dxing
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Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:40 am

Even the screamer, Howard Dean finally gets it.

http://www.ketknbc.com/news/howard-dean-urges-defeat-health-bill

"You will be forced to buy insurance. If you don't, you'll pay a fine," said Dean, a physician. "It's an insurance company bailout." Interviewed on ABC's "Good Morning America," he said the bill has some good provisions, "but there has to be a line beyond which you think the bill is bad for the country."

Although I think the fact that the government would for the first time in our history force an individual to buy something just to live in the country is more important than an insurance company bailout, his premise that it makes the bill bad for the country is completely correct.

Maybe now the liberals will wake the hell up and realize what the majority of Americans have already realized long ago, that this bill is just a piece of stinking garbage that needs to go straight to the dump.

[Edited 2009-12-16 16:41:03]
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flanker
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:01 am

Actually the first thing the libs will do is throw Dean under the bus.
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Airstud
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:59 am

Yeah it's not a good bill at all. Simultaneously ambitious and short-sighted.

(jeez you'd almost think Obama was too inexperienced....)
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NIKV69
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:07 am

Hate to say it but he is right. This bill is a joke now. A total waste of time and a huge loss for the DNC even if passed. Instead of holding true to their ideals they sold out. Bad for everyone. Even Pelosi will cave.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:29 am

If you needed further proof that the purpose of the bill is NOT to bring the cost of health care under control, today the Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2009/12/14/AR2009121401409.html

Let's quickly review. The supposed purpose of this reform was twofold - 1) get everyone covered by health insurance of one sort or another, and 2) reduce the cost of healthcare which is taking a bigger and bigger chunk out of people's pockets.

This bill provides less than half of the current uninsured with coverage, and CBO estimated that the average health insurance policy for a single person will increase by $1700 per year - around $140 per month.

And on top of that, it will cost trillions of dollars.

Utter and complete failure from all rational aspects.
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Aaron747
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:57 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
And on top of that, it will cost trillions of dollars.

Utter and complete failure from all rational aspects.

What to expect from a bunch of lawyers who haven't worked a day in their lives? Such a waste.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NIKV69
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:02 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
If you needed further proof that the purpose of the bill is NOT to bring the cost of health care under control, today the Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

Yea really, buying from Canada is great. So much cheaper! Why block that?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
StarAC17
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:26 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Yea really, buying from Canada is great. So much cheaper! Why block that?

Its cheaper because its very regulated and a lot of the drugs are allowed to be sold as their parent names, I don't think this is true south of the border where you have to buy the specific brand.

Example you can buy stock Acetaminophen over Tylenol if you wish, or Ibuprofen over Advil.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:25 am



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 7):
Its cheaper because its very regulated and a lot of the drugs are allowed to be sold as their parent names, I don't think this is true south of the border where you have to buy the specific brand.

You can get generics in the US, no problem. The problem is that pharmaceutical companies use the US market more than anywhere else as a profit center with which to pay for their worldwide R&D.

They also market like crazy. For a person moving to the US, one of the most shocking things is how you constantly see advertising on TV for perscription drugs. That should be banned, IMHO.
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Ken777
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:00 am

Dean sprouted off to keep the liberals happy.

My bet is that the bill goes forward.

The one change I would like to see however, is to make pre-existing condition discrimination illegal effective on the day the bill is signed.

I'm in the camp that believes as soon as the private insurance companies look at the "challenges" of taking care of patients they previously called "rejects" these companies will decide they prefer to let the government take care of them under a public option.

The other thing Dean understands is that there ill be other opportunities in the future to improve the current situation.
 
dxing
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:18 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
The one change I would like to see however, is to make pre-existing condition discrimination illegal effective on the day the bill is signed.

After 90 days there will be a completely seperate government run insurance program for those with pre-existing conditions. Page 41 of the link. That is todays bill, can't gaurantee that they won't change it tomorrow to buy off another vote.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/p...protection-affordable-care-act.pdf


8 Subtitle B—Immediate Actions to
9 Preserve and Expand Coverage
10 SEC. 1101. IMMEDIATE ACCESS TO INSURANCE FOR UNIN
11SURED INDIVIDUALS WITH A PREEXISTING
12 CONDITION.
13 (a) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 90 days after the
14 date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall establish
15 a temporary high risk health insurance pool program to
16 provide health insurance coverage for eligible individuals
17 during the period beginning on the date on which such
18 program is established and ending on January 1, 2014.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
I'm in the camp that believes as soon as the private insurance companies look at the "challenges" of taking care of patients they previously called "rejects" these companies will decide they prefer to let the government take care of them under a public option.

Insurance companies won't have to worry about that since according to the bill the government creates the pool and helps pay for it.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:56 am



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Maybe now the liberals will wake the hell up and realize what the majority of Americans have already realized long ago, that this bill is just a piece of stinking garbage that needs to go straight to the dump.

This isn't about liberals. Everyone needs to come together and realize what the real problems are with this bill. I love how you're only blaming liberals when conservatives have done nothing to help better the bill other than slander it with these ridiculous assertions about "death panels" and what have you.

We need to stop this bill, and turn it inside out. We need to see what the American people want, instead of throwing a bill forward that only helps the insurance companies get stronger while the consumer get's weaker. But we can't have proper reform if all conservatives can do is complain and complain and complain about what they DON'T want in the bill. If you don't have anything positive to add to a new health care bill, then stop raising all these ridiculous claims. If you think there is a problem you'd like the government to clarify, then protest it peacefully, don't run around the streets of Washington D.C. with the rest of your paranoid government conspiracy loving friends.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:02 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 10):
Insurance companies won't have to worry about that since according to the bill the government creates the pool and helps pay for it.

Yes, but the pool in question ends in 2014, at which point the insurance companies will be stuck without the ability to turn customers away based on preexisting conditions. When that transition occurs, I think Ken is right in guessing that the insurance companies will decide that they'd much rather have the government cover the "rejects" than themselves.

This, incidentally, is the same reason why the idea of a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid. The insurance companies would love to dump high-risk patients onto a government plan, and only cover the low-risk patients themselves.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:29 am



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):

This, incidentally, is the same reason why the idea of a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid. The insurance companies would love to dump high-risk patients onto a government plan, and only cover the low-risk patients themselves.

Well it turns out Obama never wanted the public option anyway, so all the fussing was over nothing. Personally, I as well as people I know are saying that even though we want healthcare reform, this bill does NOT cut it. I hope Obama knows he's messing around with the bull right now because a lot of leftists had already said if the public option is not included they will not vote in 2012. They need to stop this health care bill right now and do a massive overhaul on it. RIGHT NOW.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:53 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Dean sprouted off to keep the liberals happy.

It's not just Dean - some 60% or more of physicians are against the current private system and support some form of public insurance.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NIKV69
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:18 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
You can get generics in the US, no problem. The problem is that pharmaceutical companies use the US market more than anywhere else as a profit center with which to pay for their worldwide R&D.

Why get generics when you can get name brand from Canada for just as cheap?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Dean sprouted off to keep the liberals happy.

My bet is that the bill goes forward

I thought so too but I am not so sure now. The far left is livid and they are right. I would rather see no bill and start up again down the road then to hand the insurance companies a win. I didn't like the public option but some of the things the Dems can do to lower price are out there and they aren't even doing that. It all goes back to the fact the DNC is simply doing this to prove a point so they can stand up and say "look! we did something the GOP couldn't" to use at election time. It's politics in it's worse form. Where they should take a step back and do a decent bill. Who cares if it takes another 6 months? This bill will do more harm than doing nothing.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
We need to stop this bill, and turn it inside out. We need to see what the American people want, instead of throwing a bill forward that only helps the insurance companies get stronger while the consumer get's weaker. But we can't have proper reform if all conservatives can do is complain and complain and complain about what they DON'T want in the bill. If you don't have anything positive to add to a new health care bill, then stop raising all these ridiculous claims. If you think there is a problem you'd like the government to clarify, then protest it peacefully, don't run around the streets of Washington D.C. with the rest of your paranoid government conspiracy loving friends.

Well as soon a the DNC stops the grandstanding and chest thumping maybe we can get somewhere. We need to be able to go to Canada, cross state lines and have oversight of the insurance companies. We need to slash the taxes and give tax breaks to all companies big and small that give employees health care. No pre existing condition etc. It's there but the DNC won't adopt it because they don't want any outside input and want to be heroes. Instead they are destroying themselves come November.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 13):
Well it turns out Obama never wanted the public option anyway, so all the fussing was over nothing. Personally, I as well as people I know are saying that even though we want healthcare reform, this bill does NOT cut it. I hope Obama knows he's messing around with the bull right now because a lot of leftists had already said if the public option is not included they will not vote in 2012.

You all blame Obama but it's not him, it's Pelosi. She is a hater, wants nobody to give input unless it agrees with her view and won't budge. She is a horrible speaker of the house and one of the biggest reasons we have no teamwork and why the congress since 06' is a disaster. Until you grasp the concept that this country is a center right country and not a secular progressive country, the better off we will be. Raising everyones taxes and spending a ton of money to have crap health care for all is not the answer. Until people like her are gone we will never imrprove.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:27 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
Why get generics when you can get name brand from Canada for just as cheap?

Drugs that are less than a decade old won't have generic alternatives. My wife has to take several drugs including one called Cellcept, which still costs over $400 per month. I've seen online pharmacies in Canada advertising the same stuff at less than half the cost.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
slider
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:16 pm

Dean, whatever. At least they don't have to buy him off like they bribed Lieberman and Nelson (with the threat of closing an AFB that should be investigated).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
If you needed further proof that the purpose of the bill is NOT to bring the cost of health care under control, today the Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2009/12/14/AR2009121401409.html

Let's quickly review. The supposed purpose of this reform was twofold - 1) get everyone covered by health insurance of one sort or another, and 2) reduce the cost of healthcare which is taking a bigger and bigger chunk out of people's pockets.

This bill provides less than half of the current uninsured with coverage, and CBO estimated that the average health insurance policy for a single person will increase by $1700 per year - around $140 per month.

And on top of that, it will cost trillions of dollars.

Utter and complete failure from all rational aspects.

Follow the money. So called "big pharma" has a lot of skin in the game...
 
dxing
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:40 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
I love how you're only blaming liberals when conservatives have done nothing to help better the bill other than slander it with these ridiculous assertions about "death panels" and what have you.

Conservatives have offered numerous amendments, virtually all have been voted down strictly along party lines. Next.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
If you think there is a problem you'd like the government to clarify, then protest it peacefully, don't run around the streets of Washington D.C. with the rest of your paranoid government conspiracy loving friends.

You mean like the climate protesters over in CPH? The ones that are getting tear gassed and arrested? I liked Dennis Millers comment that it was pure irony that enviromentalists are being arrested and handcuffed with plastic zip ties that will take thousands of years to decompose in a land fill. Or do you mean like the anti-capitalists in Pittsburgh not long ago breaking windows and vandalizing the downtown area. Meanwhile how many were arrested at the tea party in Washington this year? Bueller? Bueller?

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):
Yes, but the pool in question ends in 2014

Not necessarily. Starting on page 47.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/p...protection-affordable-care-act.pdf


(3) TERMINATION OF AUTHORITY.—
18 (A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in
19 subparagraph (B), coverage of eligible individ
20 uals under a high risk pool in a State shall ter
21 minate on January 1, 2014.
22 (B) TRANSITION TO EXCHANGE.—The
23 Secretary shall develop procedures to provide
24 for the transition of eligible individuals enrolled
25 in health insurance coverage offered through a

S.L.C.
1 high risk pool established under this section
2 into qualified health plans offered through an
3 Exchange. Such procedures shall ensure that
4 there is no lapse in coverage with respect to the
5 individual and may extend coverage after the
6 termination of the risk pool involved, if the Sec
7retary determines necessary to avoid such a
8 lapse.


so it is written into the law that there can't be any lapse in coverage and if it appears there will be the program can be extended. Considering that there were Katrina victims still recieving rent subsidies that kept them in hotel rooms for almost a year or more after the hurricane, and that we were still paying a mohair subsidy from WW2 into the 1990's, I doubt the program will be cancelled in 2014.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):
This, incidentally, is the same reason why the idea of a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid. The insurance companies would love to dump high-risk patients onto a government plan, and only cover the low-risk patients themselves.

As well they should, and as well so should the consumer want that to happen since it wil lower prices for those not in that group.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 14):
It's not just Dean - some 60% or more of physicians are against the current private system and support some form of public insurance.

Considering the problems that some seniors around the country are having in finding doctors willing to take on new medicare patients due to the cost of getting paid and the underpayment the government pays, I wonder how many of them will be happy when the same starts happening to people not currently on any public plan?
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NIKV69
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:09 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
Conservatives have offered numerous amendments, virtually all have been voted down strictly along party lines. Next.

Which is to be expected because no GOP involvement can be in thei bill. Pelosi was clear the moment the DNC won control of the congress by saying "WE WON" By saying this she made it clear that it was her way or no way. She doesn't want to cross the aisle and thinks this whole country wants to be far left. It doesn't and this debacle was a wakeup call and the resounding thud will be heard the first Wed in November when Reid is serving breakfast at the Terrible's in Searchlight. She has been the biggest problem for the DNC and nobody can tell her to shut up. Even Obama.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:15 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
The problem is that pharmaceutical companies use the US market more than anywhere else as a profit center with which to pay for their worldwide R&D.



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Yea really, buying from Canada is great. So much cheaper! Why block that?



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

Does anyone know what percent of big pharma revenues versus customers come from the US?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
You all blame Obama but it's not him, it's Pelosi.

Yeah but Obama *is* the President, and should take ownership from the witch
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
tommy767
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:30 pm

Howard Dean. A true rebel. Too bad the media wrecked his campaign because of his loud scream. Washington could always use a good screamer!

EDIT:

And to add, Pelosi is a hater. Both her and Biden are true pushers in congress for the liberal elite. It's either her way or the highway. Obama, yeah he's just a regular joe but in the eyes of the liberal elite he can be persuaded to almost anything they say is right.

[Edited 2009-12-17 10:51:36]
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Dreadnought
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:35 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Does anyone know what percent of big pharma revenues versus customers come from the US?

That would be very difficult. You would have to have access to their regional P&L's prior to R&D allocations, which is unlikely to be publicly available. I just went through Merck's Annual Report, and there are no financials with near that degree of granularity.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:47 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
That would be very difficult. You would have to have access to their regional P&L's prior to R&D allocations, which is unlikely to be publicly available. I just went through Merck's Annual Report, and there are no financials with near that degree of granularity.

I assumed they'd have that as a talking point, ie US customers make up 20% of our total customers but 60% of our revenues or something like that. Airlines every once in a while mention what percent of their top customers generate whatever percent of their total revenue.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AGM100
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:59 pm

Not a surprise to me at all ... these goons were going to pass the original bill that they didn't even read. A 2000 page bill ... that not one of them read or planned on reading !! Any American who supports that kind of irresponsible government deserves nothing from me. They really thought it was just going to pass ! amazing and disgusting !

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Yeah but Obama *is* the President, and should take ownership from the witch

A powerless President who owes his job to the left wing apparatus who put him there. He can not defy Nancy .... the Pelosi's and Dachals's were his best friends when he was a little known senator from Chicago. They polished him up , appointed him to committees and worked his name into the lights ... he is Pelosi he is the left.
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Ken777
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:33 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
CBO estimated that the average health insurance policy for a single person will increase by $1700 per year - around $140 per month.

I had some bigger increases in health insurance under Bush/Cheney. The mad rush by insurance companies to jack up prices this year may well be greater than the $140 a month for some.

But then when you let insurance companies have legal collusion you should know you're headed for an anal penetration. How are the politicians on both sides going in stopping ATI for the health insurance companies?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Yea really, buying from Canada is great. So much cheaper! Why block that?

Money. Why do you think the pharna companies pay out so much to politicians? It's all about money.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
They also market like crazy. For a person moving to the US, one of the most shocking things is how you constantly see advertising on TV for perscription drugs. That should be banned, IMHO.

It's like a dude with asthma can get a Rx to keep him breathing while taking a Rx to get a woody so he can make the beast with two back with a young chick on a Rx to keep from getting knocked up (please note that, Sarah) and have lighter periods, but the dude's gonna die because he didn't see the commercial about the Rx for old farts to avoid heart attacks.

And the chick will end up Tweeting about not having a diddle with an old guy on NOT on Lipitor. If she has all her teeth she can probably be paid to be in a commercial.

Quoting DXing (Reply 10):
After 90 days there will be a completely seperate government run insurance program for those with pre-existing conditions.

That would solve a lot of problems and would take away a lot os excuses for jacking up your health insurance premiums. Would you go for that if it keeps money in your pocket?

Quoting DXing (Reply 10):
Insurance companies won't have to worry about that since according to the bill the government creates the pool and helps pay for it.

Does that mean that some existing costs will be shifted from your insurance premiums to your taxes? WIll your insurance company give you a break because of the shift? Sure they will.  Smile

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):
This, incidentally, is the same reason why the idea of a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid. The insurance companies would love to dump high-risk patients onto a government plan, and only cover the low-risk patients themselves.

Look at what you wrote - "a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid" Are you in the "let them eat cake" group, or are you happy to see high risk patients unable to get health insurance of any kind?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
The far left is livid and they are right.

If the far LEFT is livid AND the far RIGHT is livid then they must be doing something right in DC for once.  Yeah sure

Actually, the value of the law will be seen in future year. Conservatives hated Medicare when it came in, but they sure talk about liberals "cutting Medicare" these days. In a few years they will be able to scare the public with cries of the liberals cutting your rights to health care.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Drugs that are less than a decade old won't have generic alternatives. My wife has to take several drugs including one called Cellcept, which still costs over $400 per month. I've seen online pharmacies in Canada advertising the same stuff at less than half the cost.

As I said, it's all about money. As long as the companies can get away with it they will. As soon as the boon is dropped on them they will cut prices and continue to make money.

The funny part about the "dangers of re-importing drugs" is that these companies import drugs all the time. I have some insulin that is made in, gasp!, Europe. Drug companies hve no problems importing medicine when it adds money to their pockets.

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
As well they should, and as well so should the consumer want that to happen since it wil lower prices for those not in that group.

Am I reading you correctly? Are you actually supporting a public plan for those patients who would send YOUR health insurance premiums through the roof? Can we really be looking at that problem through the same eyes? Wow! Are you turning into someone who is politically pragmatic? Good to have you aboard!

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
Considering the problems that some seniors around the country are having in finding doctors willing to take on new medicare patients due to the cost of getting paid and the underpayment the government pays,

I haven't had a problem getting into see doctors. My old dermatologist (who I hadn't seen in years) had maxed out his percentage of Medicare patients so the secretary simply set me up with another specialist in the office. Not a problem getting into the first choice to do a heart cath and the surgeon who did my wife's surgery for a blocked bowel was happy to see me when the gallstone showed up.

The only time I have ever been rejected because of insurance from a hospital or clinic was when a famous cancer hospital in Houston refused to take my insurance was when I had private insurance. Then they wanted $14,300 for the first appointment.

Long term we know that we have a shortage of GPs, we know that we have shortages of doctors in certain geographic areas and we know that students graduating from med school have huge financial burdens from the cost of their education. Looking at the problems as one single challenge can bring "motivational" ideas for training and deploying needed skills.

But that is for future health care bills. This one needs to be taken care of, put in place and then we need to look at the next step.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:29 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Yeah but Obama *is* the President, and should take ownership from the witch

Why? He is a smart man, he has to know his re-election chances are shot at this point and he has a greater chance of getting more votes by distancing himself from the far left. I don't get it.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 21):
Howard Dean. A true rebel. Too bad the media wrecked his campaign because of his loud scream. Washington could always use a good screamer!

I don't know why this guy is even on TV. He is a far left whack. He is in the camp with Ed Schultz, Rachel Maddow and Nancy Pelosi. They are such a small minority.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
If the far LEFT is livid AND the far RIGHT is livid then they must be doing something right in DC for once.

True but at this point this bill is so bad they have to start over.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
AGM100
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:40 pm

The President said if this does not pass the government is going to go bankrupt .... say it isn't so ..? Really ? I mean how can we survive if the government is bankrupt ?

All this is just cutting the limbs away from the path so they can hit us with a big tax hike coming up. Trying to scare us into begging for a tax hike ..... I see em coming a mile away.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...rupt_without_health_care_bill.html
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slider
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:54 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Why? He is a smart man, he has to know his re-election chances are shot at this point and he has a greater chance of getting more votes by distancing himself from the far left. I don't get it.

Most people don’t get it except those that are absolute ideologues, of which is he one.
See, I believe most Americans, even normal Democrats, see this in the wrong light—it’s not about election chances at this point. It’s about as much power and transformation of the American economy and republic in as little time as they can possibly ram through. The midterm elections look to be a bloodbath for them, so they’re putting the pedal to the metal, damn the torpedoes, full Marxism ahead. This has been the golden moment they’ve waited for and now they have it.

Obama’s background has raised him for this moment—to pour gas on America and toss the lit match. He’s a Marxist—he has the background, the known associations, and is now going balls out to do what he can do, leaving decades of destruction in his path.
 
AGM100
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:25 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Why? He is a smart man, he has to know his re-election chances are shot at this point and he has a greater chance of getting more votes by distancing himself from the far left. I don't get it.

The plan was too push all the left wing big ticket items though in the first 9 months or year. Then after a cool off period make a sharp swerve to the right with some "tax cuts " and maybe make a show by vetoing a budget or two in the name of "cutting spending". Combine that with some "we are fighting AQ" in Afghanistan rhetoric and "WALA"! instant conservative just in time for the elections . Its a Clinton play from the old playbook.... one small problem .... he has marooned his base.
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Ken777
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:37 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 27):
The President said if this does not pass the government is going to go bankrupt

Graph the percentage of the GNP that health care takes up over the years, then project it out in the future. At some point you'll see that you're phucked.  Sad

There is a "too painful" point for most people on health care cost increases and too many people have passed that point already. Graph it out and see how much longer you have.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:03 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
Look at what you wrote - "a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid" Are you in the "let them eat cake" group, or are you happy to see high risk patients unable to get health insurance of any kind?

Neither. Any public option, if it is to succeed both at covering the uninsured and at lowering health care costs, must be available for purchase by all Americans, just like private insurance. Insurance only works if you're covering a mix of low, medium, and high-risk individuals, so that those who get sick can be covered by the premiums paid by those who don't get sick. A plan that only covers high-risk individuals isn't really insurance anymore - it's just the government paying for your health care.

Now, a public option that only covers the "rejects" is better than the current system, as it does meet the goal of covering the uninsured. But relative to other solutions, it's still a bad idea, since it doesn't address costs.
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StarAC17
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:36 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
They also market like crazy. For a person moving to the US, one of the most shocking things is how you constantly see advertising on TV for perscription drugs. That should be banned, IMHO.

Agreed because you are only supposed to take prescription drugs if a doctor deems you need to.

Most adds are blocked on the US networks in Canada and here they are only allowed to advertise over the counter drugs. The only perscripstion stuff advertised is Viagra and they can't tell you what it does, they just suggest it  Wink.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
Why get generics when you can get name brand from Canada for just as cheap?

Or get the generics here even cheaper  Smile.
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:09 am

It's a shame...health care is no laughing matter...but the politicians have to play politics....the idea is right the execution and the bill itself....a disaster....
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dxing
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:47 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
Would you go for that if it keeps money in your pocket?

I've been consistant in saying that those with pre-existing conditions should have coverage. If private insurance is to do it then State barriers to cross state line sales have to be lowered. If government is to do it then they don't. Regardless. as Yellowstone says below, no matter what you call it it's not insurance. Insurance is for something that hasn't happened yet. Pre-exiting conditions have already occured so all that is being done is paying for someones health care.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
WIll your insurance company give you a break because of the shift?

No, because costs always go up. CBO, the White House actuarial board, they all admit that even with a public option prices will go up.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
Am I reading you correctly?

You haven't been reading conservatives correctly for quite some time.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
I haven't had a problem getting into see doctors.

I see we are back to you being the only example that has any validity.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 31):
A plan that only covers high-risk individuals isn't really insurance anymore - it's just the government paying for your health care.

Been saying that for months.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:17 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
No, because costs always go up. CBO, the White House actuarial board, they all admit that even with a public option prices will go up.

Was that the rejects-only public option, or the open-to-all public option?
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cws818
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:09 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 24):
A powerless President who owes his job to the left wing apparatus who put him there. He can not defy Nancy .... the Pelosi's and Dachals's were his best friends when he was a little known senator from Chicago. They polished him up , appointed him to committees

Not at all. First of all, Pelosi serves in the House, not the Senate; consequently, she cannot appoint any senator to any senate committee. Second, Obama was elected senator in 2004 on the same day Sen. Daschle did not win re-election. Since they were not in the senate at the same time, Daschle couldn't appoint Obama to any committees, either.
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Aaron747
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:12 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 28):
Obama’s background has raised him for this moment—to pour gas on America and toss the lit match. He’s a Marxist—he has the background, the known associations, and is now going balls out to do what he can do, leaving decades of destruction in his path.

Right, because Marx certainly would have appointed central bank insiders as SecTreas and rescued his university buds at federal housing lenders to save them jail time while bailing out Wall Street to the tune of billions to boot. LOL!
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dxing
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:38 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 35):
Was that the rejects-only public option, or the open-to-all public option?

Makes no difference. Every plan they have come up with has shown that prices for the consumer will go up.
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slider
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:08 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 37):
Right, because Marx certainly would have appointed central bank insiders as SecTreas and rescued his university buds at federal housing lenders to save them jail time while bailing out Wall Street to the tune of billions to boot. LOL!

In order to extend the power of the Federal government? Yes.
 
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:16 pm



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 36):
Daschle couldn't appoint Obama to any committees, either.

The things you say are obviously "true" .... however you need to go back a read up on the backroom maneuvers by the democrats. In my opinion it was a back room plan to defeat the Clintons. The left wing of the democratic party worked Sen Obama up the chain so to speak. For instance .. Dashal handed over his entire campaign apparatus to Sen Obama , including his money backers. In return of course Dashal was appointed to HHS to head up the new "single payer health system monolith" which failed in the end. The left wing knew Hillary would not try the fiasco of central health-care again ... so a left wing single payer type was needed. And its no mistake that Biden is now VP as well.
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Aaron747
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:51 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 39):
In order to extend the power of the Federal government?

Sorry, not to get too picky, but Marx never would have supported any kind of federal system.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
kappel
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:15 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 28):
Obama’s background has raised him for this moment—to pour gas on America and toss the lit match. He’s a Marxist—he has the background, the known associations, and is now going balls out to do what he can do, leaving decades of destruction in his path.

Dude... take the tinfoil hat off!! Or stop smoking, it's making you paranoid. I guess you also believe he was not born in the US. Do you even know what a Marxist is? Obama is in no shape or form a Marxist, he is a political pragmatic, a centralist. He has republicans in his government for crying out loud.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
"WALA"!

That's VOILA... it's a French term...

It's really unbelievable to me that a great and wealthy country like the US cannot get a decent health care system passed. In that respect, I'm really happy to be living in Europe. Where I live, in the Netherlands, everybody is required to have a basic health care coverage. Good system in my opinion. Government, employers and the people themselves all chip in.
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AGM100
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:52 pm



Quoting Kappel (Reply 42):
That's VOILA... it's a French term...

Well I am not french ... Big grin I stand corrected .

Quoting Kappel (Reply 42):
Where I live, in the Netherlands

Americans are different Kappel , and that can not just be dismissed. Many of us do not like the government telling us we have to do something ...especially if it is just to help someone else . Sorry but that is the way it is ... we are not Europeans. I understand that many Europeans like they're system ... and that is fine ... so Americans who want that should move to the Netherlands. How would you feel about 30 million Americans showing up to join the utopia ?

Quoting Kappel (Reply 42):
I'm really happy to be living in Europe

Its a great place .... it is just different than America. We like owning boats , motorcycles , fast cars big trucks and M-16's !! We like buying a truck than can tow ten times what we ever would need to tow ! We are different ... that's the best explanation I can give. The left wants to convince us we are somehow flawed so that they can control us ... they will fail , our spirit will never be crushed by these over educated guilt ridden professors . !!!
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Ken777
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:26 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 31):
Insurance only works if you're covering a mix of low, medium, and high-risk individuals, so that those who get sick can be covered by the premiums paid by those who don't get sick.

True, but that has been slipping away for years in the private insurance sector. The concept now is to get rid of as many medium to high risk patients. It's about money, not the traditional "spread the risk" approach of days of old.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 31):
Now, a public option that only covers the "rejects" is better than the current system, as it does meet the goal of covering the uninsured. But relative to other solutions, it's still a bad idea, since it doesn't address costs.

The use of a public option for "rejects" (and I happen to be one, as is my wife, so I don't consider it a negative tag) basically curs total cash outlays for private companies so they can hold their prices down. Or make more profits, if you have a jaded opinion of health insurance companies.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
If private insurance is to do it then State barriers to cross state line sales have to be lowered.

I believe that one of the largest issues, however, will be when conservatives eventually get this passed and companies from a low standard state denies patients care, the patient has a major problem and there are law suits. Might be the reason why insurance companies are so strong on "tort reform" - they need it to avoid their responsibilities in saying "No" to a patient's treatment.

The main reason to pull down state barriers is to pull down the consumer protections that some states have set up. Insurance companies sell from states with the lowest standards and "state rights" turns into a joke.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
Pre-exiting conditions have already occured so all that is being done is paying for someones health care.

We are very close to the point where gene tests can let insurance companies know who can "potentially" be the next risk (read "not profitable") customer. More digging into family history and a bit of testing - changes the connotation of pre-existing conditions a bit.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
You haven't been reading conservatives correctly for quite some time.

No, I haven't been trusting conservatives for quite some time. Voting for Bush II in 2000 was the last time, actually.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
I see we are back to you being the only example that has any validity.

Gee, hate to put up a personal example that might contradict the conservative bible. I know that I'm not the only example. My wife is one also - had a biopsy on a bump last week and gets the stitches out later this afternoon. Another Medicare patient having no problems with a dermatologist. What's wrong with this country when Medicare patients have no problems seeing doctors?!?  hypnotized 
 
AGM100
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:39 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
What's wrong with this country when Medicare patients have no problems seeing doctors?!?

I have not met a conservative that suggests getting rid of Medicare ... but adding 50 million people too it and raising taxes just to include the uninsured is bogus. Just because it works as intended ... does not mean we need to expand it and ruin it. And it does not work because it is at least a trillion in debt at this point . So the doctors are being paid with funny money essentially or IOU's for future generations .,

A system that every American pays into every week out of their paycheck...and the fed has ripped it off and bankrupted it. I have paid a average of about 8,000.00 a year into medicare for the past 12 years not counting the years before that .... and I have to listen to our President threaten me that it is going to be gone if I don't agree to pay more ... fu** that . I want private health savings accounts ... get the fed out of taking our money and pissing it away.
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kappel
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:27 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
How would you feel about 30 million Americans showing up to join the utopia ?

I'd welcome them!! I'd be a hypocrite not to, as I'm an immigrant myself... Although 30 million is about twice the size of the current Dutch population. But if they would spread across Europe... no problem at all!!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
over educated

What is over educated? I have a masters degree in law, am I over educated? I believe there is no such thing as being over educated. UNDER educated is a different story though...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
Well I am not french

Haha, no problem of course... thankfully neither am I.  Big grin

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
Americans are different Kappel , and that can not just be dismissed. Many of us do not like the government telling us we have to do something

I respect that not everybody is the same. Heck, I'm very happy not everybody is the same. But if you buy a car or boat, it's mandatory to get insurance. Why can't insurance on your health be mandatory? This baffles me. One of the big drains to the system seems to me to be people who have no insurance, but need (urgent) health care anyway, for example in an ER. If they had insurance, first they would pay premiums (even if marginal) and possibly any problems they had could have been dealt with early, negating the need for expensive hospital treatment.

I'm also baffled by the absolute and outright refusal of Americans to borrow good ideas from overseas or across the border. Because it's not from the US doesn't mean it's not a good idea...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
especially if it is just to help someone else

Especially if it's to help someone else? I REALLY hope that's a typo and that you meant EVEN if it's to help someone else...  crazy 
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:48 pm

If Howard Dean says there's something wrong....there's something wrong...
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StarAC17
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:44 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 28):
Obama’s background has raised him for this moment—to pour gas on America and toss the lit match. He’s a Marxist—he has the background, the known associations, and is now going balls out to do what he can do, leaving decades of destruction in his path.

Before you make cynical statements like this you should really put things in perspective, if this plan was ever put forward in any other developed country over what we currently have there would be riots in the street for the government taking away something that is considered a right. He might be a communist in your eyes but Obama is still one of the most right wing leaders in the developed world.

What you are getting is pretty much the same old but with a few additional things that are intended to benefit the average joe.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
Americans are different Kappel , and that can not just be dismissed. Many of us do not like the government telling us we have to do something ...especially if it is just to help someone else .

Thats not just an American trait, in all other developed countries we pay higher taxes for healthcare and we get freedom of choice on what doctors we see and what hospitals we go to, also there is no cap on how many time we can see a doctor in year.
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dxing
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RE: Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill

Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:38 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
not the traditional "spread the risk" approach of days of old.

Insurance for high risk has always been more expensive. It's part of spreading the risk. Unfortunately supporters of pre-exisitng conditions don't want to accept the fact that they, like bad drivers, are in an increased risk group and would be required to pay more.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
The use of a public option for "rejects" (and I happen to be one,

Here we go again, first you're a reject. Before too long you'll be citing that it doesn't matter because you're on medicare. The usual two faced approach.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
The main reason to pull down state barriers is to pull down the consumer protections that some states have set up. Insurance companies sell from states with the lowest standards and "state rights" turns into a joke.

Senator Klobuchar of Minnesota showed just how out of touch on this issue she is yesterday on "Fox News Sunday" with Chris Wallace by saying she wants the high quality low cost of Minnesota be extended to a state like Florida. Which State do you think has a higher average age in the prime medicare years? Which segement of the population goes to see the doctor more and which State has more of them? Yet somehow the Minnesota model is going to work in Florida and cost the same? Whose dreaming now?

As to your comment on State's rights, the commerce clause in the Constitution was made exactly for this sort of thing. The founding fathers understood that State government should not get in the way of commerce between the States.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
More digging into family history and a bit of testing - changes the connotation of pre-existing conditions a bit.

Which is why conservatives have no problem with outlawing the prohibition of excluding persons with pre-existing conditions from receiving coverage. But they do object to them not having to pay for that increased risk.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
No, I haven't been trusting conservatives for quite some time

Then you trust the party that buys votes, does the sweet heart deal, and blackmails their own members into voting for bad legislation just so they can say they got something done.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
Gee, hate to put up a personal example that might contradict the conservative bible.

As noted above, the problem is that you use that one example as the end all and be all. When you do cite an outside source it's generally an oddball lawsuit that is not reflective of the general reality.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
What's wrong with this country when Medicare patients have no problems seeing doctors?!?

Out in Bumf--k they don't. Try it in New York or Chicago or any other large metropolitan area. It's been documented several times over that in locations doctors are taking less and less medicare patients since getting paid is difficult as is getting reimbursement that matches expediture.
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