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DocLightning
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A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:32 am

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12...-christmas-will-it-include-church/

Looks like the Obamas haven't chosen a new church. In fact, they really haven't been to church since they got to Washington. They've gone to some services at Camp David, but none in Washington.

I, for one, have always suspected that Obama is an agnostic/atheist who has to play the good Christian for the sake of his career. That's sad because the Constitution says that no test of religion is required to assume a public office. Yet just try to get an open atheist elected, or even a Unitarian. Nope. Every single President except JFK identified as Protestant. But I don't believe for a second that Obama is a devout Christian.

I can see this becoming another political vulnerability, though. He spoke about his faith a lot during his campaign. Now, most reasonable people understand that faith and church have about as much to do with each-other as oak trees and fruit flies, but if you're out to skewer the man, here's a chink in his armor.

While I predict some Conservative backlash, the irony is that in recent history the most regular churchgoers were Carter and Clinton. Neither Bush was a regular. I don't know about Reagan.

Thoughts?
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BMI727
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:40 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Looks like the Obamas haven't chosen a new church. In fact, they really haven't been to church since they got to Washington. They've gone to some services at Camp David, but none in Washington

Heck I don't care.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Every single President except JFK identified as Protestant.

Even some people then worried about JFK taking orders from the Pope.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
While I predict some Conservative backlash,

Those idiots are still convinced that he is a Muslim anyway.
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futurepilot16
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:42 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I, for one, have always suspected that Obama is an agnostic/atheist

What proof do you have for even thinking this?

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Looks like the Obamas haven't chosen a new church.

Furthermore, who cares? If I found out tomorrow that Obama was an agnostic, I could care less. I would care more about the situation of the country rather than what his family does on sunday morning. Conservatives are all nuts if they believe religion should be mixed with politics. We can look at Iran and see how much good it's done with them. My family is Christian and my father would be the first to tell you that a man can have a relationship with god without being in church 24-7, as conservatives expect Obama to be.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
LAXintl
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:55 am

Well I suppose this is just yet another thing about the President that turns out so different then appearances or promises on the campaign trail.

I always had my doubts since the Chicago Trinity United Church flap which to me is a racist and Anti-American church and where he called Rev. Wright his "spiritual leader and great friend". His follow up sound bites that he would be "guided by his Christian faith" and his "belief in the power of prayer." rang hallow to me.

But what is ironic here is the slap in the face to many of America's inner city churches that very actively drummed up individual donations for him from members under the guise that the man was a good Christian. I would have taught he would have paid back to homage by attending church around the country as he travels, or the very least regularly in D.C.

Anyhow, the man will be judged at the appropriate time, including at re-election time.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:58 am

I'm a social liberal, fiscal conservative. I could honestly care less whether the guy goes to church on sunday. While I disagree with the execution, his effort to provide ALL US citizens with health insurance is noble. That is what it means to 'do God's work.' Showing up for church on Sunday but running away from a soup kitchen is not.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:09 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Even some people then worried about JFK taking orders from the Pope.

As opposed to Reverend Smith?
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:32 am

I could've sworn that was the irony behind Ronnie Raygun's diddlefest with the social conservatives.......he was not a regular churchgoer by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:34 am



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 2):

What proof do you have for even thinking this?

I have none, which is why I used the word "suspect." But the fact that he rarely goes to church is one tip-off. And the fact that he's rarely ever discussed matters of faith after the election is another.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 2):
If I found out tomorrow that Obama was an agnostic, I could care less.

Actually, I'd be relieved. I'd much rather have a man in charge who is a critical thinker than one who has "faith," which means (by definition) that you believe things without any proof.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:35 pm

I have not actually sat in a pew and listened to a sermon for about a year. Maybe more. Does that not make me a Christian? Not in my mind. Just because a person does not attend services does not mean they have given up on their faith. During the whole Rev. Wright thing, I was trying to ask the right when the last time Obama was actually in the services in Chicago. That didn't matter to them. So, this shouldn't either. What I think will happen is the "religious" Right will have a field day with this. Even pointing out that Bush was rarely seen in church, it won't matter to them. This is yet another thing to blame Obama for and why their party should be the only party allowed.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:28 pm

His beliefs are entirely his own business, and not really anybody else's. I don't think anyone has the right to question someone's beliefs. I think it's also worth pointing out that some people are Christians, yet don't go to Church. I am also one of those people.

On a side note, "I could care less" implies that you care somewhat. I think the correct phrase is "I couldn't care less". Normally I wouldn't say anything, but given that both phrases are complete opposites, I think it's worth pointing out in this case.

Rich
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:34 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Actually, I'd be relieved. I'd much rather have a man in charge who is a critical thinker than one who has "faith," which means (by definition) that you believe things without any proof.

As would I. A lot of people though one of the reason behind GWB invading Iraq had to do with striking the first blow for the war during Armageddon.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:41 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 10):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Actually, I'd be relieved. I'd much rather have a man in charge who is a critical thinker than one who has "faith," which means (by definition) that you believe things without any proof.

As would I. A lot of people though one of the reason behind GWB invading Iraq had to do with striking the first blow for the war during Armageddon.

Tony Blair openly admits he prayed to god when deciding whether to Invade Iraw. No doubt GWB had similar divine persuasion.

I'd be impressed if Obama was an Atheist. Is it still the case that Pete Stark is the only national lawmaker "out of the closet"? There are a lot of folks lieing between those two houses... It's a shame it has to be that way.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:48 pm

Actually, I have much higher trust in someone religious (does not matter the religion) then someone that professes to be agnostic or atheist.

Atleast with a religious person you can be better assured they likely posses some underpinnings which faith has instilled on them versus an atheist where you simply cannot count on which way they might act or where they might come from as their belief's have not been centered in faith.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:35 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

I don't care that he doesn't go to church. I am a Republican, and I haven't been to church in 17 years. I hate him for a long list of other things.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:47 pm

Doc, maybe you should have said "the Religious Right" in your thread title rather than "conservatives."

Plenty of us who support lower tax burdens, market-based economies, and states' rights could care less about where or whether the Prez goes to church.

[Edited 2009-12-27 11:03:29]
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:51 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Atleast with a religious person you can be better assured they likely posses some underpinnings which faith has instilled on them versus an atheist where you simply cannot count on which way they might act or where they might come from as their belief's have not been centered in faith.

So, you trust faithful because you feel they are more predictable? Because I bet there are fewer atheist mass murderers than religious ones. It's a double edged sword - much evil has been done in an attempt to please God. Many "mistakes were made" while following what some believed was God's plan.

And last I checked, atheists don't shed morality just because they do not believe in God. As a Catholic, I hope they find Him, but I know that suggesting they lack moral underpinnings is not a sound way to convince them.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 13):
I hate him for a long list of other things.

Wow. Such a strong word. I believe you when you say you don't go to church.  Wink
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:57 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Actually, I have much higher trust in someone religious (does not matter the religion) then someone that professes to be agnostic or atheist



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Actually, I'd be relieved. I'd much rather have a man in charge who is a critical thinker than one who has "faith," which means (by definition) that you believe things without any proof.

I don't think that it makes a difference either way. Being an atheist does not make one smarter or a better thinker and being religious does not make one more trustworthy.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:08 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
I don't think that it makes a difference either way. Being an atheist does not make one smarter or a better thinker and being religious does not make one more trustworthy.

 checkmark 

But somehow, I think even the Republicans who have stated that they didn't care on this thread will agree that many others in their party will have serious issues with it.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:12 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Actually, I'd be relieved. I'd much rather have a man in charge who is a critical thinker than one who has "faith," which means (by definition) that you believe things without any proof.

Wow. So, in your narrowminded (gee, does that sound familiar?  scratchchin  Wink view, Christians are incapable of critical thinking and rational thought? What a bigot you are. I find that quite ironic from someone who blathers on quite loudly about injustice...someone who claims to be so "progressive"...

Just because Christians seek guidance from God for tough decisions doesn't mean--at ALL--that we just rely willy-nilly into the wind on the first thing that pops into our heads and call it "God's Will." God's "will" is for us to make our own decisions based on the best interest of everyone. And he gives that to us freely.

So I may pray to God for guidance on a tough project at the office, but the ultimate decision falls to me. It doesn't convolute my decision-making process. I don't sit around waiting on what God tells me to do, and for you to insinuate that is a grave insult to not only me but to all Christians.

Your bigoted views really just highlight your basic dearth of knowledge on "faith." I'm sorry religion seems to have failed you so badly. But your pseudo-elitism as an "enlightened" soul is nauseating.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:22 pm



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 4):
I could honestly care less whether the guy goes to church

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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:25 pm

I don't give a crap about the church thing ... but do you have to go to a church that calls my country the US of KKKA ? Of all the churches ..he chose that one ?
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:29 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
While I predict some Conservative backlash,

As do I though I think a lot of people would be very well served by heeding the following:

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 8):
Just because a person does not attend services does not mean they have given up on their faith.

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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:29 pm



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 18):
I don't sit around waiting on what God tells me to do

While I largely agree with your post, I have to also force you to be fair. Do you honestly not know anyone that sits around waiting on God to tell him or her what to do? I sure do. I know plenty of people that in my view misinterpret the teachings of most holy books by waiting around for God to do things for them, and taking a hands-off view of how to live their lives. They say things like "if God meant it to be, it will happen" Or, "my God will save me." It is a failure of recognizing that God may have given you the tools (your noggin!) to get out of a jam on your own, and I'm sure that failing is what DocLightning (from what I can tell, a non-religious man) latches onto because he, like me, has heard people say "Jesus take the wheel."
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:31 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
But somehow, I think even the Republicans who have stated that they didn't care on this thread will agree that many others in their party will have serious issues with it.

I do agree with this. There are some "thumpers" out there who would go absolutely ballistic and start throwing around words like "unchurched," "unclean," "possessed" etc. But that's a fringe (vocal) minority.

I likely wouldn't vote for an avowed atheist for mostly political reasons. Why would I vote for someone that had no impetus for defending my point of view?

As a Christian, I would like my President to be the same. However I keep myself grounded in the reality that EVERY move a President (or any politican) makes is calculated politically. And that includes going to church...or not.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:43 pm

Quoting RichM (Reply 9):

On a side note, "I could care less" implies that you care somewhat. I think the correct phrase is "I couldn't care less". Normally I wouldn't say anything, but given that both phrases are complete opposites, I think it's worth pointing out in this case.

OT, but I looked it up once. Although they would seem to be opposites, both phrases are commonly accepted as synonymous.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 18):

Wow. So, in your narrowminded (gee, does that sound familiar? scratchchin Wink view, Christians are incapable of critical thinking and rational thought?

Actually, I didn't say that. But it is not my opinion that "belief" necessarily means that reason and evidence must be ignored. That is actually the official definition of the word. If you "believe" something, that means you accept it as a truth without evidence.

Yes, I do mistrust organized religion and its devout followers for that very reason. If your worldview depends on the discounting of facts, then your behavior may be very unpredictable. And that is exactly what we've seen with religious extremism over and over and over again.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 18):

Just because Christians seek guidance from God for tough decisions doesn't mean--at ALL--that we just rely willy-nilly into the wind on the first thing that pops into our heads and call it "God's Will."

Really? Then why does the same God say different things to different People? Who is correct? Reverend Phelps? The Pope? Paula White? Billy Graham? God has told each of them very different things, if you listen to them. I remember a girl in high school who got a bunch of tattoos because God told her to... and then got them lasered off because God told her to. And became a born-again virgin because God told her to... and then -get this- got pregnant because God told her to. In fact, God told her that she was carrying the Messiah. Apparently, God changed his mind one more time because she miscarried.

You and I might say she's crazy, but the problem with God is that he never seems to speak in a fully objective way. The question I always put to believers is: "If he's so powerful and loving, why doesn't he just put an end to all the confusion and come down here and set us all straight?" Nobody's ever been able to give me a satisfactory answer other than something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways."

To quote Susan B. Anthony: "I mistrust those who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice how it always coincides with their own desires."

Does it mean that all religious people are incapable of rational and logical thought? Of course not. But when it comes to matters of faith and belief, they must eschew logic and reason by the very definition of those words.

And so no, I'm not a bigot. Why? Because you choose to be a Christian. You are quite free to walk into your church and tell your pastor to strike your name from the rolls. Bigotry, in my opinion, applies to people who hate others based on inherent traits over which they have no control, like race/ethnicity, sex, nationality, sexual orientation, etc.

Maybe it's because I'm a gay Jew, but I have suffered more discrimination, more bigotry, more restriction on my personal freedoms, more harm done to society based on the actions of various religions than any other cause. Whether it's Islamist extremists blowing up planes or Christians working diligently to ensure that I can't marry my partner or adopt children, or the assholes in middle school who branded themselves skinheads and slammed my nose into a locker for being a "Kike," everywhere I turn there is a religion seeking to harm me, restrict me, take something from me, and above all else, convert me.

I have my spirituality. I've seen things that are not explainable by science and I have truly felt the Divine Presence on many occasions in my life. But never once has it happened in a house of worship.

[Edited 2009-12-27 11:47:30]
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Ken777
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:45 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the Secret Service and DC Police (especially the Traffic Division) were not exceptionally appreciative that the family was not traveling every Sunday to church. How many security and traffic personnel would be required, and how may family cars would be inconvenienced?

And the other security issue would be the pattern established by going to church every Sunday. The Secret Service would be very strongly agains setting up a weekly travel schedule using cars.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:55 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
While I largely agree with your post, I have to also force you to be fair. Do you honestly not know anyone that sits around waiting on God to tell him or her what to do? I sure do. I know plenty of people that in my view misinterpret the teachings of most holy books by waiting around for God to do things for them, and taking a hands-off view of how to live their lives. They say things like "if God meant it to be, it will happen" Or, "my God will save me." It is a failure of recognizing that God may have given you the tools (your noggin!) to get out of a jam on your own, and I'm sure that failing is what DocLightning (from what I can tell, a non-religious man) latches onto because he, like me, has heard people say "Jesus take the wheel."

I certainly see your point there. I absolutely do know people who do exactly that. In my own experience, it's a minority of Christians...though an extremely vocal minority.

Most people I know who take that hands-off approach to God live in more impoverished areas, with poor education and menial (if any) jobs. These areas are plagued with thousands of "fire-and-brimstone" churches with pastors who would make Jonathan Edwards look like Mother Teresa. While I guess it's possible, I can't really see any important leader--let alone a president--ascend to power who (honestly) embraces those views. I don't view GWB as any particular intellectual, but I am 100% certain he didn't govern on what he thought God was telling him to do at the time. And I'm sure you can understand my anger at Doc's assumption that Christians are incapable of rational, independent thought.

In the immortal words of Jeff Foxworthy, "We just can't keep the most ignorant amongst us off the television."
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:04 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

I am a republican, who cares. Seperation of Church and State. What he does with his faith and religion does not mean anything to me about how he does his job as POTUS.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:06 pm



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 23):
I likely wouldn't vote for an avowed atheist for mostly political reasons. Why would I vote for someone that had no impetus for defending my point of view?

Well, now you're falling into the same trap that you accused DocLightning of. What makes you think that an atheist would not defend your right to be faithful?

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 23):
As a Christian, I would like my President to be the same.

Why?

I mean, I'm pretty sure you would not say that sentence if you substituted "Christian" with "White" or "Male" or "from Iowa" or whatever. I'd hope you'd want a president that correctly discharges his duties, and not one that you elect simply because he looks like you or does what you do on Sunday.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:12 pm

I have seen over the years folks who lie, cheat and steal, do drugs, drink and murder people (Mafia) go to church every week. Does going to church mean anything? Nothing as far as I can see. Hypocracy is alive and well among many church attendees and even by church officials themselves. Look a the religious terrorists at work, they are devout, making them nice people????? Sure!
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:26 pm



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 26):
And I'm sure you can understand my anger at Doc's assumption that Christians are incapable of rational, independent thought.

I don't mean to speak for Doc, but I don't think that he was saying that religious people are incapable of rational thought. It is the case, though, that the decision to believe in God is irrational--there's no proof of God's existence, and if you hold something to be true for which there is no evidence, that's irrational. There are plenty of Christians out there for whom the God question is the only topic where they do not apply reason/rationality, who use rationality in making their non-religious decisions. However, once an individual exempts some decisions from rationality, it becomes more likely that they will exempt other decisions from rationality.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:53 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 30):
However, once an individual exempts some decisions from rationality, it becomes more likely that they will exempt other decisions from rationality.

Decisions like... love?

Love is utterly irrational, and yet almost everyone on the planet does it. AND, Love makes many people do irrational things. Things like jumping into a freezing lake or a burning building when evidence exists that doing so is futile and will likely result in your own death or at least harm.

let's not pretend that people are rational creatures.  Wink
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:58 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
I have my spirituality. I've seen things that are not explainable by science and I have truly felt the Divine Presence on many occasions in my life. But never once has it happened in a house of worship.

Oh I guess yours is ok then? Jeez

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 18):
But your pseudo-elitism as an "enlightened" soul is nauseating

 checkmark 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:25 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Actually, I have much higher trust in someone religious (does not matter the religion) then someone that professes to be agnostic or atheist.

Atleast with a religious person you can be better assured they likely posses some underpinnings which faith has instilled on them versus an atheist where you simply cannot count on which way they might act or where they might come from as their belief's have not been centered in faith.

I have to disagree here...

Mistrust should be given to anyone who WEARS their religion, atheism, political affiliation, sexual orientation, race, etc on their SLEEVE.

I'll give equal trust to any of the above when first meeting them. BUT, if they represent PAC's, or want to spread hate, vitriol, or propoganda, while slamming the "other side", then they are indeed UNTRUSTWORTHY.

I need to point out, this applies not just in religion!

DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS are UNTRUSTWORTHY people...particularly their cheerleaders considering their intellectually DISHONEST bias!

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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:26 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
So, you trust faithful because you feel they are more predictable?

I have higher trust or respect for a God fearing person, one that knows that there is a higher power , and that man is mere mortal on this planet along with other creatures.

I would have fear of the potential boundless actions or decision making of a non God fearing person, one that would not have the knowledge or fear his actions would ultimately be judged by a higher authority.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 34):
I would have fear of the potential boundless actions or decision making of a non God fearing person, one that would not have the knowledge or fear his actions would ultimately be judged by a higher authority.

Well, I'd say even as a Christian, that thought is mighty ignorant. People who do not share your faith may nonetheless share your morals. There are an awful lot of atheist people in this country, and yet you don't see atheists going around killing people they don't like because they lack a "higher authority."
 
LAXintl
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:48 pm

Has nothing to do with Christianity. You could be Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist etc.
I just feel that a God fearing person, with some religious convictions who has that something watching over his shoulder to be higher certitude then the average non believing Dick, Tom or Harry.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:51 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
I mean, I'm pretty sure you would not say that sentence if you substituted "Christian" with "White" or "Male" or "from Iowa" or whatever.

Completely different categories D L X, and you know it. Someone does not choose if they are "white" or "male" or "tall" or whatever. But they do choose their faith and that, like it or not, is reason for many to determine characteristic qualities. Christianity is a set of values and beliefs.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 2):
My family is Christian and my father would be the first to tell you that a man can have a relationship with god without being in church 24-7, as conservatives expect Obama to be.

My, aren't we painting with a wide brush here. But I've come to expect nothing less from your posts so nothing new here.


The President going to church doesn't bother me. And I'm an economic conservative and social moderate. I haven't gone to church regularly since starting college. I go weekly when I'm home with my parents, although we now go to a Lutheran church instead of a Catholic one - long story. Personally I find church boring. With Catholic mass, I feel like I repeat prayers from memory and say them simply because I'm supposed to say them at that point in the mass, not because I'm actually praying to God for what that particular prayer is supposed to be praying for. I often find myself daydreaming off in the distance not paying attention to what's being said. I'm honest enough to know I'm not a "model" Christian but I wouldn't consider myself a bad one either.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
While I predict some Conservative backlash, the irony is that in recent history the most regular churchgoers were Carter and Clinton. Neither Bush was a regular. I don't know about Reagan.

Which probably means with the exception of the far-right wing base - which was never going to vote for Obama anyway - this will be a non-issue with most of center of the voting spectrum that decides the elections.

[Edited 2009-12-27 13:57:38]
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avek00
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:56 pm

I am a moderate-to-progressive Episcopalian, and tolerant and accepting as I am of diverse faith and spiritual viewpoints, I would NEVER knowingly vote for an atheist/agnostic. I don't trust power in the hands of a person who does not believe him or herself to be accountable to a higher being (bearing in mind that once you're high enough on the governmental food chain, only God Himself may ever know what you're really up to).
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:04 pm



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 38):
I am a moderate-to-progressive Episcopalian, and tolerant and accepting as I am of diverse faith and spiritual viewpoints, I would NEVER knowingly vote for an atheist/agnostic. I don't trust power in the hands of a person who does not believe him or herself to be accountable to a higher being (bearing in mind that once you're high enough on the governmental food chain, only God Himself may ever know what you're really up to).

Before the vehment anti-religion nut jobs queue up, I'm going to say this...

I'm Catholic, but an atheist President wouldn't bother me. The reason is that the President is accountable to the VOTERS. So long as this President safeguards my rights and does not interfere with them, I have no problem.

Also, I refer everyone to my first reply in this thread...

If he wears his atheism on his/her sleeve, then he is not worthy to be President...just like a person who wears their Christianity or Judaism on his/her sleeve.

The problem is, they all wear their political parties on their sleeves...and political partisans are the LEAST TRUSTWORTHY people out there.

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Yellowstone
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:05 pm



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 38):
I would NEVER knowingly vote for an atheist/agnostic. I don't trust power in the hands of a person who does not believe him or herself to be accountable to a higher being

I would think that the misdeeds of our various national politicians, all but one of whom have declared themselves to follow some religion or other, demonstrate that belief in God is no constraint on misusing power. If you want to do something bad enough (like, let's say, invading Iraq), you'll decide that God agrees with you. At least an agnostic or an atheist can't justify their actions by claiming divine sanction.

And anyway, an ethical agnostic would hold himself accountable to the rest of humanity for his actions. I'd much rather have a leader who asks what is best for humanity, rather than what God wants.
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:18 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 37):
Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
I mean, I'm pretty sure you would not say that sentence if you substituted "Christian" with "White" or "Male" or "from Iowa" or whatever.

Completely different categories D L X, and you know it. Someone does not choose if they are "white" or "male" or "tall" or whatever.

No, it's really not different at all because the poster I quoted said he wants his president to be of the same faith as he is, and if you are actually devout, you don't see your religion as a choice. In fact, the VAST majority of religious people inherited their religion from their parents, much like their race, their gender, and their being from Iowa. The subtle difference in that yes, a man CAN choose to stop practicing one faith and pick up a different one, does not alter the fact that the poster I am responding to is discriminating against someone for something that is for many, very central to their identity. More central than their race in many cases.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 37):
But they do choose their faith and that, like it or not, is reason for many to determine characteristic qualities.

I'd be MUCH wearier of a person that chooses his faith or lack of faith based on how he thinks another man will look at him for it. (Yes, that means I am weary of many politicians.)

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 37):
Christianity is a set of values and beliefs.

Okay, so what about that set of values is both a) exclusive to Christians, and b) required of the office? I'm sure that as a not very religious person, you would have to agree with me that your not being religious is a poor reason not to vote for you if your head is sound, your conviction is deep, and your policies are aligned with the voter.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 37):
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
While I predict some Conservative backlash, the irony is that in recent history the most regular churchgoers were Carter and Clinton. Neither Bush was a regular. I don't know about Reagan.

Which probably means with the exception of the far-right wing base - which was never going to vote for Obama anyway - this will be a non-issue with most of center of the voting spectrum that decides the elections.

I don't really think that's what it means. I think that the right gives Republicans a pass, unless they say they're something weird like Mormon. (And if it's not clear, I say that Mormonism is weird with tongue in cheek.) They scrutinize Democrats. It gives them something easy to latch on to.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 39):
I'm Catholic, but an atheist President wouldn't bother me. The reason is that the President is accountable to the VOTERS.

Exactly. Atheists don't need the presence of God to do the right thing. (And neither does this Catholic. I'd do the right thing even if God were not watching.)
 
seb146
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:11 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
I have my spirituality. I've seen things that are not explainable by science and I have truly felt the Divine Presence on many occasions in my life. But never once has it happened in a house of worship.

Oh I guess yours is ok then? Jeez

This is one thing I have never understood about people that are religious: They think that when person A has some kind of faith other than person B, then person A must be wrong because they are different. I am Christian. I have seen and experienced things I can not explain. But, because I was raised in the Church of God (Anderson) that does NOT make me less of a Christian than the Pope or Billy Graham or GWB or whoever. Even though Jews and Muslims have many differences, there are also many similarites in prophets and some doctrine. I don't look down on anyone practicing either of those religions nor do I look down on Catholics, Russian Orthodox, Mormons, Lutherans, and so forth. I feel bad for athiests, but I do not look down on them, either. I simply live my life the way I think God wants me to and pray they will open their heart and mind to, at least, have an honest discussion with me.
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D L X
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:33 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42):
This is one thing I have never understood about people that are religious: They think that when person A has some kind of faith other than person B, then person A must be wrong because they are different.

Some people. Definitely not all religious people.

For me, I'm fairly religious, but I also allow for the possibility that I am wrong, and I allow for the possibility that God has simply presented himself to people in the way they can best comprehend him.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:38 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I, for one, have always suspected that Obama is an agnostic/atheist who has to play the good Christian for the sake of his career.

c'mon, alot of politicians play the good Christian....their politicians....money and power can corrupt you....
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D L X
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:44 am



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 44):
c'mon, alot of politicians play the good Christian....their politicians....money and power can corrupt you....

Completely agree. Many politicians in power today are image manipulators, and nothing else. I would suspect that most of the congressmen that trumpet their faith haven't been to church in the last 6 months.

And I'm waiting for the day for a certain southern Senator who occasionally trumpets his faith is forced to come out of the closet. It will be a great day.
 
comorin
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:50 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
Quoting RichM (Reply 9):

On a side note, "I could care less" implies that you care somewhat. I think the correct phrase is "I couldn't care less". Normally I wouldn't say anything, but given that both phrases are complete opposites, I think it's worth pointing out in this case.

OT, but I looked it up once. Although they would seem to be opposites, both phrases are commonly accepted as synonymous.

'I couldn't care less' is the correct logical expression of the thought. 'I could care less' is colloquial usage - street talk.

Back to the main topic. The people who hate Obama don't need a reason, it's a visceral thing. Fear and loathing are two sides of the same coin.

To them, he stands for the collapse of The American Way and is The Beast Slouching its way towards Bethlehem. To his followers, he is like St. Patrick who will clear the land of evil serpents - a patron saint of our times.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:06 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 34):
I would have fear of the potential boundless actions or decision making of a non God fearing person, one that would not have the knowledge or fear his actions would ultimately be judged by a higher authority.

But you don't fear the 'potential boundless actions or decision making' of a god fearing person even though there is ample evidence to indicate that several god fearing people have made decisions that have caused untold loss of life and suffering? IMHO, there are bad apples in every bunch and I don't believe that people are more inclined to consider their actions simply because they believe in a higher power. History is just too rife with examples of horrendous actions undertaken by those professing a belief in a divine authority.
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BAKJet
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:16 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Every single President except JFK identified as Protestant.

Actually, there have been 4 Unitarian Presidents of the US; John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Millard Filmore and William Howard Taft. In addition, several Presidents of the US have had no public religious affiliation. These include, Thomas Jefferson (who is now commonly associated with the Unitarian Religion) , Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, Ullyses Grant and Rutherford Hayes.
 
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RE: A New Reason For Conservatives To Hate Obama

Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:32 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):

Oh I guess yours is ok then? Jeez

Mine is mine alone. If everyone kept their spirituality to themselves, perhaps there would be more harmony in the world.

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 48):
Actually, there have been 4 Unitarian Presidents of the US; John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Millard Filmore and William Howard Taft.

At that point, it could have been argued that Unitarianism was a branch of Protestantism. It wasn't really Unitarian Universalism until more recently.

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 48):
In addition, several Presidents of the US have had no public religious affiliation.

True, but they did come from Protestant families, if I'm not mistaken. And I don't think any of them ever renounced religion; they just let it quietly fade out of their lives.
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