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Dreadnought
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Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:09 pm

For months we've been hearing how he's had triple the death threats and so forth. Anyone remember who/where that information came from?

You compare:

http://www.examiner.com/x-9372-Feder...reats-against-Obama-up-400-percent

Quote:
With the spike in death threats against the current resident of the White House (up an alarming 400 percent compared with when Bush II was in office) and the rise in hate groups across the United States since this president took office,

with this:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennt...eater_than_under_Bush_Clinton.html

Quote:
U.S. Secret Service Director Mark Sullivan dismissed published reports that the level of death threats against President Obama are four times greater than typical threat levels against recent presidents — claiming the current volume of threats is comparable to that under George W. Bush and Bill Clinton.

"It's not [a] 400 percent [increase]," Sullivan said during a heated exchange with Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.), who suggested the service needed additional agents to protect the first African-American president.

"I'm not sure where that number comes from," he said, adding that the number of threats against Obama "are the same level as it has been [against] the last two presidents."

I think we can take the head of the Secret Service as the authoritive source, and say that the story is permenantly and definitively debunked.

The question is, who put the story out, and propagated it to the point that everyone seemed to believe it until yesterday? And why?
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D L X
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:25 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
I think we can take the head of the Secret Service as the authoritive source, and say that the story is permenantly and definitively debunked.

I'm not really sure we can read that into it. It would seem to me that the Secret Service would have good reason (and has in the past iirc) to operate a campaign of misinformation as a means to better secure the president.

I think it would be a better plan to go ask the Examiner and Eleanor Holmes Norton, and MSNBC, and Fox, and CNN what their source is that threats are up.
 
Arrow
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:21 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
I think we can take the head of the Secret Service as the authoritive source, and say that the story is permenantly and definitively debunked.

No you can't. It is not in their interest (or anyone else's, for that matter) for them to be forthright and honest about death threats against any president. Information is power, and I can see them believing that if they confirm a 400% increase there'll be panic in the streets and another 400% increase on top of that. I expect them to lie in the national interest -- it's not like they haven't done it before, and in this case there's probably some sound reasoning behind it.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:28 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
I'm not really sure we can read that into it. It would seem to me that the Secret Service would have good reason (and has in the past iirc) to operate a campaign of misinformation as a means to better secure the president.

Are you saying that the Director of the Secret Service is lying to a congressional committee for political purposes?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:32 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 2):
I expect them to lie in the national interest -- it's not like they haven't done it before, and in this case there's probably some sound reasoning behind it.
You do realize you are accusing him of perjury.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 2):
It is not in their interest (or anyone else's, for that matter) for them to be forthright and honest about death threats against any president.
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Why do you think saying that threats have increased would make his life more difficult, if it's true or not?

Where are the sources for the "400% increase" number? I think it was simply made up so that the left can find more reason to hate those who don't like Obama. Propaganda, pure and simple.

[Edited 2009-12-04 08:33:23]
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:43 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Where are the sources for the "400% increase" number? I think it was simply made up so that the left can find more reason to hate those who don't like Obama. Propaganda, pure and simple

There's your answer right there. As to the rest, what in the world did you expect? That they would agree the number is inflated or that the Secret Service director is being honest while under oath? I must admit I'm mystified as to why anyone would want to inflate the numbers instead of depress them. Inflating them only invites others to hop aboard the wagon, depressing them would show futility in engaging.
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:43 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
You do realize you are accusing him of perjury.

Officials in security positions lie in and out of hearings as a matter of course - when's the last time anyone was prosecuted for it?? It's accepted protocol in Washington - when the mikes are hot, you don't say what's actually known in any or accurate detail. What has been Sec. Clinton's answer to every drone-related question for the last eleven months?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Why do you think saying that threats have increased would make his life more difficult, if it's true or not?

Because it would make groups or individuals targeting the president feel they are having a desired effect - much the same reason you don't hear the CIA publicly trotting out figures on terror activity regularly.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Where are the sources for the "400% increase" number? I think it was simply made up so that the left can find more reason to hate those who don't like Obama. Propaganda, pure and simple.

Perhaps but until sources are named there's no saying one way or the other for certain.
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:47 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
It would seem to me that the Secret Service would have good reason (and has in the past iirc) to operate a campaign of misinformation as a means to better secure the president.

Negative , The natural tendency of any bureaucracy is to make it appear that they need more recourse's. If the head of SS would have simply said , we are over whelmed with all the white power republican threats on the president ... bam funding and anything else he needed to grow his department would be immediate. A bureaucrat is never going to say ... we are fine and all is well if it is isn't.
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Arrow
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:54 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Where are the sources for the "400% increase" number? I think it was simply made up so that the left can find more reason to hate those who don't like Obama. Propaganda, pure and simple.

It came from some guys book -- a former spook? Ronald Kessler I think. It wasn't made up by the left, the right, or the middle. The point is, I can't see the Director of the Secret Service being frank, honest and open -- even before a Congressional committee -- in public about something that is so fraught with the danger of copy-catism.

The story I read said he'd be more than happy to elaborate on the issue behind closed doors -- where in my opinion he could well tell the politicians that there has been a 400% spike -- or maybe only a 200% spike -- and god help any of you who leak this to anyone.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
You do realize you are accusing him of perjury.

Yup. Lot's of precedent for that at the highest levels, don't you think? All that number has to be is 399% and he's off the hook. I'm sure they can massage it that much.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Why do you think saying that threats have increased would make his life more difficult, if it's true or not?

You're missing the point. A long long time ago newspapers stopped reporting on bomb threats unless there was so much public disruption that they couldn't avoid it. Why? because they noticed that every time a bomb threat was reported, another bunch came in real quick.

It's always a balancing act in security, between what the public needs to know and is entitled to know; and what would simply inflame a situation and create more danger. I would put threats on a president's life in that category.
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NIKV69
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:44 pm

The whole amount of death threat thing was propaganda brought out in the WH crasher hearing as a way to drive home the point that the breach was pretty serious. It came from a black member of the committee and though I applaud her effort to show this act was serious and people that committed it idiots it was not needed. I doubt the 400% number is accurate. I think Obama may have more than other presidents but it's useless propaganda designed to further exploit the notion that he is failing because of his color and that the people that oppose him do only for racial reasons. Both of which is complete nonsense.
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:54 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 8):
You're missing the point. A long long time ago newspapers stopped reporting on bomb threats unless there was so much public disruption that they couldn't avoid it. Why? because they noticed that every time a bomb threat was reported, another bunch came in real quick.

Sorry, still don't buy it. That story about death threats has been around for the better part of a year, and nobody in the Service ever tried to tone it down. Seriously, I don't think they care a damn about whether people think the threat rate is the same as before or is 400% higher - it makes absolutely no difference to them.

Hence, it makes no sense for him to lie about it.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:30 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):

I think we can take the head of the Secret Service as the authoritive source, and say that the story is permenantly and definitively debunked.

Come on Man!!! You really see that as a credible source? I understand that he's the director, but people are already worried that Obama's security is in question, ESPECIALLY with the mishap with the couple walking into the W/H without so much as a second thought from the secret service. It's obvious that they need to do a lot of damage control after that incident.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
. I think Obama may have more than other presidents but it's useless propaganda designed to further exploit the notion that he is failing because of his color and that the people that oppose him do only for racial reason

Useless propaganda? What does death threats have to do with useless propaganda? You're suggesting that the increase in death threats have 100% to do with race, and that's ridiculous. No one said the huge increase (if there is any) had anything to do with race. But you want to make it seem like that because you want to make it seem like propaganda.
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:53 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
Come on Man!!! You really see that as a credible source?

So what would you say if he came out and said ... " The threat is up 400%" ?..... something tells me that his statement would meet with much more credibility for you , suddenly he would be the esteemed director of the SS with irrefutable facts...
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Dreadnought
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:56 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
No one said the huge increase (if there is any) had anything to do with race.

Really?

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
and the rise in hate groups across the United States since this president took office,

Hate groups? What do you think when you think of hate groups? Swastica-carrying neo-nazis, KKK, white supremicy groups, and so forth. Racists, right?

Of all the people that sent in death threats against Bush, do you think that the media would have described them as "hate groups"?

This is the sort of subtle propaganda that has been common in the US for years.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
Come on Man!!! You really see that as a credible source? I understand that he's the director, but people are already worried that Obama's security is in question, ESPECIALLY with the mishap with the couple walking into the W/H without so much as a second thought from the secret service. It's obvious that they need to do a lot of damage control after that incident.

He was under oath, dude. People under oath very rarely lie at that level, in spite of what you say. They might obfuscate, say they don't remember, refuse to answer, and be otherwise vague.

But he said quite clearly that the 400% number had no basis in reality and that the real rate was similar to those of Bush and Clinton. No obfuscation there.

I think you simply want to believe that those evil righties are just gunning for Obama.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:14 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):

He was under oath, dude. People under oath very rarely lie at that level, in spite of what you say. They migh

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  Please, Stop Ok. I didn't realize we lived in a perfect world where there is never any lying
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TheCol
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:14 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
the Examiner



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
Come on Man!!! You really see that as a credible source?

Who in their right mind would take anything the Examiner says as fact? I'd sooner go with the Secret Service on this one.
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avent
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:52 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Where are the sources for the "400% increase" number? I think it was simply made up so that the left can find more reason to hate those who don't like Obama. Propaganda, pure and simple.

Well, since we're speculating and making things up, how about an alternative theory:

The numbers suggest a heightened level of discontent at the man-boy in the White House and hence he's being divisive and not the unifier he was hoped to be? This 'theory' would play to the RIght and the tea-party cranks, and help legitimize their own extremism.
 
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:34 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Are you saying that the Director of the Secret Service is lying to a congressional committee for political purposes?

I'm saying the director is lying (or more likely, misleading while on the record) but it's quite a leap of logic to think that he's doing it for political purposes. Why would it be political? You don't even know who he voted for.
 
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:37 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
I'm saying the director is lying (or more likely, misleading while on the record) but it's quite a leap of logic to think that he's doing it for political purposes. Why would it be political? You don't even know who he voted for.

I'm stunned at the cynicism shown here about the integrity and truthfulness under oath of the Secret Service, a unit with an honorable tradition of law enforcement. It's like calling a Marine a liar.
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ltbewr
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:40 am

Common sense would suggest that it is reasonable to assume that there has been a significantly larger number in various levels of threats of violent assult or death upon President Obama due to his race.

It is possible that certain classes of threats have been upgraded to more severe ones, inflating certain ones substantually, perhaps the with 4 times the number of threats in large part due to the reclassification process. I would also suspect that the Secret Service and other policing authorities have been looking out for and collecting more numbers of the threats that are out there causing a much higher number. The Internet has also made is easier for one to anonomously place threats.

As to the '400%' number - if there were 4 of the most serious threats in the last 11 months vs. 1 as to the last 11 months of GWB, then you have a distorted number that can be abused.
 
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:53 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):

He was under oath, dude. People under oath very rarely lie at that level, in spite of what you say.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

I actually agree with you on your OP. But this one statement is a pretty good one, you have to admit.

Nixon, Clinton, several Bush staffers, etc. etc. etc...
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:05 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
I actually agree with you on your OP. But this one statement is a pretty good one, you have to admit.

Nixon, Clinton, several Bush staffers, etc. etc. etc...

ONE...MORE...TIME

The Director of the Secret Service is NOT a political appointee. He is an officer that has worked his way up through the ranks of the Secret Service over 25 years.

http://www.secretservice.gov/director.shtml

Do not confuse such a man with the common scum of politicians and their minions.
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Falcon84
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:29 am

And this is a story, how Charles? What is the point of it? To say Obama hasn't been threatened?

Slow news day, I guess.
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:30 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It's like calling a Marine a liar.

And Haditha is an invention of Jihadists?
 
avent
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:33 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
I'm stunned at the cynicism shown here about the integrity and truthfulness under oath of the Secret Service, a unit with an honorable tradition of law enforcement. It's like calling a Marine a liar.

But it's OK for the rightwing to call the marines' commander in chief a liar - as far as religious beliefs and country of origin are concerned.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:11 am

You guys do realize that the FBI and the Secret Service have different definitions of what constitutes a "death threat" against the President.

For the Secret Service the key is 'credible threat'. Those are actively investigated by the Secret Service and are a small percentage of the actual threats reported. There is some basis to the threat which makes it more than just idle talk.

For the FBI which does most of the preliminary investigations - anything they have to examine is reported as a threat. Because they expend manpower, time and money against it.

So for 50 threats in the FBI list, the Secret Service may see 2 or 3.

Also, with the growth of the internet, the number of incidents of web sites and forums where threats against the President are made more public - the number of incidents reported to the authorities has increased tremendously.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
"I'm not sure where that number comes from," he said, adding that the number of threats against Obama "are the same level as it has been [against] the last two presidents."

The quote about the same level of threats is career bureacrat BS.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Are you saying that the Director of the Secret Service is lying to a congressional committee

In the public session - of course they lie. They can then turn around in the closed door classified session and tell Congress that the previous statement was a incorrect and make the correction at that time. Happens everyday.

The Director of the Secret Service has testified in the past that the agency needed more people and staff, especially computer technical staff, because the level of activity against President Bush was several times greater than against President Clinton. (Don't know if it was the same guy).

Now the level of credible threats is probably at or near the same against the most recent few presidents.

But the Secret Service and the FBI have both been on record several times that they are getting many times more reports of threats because of the internet than they ever did before it became so common for people to make posts.

If you wrote a letter to the editor and said the president should be taken out in 1966, it probably got reported to the Secret Service - but if the local police chief said you were just spouting off - you were a hot head talker, but not going to do anything - it ended there.

If you posted that on a web site in 1996, it probably did not get reported to the Secret Service unless the entire web site was focused on killing the President.

If you posted that on a blog in 2006, it would get reported to the Secret Service and checked by the FBI or Secret Service.

In all three cases - it would not be a 'credible threat' and not appear in Secret Service statistics.

Right not the Director of the Secret Service is saying he has everything under control and all the people he needs - to deflect attention away from the party crasher incident. Wait until the next budget cycle and see what his story is.
 
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:34 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
The Director of the Secret Service is NOT a political appointee.

So, why would you think he would by lying for political gain then?
 
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:46 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
So, why would you think he would by lying for political gain then?

That's the question I've been asking you and others who seem to scoff at his testimony.
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windy95
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:50 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It's like calling a Marine a liar.

And Haditha is an invention of Jihadists?

Yes it was..
 
avent
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:37 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
So, why would you think he would by lying for political gain then?

Not for personal political gain, but there may be a gain none-the-less. I could envision a scenario where nutcases are more riled up if they think a particular president is so unpopular they get significantly more threats. They might see this as some kind of justification or validation of the act and of their thinking along those lines. And I could easily see a public official telling one thing publicly to congress, but telling the real truth in private for national security reasons.
 
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:47 pm



Quoting Avent (Reply 29):
Not for personal political gain, but there may be a gain none-the-less. I could envision a scenario where nutcases are more riled up if they think a particular president is so unpopular they get significantly more threats. They might see this as some kind of justification or validation of the act and of their thinking along those lines. And I could easily see a public official telling one thing publicly to congress, but telling the real truth in private for national security reasons.

I just don't see the logic in that. I don't see how the knowledge that there are (just making up numbers here) 40 threats per day rather than 10 would motivate some Mountain Man one way or the other. Those guys would hate/act the same way regardless. I dislike Obama for his policies, and it don't matter to me whether 1% of the population agrees with me or 90%. It's my opinion and that's that.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on that point. But that still doesn't explain why a sworn law enforcement officer would lie in testemony. Assuming that you are right and he believes such information would increase the threat, he should have something along the lines of, "It is not our policy to discuss these statistics in public, but I would be glad to talk about that in closed session."
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avent
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:34 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
I just don't see the logic in that. I don't see how the knowledge that there are (just making up numbers here) 40 threats per day rather than 10 would motivate some Mountain Man one way or the other. Those guys would hate/act the same way regardless. I dislike Obama for his policies, and it don't matter to me whether 1% of the population agrees with me or 90%. It's my opinion and that's that.

Well I only offer it as an opinion based on a sense that culturally, people can develop mob mentalities and take on behaviours that they would not otherwise take in the absence of external stimulation driven by group hysteria. Given the torrent of lies, hysteria, and lopsided information that FOX puts out 24 hours a day, we've already seen how the tea-party nutcases have come unglued in that environment. Could a nut be further pushed over the edge or derive inspiration or validation or develop an increased sense that 'something desperately needs to be done' from hearing a particular president has substantially more death threats? I don't think it's a stretch at all. But I don't know how one would determine what the correct analysis is.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
I guess we have to agree to disagree on that point. But that still doesn't explain why a sworn law enforcement officer would lie in testemony. Assuming that you are right and he believes such information would increase the threat, he should have something along the lines of, "It is not our policy to discuss these statistics in public, but I would be glad to talk about that in closed session."

Yes, but this statement would be seen as confirming the belief of increased threats, and if my premise about elevated numbers providing validation to potential assassins, the statement would not be the best one could make in order to reduce the threat.

Put another way, if there is any possibility that understating numbers tends to reduce the risk - even if this cannot be proven - then there is a benefit in doing so.
 
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:14 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
So, why would you think he would by lying for political gain then?

That's the question I've been asking you and others who seem to scoff at his testimony.

No, it's really not the question you've been asking. Maybe it's the one you intended to ask, but it's not what you asked. This is what you asked

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Are you saying that the Director of the Secret Service is lying to a congressional committee for political purposes?

To which I said it was a leap to think that he would lie for political purposes. Your question implied that would be the reason.

Quoting Avent (Reply 29):
Not for personal political gain, but there may be a gain none-the-less.

Yes. His job is to secure the president. There may be gain in lying to secure the president.

Quoting Avent (Reply 29):
I could envision a scenario where nutcases are more riled up if they think a particular president is so unpopular they get significantly more threats. They might see this as some kind of justification or validation of the act and of their thinking along those lines. And I could easily see a public official telling one thing publicly to congress, but telling the real truth in private for national security reasons.

Tell it, Avent.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
I just don't see the logic in that.

Well 1) you don't think like a crook, 2) you don't think like a stupid crook, 3) you don't think like a secret service director.  Smile
 
Mir
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:57 am

NYTimes article on the subject from today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/us/06threat.html?pagewanted=1&hpw

According to the article, the threat rate against Obama is comparable to the rate that Bush experienced, but it is true that there was a spike in the days leading up to the inauguration, as well as the beginning of his presidency. Also, Obama's race continues to be a factor in the threats that are received (though it doesn't seem to be causing any more threats in total at this point).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:13 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 28):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It's like calling a Marine a liar.

And Haditha is an invention of Jihadists?

Yes it was..

Surprised then to learn that LtGen James Mattis is a Jihadi.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 19756
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RE: Death Threats Against Obama Vs Bush, Clinton

Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:37 am

So I'm sorry, but I haven't seen the evidence that Obama has been getting 400% of the death threats that Bush did. I have seen evidence that he's getting about the same as Bush did.

Was there evidence to the contrary?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan

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