cabso1
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Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:21 am

Right, so I have to apply for a student visa to Oz. Due to my nationality, I am assessed as Level 4 on their student visa nationality classification system (http://www.immi.gov.au/students/student-visa-assessment-levels.htm)

Each of the levels (there are 4) are considered differently. Being Level 4, I am expected to gather together 3 years' worth of tuition fees and living expenses and park them in an account for 6 months; after which I should then apply for a student visa. Where in, I shall be pre-vetted to see if I'm genuine. The way the vetting works is that I have to submit an application form, my university offer letter and the fee payment of AUD540 to the Australian High Commission, and without an interview, they will decide my fate. Should I be classed as genuine, I have to then pay the university fees, do an IELTS test, a medical and submit all those documents back to the High Commission for them to do a second assessment, at which time I may still be rejected.

So all in all, they expect me to park close to AUD130K in an account for 6 months, then wait a further 1-3 for them to decide if I should be let into the country to study whilst scores of other students who can't coin together a sentence of passable English attend bogus colleges in the back alleys of SYD, MEL and BNE, and then succeed to obtain PR.

You ask why I deem it as racist if they have a few extra requirements? A student from a Level 1 country, only needs to submit a declaration that they have the finance required, do not need an IELTS test, do not need to do a medical, do not have to go through the vetting procedure, basically do not need to do anything that is required of Level 4 countries. The same people from those 'Level 1' countries do not know the difference between your and you're...

If any of you say that I have the option of not going to Australia to study, yes I do have that option and I intend to use it too if nothing works out in Australia.

For those people who claim that the above is too long, all I'm saying is that like the claim: no two people are the same, no two countrymen are the same, don't judge a book by the cover, and don't be preposterous in your demands!

Edit: To say that I've not lived in my country of citizenship since 1997.

Disclaimer: I may have used racism to gain your attention and I do not mean it in the same way as Indians used it to claim racist attacks.

[Edited 2009-12-17 03:31:27 by cabso1]
 
RussianJet
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:25 am

The 'levels' are probably based on sound experience the Australian Government has. It may seem harsh that you have to jump through extra hoops, but it's not just Australia's fault.

Bottom line, going there is a privilege and not a right. Look elsewhere if you don't like the rules.
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Gemuser
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:47 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
The 'levels' are probably based on sound experience the Australian Government has. It may seem harsh that you have to jump through extra hoops, but it's not just Australia's fault.

You are da** right. There is statistical evidence to back up the classification of countries, I don't know if its public, but its there and IMHO they let people in far too easily too.

Lets just say that in my personal experience about 70% of international students, that I personally teach, are a waste of space in a class room, compared to about 35% of local students who are a waste of space in the class room. If that offends anybody, sorry, but that is my personal experience.

Gemuser
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ltbewr
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:52 am

Australia has a long and deep history of only wanting 'white', European immigration (so did the USA). They fear a massive influx of people from throughout Asia who would use student visas to stay in Australia rather than go back to their home countries overwhelmingly changing the traditional European mix of people there. By placing onorous financial and technical requirements on such person more likely to use student visas for permanate immigration, they hope to limit them becoming residents and later citizens. I recall when I visited Australia in 1989 ( I am from the USA) I had to get a tourist visa which also required modest financial proof, a outbound travel ticket and no criminal records (especially drug crimes).
 
cabso1
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Rac

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:01 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
The 'levels' are probably based on sound experience the Australian Government has. It may seem harsh that you have to jump through extra hoops, but it's not just Australia's fault.

True, and it's not. It's the fault of the people who have abused the immigration system in Australia.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 2):
Lets just say that in my personal experience about 70% of international students, that I personally teach, are a waste of space in a class room, compared to about 35% of local students who are a waste of space in the class room. If that offends anybody, sorry, but that is my personal experience.

And I agree. I've seen them all, from the hard working stereotypical over achieving Asians to the daddy sponsored time wasters. All I'm saying is that instead of arranging everybody according to what level they are, either treat them all the same, or have 2 levels: High risk (ETA countries) and low risk (non-ETA countries)

A Vietnamese is considered Level 2 while Chinese are considered Level 4 and people from HK SAR are considered Level 1. What I think is that all 3 of them are equally high risk.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
Australia has a long and deep history of only wanting 'white', European immigration (so did the USA). They fear a massive influx of people from throughout Asia who would use student visas to stay in Australia rather than go back to their home countries overwhelmingly changing the traditional European mix of people there. By placing onorous financial and technical requirements on such person more likely to use student visas for permanate immigration, they hope to limit them becoming residents and later citizens. I recall when I visited Australia in 1989 ( I am from the USA) I had to get a tourist visa which also required modest financial proof, a outbound travel ticket and no criminal records (especially drug crimes).

While it does have that past, what Australia can do is to stop that route to permanent residency. I don't see why they *need* to make it easier for people to immigrate by doing a crappy degree from an unknown institution.

I have visited Australia, and I don't care if it offends, but Sydney feels like it's actually downtown Shanghai and Mumbai.

[Edited 2009-12-17 04:03:24 by cabso1]
 
Stealthz
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:01 pm



Quoting Cabso1 (Thread starter):
Due to my nationality,

Cabso, what is your nationality?

From what I understand of the Dept Immigration and Citizenship's form 1219i Cook Islands students should rank level 3 and taking into account the relationship with NZ possibly level 2.

Having said that the government reserves the right to vary the assessment levels based on visa compliance records...

Quote:
To determine the Assessment Level of a particular country and education sector, the department examines that group's compliance with their visa conditions and other indicators of their immigration risk in the previous year.

Where these statistical indicators show that a group has a higher level of immigration risk over a sustained period, the department responds to this trend by raising the Assessment Level of that group. In effect, this requires applicants to submit a higher level of evidence to support their claims that they wish to study in Australia.

The part that probably hurts you is the section I highlighted, statistics so beloved of bureaucrats do not help the cause of a sample group as small as Cook Islands students must be. If a couple of your countrymen violated their visa conditions it would skew the stats far more than a larger number from some other countries.
There are student "enclaves" in Sydney and Melbourne with national groups larger than the entire population of the Cook Islands.

I am not saying this is a good situation or that it is fair to you but just the way it is.

Hope you find a way to study.

Cheers

P.S. the "Racism" in the title did cause the defensive juices to flow!
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cabso1
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:08 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):

:D I'm sorry, because my flag misled you. I've just spend six months in NZ but I didn't want to put an NZ flag (for a totally pedantic reason) so I opted for the Cook Islands.

I'm actually Pakistani, and I live in both Singapore and Malaysia.

With regards to your point, yes unfortunately that's the way it is. When a select few do not obey the rules, the entire population has to pay.

I stress to anyone reading this thread, I am only complaining about the disparity between the nationalities and levels of immigration. I just wish for Australia to treat everyone similarly, because someone from a Level 1 nation has just as much a chance to violate their conditions of visa.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:17 pm



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 6):

:D I'm sorry, because my flag misled you. I've just spend six months in NZ but I didn't want to put an NZ flag (for a totally pedantic reason) so I opted for the Cook Islands.

I'm actually Pakistani, and I live in both Singapore and Malaysia.

Theres your answer... quite simply Australia is so popular a place to either live or study in that they can afford to pick and choose who they let in, and be careful in doing so. If you were really from the Cook Islands you could have gone to Australia via New Zealand as Cook Islanders have free entry into New Zealand.
Plain and simple statistical information would let you see that Pakistani citizens have a disproportionate rate of either overstaying in Australia or abusing their Visa's in some form or other. Now whilst this is probably not you or many Pakistani's, the sheer fact that Pakistani or citizens of several particular countries do violate their visas means Australia and several other Western countries are more careful on who they let in.
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Stealthz
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:17 pm



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 6):
because someone from a Level 1 nation has just as much a chance to violate their conditions of visa.

But they don't!
I don't have the stats but I am pretty sure the dept has the details that say you are wrong.

Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 4):
I have visited Australia, and I don't care if it offends, but Sydney feels like it's actually downtown Shanghai and Mumbai.

With all due respect, now who is sounding racist?
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ltbewr
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:25 pm



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 6):
I'm actually Pakistani, and I live in both Singapore and Malaysia.

That is another issues and indeed racist. I would suggest that Australia has a deep fear of anyone from a mainly Islamic faith country, (Bali Bombings killing many Australians) fearful of terrorism and a faith not of the traditional Judeo-Christian. As a result, the politicans are answering to thier voters to limit access to anyone from 'Islamic' countries.
 
baroque
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:30 pm

Then again we could go to a system of giving you a dictation test with the reader speaking in Welsh - Celtic that is.

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/australia/pdf/populating_aus.pdf

Meanwhile

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
LTBEWR

might like to catch up with the 1960s.

StealthZ is all too right, we have excellent stats on many countries, but maybe not so good on the Cook Is. It is true however, that even after the stats are in some decisions to not fully adhere to what the stats would tell you. For example, overstayers are very low from Indonesia, but you would not guess it from the palaver for Indonesian nationals.

Equally, if there were a factor applied for financial finanglings, there would be probably be a discount applied to mainland Chinese. But that might be a grumpy remark prompted by an horrific murder in Sydney about 5 months ago.

Basically you are objecting to immigration being based on paying through the nose for it, and there you would have the support of most Australians.

If you want to follow a really sad tale try the trilogy of films made by Robin Anderson and Bob Connolly

First contact, Joe Leahy's neighbours and Black Harvest.

At one stage Joe has a successful coffee plantation and a shared venture with local tribesmen, then he has a doubtful joint venture and acceptance as a business migrant on the basis of the value of his plantation and at the end of Black Harvest he has a civil war, the banks foreclosed on his loans and he lost his migrant status.

http://aso.gov.au/titles/documentaries/black-harvest/clip2/

Hope things are better for you Cabso1
 
Stealthz
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:39 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
That is another issues and indeed racist. I would suggest that Australia has a deep fear of anyone from a mainly Islamic faith country

No it isn't and your suggestion would be misplaced, Australian immigration does not discriminate on the basis of religion.

If you were familiar with the numbers of Middle Easter and South Asian immigrants of Islamic backgrounds that do meet the immigration requirements you would not have made that claim.

In fact if you looked at the assessment levels of different countries you will find many Muslim countries with lower assessment levels than some non-muslim countries, eg Malaysia level 1, Indonesia Level 2.

Pakistan being level 4 has little(nothing) to do with it being a Muslim nation but more to do with visa compliance.
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baroque
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:17 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 6):
I'm actually Pakistani, and I live in both Singapore and Malaysia.

That is another issues and indeed racist. I would suggest that Australia has a deep fear of anyone from a mainly Islamic faith country, (Bali Bombings killing many Australians) fearful of terrorism and a faith not of the traditional Judeo-Christian. As a result, the politicians are answering to their voters to limit access to anyone from 'Islamic' countries.

Well dead wrong there. I can tell you from personal experience there is no hostility to Muslims, indeed almost the opposite a polite curiosity.

I got three seasons greetings cards yesterday. One was an official Atheists society card, one was from a Muslim family and the third from a Buddhist family. Two of the cards from from Aus and one from the US. You have to guess the rest.

Where the hell is that traditional Judeo-Christian whatsit - I know it was somewhere!  angel 

Anyway, suggest away as much as you like. We considerably admire the efforts of Detachment 88. And do you know why the anti-terrorist detachment of the Indonesian police are called Detachment 88? It is supposed to be because that is how many Australians were killed in the Bai I bombings.

Just like Americans, we really hate Indonesia, it being a Muslim dominated country and all:

http://www.expat.or.id/info/howmanyexpatsinindonesia.html

And some time after the May 1998 riots, expat numbers in Indonesia were reported as:

* 8,000-12,000 Americans, living mostly in Jakarta
* 20,000 Australians (though DFAT says 8,000 in Jakarta & 4,000 in Bali)
* 3,300 French; estimated 2,300 of them in Jakarta
* 4,000 British
* 500 Thais
* 10,000-11,000 South Koreans
* Japanese ????


AND
In 2004, immigration figures showed just under 1500 expatriates living in Bandung.

In June 2004, the manpower ministry relased data that the number of expatriates working in Indonesia had drastically decreased to around 17,000 in Dec. 2003, from 50,000 in 1999.

An online spreadsheet at the Manpower Ministry (which is now offline) shows the 2005 total of expatriates listed as 50,900 expatriates working in Indonesia!


Don't miss the hysterical line from the Malaysian Embassy.
 
cabso1
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:52 pm

Funnily enough, while preparing my answer, I've come across this: Stats as at 2005 http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publica...ng-the-border/pdf/mtb-chapter5.pdf While I understand this is not the way in which assessment levels are determined, or in any means definitive, it's funny how Greece, an assessment level 1 country has the 3rd highest overstayer rate. And might I add, Pakistan is not even on the list in any form. Oh and here too: http://www.visabureau.com/australia/...-overstayers-are-english-lads.aspx

It's the perception that because such and such is from Asia, they have a higher probability of staying back in the country. And while this may be true some of the times (as it might be in the case of Pakistan or India), it's not a definitive answer to imposing what is effectively an embargo on students coming in.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Theres your answer... quite simply Australia is so popular a place to either live or study in that they can afford to pick and choose who they let in, and be careful in doing so. If you were really from the Cook Islands you could have gone to Australia via New Zealand as Cook Islanders have free entry into New Zealand.
Plain and simple statistical information would let you see that Pakistani citizens have a disproportionate rate of either overstaying in Australia or abusing their Visa's in some form or other. Now whilst this is probably not you or many Pakistani's, the sheer fact that Pakistani or citizens of several particular countries do violate their visas means Australia and several other Western countries are more careful on who they let in.

Not too sure on this, but if I was from the Cook Isles, I'd probably be entitled to NZ Citizenship, which would then mean I wouldn't need a visa to be in Australia.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 8):
Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 4):
I have visited Australia, and I don't care if it offends, but Sydney feels like it's actually downtown Shanghai and Mumbai.

With all due respect, now who is sounding racist?

I'm not sure if that is racist, I'm merely commenting on the ethnic make up of Sydney. If that is racist, my bad  Smile

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 8):
Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 6):
because someone from a Level 1 nation has just as much a chance to violate their conditions of visa.

But they don't!
I don't have the stats but I am pretty sure the dept has the details that say you are wrong.

Bad wording, was rushing out of the door. I think what I meant to say was, that they are prone to overstaying. It's funny how a country, which is classed as Level 1 in Australia, has the record of the highest number of overstayers in New Zealand.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 6):
I'm actually Pakistani, and I live in both Singapore and Malaysia.

That is another issues and indeed racist. I would suggest that Australia has a deep fear of anyone from a mainly Islamic faith country, (Bali Bombings killing many Australians) fearful of terrorism and a faith not of the traditional Judeo-Christian. As a result, the politicans are answering to thier voters to limit access to anyone from 'Islamic' countries.

Sorry, I do not believe that. In fact I refuse to believe that, Australia is by no means racist. For the 10 days that I was there, what I saw was people living in harmony. No one said anything out of the blue, except a drunk from the pub, who well, was drunk so I can't that against Australia. People are not racist, and they should raise the racist flag as they deem fit.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Hope things are better for you Cabso1



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
Hope you find a way to study.

Thank you. I'm not holding anything against the country, just against other Pakistanis who choose to exploit the country's hospitality and 'ruin the statistics'.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:27 pm



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 13):
Not too sure on this, but if I was from the Cook Isles, I'd probably be entitled to NZ Citizenship, which would then mean I wouldn't need a visa to be in Australia.

Cook Islanders are New Zealand Citizens and are therefore entitled to a New Zealand passport. So if you were lucky enough to be a Cook Islander instead of Pakistani then you wouldn't have the problem you have now.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:38 pm

It not fun to park that amont of money in an account but as others have said that rule is there for a reason.
Being Pakistani isnt easy when it comes to any form of migration. Even for student visas.
Mind you, having worked several conferences I can understand why the Australians have these rules.
When I was part of the organising comittee for one of AsiaPacifics largest IT conferences we got about 100 inquiries for attendence from Pakistan during the first three days.
Apparently that was the norm and NZ immigration rejected the lot on the basis that most would simply overstay and werent genuine attendees.
Its sad that other Pakistanis are doing such things because it really destroys the oppurtunities for the ones that follow the rules. Only Bangladeshis and Nigerians were screened harder than pakistan by NZIS at that time.

Also when it comes to Pakistan and immigration, I think the Pakistani that arrived in the UK have given Pakistan a bad rep internationally. Add on the madrassas etc and there will always be strict rules for Pakistanis.

In regards to Greek, Chinese and Indians that overstay. There numbers might be high but the number of nationals from these countries that behave are very high as well. Besides China and to a lesser degree India is big business in education for Australia and NZ and will be treated differently to others. The shear numbers of students ensures that.
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Flighty
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Rac

Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:14 pm

They are concerned that certain countries ovrstay their visa. Far from bring a racist policy, it is a reflection that people from different countries have different probabilities of compliance with Australian law. If people from your country have burned Australia in the past, go to them with your critique. But even America is much more permissive. Virtually any student is allowed to come in.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:48 pm



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
Besides China and to a lesser degree India is big business in education for Australia and NZ and will be treated differently to others. The shear numbers of students ensures that.

But they aren't treated differently despite the large number of students and the perceived importance to the economy India and China* are assessed at Level 4 as is Pakistan.

Cheers

* Except for the 2 SARs , Hong Kong and Macau which are level 1
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Springbok747
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:05 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Plain and simple statistical information would let you see that Pakistani citizens have a disproportionate rate of either overstaying in Australia or abusing their Visa's in some form or other. Now whilst this is probably not you or many Pakistani's, the sheer fact that Pakistani or citizens of several particular countries do violate their visas means Australia and several other Western countries are more careful on who they let in.

That is unfortunately true. I used to work at the International office in our uni in Adelaide and I've personally come across 5 students from Pakistan who've overstayed on their visas. Also the fact that many students from the sub-continent (esp. India) come here on student visas but never attend classes because they're working full-time at the local 7-11.

Another popular scam is to find someone coming to study in Australia (usually a girl), and pay her $50-100,000, get married on paper, get a spouse visa and once here they go their seperate ways...this leads to all kinds of crappy people entering the country, because on a spouse visa you don't have to do IELTS etc etc. This scam is very popular among Indians here.

All these scams have led to a tightening of the immigration system, especially with student visas because they want to make sure the people entering the country on a student visa are genuine students with an intention and the commitment to study.

Anyway..hope you can find a way to study here in Oz Cabso1..good luck!

[Edited 2009-12-17 14:08:09]
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sccutler
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:25 pm

At the risk of being obvious, I wonder what is wrong with Australia exercising her sovereignty in choosing whom to admit as immigrants and extended-stay students?

I think it improbable that the Australian government is doing what they do for any reason relating to race, but they may be doing so based upon cultural issues. In any event, it would be incumbent upon an Australian citizen to complain to the duly-elected government, as they owe no duty, of any kind, to anyone else.
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sr117
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:53 pm

Simply put, if fate deems that you be born in a country which will give you an undesirable passport, you're out of luck. Things like going abroad to study or simply on vacation can be much more difficult for you than for other people. Other countries have the right to impose as many hoops as they deem fit. Is it fair? I don't really know, but nobody said the world was fair. It's troublesome enough to live in the developing world, yet one is also sometimes treated like a criminal simply because of the place where you were born.

That said, you are free to choose a country which will make things easier on you, and that is what I suggest you do.

As a Mexican, Australia makes it a bit of a hassle for me to obtain a tourist visa, they have the right and their reasons to do so, but I am also free to choose to spend my time and tourist dollars in countries where I am welcomed without such troubles (and that is what I do).

Good luck applying or choosing somewhere more suitable for you !
 
RussianJet
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 pm



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 13):
Thank you. I'm not holding anything against the country, just against other Pakistanis who choose to exploit the country's hospitality and 'ruin the statistics'.



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 4):
True, and it's not. It's the fault of the people who have abused the immigration system in Australia.

 checkmark 
My friend, it is very commendable that you can say and understand that. Despite the obstacles you may face, I wish you the very best of luck.
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Rara
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:45 pm

Racism means assuming certain qualities in a person based on their ethnic background, doesn't it?

By that definition, it does sound like Australia's handling of foreign student visas is racist. A Pakistani student, only by merit of her origin, faces barriers designed to keep her out of the country if possible. Even though she may personally be extremely motivated, the system works against her because of her origin.

Most countries have discriminating policies against certain foreign nationals. I just to imagine the ordeal my girlfriend has to go through in order to study here (she's Chinese).

I don't really see how to do it otherwise though. A certain degree of discrimination is obviously necessary for practical reasons, and yes, it's inherently racist. There's nothing we can do about it, but we need to be aware of it and not try to deny it like some members in this thread try to do.
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Springbok747
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:13 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
By that definition, it does sound like Australia's handling of foreign student visas is racist.

No it isn't! Its not based on race/ethinicity but on hard facts. Whether the OP likes it or not, he is the citizen of a country classified as 'assessment level 4', and statistics have shown that some citizens of those countries have at some stage or other, violated the student visa policies more so than citizens of assessment level 1 countries. Therefore, these rules have been put in place.

For example, for university studies, Botswana is classified as 'assessment level 1', which means the risk of a citizen of Botswana violating the visa policies is very low. If the Dept. of Immigration was racist and looking to grant entry only to caucasian people (as some people have suggested here), then why would they classify an African country as 'level 1'?

It has nothing to do with race/ethnicity/gender etc..but more so with immigration risk posed by applicants from a particular country studying in a particular education sector.
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RussianJet
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:20 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
Racism means assuming certain qualities in a person based on their ethnic background, doesn't it?

By that definition, it does sound like Australia's handling of foreign student visas is racist.

Nonsense. As Springbok747 describes, it is based on proven risk factors. It is no different from the fact that some nationalities require visas to visit Schengen countries yet others don't.
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cabso1
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:03 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
Being Pakistani isnt easy when it comes to any form of migration. Even for student visas.
Mind you, having worked several conferences I can understand why the Australians have these rules.
When I was part of the organising comittee for one of AsiaPacifics largest IT conferences we got about 100 inquiries for attendence from Pakistan during the first three days.
Apparently that was the norm and NZ immigration rejected the lot on the basis that most would simply overstay and werent genuine attendees.
Its sad that other Pakistanis are doing such things because it really destroys the oppurtunities for the ones that follow the rules. Only Bangladeshis and Nigerians were screened harder than pakistan by NZIS at that time.

It's sad. Unfortunately, these attempts will increase due to today's political and economical climate. A select few are the cause of distress for genuine travellers. Unfortunately, in the case of Pakistan, it seems like the genuine travellers are the select few and the overstayers/lawbreakers are vast majority.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
Also when it comes to Pakistan and immigration, I think the Pakistani that arrived in the UK have given Pakistan a bad rep internationally. Add on the madrassas etc and there will always be strict rules for Pakistanis.

I agree, the Pakistani ghettos in London and Birmingham aren't doing the country any favours. Nor did the 7/7 bombers.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
Virtually any student is allowed to come in.

As is evidenced in the 9/11 attacks. Despite all that, students still flock to the US, mainly because there are a ton of universities and educational establishments in the US compared to any other nation.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 18):
That is unfortunately true. I used to work at the International office in our uni in Adelaide and I've personally come across 5 students from Pakistan who've overstayed on their visas. Also the fact that many students from the sub-continent (esp. India) come here on student visas but never attend classes because they're working full-time at the local 7-11.

What's worse is that a lot of those students who breach their visa conditions work in other migrants' stores who turn a blind eye towards to the maximum 20 working hours, and in turn pay the students less than the minimum wage. I know of one such store in Auckland, the owner pays students NZD400 per week for 10 hour days, 6 days a week. That violates a whole bunch of laws.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 20):
Simply put, if fate deems that you be born in a country which will give you an undesirable passport, you're out of luck. Things like going abroad to study or simply on vacation can be much more difficult for you than for other people. Other countries have the right to impose as many hoops as they deem fit. Is it fair? I don't really know, but nobody said the world was fair. It's troublesome enough to live in the developing world, yet one is also sometimes treated like a criminal simply because of the place where you were born.

That said, you are free to choose a country which will make things easier on you, and that is what I suggest you do.

As a Mexican, Australia makes it a bit of a hassle for me to obtain a tourist visa, they have the right and their reasons to do so, but I am also free to choose to spend my time and tourist dollars in countries where I am welcomed without such troubles (and that is what I do).

Good luck applying or choosing somewhere more suitable for you !

Gracias. I wonder how my Mexican visa will pan out next week. La embajada de Mexíco en Singapur tells me that I should apply 5 weeks in advance as I need clearance from the National Institute of Migration in Mexico. Why? Because stupid Pakistanis choose to go to Mexico and then go into the US illegally. I should not be subject to the same scrutiny because I already have an American visa, and funnily enough I will be going to Veracruz via LAX.

I really should change my nationality. Anyone willing to adopt me?  Wink

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
My friend, it is very commendable that you can say and understand that. Despite the obstacles you may face, I wish you the very best of luck.

Many thanks, Спасибо.

Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
By that definition, it does sound like Australia's handling of foreign student visas is racist. A Pakistani student, only by merit of her origin, faces barriers designed to keep her out of the country if possible. Even though she may personally be extremely motivated, the system works against her because of her origin.

While it may seem like that, it's not. As said before, I only used the word racist to spark debate and discussion. People raise the racist flag way too often.

If Australia was truly a racist nation, and had views akin to the BNP, there wouldn't be any student visas to begin with and non-white people wouldn't be allowed entry. The only reason why I'm facing such a huge problem, is because people of my nationality choose to abuse the system. I am a dual citizen, my other nationality being Sri Lankan, and guess what? It's also Level 4. It's in my fate to be subject to horrid immigration rules and be ridiculed at the expense of others who are selfish, and look out for their own interests.
 
jcs17
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:35 am

Let's remove Australia from this equation.

Insert Iceland (for comparisons sake).

An Indonesian and a Pakistani want to study in Iceland.

One of those countries has a very high rate of people asking for asylum once they reach the airport... Pakistan. One of those countries has a history of a lack of integration into local culture... Pakistan. One of those countries a major history of intolerance in countries they've immigrated to.... Pakistan.

Sure, there have been Indonesian terrorists that have murdered Aussies, but the vast majority of Indonesians don't believe nutty theories like that Israel perpetrated 9/11... In Pakistan the percentage that believe that anti-Semetic conspiracy crap is 88%. My first question to you would be do you believe that, even if your degree is not on the line? Furthermore, why Australia? Not the UK or Canada, where a single-celled organism can get a student visa.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:34 am



Quoting Jcs17 (Reply 26):
Insert Iceland (for comparisons sake).

I'd use Norway, one of the biggest immigrant groups in Norway are Pakistanis and they are probably the least intergrated and the biggest trouble makers in the country.
 
cabso1
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Rac

Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:41 am



Quoting Jcs17 (Reply 26):
One of those countries has a very high rate of people asking for asylum once they reach the airport... Pakistan. One of those countries has a history of a lack of integration into local culture... Pakistan. One of those countries a major history of intolerance in countries they've immigrated to.... Pakistan.

I'm part of the minority there. I believe that people don't be allowed to immigrate/travel if: a. They can't speak English / language of their adopted country b. They have a problem with the culture of their adopted country c. They're scared that the locals might eat them if they choose to speak to them d. They dress in full terrorist gear e. They live in their ghettos and not amongst the locals f. They choose to be unemployed and live on public welfare g. They bitch and cringe about their adopted country h. They love their own country (go back!) i. They miss their relatives (go back!) j. They call their country of origin their first country, and the adopted country, their second (again, go back, the world doesn't need you)

By the by, Indonesians may not ask for asylum but I know a lot of Indonesians who choose to stick to their own culture and friend group. Hell, a friend of mine is Indonesian, speaks perfect English and he still chooses to hang out with his Indonesian buddies in the US.

Quoting Jcs17 (Reply 26):
Sure, there have been Indonesian terrorists that have murdered Aussies, but the vast majority of Indonesians don't believe nutty theories like that Israel perpetrated 9/11... In Pakistan the percentage that believe that anti-Semetic conspiracy crap is 88%. My first question to you would be do you believe that, even if your degree is not on the line? Furthermore, why Australia? Not the UK or Canada, where a single-celled organism can get a student visa.

Actually, look around. One finds all kinds of nutters, religious nutters are aplenty. You'll find Americans who think all Muslims are terrorists, hell, you'll find Americans who think the world is flat, Iran's an island and Australia's the size of Hong Kong. The point is, if you pull a statistic that 88% of the population believe the theory of Jews crashing planes on 9/11 out of your ass, I can't take you seriously. Yes, I know people who believe in that crap. And No, I don't believe in it. Someone's going to make stuff up, fabricate a percentage and then other people (such as yourself) are going to believe it. There is no accuracy in that or proof to suggest that that's true.

FYI, the majority of Pakistanis aren't gun wielding anti-Semitic terrorists. Most of them live below the poverty line, wondering about how they're going to get together enough money to make their next meal or how Pakistani politicians are going to ruin their country. Those who do live above the poverty line, are obsessed with western culture, so much so that they wouldn't dream of believing any conspiracy theories in case their application to go to the US/UK is jeopardised. And even if their visa wasn't on the line, no, they still wouldn't believe in anything the Islamist freaks tell them to believe in. I may not be a patriot, and I may hate Pakistan for what it has become, but I sure as hell am not gonna take flack from someone who only knows Pakistan from the news. Each time I go back there, the development surprises me but it's unfortunate that we are judged on the basis of what overstayers do or what some religious nut is doing over in India in the name of Islam / Pakistan.

And lastly, I am interested in Australia because it's a new place for me, I want to travel around the Pacific / Australia, take the train to Perth, do all the tourist stuff but slowly. UNSW is a fantastic business university, what more could I want? I've already lived in the UK (and I can't get into Oxbridge or LSE, the only 3 places I would want to go in the UK), and to me, Canada just a more freezing version of the US (haven't been to Canada but that's just my perception), don't like the university system in the US, I think that exhausts the top 5 list. Don't like the attitude to education in Singapore. I was going to go to the University of Auckland in July but their disability policy of only allowing amanuensis and not a computer, as I have a physical disability following an accident last year that makes it difficult for me to write for extended periods of time.

All I wanted to know was the reason for Australia's disparity between different nationalities, not start a bloody flame war and make comparisons between Indonesians and Pakistanis. I've lived in 7 different countries, and I sure as hell didn't get to each of them by abusing them or breaking the law or by not assimilating with the local people.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Rant:Australian Student Visas - Modern Day Racism?

Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:31 am

The point with most immigrants that came to Europe in the 60, 70 ies etc were that they were generally uneducated.
The turks that ventured to germany often came from Anatolia and hardly had any schooling.
When uneducated migrants come they have tended to find it harder to integrate. Pakistanis in Norway, Denmark and the UK are prime examples of this.

May I ask what part of Pakistan youre from.
Its obvious that coming from certain provinces will make it harder. Being Sindhi from an established family is easier than coming from the NWP for example...

I have a bangladeshi collegue, and Bangladeshis probably find it as hard as Pakistanis.
Many of her familymembers are studying abroad. They prefer overseas education and their family have a history of generations that have gone overseas for their education. They have always gone back home to work within the family business.

They used a smart shortcut to get into the UK (their family have a history of always going to the UK dating back to the times of the empire) or Australia (The two familymembers with low grades that werent deemed able to handle a UK education).
They sent some of their familymembers to Malaysia and the franchised universities there and did foundation and the first two years of their degree. British and Australian universities have campuses there. Then they went on to the UK (University of Nottingham) or to Australia (Monash, Victoria or Curtin) to complete their Bachelor degrees.
That might be something worth looking into.

When we speak about this we should remember that Australia is rather upfront about immigration. Many times have I heard expressions like "calling a spade a spade" uttered by Australians.
Its perhaps not what many deem politically correct but its their country so the choices are theirs.
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