple of months with more wear it came back at all temperatures so that's when I changed it. By the way I paid about $250 for parts ordered online and 4 hours of labor for a total of around $600. The car was a Subaru WRX. So $1600 is a total ripoff especially for a Honda.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:11 am



Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 26):
What I never understood is why it starts slipping at the longer gears first. It would slip in 5th but not in 3rd Confused .

As you said yourself, because of the "longer" ratios. It takes more "effort" for the engine to lug the car around on 5th than on 3rd.
 
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fxramper
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:33 am

6 yrs, and 56,000+ mi on my beamer - priceless
new clutch that the BMW tech said outlasted M3 quality - $3,300

I'm buying an Acura in January.  rotfl 
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 11768
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:53 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
I already live in Los Angeles. I do not fear traffic.

Haha, I feel the same way, having driven a manual transmission in Boston and Los Angeles. I'm probably the only person I know who doesn't mind driving a manual in stop-and-go traffic one bit. I don't even really notice it.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 16):
Like the VW DSG gearbox. the 1st, 3rd and 5th gears have their own "clutch" and the 2nd 4th and 6th gears have their own "clutch" so the next gear is always engaged to shift. Its amazing.

Yeah, I'd be interested to drive one of those sometime. Practically zero shift time. However, I think I'll stick to manuals as far as owning.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 20):

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 18):
Perhaps if you didn't ride the clutch you'd have made another 200 miles out of it. . But even at 1600.00 it's better than a car payment and the beast should last another 200,000 miles.

I don't ride the clutch. My wife did in the beginning til I got on her about it. But yeah it should last another 200,000 miles with a new clutch system. Everyone even the dealer seemed suprised it has lasted so long.

200,000 miles is longer than every clutch replacement I've heard about.

My Civic is at 110,000 miles now. Doing the timing belt, spark plugs, etc. tomorrow. Hoping the clutch will last till 150,000 at least.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 28):
6 yrs, and 56,000+ mi on my beamer - priceless
new clutch that the BMW tech said outlasted M3 quality - $3,300

Wait....did you have to replace the clutch after 56,000 miles???
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:09 am



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):
Yeah, I'd be interested to drive one of those sometime. Practically zero shift time.

I drove a GTi with one, it was spectacular. Getting on the highway was almost effortless for that car.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:24 am



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):

Haha, I feel the same way, having driven a manual transmission in Boston and Los Angeles. I'm probably the only person I know who doesn't mind driving a manual in stop-and-go traffic one bit. I don't even really notice it.

I don't mind or notice it either. Its all about getting used to something and being smart about how you shift.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 28):

new clutch that the BMW tech said outlasted M3 quality - $3,300

Someone needs to be easier on his clutch. My M3 went nearly 100,000 miles on its first clutch, and I don't know how the driver for the first 4 years and 53k miles drove it.

Incidentally, the BMW people are ripping you off.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 28):

I'm buying an Acura in January.

Sorry for the downgrade.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):

Yeah, I'd be interested to drive one of those sometime. Practically zero shift time. However, I think I'll stick to manuals as far as owning.

They claim that, yet manuals still often go faster. Three pedals for me.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):

200,000 miles is longer than every clutch replacement I've heard about.

I've seen that before, and generally on similar cars (4-cyl grocery getters).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:50 am



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):

Yeah, I'd be interested to drive one of those sometime. Practically zero shift time. However, I think I'll stick to manuals as far as owning.

I test drove a VW R32 with the DSG tranny (no manual option in the US  banghead  ). It is an AMAZING transmission. Smoother than, I dare say, a CVT and with lightning fast shifts.

BUT if you're a true gear head like myself, it's boring. It's too easy. Also, while the shifts themselves are nearly instant, there is a slight lag between pressing the button and having the tranny actually shift. Not to mention there's no proper paddle shifters, just some dinky buttons or the floor lever. Plus I really missed that 3rd pedal.
 
Molykote
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:06 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):

This is very expensive. Hourly rates around here are around $ 50-60 with a non-branded shop and a little more with a dealership.

In Berlin we used to have a chain of shops called Nippon parts, They sold wear parts for Japanese cars, if you wanted without the brand name printed on them, but from the same supplier and same quality as OEM parts, but a LOT cheaper.

Jan

I know those are high labor rates, but not out of character for a dealer in the US. $95/hr is actually the lowest of my 3 closest BMW dealers. Incidentally, this is the dealer with the best technicians and customer service as well.

In my experience, $60-70 is a fair expectation for an independent service shop in the US.

Additionally, some jobs are quoted at a flat price depending on the dealer. My local BMW dealer charges $95 for an alignment that almost certainly takes more than 1hr. Considering the detail involved in the BMW published procedure (and $1k tire sets in addition to a natural desire for my car to handle properly), I think this is more than reasonable.

As for parts prices, I am familiar with OEM vs OE components. I typically use OEM components as I do most vehicle maintenance myself. I will occasionally pay the dealer premium (and OE parts by necessity) for incidental maintenance items if my car is in the shop for a procedure that I cannot or will not accomplish.

One nice aspect of driving a BMW is the extent to which 3rd parties cater to enthusaists with "improved" replacement parts. This doesn't necessarily refer to something like my Koni suspension package (which is geared toward a performance increase but requires civility tradeoffs) but includes common wear items of superior durability/cost as well.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 28):
6 yrs, and 56,000+ mi on my beamer - priceless
new clutch that the BMW tech said outlasted M3 quality - $3,300

That is an exceptionally short clutch life. I completely understand the nature of the M3 but this still doesn't explain 56k clutch life in my mind. A coworker of mine (with an E46 M3 and terrible driving skill/habits) hasn't seen clutch life that short.

Now... before someone jumps in with a "learn to drive jackass" put down.....

I'll be the first to admit that E46 clutch action isn't very plesant. Have you heard of (or are you using) a clutch stop? You might be surprised what an improvement it makes. Fundamentally, most people think that E46 vehicles have too much clutch pedal travel beyond the disengagement point. Adding a clutch stop prevents the pedal from travelling too far into this "dead" zone that does nothing to assist with a gear change.

Some E46 M3s also have a "clutch delay valve" that most people find undesireable. This could be removed quite easily when your clutch/brake fluid is being flushed (though a dealer probably wouldn't do it for you).
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55083

If you'd like any more info on the above, drop me a line and I'll be happy to make some suggestions.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
Molykote
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:21 am



Quoting Molykote (Reply 33):
Now... before someone jumps in with a "learn to drive .....



Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Someone needs to be easier on his clutch.

Excusing my posting lag time, meet "that guy"  Smile

Seriously though N1120A's allusions are spot on. A dead clutch at 53k is definitely more likely to be caused by driver abuse than anything. However, .../

My earlier suggestions about the system in your (FXramper's) M3 along with some acclimation to the configuration might help fall in love again and maybe even cure your "Acura symptoms".

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
I don't mind or notice it either. Its all about getting used to something and being smart about how you shift.

Agreed. Engagement in the driving process is the best feature of the classic manual transmission IMO. Performance differentials compared to a sequential are meaningless on the street.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):

Yeah, I'd be interested to drive one of those sometime. Practically zero shift time. However, I think I'll stick to manuals as far as owning.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
They claim that, yet manuals still often go faster. Three pedals for me.

What vehicles? Though I'll be the first to admit that the classic 3 pedal arrangement brings more joy to the driving process, I haven't seen a conventional maual (at least with identical gea ratios) out perform a sequential or double clutch.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
Mike89406
Topic Author
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:37 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 22):

The first ominous sign was several months ago when I would accelerate after shifting there was a literal slipping once in a while right after shifting in to gear

At that point, you should have started looking to repalace

Your right, I know I should have. This is the first time I've fried a clutch so it was a lesson learned.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Quoting Afterburner (Reply 15):

You'll change your mind if you live in Jakarta.

I already live in Los Angeles. I do not fear traffic.

Me either. I've lived in New York once where I had to drive a lot around the city in my job back then. After living near the Seattle area, and now San Diego   you pretty much get used to everything, and of course I make some occasional daytrips up tp LA.  

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 29):Haha, I feel the same way, having driven a manual transmission in Boston and Los Angeles. I'm probably the only person I know who doesn't mind driving a manual in stop-and-go traffic one bit. I don't even really notice it.

I don't mind or notice it either. Its all about getting used to something and being smart about how you shift.

The only thing I hate about city driving with a stick is stop and go traffic on the freeway in really bad traffic is because sometimes it becomes a workout after a while unless I am driving everyday then I get used to it.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 22):
1 1/2 months ago or less all of the sudden the tachometer would rev up really fast and was squirrley but the speed didn't go as quick as it used to. When I was driving normal and put a little gas to speed up the tach would quickly jump up until I slowed down.

On Saturday it was so bad I could hardly accelerate past a certain speed without the tach jumping over 4,000 RPM. You will notice that because the engine has to work too hard to do its normal job. Believe me it's something you'll never forget.

I remember driving my car from New Orleans to Los Angeles with it doing that exact thing. Not fun at all. And it happens pretty quickly.

Wow, I couldn't imagine how much that sucked.

Mike

[Edited 2009-11-30 18:42:14]
 
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LTU932
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:07 am

We were already fearing that when we got our Spectra almost 2 years ago, we would have to do a major clutch job as well. The gear would simply not enter at all, and the pedal would stay stuck. In the end, it was just a pin that got loose, so the dealer eventually re-installed this pin and this time, he secured it because the shop the car was in before we bought it (which belongs to his brother) did not secure that pin (not to mention that they forgot to connect the wipers to the electric system once, it's not that good to drive in the rain without wipers).

My father still wants to have a clutch job done though to make it a bit less hard, but I always talk him out of it because the clutch is working just fine. His complaint is that he has to press the clutch all the way through for the gear to enter but for me, I'm having no problems with it (unless the seat is not adjusted correctly, then I tend to have problems with the clutch).
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:03 am



Quoting Molykote (Reply 33):

I know those are high labor rates, but not out of character for a dealer in the US. $95/hr is actually the lowest of my 3 closest BMW dealers. Incidentally, this is the dealer with the best technicians and customer service as well.

In my experience, $60-70 is a fair expectation for an independent service shop in the US.

Additionally, some jobs are quoted at a flat price depending on the dealer. My local BMW dealer charges $95 for an alignment that almost certainly takes more than 1hr. Considering the detail involved in the BMW published procedure (and $1k tire sets in addition to a natural desire for my car to handle properly), I think this is more than reasonable.

One of the best shops I´ve ever been to was a shop owned by a Russian father and son team, both qualified car mechanics, AFAIK the dad having a university degree in car engineering as well (he is also a former Soviet Airforce fighter pilot).
They are oldstyle mechanics, if necessary they use their own machine shop to make special tools and they do all jobs from changing brake pads to bigtime body work. Almost all equipment in their shop they built themselves to high quality. And they demand very civilised prices.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 33):
As for parts prices, I am familiar with OEM vs OE components. I typically use OEM components as I do most vehicle maintenance myself. I will occasionally pay the dealer premium (and OE parts by necessity) for incidental maintenance items if my car is in the shop for a procedure that I cannot or will not accomplish.

One nice aspect of driving a BMW is the extent to which 3rd parties cater to enthusaists with "improved" replacement parts. This doesn't necessarily refer to something like my Koni suspension package (which is geared toward a performance increase but requires civility tradeoffs) but includes common wear items of superior durability/cost as well.

Same for my old Land Rover Defender. There have been so many built for e.g. the military, disaster relief organisations of farmers that parts are readily available and cheap. And the technology is really farm tractor technology. The only problem is that about all chassis parts are big and heavy, so you´ll need a lift in most cases and some hands to help. I´m lucky now that across the street there is a small, independent shop, where I can rent a lift, if necessary and where the owner lets me work on my own (a few weeks ago I replaced the complete rear axle because the differential gear had way too much play, next will be the distribution gearbox and the front differential, The truck has about 300.000 km on the clock and the first 100.000 were extensively through African bush and desert).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aero145
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
yet manuals still often go faster

Yep, that’s the problem. DSG shifts fast like a blister but the car is sloppier than a manual. Just my opinion on one of the most common versions of the DSG transmission - that with the 2-Litre VW AG Turbodiesels. I love the shifting, but hate the sloppiness, especially when driving off. It takes ages to go, and if one is impatient the car jumps off, and from the outside it looks like someone who just started driving stick.  Wink So, I’d either choose stick or very good automatics. Audi’s Tiptronic is pretty good imo.
 
N1120A
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:29 pm



Quoting Molykote (Reply 34):
What vehicles? Though I'll be the first to admit that the classic 3 pedal arrangement brings more joy to the driving process, I haven't seen a conventional maual (at least with identical gea ratios) out perform a sequential or double clutch.

A key example I remember is the road tests of the aforementioned E46 M3, where the manual and the SMG were tested. The SMG was supposed to shift in half the time of the Ferrari F1 gearbox, yet the manual did 0-60 and the quarter mile faster.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):

My father still wants to have a clutch job done though to make it a bit less hard

You can have the clutch adjusted to deal with that. A new clutch will often make the clutch harder to press in.

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 38):
Audi’s Tiptronic is pretty good imo.

That's because Porsche developed it. That said, anytime I see a 911 with an automatic transmission, I want to find the owner and scream at them.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Cadet57
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:44 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 32):
Not to mention there's no proper paddle shifters

Which is a shame, because you can get them in europe.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
That said, anytime I see a 911 with an automatic transmission, I want to find the owner and scream at them.

When I was buying my VW, the dealership "misplaced" my car, they unloaded it and it got lose in the shuffle, so my salesman and I were walking around the lot looking for it (literally) when we walked thru the detail shop, where there was a brand new 911, GT iirc. $156,900. Options included hand stitched seats and a Tiptronic. I was appalled. for almost 160k for a car, just learn how to bloody drive a stick.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
aero145
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:53 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
That's because Porsche developed it.

That’s fine - I’d rather drive an Audi with a very good Porsche auto tranny than an Audi with a bit worse Audi auto tranny.  biggrin 

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 40):
I was appalled. for almost 160k for a car, just learn how to bloody drive a stick.

 bigthumbsup  Hear hear! Although this sentence doesn’t make sense, I agree with it.
 
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LTU932
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:22 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
You can have the clutch adjusted to deal with that. A new clutch will often make the clutch harder to press in.

I used the term "clutch job" very loosely. What you propose is exactly what my father wants, but like I said, I'm talking him out of it because IMO the clutch doesn't need any adjustment. Its action is perfect, it doesn't have too much pedal travel beyond the disengagement point, you just have to have the driver's seat properly adjusted, otherwise when you use the clutch, it can make the engine almost "bounce" a bit.
 
N1120A
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:37 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 42):
you just have to have the driver's seat properly adjusted,

I agree. Most people don't set their car's seat right, and that is where the problems start. It is amazing how a simple change can make all the difference.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Molykote
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
Same for my old Land Rover Defender. There have been so many built for e.g. the military, disaster relief organisations of farmers that parts are readily available and cheap. And the technology is really farm tractor technology. The only problem is that about all chassis parts are big and heavy, so you´ll need a lift in most cases and some hands to help. I´m lucky now that across the street there is a small, independent shop, where I can rent a lift, if necessary and where the owner lets me work on my own (a few weeks ago I replaced the complete rear axle because the differential gear had way too much play, next will be the distribution gearbox and the front differential, The truck has about 300.000 km on the clock and the first 100.000 were extensively through African bush and desert).

Such great vehicles (as illustrated by ebay resale values).

I did an off road tour with my now fiance in 2006. This was my only opportunity to drive a Defender. 190,000km on the odometer and still ran more than adequately - even in the off road environment.

Ironically, the husband of a couple sharing our vehicle had recently left Ford after a 15 year carrer stint (most recently serving as a finance director). A nice guy but obviously not a history buff as he wouldn't shut up about the vehicle and its Ford association  Yeah sure

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 42):
it doesn't have too much pedal travel beyond the disengagement point, you just have to have the driver's seat properly adjusted, otherwise when you use the clutch, it can make the engine almost "bounce" a bit.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
I agree. Most people don't set their car's seat right, and that is where the problems start. It is amazing how a simple change can make all the difference.

A bit of a rant here but this is always why I preferred a telescoping steering wheel to a tilt wheel (at least in the days when many wheels had 0 or 1 degrees of adjustability).

The Germans tended to use a telescoping model (E34 5 series comes to mind most readily) while the Japanese seemed to produce the tilt variety. I found the telescoping wheel to promote a better driving position so long as the seat could adjust for height and had adequate fore-aft travel. This allows for good articulation of the pedals while maintaining a proper seating position relative to the steering wheel.

The telescoping adjustment would also promote a constant line of sight to the gauges and theoretically promote selection of a "best" driving position as determined by the manufacturer (at least if the rest of the cockpit was adequately adjustable).
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
N1120A
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:39 pm



Quoting Molykote (Reply 44):
A bit of a rant here but this is always why I preferred a telescoping steering wheel to a tilt wheel (at least in the days when many wheels had 0 or 1 degrees of adjustability).

The Germans tended to use a telescoping model (E34 5 series comes to mind most readily) while the Japanese seemed to produce the tilt variety. I found the telescoping wheel to promote a better driving position so long as the seat could adjust for height and had adequate fore-aft travel. This allows for good articulation of the pedals while maintaining a proper seating position relative to the steering wheel.

Telescoping wheels are great, but not really necessary if you have a seat with more than the standard movement. For example, my E36 M3's wheel doesn't move at all. The seat, however, has a multitude of adjustments that allow for a perfect position everytime.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:10 pm



Quoting Molykote (Reply 44):
A bit of a rant here but this is always why I preferred a telescoping steering wheel to a tilt wheel

My VW, and all current ones as well have a tilt/telescopic wheel. Its awesome.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Molykote
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:27 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
Telescoping wheels are great, but not really necessary if you have a seat with more than the standard movement. For example, my E36 M3's wheel doesn't move at all. The seat, however, has a multitude of adjustments that allow for a perfect position everytime.

I love the E36 seating position and seats (I'm looking for a used E36 pax seat in good condition to make an office chair). In that car I found that the steering wheel adjustment wasn't necessary. However, an adjustable seat doesn't address the steering wheel/pedal relationship.

My NB (2nd gen) Miata steering wheel doesn't adjust, nor does the seat for height. Without going into too many reasons why Mazda may have done this, it does make things akward for some drivers (including me at times). I can operate the vehicle just fine for 90 minutes but, it's evident that certain aspects of the geometry aren't correct on longer drives (at least for my frame). Part of it may be 12.5 EEE feet in a narrow foot well, which forces akward leg arrangements in some conditions.

During a highway cruise, I often won't use the dead pedal and will set my left foot on the floor. In the Miata this isn't possible because my knee can't fit between the steering wheel and door. This, combined with a narrow footwell (though I've seen worse) and a low differential between pedal and seat heights, puts me in a slightly akward seating position with decreased lower back support. Some people, though it isn't a problem for everyone, get around this by augmenting the seat padding. A bigger annoyance is having to lean toward the center of the car so that I can shut the door  Smile - Still, I've seen worse ingress/egress...

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Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 46):
My VW, and all current ones as well have a tilt/telescopic wheel. Its awesome.

Yeah - something I tried to address, perhaps inadequately, when I noted "the days of 0 or 1 degrees of adjustment". My E46 adjusts in both directions (I think! - I probably haven't adjusted it in over a year). I think most modern vehicles I've seen allow for tilt and telescoping adjustments.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
N1120A
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:35 am



Quoting Molykote (Reply 47):
Without going into too many reasons why Mazda may have done this

I can. They don't expect you to be resting your feet often.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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LTU932
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RE: My Clutch Is Done.

Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:02 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 48):
I can. They don't expect you to be resting your feet often.

In our Spectra, I've asked my father many times to raise the steering wheel (which makes it easier for him, as he lost some mobility because of his hip injury, and easier for me because of my frame), but he just won't do it. Also, he never rests his foot, he always has it on the clutch (though never pressing it unnecessarily). It's a habit he's had for years and which I never adopted.

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