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Aaron747
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EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:38 pm

Things are accelerating amid rumors that there are preparations afoot in several diplomatic arenas for recognition of an official Palestinian state. The Israeli government is, unsurprisingly, not enthused by a draft EU proposal to officially recognize East Jerusalem as a capital for a possible (improbable?) Palestinian state.

EU foreign ministers are expected to issue an official call next week for Jerusalem to be divided, in order to serve as the capitals of both Israel and a Palestinian state.

...

"The process being led by Sweden harms the European Union's ability to take part as a significant mediator in the political process between Israel and the Palestinians," said a statement by Israel's Foreign Ministry.


There's a bit of spite in Israel's statements to Sweden since they've been trading barbs in the media the last few months over various unflattering criticisms from Stockholm regarding Gaza and other things that are, on balance, rather one-sided.

At the same time it's necessary and proper for foreign governments to be questioning Netanyahu's commitment to a two-state solution when the settlement freeze is ongoing at a glacial pace since that disrupts the peace process at least as much as any EU proposal!

Britain and France support the Swedish position, while Germany, Spain and Italy are disinclined to side with Israel on the matter

This is having the knock-on effect of stirring the usual passions in the Knesset, as now Livni and other opposition party members are expressing growing dissatisfaction with the acceleration in loss of foreign support for Israel in recent months. Should get interesting as they try to play the blame game that will run to the next election while stuff is hitting the fan on all fronts.

What's bothersome about this, for all the paces it is putting Israel's foreign ministry through, is that it's a waste of time. This exercise seems purely political as a way for the EU to balance its diplomatic strength with that of the US and UN. There is not an official Palestinian state as of yet, there is hardly any unity to speak of within the PA, and despite the rumors going around, we're still a long way from seeing a real functioning Palestinian government established. Until those things change, it's pointless to go on scoring political points by making these draft resolutions that mean absolutely nothing other than pissing off the Likud.

The Israeli government will look foolish for the tantrums it will throw over this, and the EU already looks foolish for even scheduling meetings and drafting this nonsense in the first place. Really making progress folks.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1131926.html
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Kiwirob
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:46 pm

I applaud the EU for (hopefully) stepping up and making a courageous decision, someone has to, it's pretty clear the US hasn't got the balls to do it. Personally I would rather see EU soldiers forcibly removing the Israeli's from Palestinian territory than pissing about in Afghanistan.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:12 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
I would rather see EU soldiers forcibly removing the Israeli's from Palestinian territory

I have to ask - how do you suppose you'd see the Israeli Army permit EU soldiers to do this?
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Kiwirob
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:22 pm

Israel (I would hope) would not be stupid enough to get in to a shooting war with the EU. Failing that I believe sanctions like those imposed on South Africa should be placed on Israel, it's now time for the rest of the world to stop pissing around with these people and sort this problem out.
 
sbworcs
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:07 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
"The process being led by Sweden harms the European Union's ability to take part as a significant mediator in the political process between Israel and the Palestinians," said a statement by Israel's Foreign Ministry.

So then Israel being Israel and stating that unless it is our point of view then it is damaging.

Althought he Palestinian side is just a bad!
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directorguy
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:32 pm

Interesting to see some fresh blood taking in the entire process-Obama's intentions-while in the right place-had little effect. Israel has not stopped a freeze, and ideally, a sovereign Palestinian state would rule the West Bank-unlikely, with all those new homes being built.
Perhaps the EU could use political leverage and somehow achieve what the USA could not do?
Regarding the division of JRS-that can wait. Both parties have a habit of making concessions, then asking for the moon, then going back to square one.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:53 pm



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 5):
Israel has not stopped a freeze, and ideally, a sovereign Palestinian state would rule the West Bank-unlikely, with all those new homes being built.

Fully agree but the component that remains unlikely is a state in the first place - they are simply not ready to do it politically. And even if a state were created tomorrow, do you really think those rabid settlers are going to leave voluntarily? They are fighting with the IDF as we speak (not that they're trying very hard to enforce the freeze).

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 5):
Perhaps the EU could use political leverage and somehow achieve what the USA could not do?

I still say they are just looking to score points and appear more relevant. We'll see if this silly resolution yields any effect other than promoting more infighting in the Knesset.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
Personally I would rather see EU soldiers forcibly removing the Israeli's from Palestinian territory than pissing about in Afghanistan.

Hilariously implausible.
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NAV20
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:41 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
I believe sanctions like those imposed on South Africa should be placed on Israel, it's now time for the rest of the world to stop pissing around with these people and sort this problem out.

Agree entirely, KiwiRob. Israel (that is, to all intents and purposes, the 'militant wing' of the Jewish religion) has no right whatever to exclusive possession even of most of Palestine, leave alone Jerusalem. In 1947 the United Nations approved only the setting up of federated Arab and Jewish states, with Jerusalem being an open city under international control.

As to any 'religious claim,' the whole nonsense of a 'Jewish state' is in any case based on nothing but a few fragments of anonymous, much-translated, much-'interpreted' (and in any case highly improbable) folklore in the Old Testament.

Hoping against hope that the EU does 'carry through' on this and impose sanctions. And that Obama loses patience too, and stops both the money and the weapons.
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TheCol
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:43 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Hilariously implausible.

 checkmark 

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):

So what about Hamas and the militias that want to destroy Israel? Do you think they're gonna disappear?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
PanHAM
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:08 am



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):

I have to ask - how do you suppose you'd see the Israeli Army permit EU soldiers to do this?



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
uoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
Personally I would rather see EU soldiers forcibly removing the Israeli's from Palestinian territory than pissing about in Afghanistan.

Hilariously implausible.

The EU does not have soldiers.

Even if the EU had an armed force, would anybody seriously think that the EU takes military action against a sovereign democratic state?
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:27 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
So what about Hamas and the militias that want to destroy Israel? Do you think they're gonna disappear?

One has to have to try to see things from the other guy's point of view, TheCol. The best way of doing that is to put yourself in their place.

Had I been born in Palestine, I would have been eight years old when my family was driven out of our home. We'd probably have lived ever since then as refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, or Syria.

If I'd got married and raised a family, as I did, my kids would have had no chance of securing a proper education or being able to embark on the careers they now have. Nor would I ever have been able to give them the sort of home that I was fortunate enough to be able to provide.

OR we might still be in 'Palestine' - living in a poverty-stricken township in the West Bank, unable even to visit a neighbouring town without going through Israeli Army checkpoints. Or, worse still, living in what amounts to a concentration camp, the Gaza Strip - totally cut off from the outside world, so that even if they'd been bright enough to earn a scholarship to Cambridge or Harvard (as some Gazan kids do), they'd never have been allowed to travel outside Gaza to take it up. And would therefore have to stay there and rot until the NEXT time the Israeli Army and Air Force come visiting with (US-supplied) HE and white phosphorus.

What's more, I'd never have been able to explain to them WHY all those ills had befallen them. WHY one of the first acts of the newly-formed United Nations was to give some hundreds of thousands of European refugees (created by the misdeeds of the Germans, the Italians, the Vichy French, and others) rights of residence in OUR country - an occupation which was then encouraged and expanded by no less than the then President of the United States, purely because he had an election to win. And that as a result, ever since, the family has never been able to return to its homeland - even as tourists........

And, even if I'd come to love and revere the United States, as I do, I'd never have been able to explain to them how one could possibly square what had happened to us (which continues blindly to be supported by the USA) with lofty statements of principle like:-

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Your turn now. If you met a kid from the Gaza Strip or the West Bank - like that girl who was arrested at dead of night in the West Bank a couple of months ago, driven to Gaza in an Army truck, and told that she couldn't ever come back to the West Bank to take her university finals because her identity card said she was from Gaza - how would YOU explain their ever-mounting misfortunes to them?

[Edited 2009-12-03 03:38:49]
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gatorfan
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:59 pm

The plan is surprisingly similar to one laid out by Tom Clancy in one of his novels.
 
directorguy
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:13 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Fully agree but the component that remains unlikely is a state in the first place - they are simply not ready to do it politically. And even if a state were created tomorrow, do you really think those rabid settlers are going to leave voluntarily? They are fighting with the IDF as we speak (not that they're trying very hard to enforce the freeze).

Yup. There were a few thousand Israeli settlers in the Sinai-mostly in Yamit-and there was strong opposition to making them leave. Can you imagine the gumption, and sheer scale, of dragging out hundreds of thousands of Israelis out of the WB? Even if they all somehow left, it would cost billions to re-accomodate them elsewhere.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:12 am



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 12):
Yup. There were a few thousand Israeli settlers in the Sinai-mostly in Yamit-and there was strong opposition to making them leave. Can you imagine the gumption, and sheer scale, of dragging out hundreds of thousands of Israelis out of the WB? Even if they all somehow left, it would cost billions to re-accomodate them elsewhere.

I guess it's also got to do with out of control immigration to Israel. AFAIK most Jews apparently have the right to adopt the Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. They can even get it when first entering Israel as far as I understood this correctly. This could be one of the factors for this immigration going out of control.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:38 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
AFAIK most Jews apparently have the right to adopt the Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.

Yes - immediate entry and citizenship, LTU932. As I understand it, they don't even have to be devout, or even practising; they count as 'Jewish' if they have a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother:-

"The law gives the right of return to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations—not secular—though Reform and Conservative conversions must take place outside the state, similar to civil marriages)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

It's ironic that Hitler's gang used exactly the same definition to 'populate' the concentration camps.......  

On the other hand, though, a Palestinian who marries an Israeli citizen cannot get entry under any circumstances. The Israeli husband/wife has to give up their Israeli citizenship and move out. I don't know of any other country in the world that has an immigration (or, rather, NON-immigration) policy like that.

There used to be a catch, though. Don't know if it still applies. Some Jewish friends of mine went to Israel in the 60s, but saw it as a 'trial run'; they thought they'd live there for a year or two to see what it was like, and so they kept their house in the UK and just rented it out.

They were back inside 18 months - the Israeli goverrnment told them that they would not be granted entry to "Israel proper' until they sold their house and 'invested' the proceeds in Israeli property. So they spent all their time there behind barbed wire in a guarded 'settlement' in the Gaza Strip, with their kids being 'bussed' to school every day in an Army truck with an armed escort.

That sort of thing is why the 'settlements' issue will likely never be resolved (until Obama or some later president really starts 'leaning on' the Israeli Government, and also gets the moneybags out). From 1948 on, Israel followed a policy of nationalising all 'seized' (i.e. stolen) land. They didn't then 'give' it to Israelis; nor did they sell it freehold. They sold only leasehold interests in existing properties and building leases for development land.

Significantly, the same process occurred when further stolen land in areas like the Shebaa Farms and the Golan Heights was disposed of for development; and of course in Jerusalem.

So I see no practical possibility that the Israeli government will ever willingly give any of the stolen land back. It would face absolutely colossal compensation bills from the half-million or so people living in the 'official' settlements; and, given that giving the land back would amount to an admission that the land was wrongfully taken from its original Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian owners in the first place, one doubts that even the Israeli courts could deny compensation claims for 'unlawful dispossession' from them as well.

Talk about a 'comedy of errors;' although 'tragi-comedy' would probably be a better word.

[Edited 2009-12-03 21:43:18]
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gkirk
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:08 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
Israel (I would hope) would not be stupid enough to get in to a shooting war with the EU. Failing that I believe sanctions like those imposed on South Africa should be placed on Israel, it's now time for the rest of the world to stop pissing around with these people and sort this problem out.

The only way you'll ever see peace in that area of the world is by doing this:
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falstaff
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:44 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15):
The only way you'll ever see peace in that area of the world is by doing this

I would agree.

If the EU recognizes two Jerusalems you have handed the Jihadists a victory. They will be empowered by this and continue to demand more until Isreal is no more. When Isreal is gone they will take the UK and France, not by fighting but by numbers and with those numbers the votes that come with it. One day the "tollerant" people of the EU will wake up to find they live in an Islamic Republic and all the freedoms and rights they have will be gone.

You don't get peace by giving the enemy land. Remember WWII? Give Hitler land to preserve the peace..... Didn't work then and it won't work now.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
would anybody seriously think that the EU takes military action against a sovereign democratic state?

One day that may happen, if radical Islam is allowed to grow unchecked in the EU.
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NAV20
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:17 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 16):
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15):
The only way you'll ever see peace in that area of the world is by doing this

I would agree.

Are you guys actually proposing a nuclear war in the Middle East?  Smile

Falstaff - in particular, can you name any major wars that Muslims have started over the last couple of hundred years? Ready to be contradicted, but my own impression is that virtually all wars during the period (and certainly all the biggest and bloodiest ones) have been started by Christians?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Kiwirob
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:32 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 16):
If the EU recognizes two Jerusalems you have handed the Jihadists a victory. They will be empowered by this and continue to demand more until Isreal is no more. When Isreal is gone they will take the UK and France, not by fighting but by numbers and with those numbers the votes that come with it.

Pull the other one it's got bells on it.

Isn't the Israeli Palestinian population increasing at a faster rate than the Jewish population? If that is true then won't the Palestinian citizens eventually be able to take over the country i n a legal election, although I would guess that if it ever got to that point I'm sure the Jews would find a way to disenfranchise the Palestinians.
 
TheCol
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:34 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):

None of that was answer to my question.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Had I been born in Palestine,

How much time have you actually spent in the occupied territories?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
how would YOU explain their ever-mounting misfortunes to them?

I have, and will continue to explain to them that the only thing standing in their way of full autonomy is Hamas and Co. Some agree, some don't.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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falstaff
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:55 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
have been started by Christians?

WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Rhodesia, The Spanish Civil War, the Chinese Civil War, Russo-Japanese war, Russian Revolution, and a bunch more wars in the 20th Century had little or nothing to do with religion. They may have been started by Christians, but that didn't mean they were about religion. Violence from Islamic radicals is based on religion.

Radical Islam can not start a traditional war, the followers don't usually represent a country or its interests. They represent ideas and a way of life.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Are you guys actually proposing a nuclear war in the Middle East

No, but the only way to have peace in the middle east would be if it was empty. I never will expect peace in the middle east or in Africa in my lifetime.
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NAV20
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:36 am



Quoting TheCol (Reply 19):
I have, and will continue to explain to them that the only thing standing in their way of full autonomy is Hamas and Co.

So they just get rid of Hamas and Hey Presto! - the Israelis rebuild all the Palestinian homes they bulldozed in 1948 - all those millions of refugees are allowed to come home from Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria - the Palestinians get an independent state wiith free access to the outside world, including their own airports and seaports.........

What are you smoking, mate?  Smile
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ly772
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:37 pm

I don't like the name of this topic. Can't you change it to "Hitler Loving Anti-Semetic Nazis Talk About What They Would Like Instead of Israel"?
 
baroque
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:30 pm

LY772, whatever problems you might have look like getting a great deal worse until you remove your spectacles. Israel has tended to do well through realpolitik. WADR not much real or politic in yr post.

[Edited 2009-12-05 06:05:10]
 
ly772
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:46 pm

I never realized how many HItler followers existed in Australia and NZ...shame.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:53 pm



Quoting LY772 (Reply 24):
I never realized how many HItler followers existed in Australia and NZ...shame.

Pay no attention to the rabid Zionist peanut gallery seeing through "all criticism of Israel = Holocaust celebrating anti-Semetic Nazi circle-jerk" tunnel vision.  Yeah sure
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kc135topboom
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:08 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
EU foreign ministers are expected to issue an official call next week for Jerusalem to be divided, in order to serve as the capitals of both Israel and a Palestinian state.

Typical European solution these days, strattle the fence, putting one foot on both sides. This will do nothing but embolden the Palistinian stated goal of "pushing the Jews into the sea".

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
I applaud the EU for (hopefully) stepping up and making a courageous decision, someone has to, it's pretty clear the US hasn't got the balls to do it.

I agree that BHO has not got the balls to step up. But, it has been the US, from Carter to Bush 43 who have worked on this. Where has the roadblock to peace been? It is not on the Israeli side.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
Personally I would rather see EU soldiers forcibly removing the Israeli's from Palestinian territory than pissing about in Afghanistan.

Of course. Don't fight the terrorists, fight the Israelis. The French Soldiers need to bring plenty of white flags.  whiteflag   white   whiteflag   white 

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
Israel (I would hope) would not be stupid enough to get in to a shooting war with the EU.

Wouldn't you mean the other way around? Wouldn't the EU Soldiers be "invaders" and the Israeli be the "defenders"?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
Failing that I believe sanctions like those imposed on South Africa should be placed on Israel, it's now time for the rest of the world to stop pissing around with these people and sort this problem out.

That will work up to the moment Israel places a weapons order with France.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
As to any 'religious claim,' the whole nonsense of a 'Jewish state' is in any case based on nothing but a few fragments of anonymous, much-translated, much-'interpreted' (and in any case highly improbable) folklore in the Old Testament

Oh. I see, then the Koran must be "factual" in its claim to Jerusalem?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Hoping against hope that the EU does 'carry through' on this and impose sanctions. And that Obama loses patience too, and stops both the money and the weapons.

Keep hoping. Obama will not stop ine cent, there are to many US Jews who vote.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Had I been born in Palestine, I would have been eight years old when my family was driven out of our home. We'd probably have lived ever since then as refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, or Syria.

Have you ever noticed how the Arabs have never stepped up to give the Palistinians some place to live, other than some desert? Have you ever noticed some Arab states will not allow entry into their country by Palistinians, but do let Israelis in for tourism, business, and diplomacy?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
On the other hand, though, a Palestinian who marries an Israeli citizen cannot get entry under any circumstances. The Israeli husband/wife has to give up their Israeli citizenship and move out. I don't know of any other country in the world that has an immigration (or, rather, NON-immigration) policy like that.

Iran, Saudia Arabia, Lebanon, Yeman, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, and many others. Do you see some kind of trend here? (HINT; Islam)

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Falstaff - in particular, can you name any major wars that Muslims have started over the last couple of hundred years?

Iran/Iraq, Global War on Terrorism, Yom-Kippur, Wars over Kasmir (Pakistan/India), 1947 Israeli/Arab war, Kosovo, various genercide wars in Africa. These are just in the last 65 years, shall I go on?

Splitting Jerusalem is going to do nothing but continue the conflicts between the Plaistinians and Jews.

I say move all the palistanians onto the boader between Iran and Afghanistan.
 
baroque
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:11 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
to the rabid Zionist peanut gallery

True, to which can be added "intemperate". But even that would still be a low key response. Wonder what a response would look like at the same level. The last para of your opening post was all too prescient it seems, Aaron.
 
NAV20
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:40 pm

Quoting LY772 (Reply 24):
I never realized how many HItler followers existed in Australia and NZ...shame.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
Pay no attention to the rabid Zionist peanut gallery seeing through "all criticism of Israel = Holocaust celebrating anti-Semetic Nazi circle-jerk" tunnel vision.

I don't pay undue attention to it, Aaron747 - but it does tend to give me the odd 'senior moment' lately.  

LY772, just about my earliest memory is of sitting in our air-raid shelter listening to Hitler's Luftwaffe doing their best to bomb the daylights out of our peaceful Hertfordshire village. I'm sure that Baroque has similar recollections.

Thankfully, on the OTHER hand, the very best toy I ever had during the War was a beautifully-carved and painted little circus roundabout, completely fascinating because when you twisted it, the little horses and riders used to go up and down, just like the real circus thing (not that I even knew what a circus was at the time).

The village had a prison camp on its outskirts and we used to see the German and Italian prisoners digging the roads, filling in bomb craters, and cutting the hedges on our way to nursery school. One day, as we passed a group of them (Germans, still proudly wearing their thin khaki-drill Afrika Korps uniforms in the freezing English winter) one guy just stopped working, said something I didn't understand, and then just handed me that marvellous toy (which he must have spent many hours making), patted me on the head, and went back to work.........

So I don't see how you can blame me for reckoning that wars (and especially religious wars) are a waste of time and money at best, and plain bloody murder at worst.

NOR - I hope - can you blame me for having the utmost sympathy for the utterly-innocent Palestinian kids in Gaza who went through the same sort of experience that Baroque and I did just a few months ago (except, of course, that we were only subjected to HE bombs, not white phosphorus and certainly not close-quarter automatic small-arms fire).

Take my word for it, mate. No war has ever been 'worth it.' Left to themselves, and spared from the influence of politicians and zealots, people all over the world are basically the same.

No nationality or race or religion is intrinsically evil. It's only politicians (from the safety of their bombproof air-raid shelters) who even suggest that they are.........

Please try to grow up a bit.........

[Edited 2009-12-05 07:36:27]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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falstaff
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:34 pm



Quoting LY772 (Reply 24):
I never realized how many HItler followers existed in Australia and NZ...shame.

What I think is you have a lot of people who hate organized Christianity and since Jews and and Christians believe many of the same things they just get lumped into the hatred. A lot of people look at the "wrongs" that the church has done and want to hate the church. They have become brainwashed in the concepts of political correctness and don't view Islam as what it is, a religion. Many of these people see Muslims as a minority group in their country and will go out of their way not to oppress or make them mad. If churches or synagogues in their towns were preaching hate they would be up in arms, but when the Mosque does it they just say "I don't want to judge or opress those minorities. I ask them what they will say when the Muslims are the majority? There are too many people in the world that will give Islam a free pass to do whatever it wants but will bad mouth Jews and Christians every chance they get.

It amazes me how many people think the problem of Islamic radicals will just go away if there was no Israel. If Israel were to go away it would just make problems worse. Too many people want to think that the Jihadists are just a noisy minority that will just go away if we just valued their differences. Valueing differences is a two way street. They are not some kind of problem you can talk under the rug. They are at war with the world. Too many people also think that the problem is the USA's involvement in Israel. The Islamic Jihadists in killing people in Nigeria, Indonesia, Russia, China, Philippines, and Sudan, have nothing to do with the USA and Israel. They are Muslims who can not get a long with their neighbors. There was an article in October's National Geographic about Islam in Indonesia. On some Islands you have Islamic "police" terrorizing citizens into conformity. That has nothing to do with Israel or the USA.




These photos are from the Daily Mail....
Where is the outrage from the world? If these people were KKK on the streets of Toledo, Ohio, there would be (there were) riots, if they were holding signs crying for oppression against gays there would be riots, but when it is Islam you don't want to make anyone upset so you crawl in your box of political correctness. Will these protesters value your rights, your religion, and your values?
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Aaron747
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:46 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
The Islamic Jihadists in killing people in Nigeria, Indonesia, Russia, China, Philippines, and Sudan, have nothing to do with the USA and Israel. They are Muslims who can not get a long with their neighbors. There was an article in October's National Geographic about Islam in Indonesia. On some Islands you have Islamic "police" terrorizing citizens into conformity. That has nothing to do with Israel or the USA.

All true - but what exactly does it have to do with this thread?

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
They have become brainwashed in the concepts of political correctness and don't view Islam as what it is, a religion

Yes PC sucks, but pragmatically it's hard to equivocate when talking about a billion people. A lot of people are against what organized religion does yet don't lump all Christians into the Sunday-morning evangelism circuit variety of things. Respect for one's fellow man usually accomplishes that kind of level-headed outlook.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
What I think is you have a lot of people who hate organized Christianity and since Jews and and Christians believe many of the same things they just get lumped into the hatred. A lot of people look at the "wrongs" that the church has done and want to hate the church

True...but it doesn't change the fact that radical Zionism is, in of itself, a perversion of a great religion. The settlers throwing rocks at their own army and previously assassinating their own leaders by no means represent mainstream or even normative Judaism.
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:51 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
What I think is you have a lot of people who hate organized Christianity and since Jews and and Christians believe many of the same things they just get lumped into the hatred. A lot of people look at the "wrongs" that the church has done and want to hate the church. They have become brainwashed in the concepts of political correctness and don't view Islam as what it is, a religion. Many of these people see Muslims as a minority group in their country and will go out of their way not to oppress or make them mad. If churches or synagogues in their towns were preaching hate they would be up in arms, but when the Mosque does it they just say "I don't want to judge or opress those minorities. I ask them what they will say when the Muslims are the majority? There are too many people in the world that will give Islam a free pass to do whatever it wants but will bad mouth Jews and Christians every chance they get.

So your solution is to write a lengthy post that pretty much expresses mild hatred toward Islam? All religions, when followed verbatim, are disgusting things that the modern world would be better off without. The religions that you cry are being targeted are considered acceptable because they have been so bastardized by time that they "fit" into our society. F

Frankly, I have a tough time respecting any religious state--Israel or otherwise. Good ole fashioned secularism seems to work best.
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:52 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 30):
True...but it doesn't change the fact that radical Zionism is, in of itself, a perversion of a great religion. The settlers throwing rocks at their own army and previously assassinating their own leaders by no means represent mainstream or even normative Judaism.

I couldn't agree more. I also get mad at fellow Christians that forget the Church is a place for sinners not a hotel for saints and hate the sin love the sinner.
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:08 pm



Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
Frankly, I have a tough time respecting any religious state--Israel or otherwise.

For the record, Israel is only a semi-religious state. The court system is comprised of both secular and religious branches and the operating guidelines of the state are a mixture of Jewish law and English common law - though obviously the Jewish law portion has a heavy influence on important things like repatriation of Jews, rights of non-Jews and the like.

In the absence of an actual Constitution it's a fairly complex system for such a small population.
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:10 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 26):
Iran/Iraq, Global War on Terrorism, Yom-Kippur, Wars over Kasmir (Pakistan/India), 1947 Israeli/Arab war, Kosovo, various genercide wars in Africa. These are just in the last 65 years, shall I go on?

Don't forget Chechnya
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:23 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
On some Islands you have Islamic "police" terrorizing citizens into conformity

You will provide some references I suppose. If referring to Aceh, it is a province not an island. And the process is far from being undisputed.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...ceh-doesn039t-need-sharia-law.html
Saturday's Jkt Post
When the sharia law was forcefully implemented on the Acehnese, the religious establishment announced publicly that it would make Aceh better in many ways. The implementation of sharia law was a plot to win over the support of the religious establishment by the then president Abdurrahman "Gus Dur" Wahid in the struggle against Free Aceh Movement (GAM).

The GAM leadership in Sweden quickly condemned the move of the Indonesian government, arguing sharia law was not what the Acehnese wanted or needed and would add more problems to the already troubled province than it solves. To force the Acehnese in line with this new rule, the religious establishment received a new toy named WH aka sharia police who would work under the responsibility of the newly established Dinas Sharia Islam.
....
In some cases the implementation of sharia law has worsened the situation in Aceh. Any fellow Indonesian Muslim foolish enough to promote the implementation of sharia Islam ala Aceh in Indonesia instead of embracing Pancasila as our state ideology, please take note!

Teuku Agam
Banda Aceh

COMMENT
Rizal al Rolli (not verified), Jakarta --- Thu, 09/03/2009 - 11:11am
Sharia is unIslamic and is driven by uneducated, self-important "leaders" who create it to give them some authority they do not deserve. God judges you on how you follow Him because you choose to obey Him, not how well you obey some ridiculous rules made up by ignorant (always male) fools with beards and silly hats. As always, its primary factor is insecurity - punish people who question the rules or don't comply, so they don't find out the "leaders" are a bunch of hypocrites and liars who know nothing.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:42 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
here was an article in October's National Geographic about Islam in Indonesia. On some Islands you have Islamic "police" terrorizing citizens into conformity.

Either you or the National Geographic who has made a mistake. This law is only applied to only one province, out of 33. And I believe vast majority of Indonesian Muslims don't want the Sharia law applied in other area in Indonesia.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:47 pm



Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
What I think is you have a lot of people who hate organized Christianity and since Jews and and Christians believe many of the same things they just get lumped into the hatred. A lot of people look at the "wrongs" that the church has done and want to hate the church. They have become brainwashed in the concepts of political correctness and don't view Islam as what it is, a religion. Many of these people see Muslims as a minority group in their country and will go out of their way not to oppress or make them mad. If churches or synagogues in their towns were preaching hate they would be up in arms, but when the Mosque does it they just say "I don't want to judge or opress those minorities. I ask them what they will say when the Muslims are the majority? There are too many people in the world that will give Islam a free pass to do whatever it wants but will bad mouth Jews and Christians every chance they get.

So your solution is to write a lengthy post that pretty much expresses mild hatred toward Islam?

How in the world do you get hatred out of stated facts?

Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
All religions, when followed verbatim, are disgusting things that the modern world would be better off without.

Do you include Islam, too, or is it just Christianity and Jeudism? what about the Hindus and Biddists?

Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
The religions that you cry are being targeted are considered acceptable because they have been so bastardized by time that they "fit" into our society.

May God have mercy on your soul.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
Frankly, I have a tough time respecting any religious state--Israel or otherwise. Good ole fashioned secularism seems to work best.

Israel is not a religious state, you can worship any way you like in Israel. But do your comments include Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, Yeman, UAE, Dubai, Egypt, and Kuwait too? Do you see a common link here? They are all Muslum countries. You do not see Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddist countries listed, do you?

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 34):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 26):
Iran/Iraq, Global War on Terrorism, Yom-Kippur, Wars over Kasmir (Pakistan/India), 1947 Israeli/Arab war, Kosovo, various genercide wars in Africa. These are just in the last 65 years, shall I go on?

Don't forget Chechnya

Thanks, there are probibly a few others hanging out there, like the wars in Spain back around 900-1200 AD when Muslims tried to overtake Spain, converting it from m ostly Catholic to Islam.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:18 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
Do you include Islam, too, or is it just Christianity and Jeudism? what about the Hindus and Biddists?

I believe the word 'all' has a very precise definition in the English language. Look it up.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
May God have mercy on your soul.

Again, simple fact. No one really follows any religion to the letter, keeping up all the traditions and rituals of yesteryear. We've either changed the religion or simply follow the parts that have appeal. There's nothing wrong with that; that's just the way it is. To further clarify, I again mean all religions.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
Israel is not a religious state, you can worship any way you like in Israel. But do your comments include Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, Yeman, UAE, Dubai, Egypt, and Kuwait too? Do you see a common link here? They are all Muslum countries. You do not see Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddist countries listed, do you?

Start a thread about Saudi religious laws and you'll find myself repeating a lot of the views I hold here in that thread. I have issue with all of Saudi Arabia's draconian laws, just as much as Israel's Right of Return and obvious preference for one religion. I'm not anti-Israeli so much as anti-religion when it comes to state affairs.

What's much more troubling is that you automatically seem to assume everyone that disagrees with you is some big fan of Islam. I also don't understand why you can bring up Islamic wars from 1000 AD but completely skip over the Crusades.

[Edited 2009-12-06 08:28:51]

[Edited 2009-12-06 08:30:16]
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:35 pm



Quoting N867DA (Reply 38):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
Do you include Islam, too, or is it just Christianity and Jeudism? what about the Hindus and Biddists?

I believe the word 'all' has a very precise definition in the English language. Look it up.

Yes, "ALL" does have a precise definition. But you did not use the word "ALL" in your post in reply #13, which is what I quoted you from.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
Frankly, I have a tough time respecting any religious state--Israel or otherwise. Good ole fashioned secularism seems to work best.

Congradualtions, it also works for most Americans, some 85% of which are practicing or non-practicing Christians.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 38):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
Israel is not a religious state, you can worship any way you like in Israel. But do your comments include Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, Yeman, UAE, Dubai, Egypt, and Kuwait too? Do you see a common link here? They are all Muslum countries. You do not see Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddist countries listed, do you?

Start a thread about Saudi religious laws and you'll find myself repeating a lot of the views I hold here in that thread. I have issue with all of Saudi Arabia's draconian laws, just as much as Israel's Right of Return and obvious preference for one religion. I'm not anti-Israeli so much as anti-religion when it comes to state affairs.

I respect your consistance, but you do not speak for all Americans, many of who have some sort of prayer said before the start of government business. Even the US Congress begins each day with a prayer.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 38):
What's much more troubling is that you automatically seem to assume everyone that disagrees with you is some big fan of Islam.

You don't speak for me either. I never said you are a fan or support Islam. I believe to many people, including you give Islam a free pass. That is something the world will learn to regret someday. Giving a religion a free pass at thje expense of all others will cause a war someday, much bigger that today's GWOT. Millions will be killed, most of them by Muslims.

If we are going to walk all over Christianity and Judism, then we need to also stomp on Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and all other world religions. Being PC will end up killing us.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:34 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
All religions, when followed verbatim, are disgusting things that the modern world would be better off without.

Do you include Islam, too, or is it just Christianity and Jeudism? what about the Hindus and Biddists?



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
Yes, "ALL" does have a precise definition. But you did not use the word "ALL" in your post in reply #13, which is what I quoted you from.

I'm pretty sure I said all in reply 31.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
Congradualtions, it also works for most Americans, some 85% of which are practicing or non-practicing Christians.

Oh, absolutely. Believe it or not, I believe in a God--it's just the religion part that I dislike. If people want/need a religion, more power to them. I just don't think it should affect anything any government does. Like letting people of only one faith get guaranteed citizenship or forcing one religion on every person in the entire country.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
I respect your consistance, but you do not speak for all Americans, many of who have some sort of prayer said before the start of government business. Even the US Congress begins each day with a prayer.

The US Congress does indeed begin with a prayer every day, and the prayer seems to be from a bunch of religions. I don't see the point of this, but as long as that's where the line is drawn there's nothing too terrible about it. I never claim to speak for all Americans; we're simply too diverse a people for any person to do that.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
You don't speak for me either. I never said you are a fan or support Islam. I believe to many people, including you give Islam a free pass. That is something the world will learn to regret someday. Giving a religion a free pass at thje expense of all others will cause a war someday, much bigger that today's GWOT. Millions will be killed, most of them by Muslims.

If we are going to walk all over Christianity and Judism, then we need to also stomp on Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and all other world religions. Being PC will end up killing us.

I don't give Islam a free pass. What's funny is that your words can be interpreted to mean any religion. I don't know if that was intentional.
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baroque
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:22 pm



Quoting N867DA (Reply 40):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
Yes, "ALL" does have a precise definition. But you did not use the word "ALL" in your post in reply #13, which is what I quoted you from.

I'm pretty sure I said all in reply 31.

Can I referee just for the record since experience shows that even the bleeding obvious will never be admitted!!

Quoting N867DA (Reply 31):
All religions, when followed verbatim, are disgusting things that the modern world would be better off without

Hope a Biddist does not get me on my way home. And a plague on the GWAT, great war to assist terrorism. Or should that be a plaque on it?  duck 
 
NAV20
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:11 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
I believe to many people, including you give Islam a free pass. That is something the world will learn to regret someday. Giving a religion a free pass at thje expense of all others will cause a war someday


KC135, religions have been causing wars for thousands of years - and there's scarcely a war in history in which it has not played a significant part.

I mentioned earlier that some of my 'best friends' when I was a small kid were German prisoners, because they made little toys for us in their spare time? As it happened, pretty well the first words I ever learned to write were 'Gott Mit Uns' - 'God Is With Us' - for the simple reason that all German soldiers had that engraved on their belt-buckles; and, the size we kids were at the time, that bit of their equipment was the first thing we noticed about the German prisoners we saw!

My father never stopped pulling my leg (the last time at my 21st, birthday party, bugger 'im  ) about the earnest letter that he received from the Mother Superior of my Catholic nursery school saying that she suspected that I had been 'got at' by some 'German sympathisers,' because I'd drawn that motto in my exercise book!

And do I have to remind you how big a part religion played in the American Civil War - during which un-numbered people marched off to war singing, "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord" and "Glory, glory Hallelujah! His Truth is marching on"?

Religion has always been one of the levers that the propagandists pull.

So if you want me to condemn the 'mad mullahs' who keep popping up mouthing hatred in the Middle East, happy to oblige. They stink!

But so, I'm afraid, do all the rabbis (and, still worse, the politicians) who keep filling people up with all this awful (and equally lethal) garbage about the 'Promised Land.'

[Edited 2009-12-08 06:18:48]
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:01 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 39):
I believe to many people, including you give Islam a free pass. That is something the world will learn to regret someday. Giving a religion a free pass at thje expense of all others will cause a war someday


KC135, religions have been causing wars for thousands of years - and there's scarcely a war in history in which it has not played a significant part.

Yes, that is true, and it includes the current GWOT, which was started by extremists Muslums. Christians did not start this war.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:58 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
it includes the current GWOT, which was started by extremists Muslums. Christians did not start this war.

KC135, taking 'GWOT' to mean 'Great War On Terror,' in my opinion that is not a war at all.

Back in the '50s and '60s the British had to get involved in a number of 'colonial brushfires' like Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus, and even Northern Ireland. They wisely used the term 'emergency,' rather than 'war,' to describe situations of that sort. This had important implications as, in legal terms, it left the initiative (and much of the legal responsibility) with the Foreign and Colonial Office and the local police, rather than the War Office.

They didn't invade China, the USSR, Turkey, or the Republic of Ireland respectively - even though those countries and others were providing tacit (and sometimes even open) support to the various groups of what are now known as 'insurgents.' They certainly didn't attack the United States over Northern Ireland, either - even though the PIRA got a helluva lot of support from there!  Smile A good friend of mine (who lived for horses) lost most of the use of a leg and had to leave the Army (Household Cavalry) after being hit by three rounds from an M60 machinegun fired from across the Irish border (at a time when you couldn't legally buy an M60 even in the United States).

By contrast, within three days of 9/11, Bush DID decide both to back the Northern Alliance to take over Afghanistan and to start planning an attack on Iraq, It's already pretty clear that he used 9/11 as an excuse to indulge longterm ambitions to embarrass Russia and pay Saddam Hussein out for failing to win the (US-inspired) Iraq/Iran war and grab the Iranian oilfields.

So 'we' did actually start the military side of the 'GWOT' - as is now becoming clear as Tony Blair tries to squirm his way through the judicial enquiry now in progress in the UK.

I don't think even 'yer av'rage Muslim' sees it as a religious war. Time and again I'm irresistibly reminded of the late Shelby Foote's masterly tale about the Union officer who asked a Confederate prisoner in Georgia why, since he didn't even own any land, still less any slaves, he was fighting. The guy just replied, "Because yore down heah!"

Ever since 1948 the West, led by the United States, has given unlimited support to Israel (including vast quantities of weaponry) to enable it unceasingly to attack its neighbours and grab all the best land. Not content with that, we have ourselves repeatedly used any excuse to carry out 'all-arms' attacks on one Muslim country after another.

I can't blame the Muslim 'man in the street' for feeling that the West is just plain 'out to get them.'
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baroque
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:13 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 44):
I can't blame the Muslim 'man in the street' for feeling that the West is just plain 'out to get them.'

And just because they are paranoid, it does not mean we are not out to get them!
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:15 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 29):
These photos are from the Daily Mail....
Where is the outrage from the world?

Sorry to dredge up an old post, but did you bother to count the number of people in that photo? The posters they're holding obscure the view a bit, but it looks like there are about 30 or so pro-Sharia protesters. Nothing to be worried about; I think Fred Phelps gets more people at some of his protests.

Also note the rather bored looking white folks in the background...
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TheCol
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:13 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):
the Israelis rebuild all the Palestinian homes they bulldozed in 1948

If the Palestinians want to re-build, they will have to do it themselves. It's the only way they'll learn how to function as a nation. All anybody else can do is get them started.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):
all those millions of refugees are allowed to come home from Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria

That really isn't up to Israel. Last time I checked, those refugees are subjected to the same kind of rule in those countries as well. Of course you conveniently sweep that issue under the rug.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):
Palestinians get an independent state

I doubt Israel would have a choice in the matter at that point.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 44):
to enable it unceasingly to attack its neighbours and grab all the best land.

Sorry, which war was that? 1948? 1967? or 1973?

Would you have preferred it if Israel lost those wars, and the Jews massacred?

BTW, these questions still go unanswered.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 19):
How much time have you actually spent in the occupied territories?



Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
So what about Hamas and the militias that want to destroy Israel? Do you think they're gonna disappear?

No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:07 am

Apparently this silly idea is a "no go" after all...


However an earlier proposal by the Swedish EU presidency, to explicitly support the idea of east Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state, was dropped by the foreign ministers.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20091208...lem-future-capital-of-3cd7efd.html
 
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RE: EU Plan To Recognize Two Jerusalems?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:09 am



Quoting TheCol (Reply 47):
Would you have preferred it if Israel lost those wars, and the Jews massacred?

Thats the natural thing to say, for example thats like someone of African-american heritage in the US using slavery as a reason of why they deserve more or should get more.

Bottom line-they annexed and killed people for no reason at all during the occupation which began in the 1940's and continue to this day in the settlements.

Then we as americans blame Arabs for terrorist attacks, we stabbed ourselves basically by having given more than 60 billion USD since the 1940s which paid for weapons/equipment against the defenseless Palestinians. By supporting a nation like this we should never even mention god in our pledge of allegiance. God doesn't want us to take land and help in any way a country thats trying to committ ethnic cleansing and make people leave the country.If you look at Apartheid in SA it was heaven in comparison to settlements.
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