Falcon84
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Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:04 pm

Sen. Ben Nelson jumped on board today, and now the Dems have the 60 votes needed to move the Health Care Reform measure forward in the Senate.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/19/health.care/index.html

It isn't a perfect bill, far from it, but it is a good first step. Of course, the GOP is huffing and puffing on the sideline. The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform. They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

Your comments.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:27 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform.

Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

http://rules-republicans.house.gov/M...DF/RepublicanAlternative3962_9.pdf

Following are the key elements of Republicans’ alternative plan:
• Lowering health care premiums. The GOP plan will lower health care premiums for American families and small businesses, addressing Americans’ number-one priority for health care reform.
• Establishing Universal Access Programs to guarantee access to affordable health care for those with pre-existing conditions. The GOP plan creates Universal Access Programs that expand and reform high-risk pools and reinsurance programs to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of pre-existing conditions or past illnesses, have access to affordable care – while lowering costs for all Americans.
• Ending junk lawsuits. The GOP plan would help end costly junk lawsuits and curb defensive medicine by enacting medical liability reforms modeled after the successful state laws of California and Texas.
• Prevents insurers from unjustly cancelling a policy. The GOP plan prohibits an insurer from cancelling a policy unless a person commits fraud or conceals material facts about a health condition.
• Encouraging Small Business Health Plans. The GOP plan gives small businesses the power to pool together and offer health care at lower prices, just as corporations and labor unions do.
• Encouraging innovative state programs. The GOP plan rewards innovation by providing incentive payments to states that reduce premiums and the number of uninsured.
• Allowing Americans to buy insurance across state lines. The GOP plan allows Americans to shop for coverage from coast to coast by allowing Americans living in one state to purchase insurance in another.
• Promoting healthier lifestyles. The GOP plan promotes prevention & wellness by giving employers greater flexibility to financially reward employees who adopt healthier lifestyles.
• Enhancing Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). The GOP plan creates new incentives to save for current and future health care needs by allowing qualified participants to use HSA funds to pay premiums for high deductible health insurance.
• Allowing dependents to remain on their parents’ policies. The GOP plan encourages coverage of young adults on their parents’ insurance through age 25.

Cost of the GOP plan - virtually Zero.

Right now, public support for the Democratic plan is in the 30-percent range. You think it's such a wonderful idea to spend so much more money for a plan that does NOTHING to reduce medical costs, and covers only a fraction of the uninsured and raises the insurance costs for all Americans who are responsible and pay their own insurance?

I guess you must be the kind of person who, in response to losing his job, goes on a spending spree.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
gatorfan
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:33 pm

Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

Health insurance premiums will go up.

Insurance companies limited to 20% gross profits (before expenses) - get ready for bankruptcies and then the required bailouts of the bankrupt insurance companies.

Senate leadership literally having to bribe Senators to support the bill.

Over 50% of the American public oppose the bill.

I think all this speaks for itself.
 
LMP737
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It isn't a perfect bill, far from it, but it is a good first step. Of course, the GOP is huffing and puffing on the sideline. The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform. They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

Your comments.

As are the democrats if this all goes south. There needs to be reform in the way health care in the US is run. However when you see the mess that is Medicare you have to wonder if about the unforeseen.
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Ken777
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:28 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Ending junk lawsuits.

As well as valid ones.

The problem for defendants is that juries can get pissed. The GOP answer is to ensure that the juries never have the power they have had for generations.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
The GOP plan prohibits an insurer from cancelling a policy unless a person commits fraud or conceals material facts about a health condition.

Insurance companies are already experts at deciding there was concealed information and niggeling out of paying. One reason why juries are still important in this country.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Encouraging Small Business Health Plans.

Let's try one price for everyone.

You can go back to, say, the 50s and work up a valid reason why volume discounts were viable. The clerical costs of smaller customers were greater than larger ones.

Today the world is different. With computers and the internet around there is no valid claim that it costs more to take care of the small company or individual.

Medicare Supplement policies are the best example around. You can go to the internet and get all the information you need. I got information on the various plans (and chose Plan F), got consumer grading on each company as well as costs at each company and any odd terms. I was able to pick the policy and insurance company while having a cup of coffee with the notebook in my lap. It just happened that my best option was from the company that covers my house and car so I called the agent and he was delighted to write up the policy.

For Plan D coverage I went to a local senior's center as that changes every year. It also provides some support for the center.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Enhancing Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). The GOP plan creates new incentives to save for current and future health care needs by allowing qualified participants to use HSA funds to pay premiums for high deductible health insurance.

Wouldn't it be interesting to allow a full deduction for all medical expenses? Sure it would, but don't look for it to happen. HSA's make financial companies money off of them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Cost of the GOP plan - virtually Zero.

Sure. The hidden cost will be in the benefits to the insurance company.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Insurance companies limited to 20% gross profits (before expenses) - get ready for bankruptcies and then the required bailouts of the bankrupt insurance companies.

Don't see a problem as most first rate companies are already there. If a few of the poorer performers leave then the good ones will simply move in and take over the business.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Senate leadership literally having to bribe Senators to support the bill.

A few Senators were more aggressive than others, but is that anything new? Do you really believe that no Republican senators have ever played that game?
 
Cadet57
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:45 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

That plan is BRILLIANT. It is what REALLY needs to be done. Not this BS plan they are forcing now.
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Moose135
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:50 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:13 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

Well, I guess you can consider that anyone who votes either way on this is taking a political risk. Obviously that doesn't apply to people who just vote "present" for the big ones, but that's a story for another day.  Wink Harry Reid is pretty much committing suicide over it.

It appears the GOP is echoing the opinion of the majority of Americans in opposing this whale turd of a bill:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124715/Ma...s-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx
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D L X
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:24 pm



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

Kind of like lowering taxes at the start of a war?

Just a thought. Why don't we all stop oversimplifying the tax situation. I know it requires turning on your brains, but there are plenty of instances where the counterintuitive answer is the correct one. Kind of like steering into the skid.
 
seb146
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:58 pm



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Health insurance premiums will go up.

They will go up one way or another. It is what the big insurance companies will do to "teach us a lesson." They will raise rates, then say "See? This is what happens when government steps in!" Just wait.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession.

Boo freakin' hoo.... Bush LOWERED taxes then borrowed from China, Japan, and Saudi Arabia to fund his war as well as keeping the country running and No Child Left Behind. Everyone supporting the Republican party would cry and whine and pout unless their GOP leaders raised taxes. Then, it would make perfect sense.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 3):
However when you see the mess that is Medicare you have to wonder if about the unforeseen.

What mess would that be? The doctors caring for Medicare patients or Congress borrowing against the future of Medicare?

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

Many, many of us non-Republicans have been asking this same question since day one. Not one peep has been heard out of the right on this. All we hear is "Well, this Democratic bill is nothing but socialism and we should stop it!" Well, here we go again: Why didn't the Republicans do anything?
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NIKV69
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:13 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform. They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one

This is such BS. Just because the GOP didn't agree with the high taxing super spending bill to give people health care. Which if the GOP AND your moderate Dems didn't speak up against that disaster public option would have been terrible for us. You guys passed a bill just for the sake of passing a bill. There was no reason this couldn't have waited till after the holiday. It was political posturing and nothing more.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

They don't care they can cue up the "we inherited a mess" soundbyte they will be using right up until they lose a ton of seats this Nov and until Nov 2012 when Obama is shown the door. Dems don't want people to keep what they make. They want them to give half of it back so everyone can have the same.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 7):
Harry Reid is pretty much committing suicide over it.

Doesn't matter he was losing this November regardless of this bill.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:34 am



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Insurance companies limited to 20% gross profits (before expenses) - get ready for bankruptcies and then the required bailouts of the bankrupt insurance companies.

I am actually not against such regulation. If the industry is handed a mandate to insure everyone, then the balance has to be something in this form to prevent the insurance industry from screwing everyone.

However that still does not answer the constitutional challenge. This bill is clearly unconstitutional, and an amendment must be proposed. But then the Dems gon't give a sh%t about the Constitution anyway...

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

No question the Republicans lost the plot for several years - which is why they are in trouble with voters as well. Consider that in a three-way Generic Ballot poll, scientifically conducted, the fictional, non-existant Tea Party gets nearly twice the votes as the GOP.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ps_gop_on_three_way_generic_ballot

In the two-way poll, the GOP beats the Dems 44% to 37%.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...erica/generic_congressional_ballot

But both show that people are recoiling from the Democrat Party.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):

You have some valid comments and objections. The GOP plan is far from perfect, but has not been the subject of any debate or amendment process.

But the best feature of the GOP is that it does not require the funneling of more money through Washington. We, the American people, do not want more of our money being sucked up into the federal government. Enough is enough! Stop the spending!
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Falcon84
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:35 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):

That plan is BRILLIANT.

If you REALLY believe anything any political party does is BRILLIANT, you have a huge problem, right there. The GOP plan wants to protect their interests-which are the insurance companies (by not letting them get sued), and business, and it wouldn't do squat for anyone else.

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

It's because, as I said, they don't want reform. They like things as they are, which benefit their constituents, which include the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

Kind of like lowering taxes at the start of a war?

Exactly.
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gatorfan
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:41 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
I am actually not against such regulation. If the industry is handed a mandate to insure everyone, then the balance has to be something in this form to prevent the insurance industry from screwing everyone.

A 20% gross profit margin is actually quite low. What people don't realize is that by forcing the insurance companies to pay out 80% of their premium dollars on an annual basis, they can't build any equity reserve, plus fund capital acquisitions, plus provide a return to shareholders. This limit is a backdoor nationalization. The private companies will go bankrupt, be bailed out and nationalized.

5 years after this goes into effect the government will own the health insurance companies. How will that be different than what Hugo Chavez does?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:57 am



Quoting Gatorfan (Reply 13):
What people don't realize is that by forcing the insurance companies to pay out 80% of their premium dollars on an annual basis, they can't build any equity reserve,

They don't need to build that much - that what re-insurance is for, unfortunately a concept not commonly used in the US. Reinsurance should be a requirement, not an option, for insurance companies.

Also, the limitations appear to apply to ALL health insurance. This is WRONG. They should have defined a specific minimal insurance package which all people should have, and the restrictions would apply to that. If customers are willing to pay extra for extra coverage, like for dental, private rooms, etc., that should be entirely free-market based.

Quoting Gatorfan (Reply 13):
This limit is a backdoor nationalization. The private companies will go bankrupt, be bailed out and nationalized.

If this reform had been done with the proper provisions, I would disagree. It could be made to work, just as it works in Switzerland, for instance.

But as it is, this appears to be a Health Care bill that is specifically designed to fail, so that in 10 years there is so much chaos in the industry that the people would be more accepting of a public option, or even single-payer, just to refloat the boat. I think that is the purpose behind it.
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AGM100
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:10 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

I guess we will see about that.

The sad reality ..no one knows what is in the bill for sure . Its such a chaotic mess of pieces of this and pieces of that ..one thing for sure its 3 trillion dollars worth of cash out of our children's economy and into the Washington black hole. (That's just the first couple of years)

Good job Dem's ..... real creative .
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Cadet57
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:30 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
If you REALLY believe anything any political party does is BRILLIANT, you have a huge problem, right there. The GOP plan wants to protect their interests-which are the insurance companies (by not letting them get sued), and business, and it wouldn't do squat for anyone else.

Once again Falcon you prove how narrow minded you really are. I suppose if the GOP's plan had a big D plastered all over it you'd be all over it like white on rice saying how its the greatest thing ever. Let me know how all that "free" healthcare works out for ya when we're paying out the ass in taxes to pay for it. Let me give you a little example, here in Massachusetts, which, as im sure you know, has GOVERNMENT MANDATED health insurance. Because of this and over spending by out DEMOCRAT governor, we are now facing a 3 billion dollar deficit next year, not to mention my private health insurance costs doubling. Sound familiar? Whats even funnier, is our governor is buddy buddy with our President. Its like watching a bad movie.
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NIKV69
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:41 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 16):
Once again Falcon you prove how narrow minded you really are. I suppose if the GOP's plan had a big D plastered all over it you'd be all over it like white on rice saying how its the greatest thing ever. Let me know how all that "free" healthcare works out for ya when we're paying out the ass in taxes to pay for it. Let me give you a little example, here in Massachusetts, which, as im sure you know, has GOVERNMENT MANDATED health insurance. Because of this and over spending by out DEMOCRAT governor, we are now facing a 3 billion dollar deficit next year, not to mention my private health insurance costs doubling. Sound familiar? Whats even funnier, is our governor is buddy buddy with our President. Its like watching a bad movie.

Smoke and mirrors. Now what is even worse is the small businessman. Who doesn't list his company as a corp and files as a single guy will get killed in taxes. Now he lays people off and takes away health care he would have given his employees. When what the Dems should have done is forced big and small businesses to hire and give medical by huge tax holidays and breaks. All because they need to thump their chest and say "look we did something the GOP couldn't" I am sure glad the GOP never did anythng like this. It's a joke.
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WarRI1
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:49 am



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

That is the billion dollar question that the Republicans cannot answer, they are hypocrites of the worst kind, the Democrats are just as bad at times. At least we have a shot at some reform. As I said earlier, if it is so bad, why would the Democrats be that stupid as to guarantee defeat at the polls. Maybe, just maybe it will help, who knows, let us stop bitching and see what our esteemed congress does, that is Democracy in action, take your lumps and try to do something better to win the next election. I keep thinking of the Republican Contract with America. ??????????
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Falcon84
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:49 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 16):

We'll see how it shakes out in a few years, dude. And if if does work, and things get better, then what will you say?

As for me, I'm not worried about my health insurance. I'm really not. I think the righties in this country have just been so busy trying to scare the rest of the nation into trying to be against health insurance reform, that, in the process, they actually started to believe all the hooey they were pandering. I see you've bought into it.

Again, the GOP didn't want to change anything-it's easy, Charles, to put out a "plan" you know won't pass, as the GOP did. But they had the chance to push for it earlier this decade, but it wasn't important to them.
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WarRI1
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:59 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):

Smoke and mirrors. Now what is even worse is the small businessman. Who doesn't list his company as a corp and files as a single guy will get killed in taxes. Now he lays people off and takes away health care he would have given his employees. When what the Dems should have done is forced big and small businesses to hire and give medical by huge tax holidays and breaks. All because they need to thump their chest and say "look we did something the GOP couldn't" I am sure glad the GOP never did anythng like this. It's a joke.



My goodness, if we keep cutting taxes and giving tax breaks to business and the wealthy, who will pay all the taxes? I think we know who will, if there are any jobs to work and pay taxes with. Maybe we can levy a tax on Chinese workers who benefit the most from our illustrious business leaders and who also benefit from tax breaks. They do tend to be wealthy.  Sad
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Mir
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:18 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
it's easy, Charles, to put out a "plan" you know won't pass, as the GOP did.

More than that, it's easy to tout a plan that you know isn't going to have to go through the whole Congressional process, where it's going to be amended and changed considerably. I wonder how the GOP bill would look if it had to go through all the stuff that the Democrat bill did.

-Mir
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AvObserver
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:28 am

Yes, the GOP dropped the ball on reform when they had power but this is no true reform, either. Without tort reform in the process and a virtual lockout of the GOP in the planning, this is partisan politics at its worst. Sure, Republicans were as arrogant when they had the helm but is that an excuse for Democrats to irresponsibly shove this down our collective throats, especially when polls show most of the public doesn't want it? The mad rush to throw any sort of bill together to make the holiday recess is blatantly irresponsible, particularly when the leadership of both houses gives the members hardly any time to read the final bills before a vote. The outrage of surely extending coverage to illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense, given Democrats voted against citizenship verification amendments, will be foisted on taxpayers who've already suffered far too much damage from the illegal invasion of America. This and the certainly unconstitutional mandate to buy healthcare coverage or face big fines and/or jailtime are the cappers for what is not true reform but a virtual takeover of the healthcare industry.

We need healthcare reform but we don't need this. The Democrats ignored the wishes of most constituents and plowed ahead with their agenda. This indeed will cost them bigtime at the polls next fall, though I doubt Pelosi and Reid care since it will be extremely hard for the GOP to undo this mess even if it can regain control of Congress. And the so-called "bluedog conservative" Democrats proved they were really yellowdogs, knuckling under as soon as the leadership met their "price" with the appropriate bribe to get them onboard. This is dirtbag government again, no less reprehensible than when Dubya and the GOP steamrolled over Dem objections to his policies. If this is "the most ethical" Congress Pelosi promised back in '06, I'd be happy to take back an older one in its place. If this is the "Change You Can Believe In", Obama promised in his campaign, then believe us citizens will be subjugated to a Socialist agenda like we've never before seen in this country. And this is only the beginning, since Democrats are about to spring the next big Amnesty push for illegal aliens on us. Falcon, even if you will defend the Healthcare bill on most levels, can you say you're onboard with that next plan?
 
D L X
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:44 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
But then the Dems gon't give a sh%t about the Constitution anyway...

Dude, get off your holier than thou kick on this one. You as a Republican have absolutely no standing to say that the other side doesn't care about the constitution.

Your other points are fine for intellectual debate, but this one strains credulity.
 
Flighty
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:44 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

Cost of the GOP plan - virtually Zero.

To me, the most exciting part of health reform is the opportunity to slash costs by a HUGE percentage overall. It would mean we can take more vacations, spend more time with family, or have more money. Instead of the medical and pharma-masters stealing 30%, 40% and finally over 50% of our money.

The Democrats are going in the wrong direction on this. They are spending even more money, when money was the whole problem. Otherwise our medical system is fine if you don't count unfair klepto-insurance nonsense and the overall cost of the larceny involved in hospitals and corporations, who literally feed off the dead and the dying.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:55 am



Quoting AvObserver (Reply 22):
Yes, the GOP dropped the ball on reform when they had power

You have to pick the ball up first to drop it. They were too busy giving out tax cuts to the richest Americans while sending off many poor Americans to fight an unnecessary war in Iraq.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Ken777
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:00 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
They don't care they can cue up the "we inherited a mess" soundbyte they will be using right up until they lose a ton of seats this Nov and until Nov 2012 when Obama is shown the door.

I think the Great Recession is sufficient to justify that sound byte. No telling what the voters will do, but I highly doubt that the Republicans will go back to pre-reform times if they do get office.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
However that still does not answer the constitutional challenge. This bill is clearly unconstitutional, and an amendment must be proposed.

No doubt there will be some Republican/Conservative lawyers who will want to challenge the law in court. And there is some super rich dud (in Texas, I believe) who has been running anti reform commercials for a while. No doubt he'll pick up that legal tab.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
We, the American people, do not want more of our money being sucked up into the federal government. Enough is enough! Stop the spending!

And people & companies who have been hit hard with premium increases do not want any more of our money being sucked up by private health insurance companies who only care about eliminating "risks" - which means people who have been, or may get, sick. Enough is Enough!

Quoting Gatorfan (Reply 13):
What people don't realize is that by forcing the insurance companies to pay out 80% of their premium dollars on an annual basis, they can't build any equity reserve, plus fund capital acquisitions, plus provide a return to shareholders. This limit is a backdoor nationalization. The private companies will go bankrupt, be bailed out and nationalized.

There are some pretty good insurance companies that already deliver profits at 80% and higher. Then there are some who cut that down to the 60% range. Who would you rather have your policy with?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
They should have defined a specific minimal insurance package which all people should have,

That would work well it we had something like a modified Aussie system where core care was covered by a tax. Then insurance companies could be very competitive with premiums that are a fraction of what they are now.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 15):
one thing for sure its 3 trillion dollars worth of cash out of our children's economy

The long term estimate for costs related to the Iraq War is also around $3 trillion. How much does that bother you? Your kids, grandkids and great grandkids are going to be paying out over the next 70 or so years because of Bush, Cheney and the WMD that were not really there.

And you're complaining about taking care of the people in this country?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 16):
Sound familiar?

Yep. My health insurance premiums doubled in the first 4 years of Bush/Cheney. But then my insurance company was just faster than others - they sure couldn't pass the 80% rule.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 22):
Without tort reform in the process and a virtual lockout of the GOP in the planning, this is partisan politics at its worst.

]

Tort reform is the big red flag for me. If they are considering the "patient" when calling for tort reform then lets see them add standards of care to match. Let's make it easy to pull the license of a doctor that practices bad medicine. And require more training for those that simply fall behind.

You're not going to see that though. It's all about money for the insurance companies. That is why you will not see any price cuts in Texas where they did get tort reform.

Oklahoma has also passed tort reform at some levels and I doubt seriously if I'll see price drops. Actually I just had a sleep study and one look at the bill makes it clear to me that there is no benefit for the patient from that "reform". But then we do have one insurance commissioner serving some time in the state prison system.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 22):
The mad rush to throw any sort of bill together to make the holiday recess is blatantly irresponsible

It would have been passed already if there hadn't been the roadblocks tossed up by the Republicans. Health care reform has decades of debate and discussions behind it. Now is the time to move, or it will be as much a reality as WMD in Iraq.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 22):
The Democrats ignored the wishes of most constituents and plowed ahead with their agenda.

While most people indicate that they are happy with the insurance they have they have also said that health insurance should be available to everyone, even if it means a public option.

You need to split out the two issues in order to understand what Americans will accept.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:09 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 15):
one thing for sure its 3 trillion dollars worth of cash out of our children's economy

The long term estimate for costs related to the Iraq War is also around $3 trillion. How much does that bother you?

Killing Saddam was worth those trillions, don't you know that? But saving Americans who don't currently have health care? Those people aren't constituents of the GOP, so who gives a shit about them? (dripping with sarcasm, thank you).
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
usair320
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:25 am



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

It really is a good question. I read around 100 or so pages of both bills and the GOP bill seems to be the one aimed at lowering costs for all Americans rather than increasing taxes and dramaticly increasing expensive regulations. The induvidual mandate will end up coting the gov't billions we don't have because of all of the subsidies they will have to give out. It is a mild improvement over the house bill that created a new entitlement (Public option) , but is still a costly bill that will ultimately drive up the costs of health insurance.

As a Republican I am extremely dissapointed with the way congressional Republicans acted during the Bush years. They spent like Democrats, got us into a needless war in Iraq, and increased the size of government. Had they acted the way they did when Clinton was president than I do not beleve we would be in this fiscal trainwreck today.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:04 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
And if if does work, and things get better

It wont get better.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
then what will you say?

I told you so.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
As for me, I'm not worried about my health insurance. I'm really not.

I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune when your premiums go up because you now have to also pay for all the people who don't have insurance. Don't believe me? Thats exactly what happened to me here in MA. Before state mandated insurance, my premium to see my regular doctor was $10. Its now $25 just to walk in the door.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:32 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 29):
I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune when your premiums go up because you now have to also pay for all the people who don't have insurance.

You are already paying for all the people who don't have insurance. If an uninsured person gets sick, rather than going to the doctor's office for care, they wait until their condition worsens, then show up at an emergency room for treatment. That treatment costs exponentially more, and when they can't pay and don't have insurance, the hospital eats that cost, and passes it along to the rest of us, either through higher charges (which your insurance ends up paying) or in the case of public hospitals, higher taxes. I guess we could solve that problem by just leaving those people to die...
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AGM100
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:51 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
We'll see how it shakes out in a few years, dude. And if if does work, and things get better, then what will you say?

They wont.... the only highlight of this is that 30 million people will now have to buy "health insurance" . 30 million people added to the system .... how in the world could that help?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
And you're complaining about taking care of the people in this country?

Ya ...because its not the governments job to take care of me. Its my job ... and that is the way it works .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Americans who don't currently have health care?

There is not one American who does not have health care or can not get it ..... this is all about non Americans .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Cadet57
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:51 pm



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 30):
I guess we could solve that problem by just leaving those people to die...

 sarcastic  typical response really. Look, I understand and accept these people go to the er. And I am all for providing people with a basic level of care. But at what cost do we say enough? Why should I be paying for someone else's care? I shouldn't. Why should my insurance premiums go up to support someone else? But like my analogy to Falcon, my insurance costs have more than doubled since our state mandated everyone have health insurance.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
AGM100
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 32):
Falcon, my insurance costs have more than doubled since our state mandated everyone have health insurance.

No they will triple because its mandated to have insurance now..... I hope they did something in the bill to open the market up to competition for insurance companies . If they didn't .... my costs will triple by next year. Thanks government !? Harry Reid ....what a fooleo stooge.

And by the way , sure glad Nelson voted for it ... Didn't want to see Offut AFB closed down by Rham and gangsters
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Falcon84
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:24 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 29):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
And if if does work, and things get better

It wont get better.

Stop avoiding the qeustion, and just answer it. The fact is, you WANT it not to get better, don't you? You'd rather put your partisan rantings ahead of the nation, wouldn't you?

Look, even as much as I was against the war in Iraq, once we were in there, I wanted to see us in and out ouf there as fast and as successfully as we could. I didn't care then who ordered our troops in, I wanted them to win. Seems like, in another arena, you don't have the capacity to do the same, do you?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 29):
I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune when your premiums go up because you now have to also pay for all the people

Premiums have been going up FOR YEARS! Did that slip your mind? Mine have gone up over the years. But now, if they go up even a penny, you'll scream and yell at the Dems, won't you?

Newsflash: premiums will go up no matter what kind of deal is made. It's called, at the very least, adjusting for inflation. So, that's about as empty a sentence as you'll hear on this thread. It means nothing.
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seb146
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:42 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
the Dems gon't give a sh%t about the Constitution anyway...

Unlike wiretapping and data mining, which are perfectly within the limits of the Constitution....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
This bill is clearly unconstitutional, and an amendment must be proposed.

How? Because, according to the GOP, businesses are people?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
sure glad Nelson voted for it ... Didn't want to see Offut AFB closed down by Rham and gangsters

Uh-huh.... The same things were said when Lieberman abandonded the Deomcratic party. Even the Democrats of Connecticut told him in the primaries they didn't care for him; that they wanted a Democrat. But, the national GOP told him "Stand with us or lose your submarine base." That was acceptable. Double standards is all I can say.
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Ken777
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:44 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 31):
Ya ...because its not the governments job to take care of me. Its my job ... and that is the way it works .

That works as long as nothing happen to you that makes it impossible for you to take care of yourself or your family. Classic example was a friend who was in an auto accident on a business trip, Became a quad and had the basic battle with the insurance company. They took such good care of him that he was going to have to move to Puerto Rico in order to financially survive.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 31):
There is not one American who does not have health care or can not get it .....

Just because anyone can walk into an ER and get the most expensive care available - when a simple office visit could have taken care of a problem earlier, easier and far cheaper. We have some really queer approaches to health care and that is at the top of the list.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 32):
But at what cost do we say enough?

Or, looking at the other side of the coin, at what increase in private premiums do people (or employers) say "enough"?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 32):
But like my analogy to Falcon, my insurance costs have more than doubled since our state mandated everyone have health insurance.

You're not alone in having premiums doubled? Happened throughout the Bush/Cheney years. And if McCain/Palin had won it would continued on the same inflation rates that it had under Bush/Cheney.

There is no way the Republicans would have changed the rate of medical inflation - not with their Sugar Daddy insurance companies riding so high on it.
 
usair320
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:41 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 32):
typical response really. Look, I understand and accept these people go to the er. And I am all for providing people with a basic level of care. But at what cost do we say enough? Why should I be paying for someone else's care? I shouldn't. Why should my insurance premiums go up to support someone else? But like my analogy to Falcon, my insurance costs have more than doubled since our state mandated everyone have health insurance.

Don't you just get sick of their talking points? Instead of debating their point of view they repeat what Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow tell them. I'll give them this that many on the right repeat Hannity talking ponts (I personally don't watch the talking head shows on any network), but Olbermann is really nothing more than the Hannity of the left....

By the way are you a Romney care victim in Mass.? My aunt lives up in Pittsfield and not only has she been forced to discontinue her health plan for her small business, but she say's the plan has ruined the state fiscally.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 35):
Uh-huh.... The same things were said when Lieberman abandonded the Deomcratic party. Even the Democrats of Connecticut told him in the primaries they didn't care for him; that they wanted a Democrat. But, the national GOP told him "Stand with us or lose your submarine base." That was acceptable. Double standards is all I can say.

Just how partisan are you???
Let's reword what you said. Both parties suck and are corrupt by power. I always hear you whine and cry about the GOP, but when you're own party screws up you seem to stay silent........
 Yeah sure
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:14 pm



Quoting Usair320 (Reply 37):
Just how partisan are you???

The whole dam thing in a nutshell and why we cannot get anything done, both sides guilty.

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 37):
Both parties suck and are corrupt by power



Anyone who does not realize and accept this as true are fools, and the root cause of our troubles. Vote the bums out, do not cry and then vote for them because of partisanship. Think!!
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
dxing
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform. They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one

Considering that a majority of Americans who are polled on the basics of this plan don't like it and think it costs too much, that is anything but assured. Then there are the polls on individual politicians up for election. Reid is in trouble, big trouble, his own son has bailed on supportig him. That's just one of several seats that may turn and would probably turn if the election were held today. Then you have a number of House members retiring in seats that could easily go red as the districts are conservative leaning. It won't be the landslide of '94 but the GOP will pick up seats. Hopefully it will make the Senate a place where a fillibuster can stop this kind of bad law making.

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
Can you tell my why that was?

Because the GOP never had a 60 seat majority. Plus the GOP leadership never went after family members, offered what are essentially bribes to their own party members, threatened to help a recall campaign to have them ousted if they didn't play ball, or threatened to see about closing a big military base if a member didn't come round. This legislation has contained some of the dirtiest tricks I think I've ever seen. Pelosi, Reid, Emanuel, and the President have all had their hand in doing any underhanded thing necessary to get this ridiculous bill passed. The interesting thing is that the bill does not contain the language that the President went before a joint session of Congress and said he had to see before he would sign it. It also costs more than he said he would sign, and has not come across his desk in anywhere near the time frame he demanded.

With the vote on Christmas Eve our nation will have effectively become a national welfare state. No longer will personal responsibility be something to strive for. Why bother when the government will take care of you? What's the point of working hard when it only means that the government gets a larger and larger share of what you earn? The only question that remains is how long your elected leaders can continue to fool you that there is actually money to pay for this year after year without having to seize more and more of your money in the form of taxes. Several threads have been started in the past few years wondering how the United States downfall would occur. The question has been answered and you're looking at it. It's a sad day, on the order of finding out a loved one is terminally ill and nothing can be done.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:51 pm

I would think that when this plan turns into a disaster, the Republicans ater winning the White House and congress in a landslide, which no doubt will give them a 60 vote majority in the Senate and control of the house, can then modify the plan to fit their ideas. Nothing is written in stone as we found out when the Republicans controlled the government. Is that not how our system works?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:00 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
To me, the most exciting part of health reform is the opportunity to slash costs by a HUGE percentage overall. It would mean we can take more vacations, spend more time with family, or have more money. Instead of the medical and pharma-masters stealing 30%, 40% and finally over 50% of our money.

First of all, I thought the way to do that was to get a better education, work harder, or get a better job. The times, they are a-changin', I guess...

Sure, we can slash healthcare costs. But look at the complete disaster of state-level healthcare reform and show me how the federal government will do any better at all.

TennCare is an absolute mess. Started by a (gasp) Republican as basically an extension of Medicare to those unable to afford private insurance (ring any bells?), it was designed from the start to be completely budget-neutral. In the past few years, costs have ballooned 400% for the same basic levels of coverage. Three hundred thousand people were slashed from the roster in recent years in attempts to rein in costs (by our Democrat governor nonetheless). Within five years of its inception, TennCare accounted for a third of the state's budget and just about bankrupted the state. My sales tax is 9.5%; there's no income tax on wages currently but that's about to change because there's just no money to pay for all of this.

What started out as a decent idea with good intentions has turned into a nightmare. Defying the logic used to garner support for TennCare, ER visits skyrocketed after it was enacted. Why wouldn't they? They weren't forced to go to private practices for everyday problems, they just went to the ER and billed it to TennCare. Prescription drug abuse has escalated as a result of more freely available medication as well. It's a real kick in the pants to watch people roll-up to the drive-in window in a brand new BMW 5er and hand the pharmacist a TennCare card.

Has it helped people? Sure it has. But it's rife with abuse and inefficiency, and I'd say it's only "really" helped a tiny fraction of people who need it.

And that's not the only example by any means. Romney Care is dragging Massachusetts into financial ruin, and San Francisco (which throws MASSIVE amounts of money at problems for very little improvement) is leading the state of California into insolvency.

Once again: This bill is a turd--full of bribes, pork (thanks Mary Landrieu), and no clear direction. If you want to pass healthcare reform, that's fine, but the only reason they're rushing is because EVERYONE knows this bill's a turd and the longer the debate, the more support will wane.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

not raising taxes to pay for two wars...priceless.
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:42 pm

The bill is nothing now.....
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Dreadnought
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:08 pm



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 43):
The bill is nothing now.....

It still costs a bomb

SEN. KENT CONRAD (D-ND): “Look, no legislation is perfect but this bill is a very significant advance to address health care reform. The fact is it reduces the deficit in the first ten years by $130 billion. In the second ten years by $1.3 trillion.” (Fox News’ “Fox News Sunday,” 12/20/09)

So it is budget positive with 10 years of taxes and only 6 years of benefits, and then in the second decade, it adds on average $130 billion to the deficit in spite of all the tax increases.

So it only will cover half or less of the current uninsured, raises the cost of health care on just about everyone, and still manages to be a make the deficit far worse.

Good Job!

Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
D L X
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:09 pm



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 41):
I thought the way to do that was to get a better education, work harder, or get a better job.

Nah, that stuff just makes you a liberal elitist.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:31 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 32):
Why should my insurance premiums go up to support someone else?

The CBO says you're wrong--the current plan is not expected to increase premiums for most Americans. There's two factors at work here that mostly cancel each other out. Yes, the prohibition on discriminating based on preexisting conditions will force insurers to cover more high-risk individuals, which would increase premiums. On the other hand, the individual mandate would force many healthy individuals to buy health insurance. Adding healthy people to the pool lowers premiums. For the most part, these cancel out. The only group the CBO predicts will see increased premiums are individuals who do not get health care through their employer (who would have to buy individual insurance), and who make more than the cap for receiving federal subsidies (currently 350% of the poverty line, or $77,000 a year). This accounts for only about 9 percent of Americans. On the other hand, the typical individual plan under the new bill will cover more than the current typical individual plan, so much of the increase in premiums will be due to better coverage.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/107xx/doc10781/11-30-Premiums.pdf
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
D L X
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:51 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
SEN. KENT CONRAD (D-ND): “Look, no legislation is perfect but this bill is a very significant advance to address health care reform. The fact is it reduces the deficit in the first ten years by $130 billion. In the second ten years by $1.3 trillion.” (Fox News’ “Fox News Sunday,” 12/20/09)

So it is budget positive with 10 years of taxes and only 6 years of benefits, and then in the second decade, it adds on average $130 billion to the deficit in spite of all the tax increases.

That is not what Conrad is saying. He said in 10 years, it will reduce the deficit by $130B. In 20, it will have reduced it by $1.3 Trillion. I'm not sure how you got that it adds to the deficit in the second ten years.

Also, your knock that it is only budget positive in 10 years of taxes with 6 years of benefits could greatly be expanded to 100 years of taxes and 96 years of benefits. Just like building a road, there are startup costs to everything before you see benefits. Obviously, that would be a poor reason not to do something.

Don't ya think? I mean, speaking like an economist, it makes sense to me.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:26 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
I would think that when this plan turns into a disaster, the Republicans ater winning the White House and congress in a landslide, which no doubt will give them a 60 vote majority in the Senate and control of the house, can then modify the plan to fit their ideas. Nothing is written in stone as we found out when the Republicans controlled the government. Is that not how our system works?

 rotfl   rotfl 

Talk about a pie in the sky scenario! That's based on a lot of "what if's", and also on the earnest hope from you, that it does fail. Will it solve all the healthcare problems? I doubt it. But I don't think it'll be the outright disaster that the righties on here are praying for. And, yes, righties, that IS what you are praying for. You are putting your party politics before the nation, as usual.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care

Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:52 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 47):
That is not what Conrad is saying. He said in 10 years, it will reduce the deficit by $130B. In 20, it will have reduced it by $1.3 Trillion. I'm not sure how you got that it adds to the deficit in the second ten years.

My mistake - I read his quote wrong. However That just makes what he says even more nonsense.

If the GOP runs in 2010 and 2012 on a platform of repealing this bill and replacing it with something better I think they could win by a landslide (if they are believable, that is).
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.

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